EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?

[BurgersPhD]

Can we please wait until the WiiU version comes out to discuss this sort of stuff? If Smash 4 gets a spot, it will most likely go to the WiiU version.

 

[SleepyK]

only melee
10char

 

[Bakuryu]

Ideally both, but to be honest Smash 4 is way to young, anyone remember when we jumped on Brawl for EVO when it first came out? It was a disaster to say the least. Melee has show it can bring the hype and the players, I'm sure Smash 4 can to, but its to soon to tell.

 

[Black Mantis]

I would vote for smash 4.

 

[Black Mantis]

Vectoring

omfg
this vectoring thing has been debunked.

ok

I want to just lay out the facts here

FROM 0% TO ABOUT 70% KNOCKBACK DIFFERENCE FROM RAGE AND KNOCKBACK INFLUENCE/VECTOR INFLUENCE IS ABSOLUTELY TINY AND UNNOTICEABLE

YOU STILL HAVE YOUR COMBOS

edit: big letters so people will read

 

[GrownCannoli]

I'd like to see both honestly but that wont happen.

I wish Melee would get the nod as it is an amazing game but Smash 4 will get the spot.

MvC2 was the most hype game of all time and WAYYY better than MvC3 but evo had to leave it behind too.

 

[Berble]

Smash 4 hasn't proven itself as a good competitive game at all yet it seems way too early to put it into Evo. Even if it does turn out to be a good competitively the meta will still be very underdeveloped by Evo 2015. Look at what happened when Brawl was thrown into Evo so quickly.

 

[Silent Wolf]

smash 4 is incredibly dull to watch. melee easily

 

[thrik]

Melee, shouldn't even be a question.

 

[Pieisthebest]

Smash 4, we gotta give it a chance.

 

[TheModes]

Out of self-interest, Melee.

 

[WestStar]

Smash 4 is boring for lack of a better term. If we're going to compete with explosive games like Marvel and meticulous thought provoking games like Street Fighter, Melee is the correct choice. It's the only Smash game that can hang with the big FGC games in terms of depth, hype, speed, and even other factors such as drama between players.

Another point for Melee, is that it's streaming popularity at big tournaments is a force to be reckoned with. Sure, Sm4sh has the numbers now, and it will probably be like that for a couple months after the release of both versions, but it will probably die down like Brawl did. Melee broke streaming records, and has a much more dedicated fane base which will receive more views and benefit SRK much more than Sm4sh from a streaming standpoint.

Melee for Evo hands down in my opinion.

 

[Scaremonger]

Everyone saying "we have no clue what smash 4 is going to look like competitively" is incorrect. Options out of dashing along with what we've seen about its shieldstun is going to give it a neutral game exactly like Brawl. Tumble mechanics are going to give it a punish game exactly like Brawl. Vectoring is going to make following up even harder than in Brawl because hit confirm has been thrown out the window. Throws also look much more difficult to follow up on.

Melee is objectively better as a competitive game both for players AND spectators. The latter of which is especially important, because having a Brawl-like game at EVO is going to give a lot of bad press for competitive smash. You don't have to like melee more than smash 4, but saying Smash 4 is going to be as good or better than Melee as a competitive game, or that we should have Smash 4 because we don't know how its going to turn out is objectively incorrect and a pretty unhealthy way of looking at the games. Having Smash 4 at EVO will be very harmful towards the longevity of competitive smash.

 

[2bad]

Melee!

Unless Smash 4 turns heads at the events leading up to EVO I don't think it deserves to even be considered. Melee has proved its worth for over a decade and its still evolving and becoming more dynamic everyday...isn't that what we are looking for in a competitive game? It's even in the title of the tourney: Evolution 2015. It's a no-brainer for me. Unless Smash 4 blows our minds in the months leading to EVO, it HAS to be Melee

 

[Black Mantis]

It's like people are literally ignoring the earlier post I put about Vectoring. Smash 4 has so many insane amount of advantages compared to Melee in terms of getting on the EVO roster its almost laughable to suggest Melee.

