EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?

[C-SAF]

I keep seeing people say "way more people will like smash4", and this is completely true. Of course there will be its new.

But how many of those people are just casual gamers though that know nothing of Evo or even care. And how many more will say "oh yeah Smash4 at Evo, I'm a competitive player!" then get bored of the game a few months after its release and leave it to collect dust with their WiiU? I would hate to see melee get displace for that, and possibly never make it back to Evo again.

Smash4 looks like brawl, melee looks like melee. I know what I would vote for, regardless of how many others like it.

 

[Kuraudo]

I would love to see both, obviously, and personally I'd pick melee over Sm4sh, but I'm thinking it will more than likely be Sm4sh due to the possibility of Nintendo supporting it (they need to sell WiiU's) and the LCD issue.

That aside, anyone who dismisses common criticisms of Sm4sh as simply melee bigotry don't really understand what those criticisms mean. Stuff like the game speed, the DI system, the ledge system, the fact that people survive for much longer, and that it has tremendous focus on the neutral games are not "biased" opinions, that's just how the game boils down. These things won't change regardless of how many AT's are discovered, as they are core mechanics. Some people are fine with these things, but others aren't, and that doesn't make them worse for thinking that way.

Preferring Melee over Smash 4 isn't the problem. It's that I know now that history is bound to repeat itself no matter what changes Smash 4.

I hope you amongst others don't partake in what will practically be the "stoning" of Smash 4, but if history is any indication, there will be countless others that do take it upon themselves to **** on the game. Which will lead to commentary that commonly slams the game like we saw during Brawl's lifetime too.

--

Sorry that it sounded like I was coming after you when I replied. Just venting my frustrations as a player of Smash is all.

I'm gonna go out for the release tourney today and enjoy this game and push it in our community as best as I can.

 

[NotLiquid]

We will still see some new meta for Melee at Evo, and the difference is it will be breathtaking.

I look forward to the breathtaking meta where the top 5 will basically be the same characters as last year and most likely the same players as last year. See how that kind of close-mindedness works which a lot of people like to assume about Melee as well? Seeing Mango shred Hungrybox last year a second time in a row after already having sent him to losers sure was fun.

You can't speak for the meta of Smash 4. It hasn't even been properly delved into. It took years for Melee's meta to develop. It took years for Melee to get to the point where it is now. I'm not going to deny that there are things about Melee that work "better" given the framework that EVO provides but that does not discourage Smash 4's chances of developing much like it's predecessors into something that has a similarly dedicated scene with a different perspective of itself.

You're trying so hard to convince people that "Smash 4 supporters have no reason other than 'it just came out'" and you assume so much of it's player base such as "they won't pay for all the expenses involved to go to EVO" even though they haven't had much of a chance to show truly what they think of it, or realizing that this same thing happens with every fighting game ever. I have plenty of reasons for wanting to see it. I want to see old players break into the new game and see what it has to offer. I want to see new things executed with new mechanics and new characters that aren't possible to do in Melee. I want to see things done with exciting character dynamics that have already been discovered for several veterans and newcomers alike. I want to see new players that stand a chance to break into the scene in a big way. I want something different than Melee. These are hardly reasons not worth considering are they? Because I can bet you I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

I've had a lot of fun with Melee for the last decade, but I'm ready to let something else take the spotlight for a while, because I know Melee isn't going to die after this regardless. After six years I want to see Smash 4 be pushed to the same extents that the community has managed to leverage all it's previous titles, preferably without the immense gash within the community and EVO is a great opportunity for that given how the community pushed to have their series represented two years ago. The worst thing that happens if Smash 4 doesn't pan out? Just one year off it's back, community can recoup for the year after that to figure out where it stands on the game and the rest of the series.

The territorial nature of the Smash community needs to end and there is no gain from waving sticks at one another trying to convince that something or another is going to be the death knell of it. Something only dies once the interest dies out and clearly as has been shown here, there is a lot of interest in Melee. People will always have preferences. But that shouldn't come at the cost of something else. The community should be better than that. The only thing held accountable for any of these games getting into the way for one another or losing prominence is the fractured mentality where certain community "factions" are holding each other back rather than leaving them to their own devices.

 

[2Fox]

Preferring Melee over Smash 4 isn't the problem. It's that I know now that history is bound to repeat itself no matter what changes Smash 4.

I hope you amongst others don't partake in what will practically be the "stoning" of Smash 4, but if history is any indication, there will be countless others that do take it upon themselves to **** on the game. Which will lead to commentary that commonly slams the game like we saw during Brawl's lifetime too.

