EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?

[MTL Kyle]

I know alot about sm4sh and melee

If you call the game "Super Spacies Bros Marth" and don't remember that the best/2nd best player is a Peach main, you clearly don't know ****.

Game is not even out and you are saying that you understand about sm4sh but we don't, like... stop condescending dude.

 

[zoyy2007]

I know that the game looks and feels like Brawl from a competitive standpoint. Even playing less seriously Gamexplain have stated that too. It's an improved Brawl, that's fine for most people, but if you are playing seriously why not play Melee? What mechanic is at all catered to the competitive community that makes this game SOOO MUCH BETTER than melee?

It's neither melee or brawl,it's smash 4, it is its own game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you call the game "Super Spacies Bros Marth" and don't remember that the best/2nd best player is a Peach main, you clearly don't know ****.

Game is not even out and you are saying that you understand about sm4sh but we don't, like... stop condescending dude.

To be fair,


Usage Statistics#

Fox 2409

Marth 1841

Falco 1814

Fox makes up almost 20% of players in melee. and the top have, while diverse, really doesn't open up lower. MK might be broken as all hell but Brawl still had a lot more variance in terms of usage even with MK in the picture.

They are quite dominant in Melee and Peach really only gets main rep from Armada, and even he needs to switch to Young Link for Jiggs against Hungrybox.

 

[T44]

I feel like melee is the better choice for EVO, given it is established and has proven it draws a large crowd (of both competitive and causal viewers). Melee is at its peak right now, it's a sure bet that including it would be a success, whereas Sm4sh is more of a gamble.

 

[Diabolical]

It's neither melee or brawl,it's smash 4, it is its own game.

And it's not a good fighting game, at least not nearly on the level of Melee. I guess my opinion on this discussion is that anyone can play what ever game they want, but when you try to compare your game to the best, you better explain yourself. I also think Smash4 shouldn't be given any special treatment because it's new and has better graphics. The better fighting game with the most established competitive community should be in Evo - the largest and most prestigious fighting game tournament of the year

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know a lot about Melee, I don't know much about Smash4. That's why I ask this question. Quite a few people on this thread say it's better than Melee and I ask why? Are you guys trolls or is there a real mechanic that lends itself to fast, rewarding offensive play?

I don't need to worry about superfluous mechanics that really only serve to keep low-mid people out from playing it over actually adding depth to the game, L-Canceling. I don't need to worry that I'm gonna be punished for hitting someone, Crouch Canceling. I don't need to worry about facing the right direction when grabbing the ledge or playing on a stage that was janky BF like ledges.

 

[Diabolical]

I don't need to worry about superfluous mechanics that really only serve to keep low-mid people out from playing it over actually adding depth to the game, L-Canceling. I don't need to worry that I'm gonna be punished for hitting someone, Crouch Canceling. I don't need to worry about facing the right direction when grabbing the ledge or playing on a stage that was janky BF like ledges.

No johns mate, these excuses are poor in a competitive landscape. Also none of these are mechanics added to the game. They are things left out to make the possible decisions you make limited and ultimately make a shallow experience. Of course you can still have a competitive game that's not technical, but it's less about fighting and more about planning like Brawl. You may prefer that but it doesn't make it better than Melee as a fighter

 

[Zork]

Speaking of crouch cancelling it's probably the worst Melee mechanic by far. Probably the only really bad one. Just from a competitive perspective it makes no sense for moves to be punished on HIT. You get punished for landing a hit, just think about that for a second. It severely limits viable options at low percents. Which is ironic considering Melee players love to boast about the options the game provides.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No johns mate, these excuses are poor in a competitive landscape. Also none of these are mechanics added to the game. They are things left out to make the possible decisions you make limited and ultimately make a shallow experience. Of course you can still have a competitive game that's not technical, but it's less about fighting and more about planning like Brawl. You may prefer that but it doesn't make it better than Melee as a fighter

The deep choice of more or less lag, how deep a choice that is. essentially what L-canceling is. There is no choice, you just do it. This isn't like an EX meter when having a more powerful version or a move, including in most cases frame data, has an actual cost and choice to it. And even if it's there to promote more technical ability, what does it really add to gameplay? It makes the skill floor much higher without really adding anything of value to the skill ceiling. It's bad game design.