 

[Scaremonger]

Smash 4 has so many insane amount of advantages compared to Melee in terms of getting on the EVO roster its almost laughable to suggest Melee.

And those are?

Are any of them about smash 4 being a better competitive game, or are all of these "advantages" just infrastructural things that are going to make it more likely to be played?

And even if the literal vectoring mechanic isn't exactly what Strongbad said it was, it was still proven that the amount of possible unique trajectories is definitely different, and that's what matters.

 

[Cactusblah]

I still can't believe people actually believe melee would ever be at EVO 2015 over Smash 4, or even want that to happen.

 

[NA8C]

I hardly lurk here, as well as post, and I doubt this will be read, but this is the only real reason why Smash 4 should be headlining:

We need to get Smash 4 as much exposure as possible on a big stage, especially if Nintendo is sponsoring the event. Not only is the game new, and not a logistical nightmare... We should and could actually show Nintendo how the game plays, and if anything hopefully get their attention to also further balance(or improve) the game, and see that we are actually interested(rather than regressing into Melee where they won't care thereafter). If we can have a bigger presence, it may influence Nintendo to take action for the game rather than "hit it and split it" after release.

This isn't about Melee vs Smash 4. We need to show interest in the new game to progress the series so hopefully they can begin to take more strides for the franchise at a competitive level. Ultimately, this would be for the better. Other than that, we're pretty much shooting ourselves in the foot if we keep going back to Melee, and disrespecting Nintendo after they actually started to take some interest(inb4 PR stunt).

In my opinion, this is our chance to be able to mold this franchise into something greater overall.

Thanks for reading. This is no way associated in regards to Melee vs Smash 4 hoopla, I personally like the entire series, but we just gotta attempt to show some progress here instead of holding on to our Teddy Bears(Melee).

 

[da K.I.D.]

As a person is heavily invested in the marvel community as well, i have to note that the vast majority of posted here dont actually understand how evo works at all.

Ill give you guys some tips on evo practices

1. Nobodys going to make this melee vs smash 4 decision tomorrow. The evo roster doesnt get decided/announced until late December early january. Thia is the alpha stage of hearing ideas right now.

2. No series gets 2 games at evo on the main stage. Thats just a fact.

3. Evo is NOT just the 8 mainstage events, there are side events for literally every fighting game at evo. Some people go to evo specifically because the tatsunoko vs capcom and skullgirls tournaments are the only times people will ever get to play against human opponents in person. Whichever game doesnt get picked will obviously have a large side tournament. The only difference is it wont be streamed on finals sunday on the main evo streams. Likely it will still get a stream and heavy youtube coverage tho.

4. By the time evo comes around in july of next year, there will MORE than enough time for top players and high level play to emerge and for a ruleset that is quality to be nailed down.

5. If the game has a large scene, the timing of the release has zero bearing on its evo standing. Many games have come out within 6 months of evo and still had the main stage. This past evo, ultra sf4 had only been out for 1 month at the time.

6. Anybody who thinks you cant buy a game into evo is naive. Neather Realm studios put a lot of money into having injustice have not only in evo, but they had a dedicated stream for neather realm games the entire weekend. At this past evo, arc system works put 30 THOUSAND DOLLARS into the blazblue pot for that tournament. And last year the tournament PAID YOU to enter king of fighters. Everyone who entered that tournament got a free kof shirt. All that said, keep in mind... nintendo has VERY deep pockets... and they are clearly pushing smash 4.

Just some facts that people can have a basis when they post now

 

[Black Mantis]

If Nintendo gets involved do you really think they would let 13 year old game gain more attention that their newer one? Melee at EVO 2013 almost didn't happen because of the lack of CRT's. Most modern day fighters can be played on HDTV'S/LCD's. Vectoring has been proven to be a miniscule effect at low percent. Airdodging that induces helplessness is not necessarily or objectively better game design. And let's not forget that chaingrabbing is gone meaning you can't pick Sheik and d throw half the cast for a free win (Bowser vs Sheik is 90-10). No more ledge stalling because we all know what m2k does on the ledge with Sheik. Need I go on?