That's because Sm4sh will be ****ting on everything Melee has done and still does. Think about it from Melee players' perspective for one minute. Please spare 60 seconds for this, I know you are busy defending Smash 4. Melee, at this point, is almost unquestionably better competitively. It built a name for Smash in FGC and was so good it has remained at the top and been one of the most viewed streams of all time and at Evo. Smash 4 is deliberately less competitive and trying to take Melee's spot just because it is new.

It is terrible the way Melee players **** on Brawl and Smash 4 but their anger is easily understandable. Brawl and Sm4sh are designed to be party games. Let them be party games. Melee, as a happy accident, IS more competitive, so it should get the competitive stage. And what happened when Brawl got that competitive stage? Smash community as a whole was **** on and Melee took a huge blow. Now Melee has brought it back and Smash 4 wants to repeat. Melee is **** on for being old by Nintendo and MLG and entities like that which are gatekeepers to the big stages, Melee players turn to Smash community for a little support and are met with people who "just want to have fun"/ kids/ non-competitive players and all these people rush to trample over the progress Melee has made. Melee doesn't have a good commercial home scene anymore. Nobody takes out Melee for casual party play, they take out Brawl, and will take out Sm4sh soon. Melee has earned its spot in competitive circles though. Sm4sh shouldn't take that as well just because it has "Smash" in the title.

 

[C-SAF]

You can't speak for the meta of Smash 4. It hasn't even been properly delved into. It took years for Melee's meta to develop. It took years for Melee to get to the point where it is now.

And it took like 2 years for brawl to become campy and stagnant with one character dominating. Smash 4 is much closer to brawl and that I can say for certainty already.

The territorial nature of the Smash community needs to end and there is no gain from waving sticks at one another trying to convince that something or another is going to be the death knell of it.

In this instance there is lots to gain, infact an entire spot at Evo. If u don't want to wave sticks go play fetch with duck hunt dog.

 

[2Fox]

I look forward to the breathtaking meta where the top 5 will basically be the same characters as last year and most likely the same players as last year. See how that kind of close-mindedness works which a lot of people like to assume about Melee as well? Seeing Mango shred Hungrybox last year a second time in a row after already having sent him to losers sure was fun.

You can't speak for the meta of Smash 4. It hasn't even been properly delved into. It took years for Melee's meta to develop. It took years for Melee to get to the point where it is now. I'm not going to deny that there are things about Melee that work "better" given the framework that EVO provides but that does not discourage Smash 4's chances of developing much like it's predecessors into something that has a similarly dedicated scene with a different perspective of itself.

You're trying so hard to convince people that "Smash 4 supporters have no reason other than 'it just came out'" and you assume so much of it's player base such as "they won't pay for all the expenses involved to go to EVO" even though they haven't had much of a chance to show truly what they think of it, or realizing that this same thing happens with every fighting game ever. I have plenty of reasons for wanting to see it. I want to see old players break into the new game and see what it has to offer. I want to see new things executed with new mechanics and new characters that aren't possible to do in Melee. I want to see new players that stand a chance to break into the scene in a big way. I want something different than Melee. I've had a lot of fun with Melee for the last decade, but I'm ready to let something else take the spotlight for a while, because I know Melee isn't going to die after this regardless. After six years I want to see Smash 4 be pushed to the same extents that the community has managed to leverage all it's previous titles, and EVO is a great opportunity for that given how the community pushed to have their series represented two years ago. The worst thing that happens if Smash 4 doesn't pan out? Just one year off it's back, community can recoup for the year after that to figure out where it stands on the game and the rest of the series.

The territorial nature of the Smash community needs to end and there is no gain from waving sticks at one another trying to convince that something or another is going to be the death knell of it. Something only dies once the interest dies out and clearly as has been shown here, there is a lot of interest in Melee. But that shouldn't come at the cost of something else. The community should be better than that.

I don't know about other Melee players, but I'm not sure how much more fighting we can do before it's simply too tiring. Not saying the players like it less but the fight is exhausting year after year and now with a second post-Melee Smash game. You can't assume that removing Melee for even one year would be easy to recover from. If Sm4sh doesn't go well at Evo, you can't assume they will simply give the spot back to Melee. It will probably be hell to get it back.

I did think it was awesome to see that actually. One of the most storied rivalries of all time, watching Mango make history in a convincing fashion.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Smash 4 supporters have no reason besides it's new, I'm simply asking to hear those other reasons. You are the first person to do so, and I will address them now.

