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Evo 2013 Ruleset

MrWizard

EVO Founder
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
67
So Melee is back at Evo after a 6 year haitus, and we are happy to have it back. We obviously want to use the ruleset that makes the most sense and is widely accepted by the community.

Lets start the discussion about what that ruleset should be so that we can update the Evo rules page with the information.

We will be using CRT's and Nintendo Gamecubes.

Hopefully we will let the Ice Climbers do their thing!

Post Away!
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
http://www.apex-series.com/rules/melee/

Here is the most common rulset. There's only 2 major rules which need discussing.

One is "Dave's Stupid Rule", every single tournament uses this rule, but there is a modified version as well which has become more of the common rule over the old one. Not sure how you want to decide which to use.

The other is the ice climber stuff.

Unless i'm not thinking right, those are the only rules which people can't decide on. Everything else is pretty much universal.


ALSO, i highly suggest adding a rule involving how long button checks can be.



Wizard, feel free to either message me on facebook (Travis Segura), twitter (@trahh) or here if you want some help with this stuff. Been a part of this community for too long, I can get ahold of specific people you may need as well.
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
7,443
Location
Greensboro, NC
for 2/3 there should be 1 stage ban. for 3/5 there should be no stage bans, and you can't go to the last stage you won on. that's my opinion.
 

R3N0

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,899
http://www.apex-series.com/rules/melee/

Here is the most common rulset. There's only 2 major rules which need discussing.

One is "Dave's Stupid Rule", every single tournament uses this rule, but there is a modified version as well which has become more of the common rule over the old one. Not sure how you want to decide which to use.

The other is the ice climber stuff.

Unless i'm not thinking right, those are the only rules which people can't decide on. Everything else is pretty much universal.


ALSO, i highly suggest adding a rule involving how long button checks can be.

This. The above link to the ruleset is the most recent/ common rule set that has been used.

Modified Dave's Stupid Rule (MDSR) is that you cannot take the opponent back to the stage you last won on. So if you win on stage A, lose on stage B, you cannot take them back to stage A until you win on a different stage.


Ice Climbers w/ wobbling is pretty wild. I haven't been to a tournament with wobbling in a while.

Also, Melee Teams?
 

Keitaro

Banned via Administration
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
11,941
Location
Piscataway, NJ
I personally think Wobbling should be banned. Apex's ruleset sounds best.

With the Modified Dave's Stupid Rule on too.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Button checks limited to 30 second/1 min.

Wobbling Legal.

Modified DSR.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
Ice Climbers w/ wobbling is pretty wild. I haven't been to a tournament with wobbling in a while.

Also, Melee Teams?
ROM 5 had wobbling legal.

I also believe that the clause "can't pick the last stage you won on" needs to exclude instances where you win on your opponent's counterpick but that's a discussion for another day.
 

R3N0

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,899
If you win your opponent counterpick.. then you can't go back to the counterpick!
 

Dodger

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
621
Wobbling is still controversial? Huh. I think it should be allowed, but then, what do I know?
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
Not to take away from the work IC players put in to learn their infinites, but i'm not sure how good this would look for EVO. Not sure if it would be a bad or a good thing, but i feel it's important to think about. We are gonna have ALOT of new spectators and it may or may not be a good idea to show that part of the game, we don't wanna give any bad impressions. Again, not taking away from the skill it takes to wobble nor do i think it's wrong.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
If you win your opponent counterpick.. then you can't go back to the counterpick!
Yeah, I just think it's dumb that, for example, m2k can counterpick FD, and then if it takes his opponent 2 tries to win on his counterpick, m2k can pick FD again.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
2,287
Location
vegas baby
Eh, people like seeing those. Wobbling is not that entertaining to see.

Generally I agree it's not about the spectators, but this is EVO man. Impressions seem very very very important here.
 