Edit: plus (like all modern fighters) this game can be patched and updated. Nobody can remove Wobbling from Melee sadly.........

 

[Pheno]

I personally feel like Sm4sh should be the one going into Evo especially since it's the new thing. Plus the game hasn't been released worldwide (yet) and we already have a **** ton of tournaments out all over youtube and twitch. Plus I think it's a lot more visually appealing than the previous games. Being somewhat new into the competitive scene (Started in Brawl), I find it a lot easier to follow something new than watch Melee and try and remember all the inputs these people are inputting.

I mean, if we had to have one or the other, Id vote for Sm4sh.

 

[Zork]

The issue with vectoring is not just that it allows potential combo breaks at higher percents (let's go ahead and assume it's 70+which is still a very big deal). It also takes away depth from the game in general since survival DI is a thing of the past. Now you can simply optimize by just holding towards the stage instead of reacting to different moves and situations differently.

It's too early to say for sure which game should be featured but it's also equally true that we can infer a lot about Smash 4 based off what has been seen and done so far. Keep in mind I like Smash in general, played competitive Brawl and loved it but never had a chance to do so for Melee so I'm not exactly a biased Melee elitist. Here are just the facts:

1. Its neutral game is similar to Brawl except many character's moves can no longer be short hop autocancelled that could be in Brawl so there are less spacing and safe approach options in this regard. Why Nintendo decided to add more lag to moves in general is anyone's guess.

2. Recoveries are better than ever before for a variety of reasons. Gimping is ridiculously rare unless the other player majorly screws up or is playing Little Mac. Outright kills due to vectoring and huge blastzones are also done on average at higher percents than every before.

Anyone that doesn't agree this all makes the game extremely campy should go watch Nietono vs Abadango in Grand Finals of a recent Japanese tournament. First game took about 4 mins and the second game around 5 on TWO stocks, not 3. In general Brawl matches were faster than this (4-6 average on 3 stocks).

This of course is based off the current data we have. Could the meta drastically change in a couple of months? Sure but there's no guarantee of that. Anyone that wants a fast paced, option heavy, very technical game (in general not just character specific) to be at Evo should not pick Smash 4 based off what we know so far.

I really hate to say it but right now Smash 4 if anything, seems like Brawl with less and easier options overall. If you liked Brawl for what it was like I did, you should still enjoy it but 6 years later, it's understandable to expect so much more.

 

[nintyplayer]

If it's not 64 or Smash 4, it's not worth watching IMHO.
I have never been excited by Melee in any way, personally. In fact, I haven't touched a GC controller in years -- but my 64 controllers are still being used at least once a week. 64 is frankly better than Melee in every way except in the amount of characters and stages.
Stages and characters, by the way, that 90% of the competitive community ignores completely. Honestly, when was the last time you saw a good Pichu?

 

[Zork]

With that said, I wholeheartedly agree that if Nintendo is a sponsor at Evo again like last year, Smash 4 is a shoe in. It would make absolutely no business sense for them not to shoe horn it in regardless of what the community wants.

 

[Black Mantis]

Gimping is ridiculously rare

Outright kills due to vectoring and huge blastzones are also done on average at higher percents than every before.

 

[Zork]

I said rare, not that it never happened. Sheik is an exception in Smash 4 as she has actual offensive pressure off stage. Even then that still took more hits off stage to work than in previous Smash games in that very matchup. More importantly that was still an outright kill, not exactly a gimp.

Your second video showed Jigglypuff hitting a rest (which is also easier than ever before apparently). That's always killed relatively early in every Smash game. Once again, early kills can happen, I just don't think it will be common at all.

I could show you 2-3 minute Brawl matches where an MK demolished a low/mid tier off stage. Does that make Brawl super aggro in general?