I'm not saying I promote planing or fighting over the other, I'm saying Melee has moments of bad game design which turn me off from it over Smash 4, and in turn Brawl is kinda equal to it in my eyes in terms of which I would play more of Melee or Brawl. Smash 4 I would play more so far from what I have played.

Crouch Canceling in reality limits offensive gameplay more than anything ad punishes you for making what should be a positive reward in the long run.

Smash has always been about being accessible, Melee is on a basic level, not on a competitive level at all because there is no way to learn A->B or way to figure it out. This is something PM actually has done a lot better and even Smash 4 is a lot better for helping people learn to play it better than Melee is.

Melee isn't a bad game at all, but when a lot of the these issues limit how many people I can get to playing the game. Then that is a real problem. Melee is not kind to someone trying to pick it up, this is something a lot of other fighters, not talking any other smash game here for this point, does a lot better.

 

[Diabolical]

Speaking of crouch cancelling it's probably the worst Melee mechanic by far. Probably the only really bad one. Just from a competitive perspective it makes no sense for moves to be punished on HIT. You get punished for landing a hit, just think about that for a second. It severely limits viable options at low percents. Which is ironic considering Melee players love to boast about the options the game provides.

Crouch canceling is at least a better mechanic than L-canceling. It gives options. There are some situations where you NEVER want to Crouch cancel (most notably Peaches Down smash). Overall Crouch canceling is part of Melee's Meta that does make it deeper, so it isn't something bad. The real worst mechanic in Melee I can think of is port Priority,

 

[Zork]

Port priority also exists in Brawl and it was extremely significant in some matchups in the game (Snake in particular). Now I'm curious if it also exists in Smash 4.

 

[Vaughngief]

Just put Smash 4 at Evo 2015. Melee isn't a bad game by any means, but give something new a chance. I don't care if Brawl was lack luster at tournament scenes. That was Brawl not Smash 4. Just because a game is slower and is more defensive doesn't mean it can't be played at the main stage of Evo.

Honestly, the transition from Melee to Smash 4 is a lot like Street Fighter 3 to Street Fighter 4 (3 being a lot faster paced and 4 revolving around defensive play and footsies). I think watching Smash 4 would be great. The meta could develop over time and we could even learn new tech, but we won't if we keep praising Melee. I love Melee it's one of my most beloved games, but give something else a chance. Watching Peach, Fox, Marth, Falco, Jigglypuff, and Falcon gets boring after 10 years.

Note: I'm not saying Melee or even Project M shouldn't be played at tournaments anymore, I'm just saying it shouldn't be main stage Evo anymore with Smash 4 right around the corner.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Port priority also exists in Brawl and it was extremely significant in some matchups in the game (Snake in particular). Now I'm curious if it also exists in Smash 4.

From what I have been researching up it looks like a no so far.

There might be something in there that does but so far there is nothing.

 

[Diabolical]

The deep choice of more or less lag, how deep a choice that is. essentially what L-canceling is. There is no choice, you just do it. This isn't like an EX meter when having a more powerful version or a move, including in most cases frame data, has an actual cost and choice to it. And even if it's there to promote more technical ability, what does it really add to gameplay? It makes the skill floor much higher without really adding anything of value to the skill ceiling. It's bad game design.

I'm not saying I promote planing or fighting over the other, I'm saying Melee has moments of bad game design which turn me off from it over Smash 4, and in turn Brawl is kinda equal to it in my eyes in terms of which I would play more of Melee or Brawl. Smash 4 I would play more so far from what I have played.

Crouch Canceling in reality limits offensive gameplay more than anything ad punishes you for making what should be a positive reward in the long run.

Smash has always been about being accessible, Melee is on a basic level, not on a competitive level at all because there is no way to learn A->B or way to figure it out. This is something PM actually has done a lot better and even Smash 4 is a lot better for helping people learn to play it better than Melee is.

Melee isn't a bad game at all, but when a lot of the these issues limit how many people I can get to playing the game. Then that is a real problem. Melee is not kind to someone trying to pick it up, this is something a lot of other fighters, not talking any other smash game here for this point, does a lot better.