I want to see old players break into the new game and see what it has to offer.

This would be nice but ultimately that's for the players themselves to decide and forcing Sm4sh at Evo will not necessarily make them do this. Many old players are already going to stick with Melee, at least for competitive play. That's because the game itself doesn't have as much to offer.

I want to see new players that stand a chance to break into the scene in a big way

That is a chance no matter what game appears at Evo. aMSa is a great example.

but I'm ready to let something else take the spotlight for a while, because I know Melee isn't going to die after this regardless.

People put a ****ton of work into making Melee strong now you take it for granted and kick it aside? And how is "let something else take the spotlight for a while" not a restatement of "I want new"?

After six years I want to see Smash 4 be pushed to the same extents that the community has managed to leverage all it's previous titles, and EVO is a great opportunity for that given how the community pushed to have their series represented two years ago.

Brawl was not pushed to the same extent as Melee and neither will Sm4sh because that extent isn't there. It was purposely not created. It was made to be less competitive than Melee. Two years ago, the community pushed for MELEE not "the series" because Melee is uniquely awesome and different in important ways than other Smash titles. Evo is more than an opportunity. It is a fragile privilege that Melee earned, kept, and did so well that unlike any other FG series, we are now being asked if Melee should be up or should the new game be up, when almost always the new game takes over no questions asked. And Melee is killing Sm4sh in the poll.

Why does Sm4sh 4 have to be at Evo? I want to see the new game played, played well, and I want to see the meta unfold. But I don't think the game is worthy to take Melee's spot at the biggest competitive tournament in the world because ultimately Sm4sh isn't as competitive. It also didn't do **** to earn it.

Edit: As for the territorial stick-waving, as you put it, that's because we are constantly forced to choose just one game. At many locals 64, Melee, PM, and Brawl were all played and included equally. I think everyone is sick of the fighting but that is because we are forced to pick one. So many people said they would prefer to have both Melee and Sm4sh.

 

[Kuraudo]

That's because Sm4sh will be ****ting on everything Melee has done and still does. Think about it from Melee players' perspective for one minute. Please spare 60 seconds for this, I know you are busy defending Smash 4. Melee, at this point, is almost unquestionably better competitively. It built a name for Smash in FGC and was so good it has remained at the top and been one of the most viewed streams of all time and at Evo. Smash 4 is deliberately less competitive and trying to take Melee's spot just because it is new.

It is terrible the way Melee players **** on Brawl and Smash 4 but their anger is easily understandable. Brawl and Sm4sh are designed to be party games. Let them be party games. Melee, as a happy accident, IS more competitive, so it should get the competitive stage. And what happened when Brawl got that competitive stage? Smash community as a whole was **** on and Melee took a huge blow. Now Melee has brought it back and Smash 4 wants to repeat. Melee is **** on for being old by Nintendo and MLG and entities like that which are gatekeepers to the big stages, Melee players turn to Smash community for a little support and are met with people who "just want to have fun"/ kids/ non-competitive players and all these people rush to trample over the progress Melee has made. Melee doesn't have a good commercial home scene anymore. Nobody takes out Melee for casual party play, they take out Brawl, and will take out Sm4sh soon. Melee has earned its spot in competitive circles though. Sm4sh shouldn't take that as well just because it has "Smash" in the title.

I spared 60 seconds. In fact, I spared a good 6+ years and more listening to what Melee players have had to say. I say this as a Melee player myself. And believe me, I've listened to the extremists begrudgedly so and to the more sound people like you that are just concerned. The anger that Melee players felt towards Brawl and now Smash 4 can be understood for the fear of their game dying is...well, IMO Melee will never die anyways, but people worry. But is it justified? NO. Because just like the Melee players, there are Brawl players our there such as myself that enjoyed the mechanics of the game. And top level Brawl play to many players out there (not as high as Melee but numbers at times were impressive in the later stages of the games' life) was exciting to see when you saw just what people could do with things like Zero Suit Samus, or just how raw of a hard read top players could get out of the dodge mechanic in the game.

We're angry for getting **** on and being victims of happening to like these games. And not just because they're new either. Being new plays a part? But we stick with it for a reason anyways. And I'm sorry? But no. Melee, Brawl, 64, Smash 4? They're ALL party games AND fighting games. Taking the words of a game developer like Sakurai when he says "It's not a fighting game" doesn't mean much when we can make whatever rules that we want. Just as we did for Melee, and for every other Smash game after that. Notice how the FGC is the ones that looked down on Melee? Common FGC people STILL look down on Smash. Not as much, but that hasn't changed even with Melee's ressurgence.