 

[Scaremonger]

If Nintendo gets involved do you really think they would let 13 year old game gain more attention that their newer one? Melee at EVO 2013 almost didn't happen because of the lack of CRT's. Most modern day fighters can be played on HDTV'S/LCD's. Vectoring has been proven to be a miniscule effect at low percent. Airdodging that induces helplessness is not necessarily or objectively better game design. And let's not forget that chaingrabbing is gone meaning you can't pick Sheik and d throw half the cast for a free win (Bowser vs Sheik is 90-10). No more ledge stalling because we all know what m2k does on the ledge with Sheik. Need I go on?


Edit: plus (like all modern fighters) this game can be patched and updated. Nobody can remove Wobbling from Melee sadly.........

You've just demonstrated that you have an extremely basic understanding of competitive melee. Please don't talk negatively about things you're obviously inexperienced with.

First of all, a game's age is irrelevant. the better game for competitive play and spectating should be the one on the big stage. It is a fact that Melee fits that role much better.

Vectoring has a miniscule effect at low percent, but combos are going to cease to exist after that. And it doesn't matter how much of an effect it has. What matters is the fact that in Melee, there are 37 possible trajectories on any given move. The thing is, only 3 of those matter in the majority of situations (hard DI in either direction or no DI). In smash 4, vectoring changes 3 unique trajectories into 8, almost 3 times as many unique trajectories. This makes confirming a hit extremely difficult.

Airdodging not causing helplessness isn't what makes it bad, it's the fact that you can airdodge out of tumble. Look at Melee Luigi's nair. Since you can use any move immediately out of tumble, comboing luigi is pretty difficult due to his falling speed and because of his frame 3 nair with a massive hitbox below it. In smash 4, everything is floaty, and everyone has an immediate escape option out of tumble. In Melee, many characters, like Falcon, just don't have a good option to get out of tumble, which is why combos can exist even though the character is rarely in hitstun the entire time. In smash 4, every character is going to be Melee Luigi. That is what makes it bad design.

And oh boy, let's bring up that mean old Sheik who can chaingrab "half the cast". Sheik's downthrow cg only works on 5 characters in the S/A tier which is more than half of the cast. One of those is herself, so people rarely CG in that ditto. Another one, Marth, only really works if he DIs away. That said, Sheik would destroy every character she can chaingrab just as easily if she never regrabbed. None of the matchups would change at all. At the highest level of Melee play, almost every grab leads to death, regardless of regrabs. Saying a chaingrab like sheik's breaks the entire game is laughable and highlights a massive hole in your understanding of the game you're condemning.

I could go on about how wrong this post is, but I'm going to stop here.

 

[Zork]

While we're on the subject of things that messes up combos, Megaman, Pikachu and Diddy have been confirmed to be able to completely cancel hitstun with certain moves. As in right after getting hit. This essentially seems to make aerial combos on them impossible.

 

[Myran]

People need to learn to differentiate opinion from fact.

 

[Black Mantis]

First of all, a game's age is irrelevant. the better game for competitive play and spectating should be the one on the big stage. It is a fact that Melee fits that role much better.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion

Sheik's downthrow cg only works on 5 characters in the S/A tier which is more than half of the cast.

Sheik can chain most characters (Bowser, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Ganondorf, Pichu, Roy, Young Link, Mr. Game & Watch, Link, Ness, and Sheik) with her down throw from as little as 0% up to as high as 90%. On other characters it can reliably tech chase to high percents. This however doesn't work in the PAL version of Melee due to her down throw sending her opponents too far forward to grab again (I took that straight from smash wiki. That's more than 5. Also I like how you ignored my wobbling comment. Aren't melee players still debating that to this day?).

 

[Scaremonger]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion

Actually, it is a fact. Melee objectively fits the qualities of a competitive game better than smash 4 does because of the players' ability to apply pressure and aggression safely, and because smash 4 has a lot of rubber banding features. These are objective truths. I never said Melee was an objectively better game, I said it was objectively better as a competitive game. There's a big difference. Nowhere did I say you had to like Melee better, and I don't think that.