R3N0

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,899
Yeah, I just think it's dumb that, for example, m2k can counterpick FD, and then if it takes his opponent 2 tries to win on his counterpick, m2k can pick FD again.
He can because the point of counter-picking is that you get a slight advantage because it is your stage choice (in theory). If you can't win on your own counter-pick, then this is fair imo.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
COUNTERPICKING
1. The winner of the previous game chooses their character.
2. The loser of the previous game chooses their character.
3. The winner of the previous game bans a stage.
4. The loser of the previous game chooses from the remaining stages.
- Random is not a legal counterpick.
- Bans are temporary and do not carry over to the next the game's stage selection.
- Bones's Stupid Rule: A player cannot ban the same stage twice in a row.
As a brief explanation, my ruleset gets rid of instances where a player can win on his opponent's counterpick and repick his counterpick. I break it down very clearly in my full ruleset thread.


Below is a full explanation of how my rule fixes the issues that come about from DSR. Reno, your point was actually specifically addressed in the bolded paragraph. I'd like to hear everyone's feedback, so feel free to bump my thread. ;)

The issue with DSR was that depending on the order you won your games in (and subsequently, which stages you won on), you would be able to cp different stages a different number of times. This was first brought to my attention at Zenith when PP had to play on FD vs. M2K twice in GF2 because M2K "broke serve" by winning on PS. This basically meant that it was more important to win on your own cps than it should be. Winning on the opponent's cp and losing on yours should leave the rest of the set playing the same as winning on your cp and losing on theirs.

So the root of the problem is DSR is based off of what stages you win on. BSR addresses the issue by basing stage selection off of the independent choice of the player regardless of whether they win the cp or not. If M2K wins on PP's cp, it doesn't mean he instantly gets to repick because PP can still ban it (unless he banned it last time). The number of times you can play a stage is limited because players are in control of when they play the harder cps. Here's a test set of Falco vs. Marth to show how it would play out based on each ruleset (cps based on my personal beliefs of which stages are best):

DSR
- They strike to BF and Falco wins [1-0]
- Marth cps FD and wins [1-1]
- Falco cps DL and wins [2-1]
- Marth cps PS and wins [2-2]
- Falco cps FoD, and they play it out (slight favor for Falco because he won game 1)

No problem when they alternate wins, but when they don't however...

- They strike to BF and Falco wins [1-0]
- Marth cps FD and wins [1-1]
- Falco cps DL and LOSES [2-1] <-------- Because of this match...
- Falco cps DL and wins [2-2]
- Marth cps FD AGAIN and wins [2-3] <--- ...Marth gets to cp FD twice

This means not only did Falco fall behind in the cps for losing, but he guaranteed his opponent can repick his best cp. This IS a fair ruleset because Falco got to cp his best cp twice, so Marth did as well. The problem with this is that DSR does nothing to influence the set. The set is played identically when you have no bans at all. Players going back on forth on the hardest cps not only makes the first match disproportionately more important, but it has less stage diversity because each player is just scrambling for their best cp.


With BSR:

- They strike to BF and Falco wins [1-0]
----- Falco bans FD
- Marth cps PS and wins [1-1]
----- Marth bans DL
- Falco cps FoD and wins [2-1]
----- Falco bans PS <------------ Can't reban FD
- Marth cps FD and wins [2-2]
----- Marth bans FoD <---------- Can't reban DL
- Falco cps DL

Set 1's Stage Order w/ DSR: BF, FD, DL, PS, FoD
Set 1's Stage Order w/ BSR: BF, PS, FoD, FD, DL

Same stages, but the order is swapped (the +2 cps get swapped with the +1s).