I understand what you're saying. But I need you to understand what I'M saying right back. If Melee gets back in (which is fine I suppose even if I prefer this new Smash since it excites me) and people talk around about its success and the inevitable question of Smash 4 comes up, people will snort and go "Pfffft cause Melee's just better. Duh." Paraphrased.

You have any idea just how much that hurts? To be looked at as a side show? I don't think there should only be one Smash. And Smash 4 already feels like its proving itself as a different experience albeit shades of the past. Not to mention the game has literally been out in NA for one day.

Everybody hurts man. And unfortunately? The vocal Melee community are the most venomous to the Brawl (and potentially) and Smash 4 scene. And most times that people that play those latter two games competitively and stick with it, the reason they bite is because they've been bitten first? We defend ourselves from more than just the Melee community y'know. At one point we were all united for EVO, with Melee leading the charge because just seeing Smash BACK in the spotlight regardless of which version was awesome. And it was done with minimal animosity about the other games! What happened?

Now that Melee has come back, why are you guys so threatened by Smash 4? It WON'T go away. Whether it drops from EVO or not, the numbers and the hype won't change. The community learned their lesson with Brawl, regardless of how people felt about it. The influx of new players that come with Smash 4 won't hurt you guys like it did last time. And for the newcomers that slam Melee and say "lol your game is old", shame on those people. I'm just tired; tired of listening to people hate. Hate won't stop, but here it's just almost impossible to avoid unless I change myself and never listen to what people have to say.

 

[Greward]

Smash 4, because not having it in EVO while having Melee would kill the game. New games need to appear in the mainstream tournaments or else they won't have a chance to shine.
Both would be cool too. I don't have anything against Melee, I actually like it, but this time Smash 4 needs to be there.

 

[NotLiquid]

In this instance there is lots to gain, infact an entire spot at Evo. If u don't want to wave sticks go play fetch with duck hunt dog.

EVO is not the end-all be-all so there's no need for you to throw snarky comebacks about it. There are dozens of tournaments held annually that dedicate spots for Melee and have done so forever. If the Smash community could dig itself out of one ill fated EVO, it will be able to do that again, and it especially has the credit of having two mostly good years on it's record to support itself down the line. It proved itself that much two years ago when it wasn't just the Melee community that decided to bring that game back, but a conscious effort from every player involved who wanted to see something, anything come to life.

This would be nice but ultimately that's for the players themselves to decide and forcing Sm4sh at Evo will not necessarily make them do this. Many old players are already going to stick with Melee, at least for competitive play. That's because the game itself doesn't have as much to offer.

See this is a fair and level-headed reasoning. I can agree with the "potential" of this but at the end of the day this is still us ultimately talking about "potentials". Even so as the history goes, there is always a number of veterans ready to show what they have to offer on the new terrain. Not everyone will be on the ride, but that's fine. Sometimes we have to kill our idols.

That is a chance no matter what game appears at Evo. aMSa is a great example.

aMSa is one of my favorite players for that very reason. But I can't expect that Melee will always be inviting that same kind of attention. It's become increasingly rare for this to happen.

People put a ****ton of work into making Melee strong now you take it for granted and kick it aside? And how is "let something else take the spotlight for a while" not a restatement of "I want new"?

You're putting words in my mouth. People didn't just put a ton of work into making Melee strong. They put work into making Smash strong. Between choosing which Smash to push though, it was obvious that Melee was the better option because even Brawl players acknowledge that competitively there are more people dedicated to Melee and pushing Brawl was a losing battle because it ultimately meant chances for either would effectively cannibalize itself. But if a community can't accept the opportunity to give it's eventual successor an opportunity to come alive for even one year then that is not a very open minded community dedicated towards it's craft. It is an insular community that is only focused on one game.

we are now being asked if Melee should be up or should the new game be up, when almost always the new game takes over no questions asked. And Melee is killing Sm4sh in the poll.

Ah yes I'm surprised a lot of players are voting for a game they are more familiar with and have played more. Just like when everyone wanted to kneecap MvC3 when it came out and how everyone said X-Factor and Sentinel ruined the game and expected ten more years of MvC2.

It also didn't do **** to earn it.

What does it "have to do"? Have a player base who will support it? Well the game has barely even come out for one thing so you're going to have to give that one time.