Sheik can chain most characters (Bowser, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Ganondorf, Pichu, Roy, Young Link, Mr. Game & Watch, Link, Ness, and Sheik) with her down throw from as little as 0% up to as high as 90%. On other characters it can reliably tech chase to high percents. This however doesn't work in the PAL version of Melee due to her down throw sending her opponents too far forward to grab again (I took that straight from smash wiki. That's more than 5. Also I like how you ignored my wobbling comment. Aren't melee players still debating that to this day?).

First of all, Sheik cannot chaingrab DK.

Second of all, it doesn't matter if she could chaingrab them, because the chaingrab is not what makes the matchups the way they are. So many people point out sheik's chaingrab as the reason Melee is so imbalanced, and that's so incredibly incorrect. Every single matchup (Bowser, Yoshi, Pikachu, Ganon, etc.) that you mentioned would be just as bad if the Sheik player chose not to regrab. I said that in my original comment, yet you seem to have ignored it. Let me repeat it again: "At the highest level of Melee play, almost every grab leads to death, regardless of regrabs." Melee's punish game is strong enough so that every grab (and even hit a lot of the time) leads to the death of the person that got grabbed/hit. There are very few altercations at the highest level of Melee because it's not super common for the other player to make it back into neutral, which requires the person punishing to mess up. Also, even if Sheik as an entire character was removed from the game, low-tiers would still not be viable. Peach, in my opinion, is actually harder for a ton of low-tiers than Sheik is, and DJ Nintendo shares this sentiment about Bowser. It's not like low-tiers are good characters that are oppressed by the big, evil Sheik's chaingrab, they're just characters that lack the options that high-tiers have to approach, punish, and kill. They're bad characters.

Also, I said "5 characters in the S/A tier" not "5 characters", so it's pretty clear that you didn't even read what I said before you spouted all that. I ignored your wobbling comment, because it's equally dumb. Nobody thinks wobbling is broken anymore except Juggleguy and people laugh at him for banning it at TBH all the time.

 

[CriticalRibbon]

Melee. Seriously.

Melee clawed its way back in to EVO thanks to a dedicated community that raised thousands and thousands of dollars to get that spot. Frankly, if it weren't for the melee community fighting for that spot then I doubt either smash game would be seriously considered for EVO 2015 (especially after what happened in 2008). So if sm4sh gets in, it will do so by standing on the shoulders of everything melee has built, and it would be insulting if that happened without the support or approval of the melee community. Let's face it, sm4sh is only being advertised competitively because of the existence of the competitive community (which is mostly melee), and has used melee's infrastructure (commentators, players, etc.) to accomplish this goal. It would be a slap in the face if sm4sh got into EVO over melee without the overwhelming support of the melee community.

I will change my mind if sm4sh turns out to be an amazing game that wins over all the melee players and earns the full support of the melee community. If it can't do that then it absolutely shouldn't usurp that spot.

 

[Zork]

If Melee is not at EVO15 it will cause a much bigger divide in the community than there already is. I see all sorts of posts that are very hostile towards anyone with a hint of negativity about Smash 4. I think it is pretty absurd to suggest that Smash 4 can't have a negative impact on Melee players. The evidence is right here. Melee not being at EVO is a pretty big problem for the Melee scene, and it is entirely due to Smash 4, a game that has no established competitive scene or even a ruleset, and attracts lukewarm interest at best from Melee players at large. It seems like a slap in the face. Especially considering everything that has happened historically between Nintendo and the Melee scene.

I can guarantee this: if Melee is not at EVO15, it will become the rallying cry for all those who dislike Smash 4. The hostility between the two scenes will intensify and will plague all Smash players for years to come. Nobody wants this. The best result is obviously to have both games, which I'm surprised more people aren't supporting. But if it has to be one game, it MUST be Melee.

There is no chance of both games being featured on the main stage. Like any other series, one spot is reserved for it. Especially when it comes to Smash, as it didn't even have a spot two years ago.

So that option is out of the question. I agree with the rest of your post. Whatever happens, a community is going to be extremely salty. It really doesn't matter what anyone does or says to try to prevent this, it is going to happen.