Second set with BSR:

- They strike to BF and Falco wins [1-0]
----- Falco bans FD
- Marth cps PS and wins [1-1]
----- Marth bans DL
- Falco cps FoD and LOSES [1-2]
----- MARTH bans FoD <------------ Can't reban DL
- Falco cps DL and wins [2-2]
----- Falco bans PS <---------- Can't reban FD
- Marth cps FD

Set 2's Stage Order w/ DSR: BF, FD, DL, DL, FD
Set 2's Stage Order w/ BSR: BF, PS, FoD, DL, FD

MORE stage diversity, but the cps are still balanced, and the order of victories and the stages they take place on are no longer relevant. Hopefully this is all laid out clearly enough. This stuff can get really confusing even if you already understand it, so if anyone needs clarification, lmk. Disclaimer: I realize these are just hypotheticals and that stage choices don't usually play out this way, but even when players have differing opinions about what stages are the best for them, their inherent value to the player making the choice are the same so a player will never be able to complain about the stages that got played.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
He can because the point of counter-picking is that you get a slight advantage because it is your stage choice (in theory). If you can't win on your own counter-pick, then this is fair imo.
Let me rephrase: DSR modified makes it so the order that you won the matches in matters.

So, we've established that if m2k wins on FD and his opponent takes 2 attempts to win on his cp, then m2k can pick FD again. But what about the case where his opponent wins on his cp on the first attempt? Then m2k has to pick a different stage, and thus this prevents him from using FD twice in the same set.

I obviously agree with the theory behind counterpicking but it seems like double jeopardy that if you lose on your own counterpick, you enable your opponent to pick his best stage for a second time. It just seems to defeat the whole purpose of the "modified" part of the rule.
 

MrWizard

EVO Founder
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
67
I do remember people got hype in 2007 when someone hit a ice climbers infinite on stage!
 

R3N0

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,899
Let me rephrase: DSR modified makes it so the order that you won the matches in matters.

So, we've established that if m2k wins on FD and his opponent takes 2 attempts to win on his cp, then m2k can pick FD again. But what about the case where his opponent wins on his cp on the first attempt? Then m2k has to pick a different stage, and thus this prevents him from using FD twice in the same set.

I obviously agree with the theory behind counterpicking but it seems like double jeopardy that if you lose on your own counterpick, you enable your opponent to pick his best stage for a second time. It just seems to defeat the whole purpose of the "modified" part of the rule.
MDSR only has a real impact on 2/3s imo.. in a 3/5 situation ...idk I see where you are coming from. I still prefer my method obvi ;p
 

wqqqqwrt

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
53
I do remember people got hype in 2007 when someone hit a ice climbers infinite on stage!
Ya cmon people. I get mad hype when I see IC's get off. Wobbling requires execution and it doesn't last that long. It's like to 100 or something then they die.
 

Juggleguy

Smash Grimer
Premium
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
9,354
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
So Melee is back at Evo after a 6 year haitus, and we are happy to have it back. We obviously want to use the ruleset that makes the most sense and is widely accepted by the community.

Lets start the discussion about what that ruleset should be so that we can update the Evo rules page with the information.

We will be using CRT's and Nintendo Gamecubes.

Hopefully we will let the Ice Climbers do their thing!

Post Away!
Thanks for the opportunity and for letting CRT TVs make a return. Not sure if anyone else has said it yet in this thread, but we really, really appreciate that.

Regarding Ice Climbers, I assume you're talking about wobbling. My personal stance is that wobbling isn't a "game-breaking" technique at high levels of play by any means, but that it should still be banned from tournaments anyway for a couple reasons:

1. for non-high-level players, the presence of wobbling transforms the game into a very foreign one that revolves too heavily around landing a grab or avoiding a grab
2. historically, the presence of wobbling has undisputedly discouraged new players and even spectators from participating -- in 2007 it was a fairly new technique, so people may have gotten hyped about it, but let's just say wobbling has gotten very old very quickly since then

The Apex 2013 ruleset (http://www.apex-series.com/rules/melee/) is the best and most comprehensive one I've seen, and I don't think I'd make any major changes to it at all. The pausing rule might need to be re-visited, but that's a discussion for later. I highly recommend the Apex 2013 ruleset.
 

Habefiet

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 22, 2011
Messages
442
Location
Minneapolis, MN
IMO Wobbling should always be legal :p

Whatever version of DSR gets used, make sure every player has it memorized.

We should figure this out quickly, let's get the MBR all up in here.