Quite frankly if you can't accept that Smash 4 can't develop itself a similar base regardless of whatever changes it has then this conversation is completely fruitless and we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[2Fox]

Prove that Melee won't have a hard time returning to Evo if it turns out it's better, prove that Melee community won't suffer, and I'm with you. Will Mango and other hype players stick with Melee? Yeah, no doubt tons of people will stick with it. The concern is that hype surrounding the game itself will be hurt, and come on, how could it not be? I feel threatened, I feel scared for the Melee scene. Give me something for reassurance besides history. People change and you can't rely on Melee players and Smash in general pulling together like they did for Evo 2012 every time. That was a miracle.

Sm4sh will be looked at as a sideshow only in competitive circles, the vast minority of people who have ever played a smash title play it competitively. Sm4sh will be huge commercially and Melee...well it's 14 years old now. So the typical 10-15 year old kid buying Sm4sh might not even have Melee cross their mind. On top of that, Sm4sh isn't supposed to be a main stage competitive game. Melee of course wasn't supposed to be either, but it turned out to be by accident. A game game only make it past "sideshow" status if it deserves it, not because a previous title in the series deserved it. Ravi Coltrane will never be as good as John Coltrane until and unless he is actually as good as John Coltrane (for those who don't know, John is the father and a revolutionary jazz saxophonist, Ravi is the son who is also a saxophonist but less renowned).

Of course it sucks for Sm4sh to be viewed as a sideshow but that's really because of the game itself, not a reflection on the people who play it. If the game merited hype it would have hype just like Melee.

As for Zero-Suit and all that, high-level Brawl is kind of cool because it's surprising based on how much **** it gets, but once that wears off (and it wears off quickly because it's still pretty campy), it is pretty obviously not as good as Melee. And being good-but-not-better-than-Melee shouldn't warrant an Evo spot over Melee.

FGC people will look down on Smash more because Sm4sh will simply look and simply is less competitive than Melee.

Saying Melee is back because "pfft it's better than Sm4sh" might be rude or whatever, but, in this hypothetical scenario, Melee IS better. Why is it bad to play the better game?

 

[Max?]

Smash 4 at EVO is probably a bad idea. It will take forever to run, will be boring to watch, and will almost certainly have the same effect that Brawl at EVO had when it first came out. The greater public outside of smash/the FGC will shun the game and Smash will be removed from the limelight completely.

That said, I have no investment in whatever game is played as I won't be going, and I will continue to play Melee regardless of how the future unholds, but for those of you who are brand new to the scene and were not around when Brawl first came out, I implore you to listen to older Smash vets. We don't need a repeat in history, Melee is the best game to represent the greater scene to the FGC. Let's not kill smash

 

[2Fox]

EVO is not the end-all be-all so there's no need for you to throw snarky comebacks about it. If the Smash community could dig itself out of one ill fated EVO, it will be able to do that again. It proved itself that much two years ago when it wasn't just the Melee community that decided to bring that game back, but a conscious effort from every player involved who wanted to see something, anything come to life.

This is possibly the most dangerous line of thinking going around right now. You can't simply insert community reaction from one place in time to another. The world, especially the gaming world, especially Nintendo gaming world, is extremely unpredictable. You'll have some people leaving Melee altogether, and very few new players going from Sm4sh to Melee. It will be weaker and Nintendo will have incredibly strong backing for SM4sh unlike it did for Brawl in 2012. Players won't be desperate to see "something, anything come back to life" because Evo 2016 will not be during a drought. Smash will have been there for 4 years, so the desperation won't be there. And the Melee community and Smash community will be different. We absolutely CANNOT assume Melee can simply come back to Evo. It might happen, but to assume it is ridiculous.

aMSa is one of my favorite players for that very reason. But I can't expect that Melee will always be inviting that same kind of attention. It's become increasingly rare for this to happen.

I think a lot of older players are only going to stick around major events a couple more years. M2k, for example, is trying to make money off streams and wayyy less off major tournaments. Hbox and PPMD have degrees now, Mango has a son, and the general demographic of current Melee players suggests that life will get in the way. Not that they will abandon it, but plenty of new players can rise up.

You're putting words in my mouth. People didn't just put a ton of work into making Melee strong. They put work into making Smash strong. Between choosing which Smash to push though, it was obvious that Melee was the better option because even Brawl players acknowledge that competitively there are more people dedicated to Melee and pushing Brawl was a losing battle because it ultimately meant chances for either would effectively cannibalize itself. But if a community can't accept the opportunity to give it's eventual successor an opportunity to come alive for even one year then that is not a very open minded community dedicated towards it's craft. It is an insular community that is only focused on one game.