I don't understand how this has to do with anything.....well first Melee L-canceling is still better than Smash4 landing Lag. Second I don't care about casuals when we are talking about Evo - THE LARGEST FIGHTING GAME TOURNAMENT. We are talking about what is the best fighting game to be played by professionals at the highest level, not what is morally the better game for humanity. You play Smash4 all you want, I still believe as a fighting game it's crap. Making it easier for casuals doesn't legitimise it for Evo

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't understand how this has to do with anything.....well first Melee L-canceling is still better than Smash4 landing Lag. Second I don't care about casuals when we are talking about Evo - THE LARGEST FIGHTING GAME TOURNAMENT. We are talking about what is the best fighting game to be played by professionals at the highest level, not what is morally the better game for humanity. You play Smash4 all you want, I still believe as a fighting game it's crap. Making it easier for casuals doesn't legitimise it for Evo

Smash 4 has auto canceling everywhere, this is not a problem. Which is pretty much just a timed L-cancel in concept but only in those situations.

You should care since they are people who will keep your game going and Melee is not casual friendly for being it up at a skill floor. Which means the game is limiting who can and will play it. Even M2K has said the difficulty is one of the problems with Melee and how you need a pristine and fresh control just to make sure you can win. Evo gets a huge following, but it could have had bigger if Melee as a open as PM or even more than that for people to learn it.

Does this matter at a competitive level? for the people up top no. For the people trying to enjoy it absolutely this matters.

Melee has bad game design in it, same with Brawl. Smash 4 if anything tried to find what was good about both and put them together and being it's own thing. Make it more accessible makes it easier for people to enter and be hype in it.

 

[Diabolical]

Smash 4 has auto canceling everywhere, this is not a problem. Which is pretty much just a timed L-cancel in concept but only in those situations.

You should care since they are people who will keep your game going and Melee is not casual friendly for being it up at a skill floor. Which means the game is limiting who can and will play it. Even M2K has said the difficulty is one of the problems with Melee and how you need a pristine and fresh control just to make sure you can win. Evo gets a huge following, but it could have had bigger if Melee as a open as PM or even more than that for people to learn it.

Does this matter at a competitive level? for the people up top no. For the people trying to enjoy it absolutely this matters.

Melee has bad game design in it, same with Brawl. Smash 4 if anything tried to find what was good about both and put them together and being it's own thing. Make it more accessible makes it easier for people to enter and be hype in it.

Smash4 sucks as a fighting game almost as much as Brawl. The best fighting game deserves to be in Evo, IN THIS DISCUSSION this is all that matters.
Melee is a good spectator sport because of it's elegantly design mechanics that forces competitors in most cases to be very aggressive to win. Smash4 isn't as interesting because it took out these techs by catering to casuals. Also L-cancel is better than Auto cancel because it gives more freedom and potential for MUCH faster and more combo heavy gameplay.
Look, I'll just say I understand you have good intentions.....making it easier for people to join in the competitive side of smash is noble. But all your examples (taking away advance techs) just destroys what is so interesting about Smash competitive in the first place. Melee is still the most appropriate Smash game to be hosted at Evo

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Just a random tidbit, why does it seem like almost everyone for smash 4 is someone incredibly new to smashboards or has <200 posts.
Just wondering

Smash 4 has auto canceling everywhere, this is not a problem. Which is pretty much just a timed L-cancel in concept but only in those situations.

You should care since they are people who will keep your game going and Melee is not casual friendly for being it up at a skill floor. Which means the game is limiting who can and will play it. Even M2K has said the difficulty is one of the problems with Melee and how you need a pristine and fresh control just to make sure you can win. Evo gets a huge following, but it could have had bigger if Melee as a open as PM or even more than that for people to learn it.

Does this matter at a competitive level? for the people up top no. For the people trying to enjoy it absolutely this matters.

Melee has bad game design in it, same with Brawl. Smash 4 if anything tried to find what was good about both and put them together and being it's own thing. Make it more accessible makes it easier for people to enter and be hype in it.

