EVO 2015: Melee or Smash 4?

[Seiniyta]

This thread I feel is 6 months too early. The turnout for smash 4 could be huge if Nintendo promotes Evo2015 and smash4. (not sure if they would do that, but they seem to be heading that way).

Melee is the established game, but Smash 4 could produce a lot more surprises with the growing metagame. I personally would love to see Smash 4 be the main (if it even has to be a melee OR smash 4, I'd prefer both being equally represented) game for next Evo and then for the following to be adjusted regarding scene size.

But, I feel this discussion is pointless as of right now, Evo is still ways off.

 

[Oatkeeper]

All these people saying "Don't discount Smash 4's competitive viability, you haven't played it yet!" are being kinda stupid because, well, neither have you. Just because you are optimistic does not make your opinion any more valid than the people dissing it.

Also I want Smash 4 cause it's fun.

Melee is fun too, so why shouldn't that be at EVO? I have no doubts that Smash 4 will probably end up being the game at EVO but considering how Melee has just come out of a massive slump I'd be disappointed to see it leave so soon.

 

[Myran]

All these people saying "Don't discount Smash 4's competitive viability, you haven't played it yet!" are being kinda stupid because, well, neither have you. Just because you are optimistic does not make your opinion any more valid than the people dissing it.


Melee is fun too, so why shouldn't that be at EVO? I have no doubts that Smash 4 will probably end up being the game at EVO but considering how Melee has just come out of a massive slump I'd be disappointed to see it leave so soon.

I never said Melee wasn't fun. I just think Smash 4 is more fun.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

I never said Melee wasn't fun. I just think Smash 4 is more fun.

Smash 4 may be fun in your own opinion, but that doesn't mean that it is more competitively viable then Melee is or ever will be. Both should be a part of EVO's lineup, but it should Melee if its going to be either.

Its hard to compete with such a perfect mistake

 

[Myran]

Smash 4 may be fun in your own opinion, but that doesn't mean that it is more competitively viable then Melee is or ever will be. Both should be a part of EVO's lineup, but it should Melee if its going to be either.

Its hard to compete with such a perfect mistake

I have no desire to debate the competitive viability of smash games when compared to each other for the 10th time, so I'll just stop here.

 

[pkblaze]

Melee. It's a tried and true title that has an ongoing storyline with Evo. I want to see Mango defend his Evo title again.

Smash 4 is more different from Melee(smash 2, if you will) on a mechanical level than Street Fighter 2 and 4. I don't see anything guaranteeing that it'll be this amazing title. I think it'll still be hype regardless because it definitely has what it takes to be a competitive title, but I don't look at Smash 4 and think "this is a game that, purely by merit of what we understand in the mechanics, deserves to be at Evo as a replacement for Melee."

 

[Shloub]

Melee is so perfect…

 

[TunaAndBacon]

Melee is so perfect…

Its heartbreaking to know we'll never get another D:

 

[victinivcreate1]

This is how I look at it

Brawl didn't get actually stable till around 2011-12. When it got stable, this is when people realized that Snake was not as gdlk as people thought, and people started realizing how good ICs and Olimar were.

What makes people think that Smash 4 will have a stable ruleset in EIGHT MONTHS, considering the amount of revamping that Sakurai has done to the game.

 

[009soulmaster]

Because Melee is the much better competitive game. That's a fact[/quote ]

lol no. Smash 4 is a better competitive game. Its more balanced. More even. More appealing to everyone. but still both games should be in EVO. if a game can two versions of itself in there. both smash games deserve the spots.

 

[zozo]

This entire thread is a giant circlejerk between Melee elitists and people wanting to see something new. Nothing will get solved, no one will reach an agreement, and it will never end. I vote this thread get locked. It's pointless, and it's way too early to be talking about EVO 2015 when Smash 4 isn't even out yet.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I'm not calling you completely wrong, but from what Smash 4 offers and what Melee offers, Melee is the game that will likely drive more hype. First off many players (including some of the top players of previous games who are playing Smash 4) are generally agreeing that a two stock, 5 minute ruleset is good. Their reasoning is that 3 stocks would take too long. Now why would they say that?
-edgeguarding is very difficult now, recoveries are very good, and Vectoring also increases survival
-you have less to work with in the neutral game, making spacing a lot harder and camping out until the opponent gets pressured by the time/or gets bored and rushes in is one of the only viable options you have.
-Combos are not as threatening, because of the recoveries and vectoring


Two stocks is nothing. Thats not exactly hype. You can't make comebacks with two stocks, because thats kinda easy. Two stocking someone is not a real achievement either.

Edgeguarding is not exactly there either. Making very early gimps is a thing of the past.

 

[pkblaze]

Smash 4 is going to be the answer. Especially if Nintendo is sponsoring EVO again this year, which they will.