The successor isn't in the same vein as Melee. Melee players love certain mechanics that are NOT in Sm4sh. Love for Melee isn't a general love of Smash in general, although many players like other Smash titles to lesser extents. It's a love specific for the happy accidents in Melee. The "craft" simply isn't the same. Hypothetically, if Sm4sh had Melee mechanics or somehow achieved a competitive style close to Melee, I think most players would move on to the new game. The reason why the community seems "insular" is that Sm4sh and Brawl were not what Melee players wanted.

Ah yes I'm surprised a lot of players are voting for a game they are more familiar with and have played more. Just like when everyone wanted to kneecap MvC3 when it came out and how everyone said X-Factor and Sentinel ruined the game and expected ten more years of MvC2.

You think it's because of those reasons but really Melee players, I think for the most part, are dying for a Melee-esque new Smash game. It just hasn't been given. Familiarity doesn't have a lot to do with it. We are both guessing here, I think it's pretty much a moot point since we don't have that much evidence, although I think there are probably tons of examples of people eagerly anticipating new FG titles despite lack of familiarity. I'm not that knowledgeable about it but I think Halo 3 was a good example of this.

What does it "have to do"? Have a player base who will support it? Well the game has barely even come out for one thing so you're going to have to give that one time.

Well Melee beat out every other game in a poll at first, and then it raised almost 100k for charity, and then it raised hell when Nintendo tried to block streaming. And this was born largely out of a love for the game. Sm4sh has elements that many Melee players specifically dislike, so many don't have that same love for it.

Quite frankly if you can't accept that Smash 4 can't develop itself a similar base regardless of whatever changes it has then this conversation is completely fruitless and we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

It's a game with very different limitations. It can develop a base but it won't be for the same reasons that we love Melee. It isn't as competitive of a game. It deserves lots of love and support but not all Smash games necessarily deserve an extremely high privilege at Evo. Gameplay is a critical element of main-stage games and Melee has whatever that is. Sm4sh was made specifically not to have it.

 

[C-SAF]

EVO is not the end-all be-all so there's no need for you to throw snarky comebacks about it .

Lol snark, Evo is only the point of this entire thread. Its what we are talking about dude.

"EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?"

 

[King~]

you know i find it funny that when brawl came out the only people that didnt support melee was the melee community. not the game, not people putting melee down, it was melee players not hosting or attending events that pulled it to such a low. so now they feel like its happening again, when they can just man up and keep their community together.

like why are we working so hard to make EVO a success when we could put that effort into making our own events that much better(say Apex). yea evo has the spotlight, but we should be trying to bring it to our tournaments. we wouldnt have issues like this if a Smash tournament was the biggest smash event of the year.

 

[NotLiquid]

Lol snark, Evo is only the point of this entire thread. Its what we are talking about dude.

"EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?"

And I was talking about EVO.

So congratulations on pointing out the obvious?

 

[Max?]

you know i find it funny that when brawl came out the only people that didnt support melee was the melee community. not the game, not people putting melee down, it was melee players not hosting or attending events that pulled it to such a low. so now they feel like its happening again, when they can just man up and keep their community together.

like why are we working so hard to make EVO a success when we could put that effort into making our own events that much better(say Apex). yea evo has the spotlight, but we should be trying to bring it to our tournaments. we wouldnt have issues like this if a Smash tournament was the biggest smash event of the year.

This statement is wrong on so many levels. People initially jumped over to Brawl under the guise that it was a great new game worth moving on for. When it was clear that it was in fact, not a fun competitive game, almost everyone jumped back. Melee is the biggest it's ever been right now, and doesn't seem to be slowing down anytime soon. Big House 4 is happening right now ad over 500+ people are going for Melee/PM.

We learned from our mistakes last time, no jumping ship for Brawl 2.0

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

Okay, then explain how Smash4 is better competitively, for spectating and for participating. So far we have only found things that simplify the experience, like Vectoring and no shield stun. I don't think anyone would argue smash 4 is a stronger fighter than Melee any day

Ummm... Flame War? :D But seriously, do we NEED to start a conversation like this? Also, the game has only been out for how long?

 

[Diabolical]

Ummm... Flame War? :D

Legitimate question that no one has answered. How is Smash4 any better than Melee competitively??

 

[JFB (JurgaBurgaFlintines)]

Ummm... Flame War? :D

Legitimate question that no one has answered. How is Smash4 any better than Melee competitively??