If a game is accessible and is fast, it is hype. Take a look at 64 outside of the most recent Apex.

if a game is accessible and slow as brawls, it isn't hype. Take a look at Brawl for a good example of this.
If you have to explain to someone why a character is grabbing a ledge and why someone is air camping and why that is hype, it'll go over the head of anyone outside the community more than the speed found in melee.

I am not tying to claim that smash 4 at this point is that slow. It obviously isn't and yeah it is more accessible. But if the game does evolve to become very similar to brawl (aka if there is a duck hunt dog ditto somewhere in top 8 or someone similar,) as in terms of how long stocks take regardless of early combos, it won't be a good spectator sport.

 

[Bobopatch]

What I think:

Pros prefer Melee over Sm4sh because they are frightened. They don't want to evolve. They are lazy to learn new techniques, new situations.

The most important problem of the Smash Community is they AREN'T the Smash Community. They think that they are but I don't think so. They are the Melee Community.

Lack of evolution = Dead. Melee is going to die someday, and I really hope for this to happen the sooner the better.

"Smash" Community is the only one that refuses a new game. OK. Sm4sh maybe not perfect, maybe not as perfect as Melee (I don't think so). But it has no sense continuing with a game who has 10+ years old, with no online community. It's insane.

 

[Comet7]

melee of course. this is a tournament for fighting games, so the only thing that matters is the mechanics. melee's are competitively better, so melee should be in.

also for somebody complaining about crouch cancel, just grab them lol. there's also the fact that people are mostly immobile when attempting to cc.

 

[The Soap]

What I think:

Pros prefer Melee over Sm4sh because they are frightened. They don't want to evolve. They are lazy to learn new techniques, new situations.

The most important problem of the Smash Community is they AREN'T the Smash Community. They think that they are but I don't think so. They are the Melee Community.

Lack of evolution = Dead. Melee is going to die someday, and I really hope for this to happen the sooner the better.

"Smash" Community is the only one that refuses a new game. OK. Sm4sh maybe not perfect, maybe not as perfect as Melee (I don't think so). But it has no sense continuing with a game who has 10+ years old, with no online community. It's insane.

Melee players play Melee because they enjoy it, not because they are "too lazy" to learn new techniques.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

What I think:

Pros prefer Melee over Sm4sh because they are frightened. They don't want to evolve. They are lazy to learn new techniques, new situations.

The most important problem of the Smash Community is they AREN'T the Smash Community. They think that they are but I don't think so. They are the Melee Community.

Lack of evolution = Dead. Melee is going to die someday, and I really hope for this to happen the sooner the better.

"Smash" Community is the only one that refuses a new game. OK. Sm4sh maybe not perfect, maybe not as perfect as Melee (I don't think so). But it has no sense continuing with a game who has 10+ years old, with no online community. It's insane.

People thought melee was going to die when brawl was released. It's bigger than it ever has been. You might not know this but there is the 3rd biggest melee event of all time happening this weekend.

People tried to do replicate a fast game for brawl but the majority stopped after 6-8 months. If anything it was that game that almost deleted melee but thanks to RoM and some other events, we are here at this point. If melee was going to die it would have done so once they were dropped from EVO/MLG several years ago.

 

[Comet7]

What I think:

1.Pros prefer Melee over Sm4sh because they are frightened. They don't want to evolve. They are lazy to learn new techniques, new situations.

2. The most important problem of the Smash Community is they AREN'T the Smash Community. They think that they are but I don't think so. They are the Melee Community.

3. Lack of evolution = Dead. Melee is going to die someday, and I really hope for this to happen the sooner the better.

4. "Smash" Community is the only one that refuses a new game. OK. Sm4sh maybe not perfect, maybe not as perfect as Melee (I don't think so). But it has no sense continuing with a game who has 10+ years old, with no online community. It's insane.

this really irritates me. points are numbered for simplicity

1. or maybe they know enough about the game to know that its mechanics aren't competitive.

2. of course. pretty sure most of us will acknowledge the fact that there are people that don't play competitively.

3. and why would we give up melee for a game that we don't like as much?

4. see #3. age is irrelevant; that actually only proves how good the game is since people still play it. same goes for wifi.

 

[Bobopatch]

Melee players play Melee because they enjoy it, not because they are "too lazy" to learn new techniques.

I disagree.

Sm4sh is the new installment of the saga.