It's a one-sided discussion if we're talking about EVO 2015. Probably even EVO 2016.

I agree with this. I think Nintendo is gonna be pulling a few strings to make smash 4 the game that goes to Evo.

I cast my vote for melee cuz I feel like corporate backing shouldn't get a game into Evo that doesn't deserve it, and I want to see Smash 4 prove itself before it goes to Evo.

 

[009soulmaster]

I'm not calling you completely wrong, but from what Smash 4 offers and what Melee offers, Melee is the game that will likely drive more hype. First off many players (including some of the top players of previous games who are playing Smash 4) are generally agreeing that a two stock, 5 minute ruleset is good. Their reasoning is that 3 stocks would take too long. Now why would they say that?
-edgeguarding is very difficult now, recoveries are very good, and Vectoring also increases survival
-you have less to work with in the neutral game, making spacing a lot harder and camping out until the opponent gets pressured by the time/or gets bored and rushes in is one of the only viable options you have.
-Combos are not as threatening, because of the recoveries and vectoring


Two stocks is nothing. Thats not exactly hype. You can't make comebacks with two stocks, because thats kinda easy. Two stocking someone is not a real achievement either.

Edgeguarding is not exactly there either. Making very early gimps is a thing of the past.

Why cant it be both? two stocks for pools and 3 for the finals. it doesnt have to be just one set throughout the tournament

 

[CriticalRibbon]

lol no. Smash 4 is a better competitive game. Its more balanced. More even. More appea]

Rock paper scissors is perfectly balanced. Obviously it is the best fighting game of all time.

 

[009soulmaster]

Melee is so perfect…

despite how unbalaced and flawed the entire game is. right. keep on believing that.

 

[Oatkeeper]

So is any fan of Melee who is posting facts about both games an elitist now, or...?

 

[Kadano]

As someone who loves Melee and doesn’t care about Smash 4 at all, I have to say …

Smash 4.

Why?
1. Logistically easier, LCD monitors can be used
2. Nintendo will prefer and push it
3. There have been so ridiculously many Melee top 5 sets in the last few years that huge tournaments aren’t scarce any longer. Smash 4 will feel fresh to the majority of combatants and viewers (though I personally belong in neither).

 

[Kim Steinbach-Reif]

Melee is the safest and most best bet imo.

 

[augustoflores]

this kind of discussion should not be discussed until after Apex and the rest of the other lesser known tourneys being held on the road to Evo. we haven't gauged enough how the new smash fairs with regular tournament play, and i feel like apex is the best time pre evo to gauge the community's stance on the subject.

is there any hurry to have this discussion right now? and why?

 

[TobiasXK]

This entire thread is a giant circlejerk between Melee elitists and people wanting to see something new. Nothing will get solved, no one will reach an agreement, and it will never end. I vote this thread get locked. It's pointless, and it's way too early to be talking about EVO 2015 when Smash 4 isn't even out yet.

well for one thing, this thread is a poll—not some kind of roundtable discussion that's trying to solve something.

for another thing, Mr. Wizard is currently seeking opinions for what game he should be running at EVO 2k15, and he's referring people to this thread.

so.

 

[da K.I.D.]

As a to, i just want to say that being able to play smash on monitors laglessly without spending an extra hundred dollars and an hour setting each tv up with goofy adapters is a MASSIVE selling point for running smash 4 over melee.

That way, evo doesnt have to rely on us to show up and set up tvs the night before. Plus evo can buy wii us in bulk and provide those as well.

For the sake of uniformity and professionalism, smash 4 has a large leg up on melee in this regard

 

[freesubs]

I want to see Melee at EVO again next year

 

[hectohertz]

im not reading through this thread, because it mostly seems to be either people saying
"you guys who want melee are stuck in the past / refuse to move on with the times" or "sm4sh is inevitably worse than melee"

here's my take and its something ive been saying for a while now. there's a reason we're still playing melee. those of us who are committed to it, truly view it as a perfect game, a game we want to keep playing for the rest of our lives. its like chess. there are newer games, variants, competitors, sequels, but we want to play the gave we love, because we still enjoy working/playing it, and after 12 years we're not done expanding the metagame.

the big lesson is that if there are a community of people who want to play a game, they should be allowed to. trying to prosletize people to switch from game to another, creates splintering and rifts the community like what happened in 08. this kind of behavior is toxic, and generates huge amounts of animosity.

i think its probably better to look at smash games a genre. sm4sh doesn't invalidate melee, or vise versa. theyre different animals. evo should have both if possible. regardless, they should each be considered for inclusion on their own merits. this false dichotomy thing is dangerous.