I also think whatever game is featured is going to be the one that's given the most competitive attention by far in the coming years. Melee's popularity especially for stream numbers, sky rocketed during and after Evo time. It started being featured at all major FGC events, something that never used to happen.

 

[vileguy]

I don't play Melee. I played it long ago but never owned a gamecube. I played Brawl a fair amount casually and I have played PM for most of this year both casually and at tournaments with little success. I really enjoy competitive smash and watching it. The thing is, I like both Melee and PM. I enjoy watching both, but I enjoy watching PM more. The exception to this is doubles, which is probably my favorite to watch. For doubles I think both games are pretty equal in terms of entertainment, but Melee might be slightly better to watch.

I think it would be great to have Melee, PM, and Smash 4 at Evo. If I had a choice this would be it. If I have to choose 1 (and PM isn't really an option) I'd choose Smash 4, and here's my reasoning. Melee is a great game and has plenty of tournaments. There will probably be more Melee tournaments than Smash 4 tournaments for at least the near future, and beyond that if Smash 4 isn't as well accepted long-term as I expect. Melee has been at Evo and will probably be there again. Smash 4 on the otherhand is new. If it's not well accepted long-term, it might not have enough interest for the Evo after next. It would be a shame to not see the new game given a chance at the #1 fighting game tournament.

Melee is more established, melee has a large following, and they're very dedicated. If Smash 4 didn't exist, Melee would probably be at Evo and be great. Since Smash 4 does exist, it should go to Evo. If we have to choose between the 2, let's give the new guy a chance and have at least one. I'm biased, we all are basically, but that's my take on it.

 

[Black Mantis]

I never said Melee was an objectively better game, I said it was objectively better as a competitive game.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion

Also, lol at Sheik not being able to chaingrab DK. And you say I don't know what I'm talking about?

 

[Black Mantis]

Ill give you guys some tips on evo practices

1. Nobodys going to make this melee vs smash 4 decision tomorrow. The evo roster doesnt get decided/announced until late December early january. Thia is the alpha stage of hearing ideas right now.

2. No series gets 2 games at evo on the main stage. Thats just a fact.

3. Evo is NOT just the 8 mainstage events, there are side events for literally every fighting game at evo. Some people go to evo specifically because the tatsunoko vs capcom and skullgirls tournaments are the only times people will ever get to play against human opponents in person. Whichever game doesnt get picked will obviously have a large side tournament. The only difference is it wont be streamed on finals sunday on the main evo streams. Likely it will still get a stream and heavy youtube coverage tho.

4. By the time evo comes around in july of next year, there will MORE than enough time for top players and high level play to emerge and for a ruleset that is quality to be nailed down.

5. If the game has a large scene, the timing of the release has zero bearing on its evo standing. Many games have come out within 6 months of evo and still had the main stage. This past evo, ultra sf4 had only been out for 1 month at the time.

6. Anybody who thinks you cant buy a game into evo is naive. Neather Realm studios put a lot of money into having injustice have not only in evo, but they had a dedicated stream for neather realm games the entire weekend. At this past evo, arc system works put 30 THOUSAND DOLLARS into the blazblue pot for that tournament. And last year the tournament PAID YOU to enter king of fighters. Everyone who entered that tournament got a free kof shirt. All that said, keep in mind... nintendo has VERY deep pockets... and they are clearly pushing smash 4.

Just some facts that people can have a basis when they post now

This all of this.

 

[Scaremonger]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion

It's not an opinion though. I've explained why it is like 50 times, but you're clearly too pigheaded to listen to anything I say.

Also, lol at Sheik not being able to chaingrab DK. And you say I don't know what I'm talking about?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbM5iU3Y9QA

Wow, look at all those chaingrabs. Wanna show me some footage of Sheik chaingrabbing DK? His weight and fallspeed makes him not able to be chaingrabbed. You can techchase regrab, but you cannot chaingrab DK.