Well, Smash 4 isn't close to Melee in terms of competitive techniques. But why do people want Smash 4 at EVO, it is a newer game and a newer game will generally draw a larger audience and that is good for us as a community to grow.

 

[King~]

This statement is wrong on so many levels. People initially jumped over to Brawl under the guise that it was a great new game worth moving on for. When it was clear that it was in fact, not a fun competitive game, almost everyone jumped back. Melee is the biggest it's ever been right now, and doesn't seem to be slowing down anytime soon. Big House 4 is happening right now ad over 500+ people are going for Melee/PM.

We learned from our mistakes last time, no jumping ship for Brawl 2.0

so then what about what i said was wrong? melee T.O.s jumped to brawl and either quit for life reasons or went back. i never stated the reason they jumped, the point was they jumped for one reason or another. you just restated with i said with your own bias on what happened. so youre calling yourself wrong on so many levels

 

[C-SAF]

And I was talking about EVO.

So congratulations on pointing out the obvious?

No need for your snark, u were diminishing the importance of Evo, in a thread about Evo.

 

[NotLiquid]

No need for your snark, u were diminishing the importance of Evo, in a thread about Evo.

You are straw manning really hard here. I never said EVO is not important. I said it doesn't make or break a game. A community does that before anything else. The terrible 2008 outing wasn't the reason Brawl died and claiming it did does a disservice towards the actual reasons Brawl died. Most of all, it didn't kill the Smash community. The community continued doing what it did and brought itself back to prominence.

And even if I did "diminish" the importance of EVO, I don't see how that is sacrilege. You said it yourself, this is a thread about EVO, and that's what I'm discussing.

 

[Snakeyes]

Well, Smash 4 isn't close to Melee in terms of competitive techniques.

It's got very little to do with techniques. Wavewiggling-canceling or not, the base foundation of Smash 4 doesn't lend itself to a very dynamic game at a high level of play.

AFAIK, Brawl had more advanced techniques than Melee but the former was still trash at a tournament level.

 

[JMan8891]

I think it should still be Melee. It is a faster paced, higher energy game at all the different skill levels... it gets the most hype. That draws attention and new blood into the community. From everything I've seen thus far, Smash 4 just doesnt have the depth at higher levels of play. I dont find it as exciting to watch.

 

[Diabolical]

Well, Smash 4 isn't close to Melee in terms of competitive techniques. But why do people want Smash 4 at EVO, it is a newer game and a newer game will generally draw a larger audience and that is good for us as a community to grow.

So I am completely correct when I say it is a FACT that Melee is a better competitive game

 

[eshu125]

So I am completely correct when I say it is a FACT that Melee is a better competitive game

competitive techniques is not synonymous with 'better competitive game'. You really need to look up the definition of competition (and 'fact' while you're at it) so you don't go around making yourself look any more ignorant than you already are.

 

[Diabolical]

competitive techniques is not synonymous with 'better competitive game'. You really need to look up the definition of competition (and 'fact' while you're at it) so you don't go around making yourself look any more ignorant than you already are.

My question is HOW is Smash4 a better competitive game as a spectator and as a competitor and no one has an answer, yet I could write for pages why Melee is a better game for competition

 

[Kidney Thief]

I want to see melee please

 

[C-SAF]

You are straw manning really hard here. I never said EVO is not important. I said it doesn't make or break a game. A community does that before anything else. The terrible 2008 outing wasn't the reason Brawl died and claiming it did does a disservice towards the actual reasons Brawl died. Most of all, it didn't kill the Smash community. The community continued doing what it did and brought itself back to prominence.

And even if I did "diminish" the importance of EVO, I don't see how that is sacrilege. You said it yourself, this is a thread about EVO, and that's what I'm discussing.

We are talking about which game should go to evo, I guess I should specify further. Most of your post isn't about that is all I was saying. Diminish was a poor choice of words, my bad, shoulda known someone would misinterpret it. I should be pointing out more obvious with my posts lol

 

[NotLiquid]

We are talking about which game should go to evo, I guess I should specify further. Most of your post isn't about that is all I was saying. Diminish was a poor choice of words, my bad, shoulda known someone would misinterpret it. I should be pointing out more obvious with my posts lol

That's fair enough. I do agree with what you're saying that it's detrimental to complain about this "being" a discussion, because it is a discussion worth having. Though I do feel it necessary to point out that in that instance I wasn't criticizing the discussion itself, just that whichever one gets in isn't going to spell the end for either competitive community. Both Smash 4 and Melee will continue to have competitive communities in some form and I think we all can trust that each of the games' fans will be there to support them on the ride.