 

[JTheElfMan]

If Melee is not at EVO15 it will cause a much bigger divide in the community than there already is. I see all sorts of posts that are very hostile towards anyone with a hint of negativity about Smash 4. I think it is pretty absurd to suggest that Smash 4 can't have a negative impact on Melee players. The evidence is right here. Melee not being at EVO is a pretty big problem for the Melee scene, and it is entirely due to Smash 4, a game that has no established competitive scene or even a ruleset, and attracts lukewarm interest at best from Melee players at large. It seems like a slap in the face. Especially considering everything that has happened historically between Nintendo and the Melee scene.

I can guarantee this: if Melee is not at EVO15, it will become the rallying cry for all those who dislike Smash 4. The hostility between the two scenes will intensify and will plague all Smash players for years to come. Nobody wants this. The best result is obviously to have both games, which I'm surprised more people aren't supporting. But if it has to be one game, it MUST be Melee.

 

[Theguesst]

The way I see it there are pros and cons to each of the games being there. Ideally you would run both, but that is apparently too hard for the person running evo this year. Looking at evo itself it's a celebration of fighting games featuring flashy gameplay and smart decisions by top players that everyone in the FGC can enjoy. This is what I feel the games would bring to the table.

Melee at evo:
Big number of turnouts, melee unique players, new game pushed aside to die in tournies, entertaining to FGC crowd, might be welcomed back next year.

Smash 4 at evo:
BigGER number of turnouts, smash 4 unique and NEW players, giving the new game a chance, nintendo sponsorship, duller to FGC crowd (think brawl 2008, audible booing.), smash may not come back next year like 2008 brawl (possibly no melee or smash 4 at future evos ever again).

 

[Oatkeeper]

Do you really think if Smash 4 doesn't do well we'll never see Melee at EVO again? Melee scene is way too big for that to happen, Melee will just come back the year after.

 

[Theguesst]

Do you really think if Smash 4 doesn't do well we'll never see Melee at EVO again? Melee scene is way too big for that to happen, Melee will just come back the year after.

Going purely by history I do not. In a land of marvel and street fighter, smash would take a back seat.

 

[Stom]

I am extremely indifferent, to be perfectly honest. At this point we don't really know if MLG (the other mega huge major for gaming tournaments in general) is hosting Melee again, so Melee's presence at the really huge major tournaments is kind of up in the air. If I'm going to be honest, I feel like Melee will ALWAYS (as long as a scene for Melee exists) will have grassroots majors, which I'm not entirely sure Smash 4 will have also. Obviously we have absolutely no idea at this point, but personally I think it's safe to say the hardcore grassroot melee TO's will prioritize Melee over all else. So why not have Smash 4 at EVO? HOWEVER, from the intense hype EVO's '13 and '14 and how much they really reinvigorated interest and numbers in Melee, it's hard to imagine EVO now without melee, especially given the growing entrant numbers and high viewership it has brought EVO in the past. So I think I'll probably vote for Melee if given the opportunity but I don't see myself shedding any tears if Smash 4 is chosen instead. Of course the ideal situation would be both, but we have no idea how likely/unlikely that is.

 

[Tagxy]

Keep it together guys, dont let EVO divide.

Interesting opinions. Keep them coming!

BBR member here using a different account. Most opinions on how "good" or "bad" one game or another is are self-servingly false and misinformed, and you wouldnt hear them say any of this if not forced to pick between one or another. This isn't the best place to gauge the whole of the smash community, and looking through this thread most people havent been around long enough to (or simply do not) understand nuances of the various games or community. I would say Im most in agreement with Toph.

I think this thread is counterproductive, especially this early in the game - there isn't even an established tournament scene for Smash 4 yet, the Wii U version (which presumably will be the game to appear on the EVO stage) isn't even out yet, and so people are making uninformed votes at best and spewing inflammatory garbage at worst.

Rather, I'd like to focus on how to bring the scenes together at this point and try to push for having both games at EVO. From experience, the set of people who compete in Melee are relatively disjoint from the set of people who are interested in competing in Smash 4, and thus I feel like having both games at EVO could bring in a HUGE number of entrants. Let's not forget that Melee has shattered one stream record already and ran nearly 1k unique entrants last year. Smash 4 is going to be enormous as well, since there'll be a huge influx of new casual players.

All we can hope to do in arguing Melee vs. Smash 4 this early in the game is making uneducated insults, which is what this thread seems to have devolved into pretty quickly. Without getting into the specifics, nearly all the comments in here attempting to downplay either Melee or Smash 4 have been oversimplified.

 

[Kude]

Definitely Melee. The competitive scene is more fleshed out right now, so watching it will be more satisfying. it took melee what, 12 years to get into EVO? Let Sm4sh get a year or two to develop before it goes big.

 

[Project-]

I don't understand how anyone can argue a case for Smash 4 when the Wii U version isn't even out yet. Some people calling it a better competitive game than Melee, which has been one of the biggest games at Evo in the last couple of years and is proven as a successful competitive game on a big stage, is frankly a joke.