Also, have you considered that Ganon can chaingrab Sheik right back? Like 0 to 90%? Ganon also has a death chaingrab (like 12-140% and the kill-percent throws combo into kill moves) on spacies, even though it's difficult. Shouldn't those matchups be super in his favor though because he can chaingrab them to ridiculous percents? No, because chaingrabs don't ****ing matter. Quit talking out of your ass, dude. You're showing over and over that you have very little experience with competitive melee, but you refuse to quit spouting bull**** about things you don't know. Just stop.

 

[CriticalRibbon]

I still can't believe people actually believe melee would ever be at EVO 2015 over Smash 4, or even want that to happen.

If you don't understand why people still want to play melee, then you should check out a few resources such as the documentary or just a list of differences between the games. Melee has a lot of things to offer that haven't been present in the more recent games, and has really evolved to another level. If you prefer sm4sh over melee then fair enough, but it's impossible to look at sm4sh as a true sequel (let alone a superior one) when they are so very different, and this makes it easy to understand why someone can like one and not the other.

Melee is what got smash into EVO in the first place, and then back into EVO. The scene for it is the largest it has ever been, and is thriving to the point where the only reason it wouldn't get into EVO again is if sm4sh replaces it. We shouldn't be discussing having it replace melee when it doesn't even have a competitive community, let alone one that could rival melees.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You've just demonstrated that you have an extremely basic understanding of competitive melee. Please don't talk negatively about things you're obviously inexperienced with.

First of all, a game's age is irrelevant. the better game for competitive play and spectating should be the one on the big stage. It is a fact that Melee fits that role much better.

Vectoring has a miniscule effect at low percent, but combos are going to cease to exist after that. And it doesn't matter how much of an effect it has. What matters is the fact that in Melee, there are 37 possible trajectories on any given move. The thing is, only 3 of those matter in the majority of situations (hard DI in either direction or no DI). In smash 4, vectoring changes 3 unique trajectories into 8, almost 3 times as many unique trajectories. This makes confirming a hit extremely difficult.

Airdodging not causing helplessness isn't what makes it bad, it's the fact that you can airdodge out of tumble. Look at Melee Luigi's nair. Since you can use any move immediately out of tumble, comboing luigi is pretty difficult due to his falling speed and because of his frame 3 nair with a massive hitbox below it. In smash 4, everything is floaty, and everyone has an immediate escape option out of tumble. In Melee, many characters, like Falcon, just don't have a good option to get out of tumble, which is why combos can exist even though the character is rarely in hitstun the entire time. In smash 4, every character is going to be Melee Luigi. That is what makes it bad design.

And oh boy, let's bring up that mean old Sheik who can chaingrab "half the cast". Sheik's downthrow cg only works on 5 characters in the S/A tier which is more than half of the cast. One of those is herself, so people rarely CG in that ditto. Another one, Marth, only really works if he DIs away. That said, Sheik would destroy every character she can chaingrab just as easily if she never regrabbed. None of the matchups would change at all. At the highest level of Melee play, almost every grab leads to death, regardless of regrabs. Saying a chaingrab like sheik's breaks the entire game is laughable and highlights a massive hole in your understanding of the game you're condemning.

I could go on about how wrong this post is, but I'm going to stop here.

Airdodging to try and escape combos is very punishable in smash 4, a lot more with the added lag it has now. Heck it doesn't even stop a lot of the stuff people have been doing combo wise.

Shiek's CG is a bigger deal than what you are listing here, and yes she does it on the ditto along with being able to tech chase off it for most of the rest.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I want Melee. We worked so hard to get that spot, and it was so worth it. I find Melee to be the most exciting to watch and play. Definitely much deeper than any Smash game, or most fighting games in general.

But...it's pretty clear that Smash 4 will have better odds of making it this year. Nintendo is gonna push for it, and EVO leans more toward new games. It'll also be easier to set up than Melee with LCDs and all that.

I'd prefer Melee a lot more. I feel like we deserve that spot. But the facts say Melee's chances are slim this year in particular.