 

[zoyy2007]

Because Melee is the much better competitive game. That's a fact

Lol dude, smash 4 looks great. And that's your opinion, i doubt you even played smash 4 yet anyway.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Both! But I think Smash 4's the main game that need some of that EVO goodness.

 

[Diabolical]

Lol dude, smash 4 looks great. And that's your opinion, i doubt you even played smash 4 yet anyway.

Can somebody actually give at least 1 reason why Smash4 is anything better than Melee competitively? Because you are talking out of your ass otherwise. I can easily argue that Melee is better for tourney's in every way except for that it's old and Smash4 is new. Just because a game looks more colouful doesn't mean it plays better for a competitive audience

 

[Pikmin1211]

Sm4sh for me

 

[zoyy2007]

Can somebody actually give at least 1 reason why Smash4 is anything better than Melee competitively? Because you are talking out of your *** otherwise. I can easily argue that Melee is better for tourney's in every way except for that it's old and Smash4 is new. Just because a game looks more colouful doesn't mean it plays better for a competitive audience

Why not have something new besides "Super Spacies Bros Marth?" Smash 4 has an amazing roster and I want to see these "top level" tryhards adapt to the game. Also i'm pretty sure you're just jumping on the melee bandwagon and truly don't know what you're talking about.

 

[MTL Kyle]

competitive techniques

LOL

Why not have something new besides "Super Spacies Bros Marth?" Smash 4 has an amazing roster and I want to see these "top level" tryhards adapt to the game. Also i'm pretty sure you're just jumping on the melee bandwagon and truly don't know what you're talking about.

You know which game has a good roster ?
Brawl.
You know how many characters you see in competitive play ?
2.

 

[Diabolical]

Why not have something new besides "Super Spacies Bros Marth?" Smash 4 has an amazing roster and I want to see these "top level" tryhards adapt to the game. Also i'm pretty sure you're just jumping on the melee bandwagon and truly don't know what you're talking about.

I know a lot about Melee, I don't know much about Smash4. That's why I ask this question. Quite a few people on this thread say it's better than Melee and I ask why? Are you guys trolls or is there a real mechanic that lends itself to fast, rewarding offensive play?

 

[zoyy2007]

I know a lot about Melee, I don't know much about Smash4. That's why I ask this question. Quite a few people on this thread say it's better than Melee and I ask why? Are you guys trolls or is there a real mechanic that lends itself to fast, rewarding offensive play?

So why are you judging smash 4 when you don't know much about it? XD
I know alot about sm4sh and melee

 

[Diabolical]

So why are you judging smash 4 when you don't know much about it? XD
I know alot about sm4sh and melee

I know that the game looks and feels like Brawl from a competitive standpoint. Even playing less seriously Gamexplain have stated that too. It's an improved Brawl, that's fine for most people, but if you are playing seriously why not play Melee? What mechanic is at all catered to the competitive community that makes this game SOOO MUCH BETTER than melee?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's because Sm4sh will be ****ting on everything Melee has done and still does. Think about it from Melee players' perspective for one minute. Please spare 60 seconds for this, I know you are busy defending Smash 4. Melee, at this point, is almost unquestionably better competitively. It built a name for Smash in FGC and was so good it has remained at the top and been one of the most viewed streams of all time and at Evo. Smash 4 is deliberately less competitive and trying to take Melee's spot just because it is new.

It is terrible the way Melee players **** on Brawl and Smash 4 but their anger is easily understandable. Brawl and Sm4sh are designed to be party games. Let them be party games. Melee, as a happy accident, IS more competitive, so it should get the competitive stage. And what happened when Brawl got that competitive stage? Smash community as a whole was **** on and Melee took a huge blow. Now Melee has brought it back and Smash 4 wants to repeat. Melee is **** on for being old by Nintendo and MLG and entities like that which are gatekeepers to the big stages, Melee players turn to Smash community for a little support and are met with people who "just want to have fun"/ kids/ non-competitive players and all these people rush to trample over the progress Melee has made. Melee doesn't have a good commercial home scene anymore. Nobody takes out Melee for casual party play, they take out Brawl, and will take out Sm4sh soon. Melee has earned its spot in competitive circles though. Sm4sh shouldn't take that as well just because it has "Smash" in the title.

Sm4sh had a lot more care for the competitive crowd than Brawl and Melee did by a long shot.