They can enjoy Melee, but I think Street Fighter II/III is better than SFIV and the community supports the new game.

Why Smash community (or Melee one) don't give any chance to Sm4sh? It's incredible. The game only have 48 hours and people don't stop to complain.

It's for what I think that... they'll complain too if Sm4sh would been the best fighting game in the world because potatoes.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

The reason why the SF community supports the new game is since it rolls around very similar gameplay as the previous one. The only game with a slightly different engine, thanks to parrying, is 3rd strike and I think that game was a little while ago (it's also my preference fyi.)

If smash 4 was fast and if smash 4 had at least some melee physics to it, sure, people would play it. But when a 2 stock game takes as long as a 4 stock game in melee, there is something wrong with trying to make it competitive. The physics engine is too different, and in a bad way.

As I'll note or should note in all my posts, I'll take all of this back if the game is competitive. Quite simply, I haven't played the WiiU version yet, nor have a whole lot of other people.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Smash4 sucks as a fighting game almost as much as Brawl. The best fighting game deserves to be in Evo, IN THIS DISCUSSION this is all that matters.
Melee is a good spectator sport because of it's elegantly design mechanics that forces competitors in most cases to be very aggressive to win. Smash4 isn't as interesting because it took out these techs by catering to casuals. Also L-cancel is better than Auto cancel because it gives more freedom and potential for MUCH faster and more combo heavy gameplay.
Look, I'll just say I understand you have good intentions.....making it easier for people to join in the competitive side of smash is noble. But all your examples (taking away advance techs) just destroys what is so interesting about Smash competitive in the first place. Melee is still the most appropriate Smash game to be hosted at Evo

Or you just cut all lag in half and then nothing of value was lost, except tech skill but that shouldn't be a focus point if it doesn't bring anything else to the table. Wavedashing does this and I am sad to see that go. L-Canceling in concept is not making the game deeper, it's making it harder artificially.

That is where my issue is, because the execution matters far far more over actually being depth to the table outside of at the top where this becomes a moot point. Yes I understand this is what people like about Melee, but it is a turn off and I have a hard time getting my friends to give it a shot, unlike kinda of PM, Brawl and Smash 4 where they don't really have issues playing it.

The reason why the SF community supports the new game is since it rolls around very similar gameplay as the previous one. The only game with a slightly different engine, thanks to parrying, is 3rd strike and I think that game was a little while ago (it's also my preference fyi.)

If smash 4 was fast and if smash 4 had at least some melee physics to it, sure, people would play it. But when a 2 stock game takes as long as a 4 stock game in melee, there is something wrong with trying to make it competitive. The physics engine is too different, and in a bad way.

As I'll note or should note in all my posts, I'll take all of this back if the game is competitive. Quite simply, I haven't played the WiiU version yet, nor have a whole lot of other people.

Got an average for Melee? 2 stocks in smash 4 lasts on average of 3 minutes and this from from tournament data.

 

[smashbro29]

It is way too early to say. Let's see how the WiiU version is first.

 

[Estwood]

Melee, because honestly regardless of age or skill people will still want to play a game designed like Melee and it's engine. Smash 4 feels like it's trying to aim for another market.

 

[Fuzzyness]

Until smash 4 proves that its got a huge community with support and has great viewership like melee, Melee should be the game

There is no metagame for smash 4 right now, melee is a hugely developed game through years of tournaments

This is how it should be until proven otherwise

No one cares if a game is new and fresh, you might as well put some random other game if you care about a game being "new" but it doesnt work like that. The game has to be developed and have great viewership for EVO

Look at Melee and SkullGirls during that EVO donation drive, thats what a real game + community is about and Smash 4 needs to be up there to get the spot

 

[Diabolical]

Or you just cut all lag in half and then nothing of value was lost, except tech skill but that shouldn't be a focus point if it doesn't bring anything else to the table. Wavedashing does this and I am sad to see that go. L-Canceling in concept is not making the game deeper, it's making it harder artificially.

That is where my issue is, because the execution matters far far more over actually being depth to the table outside of at the top where this becomes a moot point. Yes I understand this is what people like about Melee, but it is a turn off and I have a hard time getting my friends to give it a shot, unlike kinda of PM, Brawl and Smash 4 where they don't really have issues playing it.