Then there's the calls in this thread for Smash 4 to be in, simply to give the game a chance to evolve competitively. Again, putting it in place of a game as popular and proven as Melee is ridiculous, especially on the biggest fighting game stage, Evo. If you want Smash 4 to have its chance, then there are other ways venues to do it, until it has proven itself as a competitive game.

At this point, Melee should be the only answer.

 

[obscurica]

Sm4sh's going to be far less of a logistical nightmare for EVO, and will probably get the vote. It is REALLY unusual for an event to cater so heavily to the outdated tech Melee tournaments need to operate -- there were cattle calls last time for CRTs, consoles, controllers, etc down to the very last minute, if you'll all remember.

Now that's fine for a Melee-only event, but EVO isn't Melee-only now, is it? From a purely pragmatic basis, nobody should be surprised if the LCD-compatible game gets the nod.

There's also the fact that "OMG NEW GAME" is overstated when there's many months left for TOs to figure out a workable system for Sm4sh at EVO. Granted, yes -- the game's meta is going to be underevolved compared to Melee. But so's every new game that makes it to that stage. Not a very sound argument in light of historical precedence. Conversely, not having Sm4sh at EVO potentially threatens to stillborn the scene before it even has a chance to prove itself. Nobody here's stupid enough to understate the symbolic importance of an EVO spotlight -- some, however, haven't considered the consequence of removing it on Year One of all times.

This isn't Brawl. It shares some mechanics, might even share some of its flaws, but it sure as hell isn't Brawl. Give it its fair shot. And it's EVO precedence anyhow.

 

[S2]

I don't think opinions on which game is "better" is even relevant to the EVO discussion. Most obviously because saying something is "better" or "more hype" is subjective.

Comparisons to Brawl in EVO '08 aren't fair and don't reflect either the Smash or the FGC community at all currently. There was a general anti-Smash Bros sentiment among players of other fighting games at the time. Brawl was also played with a ruleset vastly different than the community standard leading to a lot of Brawl players not wanting to support it's presence at EVO. Put in perspective how much the FGC has changed since then, SF4 came out and revitalized the genre. Melee got featured at EVO with a ruleset our community actually liked. The climate and relations between Smash and the rest of the FGC community isn't anything like '08 and there's been a lot more cross-pollination between players of Smash and other fighters. This entire thread exists because Mr. Wizard is polling this community for our opinions.

I've already made a previous post indicating I'd choose Sm4sh if we can only have one. It is not because I feel it's better than Melee. It's because it's new and there is a lot of potential that goes with that. New games bring in more interest from those outside of the community. No other game franchise at EVO sacrifices the potential of a new or current iteration in favor of a more technical or established older game. Arguments that Melee is more deserving due to having an established metagame and community is ridiculous in the context of EVO. If that were the case then SF4 would have never been picked up due to Third Strike's established community and it being more technical than 4.

I'd like to see both at EVO. Pushing Smash 4 out of it's first EVO year in favor of any older iteration is self-serving to our love of Melee. And it comes at the cost of the growth and exposure a new game will give the Smash community as a whole.

 

[ShrieK1295]

I think it's hilarious how this thread is mostly people who have been on this site for 1 month saying that Smash4 is going to be bigger and newer so it should be in Evo.

Smash4 is a game for casuals that has no guarantee to bring in a thousand people like Melee will. Evo means a lot to Melee players, who are hardcore competitors at this point. The game is also way faster than Smash4 will ever be. I don't need Smash4 setting back the image of Smash in the FGC again, like how Brawl was a laughing stock.

Anyway, I want Melee at Evo because I think it's guaranteed to bring in the numbers and is always hype. If it's not at Evo, well, it still has a crap ton of tournaments, so we'll get by anyway.

 

[socandrewcer]

Smash 4 has my vote

 

[TheFawz]

Definitely way more interested in seeing Smash 4. Not really because I don't want to see melee (although we've seen enough of it by now IMO) but more because we haven't seen anywhere near enough of Smash 4.

I really hope the WiiU version of Smash 4 comes out in time and isn't a nightmare to set-up, as that would be the most fun version to take part in (Gamecube controllers!) and to watch (Dem HD grayfics)

 

[Scamp]

Interesting opinions. Keep them coming!

I agree with this.

 

[Kukulza]

The hardest part about this decision is that we really know almost nothing about Smash 4, yet we have to make a decision now, months before its release, as to whether it's fit for the biggest FGC tournament of the year. As it stands, I agree with the idea of having both at EVO, allowing Smash 4 to develop into whatever it may-- good or bad-- and still guarantee a great competitive experience from Melee.

Given circumstances, I really think this would be best.

 

[Espi]

Melee is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more fun to watch.