No, you don't understand. All I am saying is Melee L-cancel is better than Smash4 autocancel. You can't say Melee is doing something wrong then say Smash4 is doing it right. That's being hypocritical. EVERYTHING Smash4 does right, Melee does better for the competitive scene

 

[Fuzzyness]

Diablolical you are helping no one comparing game mechanics they are completely different games, this is what a lot of people make mistakes in when they are too high of themselves defending the games they love and defaming other games for no reason.

the only things that matter for evo are community + viewership, if a game is more popular and supported then thats all that matters

On top of that if a company decides to sponsor the game that also helps a lot

 

[MTL Kyle]

The deep choice of more or less lag, how deep a choice that is. essentially what L-canceling is. There is no choice, you just do it. This isn't like an EX meter when having a more powerful version or a move, including in most cases frame data, has an actual cost and choice to it. And even if it's there to promote more technical ability, what does it really add to gameplay? It makes the skill floor much higher without really adding anything of value to the skill ceiling. It's bad game design.

You realize that the only reason of why shield pressure exists is because of L-Canceling right ?

Funnily enough, there is no such a thing in the only 2 versions of smash who don't have a way to cancel lag.

 

[Landry]

What I think:

Pros prefer Melee over Sm4sh because they are frightened. They don't want to evolve. They are lazy to learn new techniques, new situations.

The most important problem of the Smash Community is they AREN'T the Smash Community. They think that they are but I don't think so. They are the Melee Community.

Lack of evolution = Dead. Melee is going to die someday, and I really hope for this to happen the sooner the better.

"Smash" Community is the only one that refuses a new game. OK. Sm4sh maybe not perfect, maybe not as perfect as Melee (I don't think so). But it has no sense continuing with a game who has 10+ years old, with no online community. It's insane.

This is so silly and ignorant.

 

[Diabolical]

Diablolical you are helping no one comparing game mechanics they are completely different games, this is what a lot of people make mistakes in when they are too high of themselves defending the games they love and defaming other games for no reason.

the only things that matter for evo are community + viewership, if a game is more popular and supported then thats all that matters

On top of that if a company decides to sponsor the game that also helps a lot

So many people on this thread say Smash4 IS the better competitive game, I chose to ask them why they think that. No one has a reasonable answer which makes me believe they are trolls.

 

[Fuzzyness]

I wish I was mod still on smashboards, I'd make sure this thread was controlled to stop bashing eachothers game and just give good reasoning

I rarely did mod smashboards but this thread is silly

MrWizard wants some good reasoning and all you guys are doing is looking like muppets

I doubt he's taking anything on smashboards seriously now


Diabolical there is no reason to dictate back why Melee is a better game either, you are just as bad if you argue back

In terms of the statistics argument, tier and overused characters have never been a problem. Again this doesn't stop a game being popular. Akuma has been used tons in Street Fighter as well but this doesn't ruin the excitement of the tournaments

 

[Sparklepower]

To be fair,


Usage Statistics#

Fox 2409

Marth 1841

Falco 1814

Fox makes up almost 20% of players in melee. and the top have, while diverse, really doesn't open up lower. MK might be broken as all hell but Brawl still had a lot more variance in terms of usage even with MK in the picture.

They are quite dominant in Melee and Peach really only gets main rep from Armada, and even he needs to switch to Young Link for Jiggs against Hungrybox.

I don't feel like that's a fair comparison when you consider there's still many MK banned tournaments, which has a huge effect on the characters people choose the main. Why would you main a character when there are going to be tournaments you can't even use them in?

Anyway, is there really any reason not to have both? Having multiple of the same fighters in the lineup isn't exactly unheard of, they've used two versions of street fighter multiple times before. Hell, in 2009 they had THREE versions of street fighter in the lineup.

I suppose if it really comes down to one or the other I'll say melee, it's just far more entertaining to watch.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No, you don't understand. All I am saying is Melee L-cancel is better than Smash4 autocancel. You can't say Melee is doing something wrong then say Smash4 is doing it right. That's being hypocritical. EVERYTHING Smash4 does right, Melee does better for the competitive scene

The difference that you're not getting here is that a good reason to support smash 4 is that not only is it fresh in mechanics, notice how no one saying it's skill-less mentions the pivot techs Smash 4 has? Or how the legitimate combos do exist in the game? Or how there is offensive pressure with changes in custom movesets for depth or the far more diverse cast that has a far larger variance of styles compared what actually shows up in Melee.

No they aren't going to say this because they don't know jack about the game and it's very evident in this thread when I am seeing people say Vectoring is gonna ruin combos, entirely proven false.

I'm strongly against techs like L-canceling because there is no depth to the tech in terms of choice. That's why I said for that tech it's doing it right because L-cancelling is an illusionary choice. Unlike wavedashing which has choice and offer depth at the same time. That's a good mechanic.

This is one of the reasons people do not like playing Melee or getting involved in it over Smash 4 which is criticism I am pointing out to you and others who don't get it or don't care.

I play every game but 64, and I support Melee over Smash 4 because of a secure ruleset. But I'm extremely annoyed by the terrible input on why Smash 4 shouldn't be there and there are a lot of bad arguments for why it shouldn't be there in the thread. The main one that holds true to me is the ruleset and that is because there is a lot to figure out with equipment. custom movesets, a stagelist we don't know the full details of. Figuring to support that in 2-3 months is not gonna happen easily even with Smash on the 3DS out.

I stand by that, but why I am playing devil's advocate is because the sheer amount of bad arguments going around why it shouldn't ever be there. I love the series, but this thread really isn't making me feel comfortable keeping this area around when I am seeing it turn into, "Smash 4 is depthless" when I really don't think most people know what is in that game is available to begin with.

Melee isn't for everyone, and Smash 4 is a hell of a lot better than Brawl for a lot of people.

You realize that the only reason of why shield pressure exists is because of L-Canceling right ?

Funnily enough, there is no such a thing in the only 2 versions of smash who don't have a way to cancel lag.

And what if lag got cut in half without the button input, aka all aerials had landing lag like they cancelled.

I wish I was mod still on smashboards, I'd make sure this thread was controlled to stop bashing eachothers game and just give good reasoning

I rarely did mod smashboards but this thread is silly

MrWizard wants some good reasoning and all you guys are doing is looking like muppets

I doubt he's taking anything on smashboards seriously now


Diabolical there is no reason to dictate back why Melee is a better game either, you are just as bad if you argue back

In terms of the statistics argument, tier and overused characters have never been a problem. Again this doesn't stop a game being popular. Akuma has been used tons in Street Fighter as well but this doesn't ruin the excitement of the tournaments

I think the criticism on some level is ok here. When it's not is when it is personal, hence why I infracted people earlier.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

If lag got cut in half without the button input, as in the game was ridiculously fast as it could be in melee without the need for L-cancelling, sure it would be better. But the fact that characters like Ganon in brawl cannot simply approach since he can't cancel his aerial lag.

 

[Alien]

Disregard everything I said; This game sucks massive ****, I'd rather watch smash64 than this ****ty ass game one moment longerFirst day of online play and I'm already returning this piece of **** **** hole of a creation

 

[shininimuss]

Speaking of crouch cancelling it's probably the worst Melee mechanic by far. Probably the only really bad one. Just from a competitive perspective it makes no sense for moves to be punished on HIT. You get punished for landing a hit, just think about that for a second. It severely limits viable options at low percents. Which is ironic considering Melee players love to boast about the options the game provides.

smash 4's bounce mechanic does exactly this...

 

[Snakeyes]

No, you don't understand. All I am saying is Melee L-cancel is better than Smash4 autocancel. You can't say Melee is doing something wrong then say Smash4 is doing it right. That's being hypocritical. EVERYTHING Smash4 does right, Melee does better for the competitive scene

What you're saying here is pretty dumb and doesn't help your argument at all. This is coming from someone who loves 64 and Melee and dislikes the two newest games, by the way.

The only problem with Smash 4's "auto-cancel" is that the landing lag on certain moves hasn't been balanced properly, which prevents us from doing the stuff we enjoyed in Melee. For example, Marth can barely combo because someone on the dev team though that adding a bunch of extra lag on his Fair was a good idea.