MrWizard, thanks for giving us the opportunity to earn a spot at Evo again and for being so ready to work with the community.
 

TaFoKiNtS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,027
Most will disagree with this. I understand the average set for other FGs are shorter and would like to propose 3 stock/5 minute matches for melee to keep time constraints in mind. BO3 though
 

MrWizard

EVO Founder
Joined
Feb 9, 2005
Messages
67
Thanks for the opportunity and for letting CRT TVs make a return. Not sure if anyone else has said it yet in this thread, but we really, really appreciate that.

Regarding Ice Climbers, I assume you're talking about wobbling. My personal stance is that wobbling isn't a "game-breaking" technique at high levels of play by any means, but that it should still be banned from tournaments anyway for a couple reasons:

1. for non-high-level players, the presence of wobbling transforms the game into a very foreign one that revolves too heavily around landing a grab or avoiding a grab
2. historically, the presence of wobbling has undisputedly discouraged new players and even spectators from participating -- in 2007 it was a fairly new technique, so people may have gotten hyped about it, but let's just say wobbling has gotten very old very quickly since then

The Apex 2013 ruleset (http://www.apex-series.com/rules/melee/) is the best and most comprehensive one I've seen, and I don't think I'd make any major changes to it at all. The pausing rule might need to be re-visited, but that's a discussion for later. I highly recommend the Apex 2013 ruleset.
Thanks for your input. Just to clarify a few things, we have very specific rules for pausing the game. Any pausing of the game will result in a disqualification. There will be no exceptions for any game in our tournament.

Secondly Evo is a world event. At this stage, I don't think newcomers will shy away from playing the game if they see wobbling at Evo. If they like the game, they will play it, plain and simple.

Just don't get thrown and you are golden!
 

ZeldaFreak0309

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Messages
391
Location
Fremont, CA
Just wanted to say thank you MrWizard for giving us the opportunity and being so willing to cooperate and work with our community. I think you've squashed a lot of initial fears people had going into this. Here's to making Smash at EVO a success!
 

Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
1,016
Location
Freiburg germany
The Backroom should talk about some aspects of the ruleset (mainly DSR / adding a buttoncheck clause/...), but other than that, stick to the apex ruleset!
Don't really care wether wobbling is on/off, it doesn't change alot. ICs still kill you with one or 2 grabs.

and yeah! Thanks MrWizard, awesome job that you remind us to provide you with our prefered ruleset!
 

crismas

Smash Master
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Dec 13, 2005
Messages
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Inkopolis
NNID
crismaspresents
This is good input for the Apex rule set as well. TBH I'm for wobbling as legal. The only reason we made it illegal for 2013 was the numerous complaints from 2012 when it was legal. If the decision is made overall for you guys to make wobbling legal at EVO we'll probably adapt that for 2014. Soo good discussion :bee:
 

jchensor

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
13
First of all, welcome back to Evo, guys. ^_^ Super happy for your community. Can't wait to see Smash Melee at Evo again.

The questions I have regarding Wobbling are this:

1) When Wobbling is allowed in tournaments, do the top 8 players end up being predominantly Ice Climbers? In other words, does Wobbling turn Ice Climbers into undisputed #1 character of the game?

2) Without Wobbling, are Ice Climbers ***? Let's think with an FGC example. Third Strike, unblockables with Urien and Oro seem unfair. But it actually makes them competitive and without them, they are not competitive anymore. Where does that fall in with Ice Climbers and Wobbling?

3) Doesn't this kinda change the gameplan vs. Ice Climbers with Wobbling on? Doesn't the goal become kill Nana first as fast as possible, then go after Popo? Is that strategy effective enough to counter-act Wobbling?

Thanks, guys. And congrats!!

- James
 

luzbwl

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
51
Let's start a campaing to make wobbling legal and to evaporate all the misconceptions about it.

#freetheiceclimbers
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
First of all, welcome back to Evo, guys. ^_^ Super happy for your community. Can't wait to see Smash Melee at Evo again.

The questions I have regarding Wobbling are this:

1) When Wobbling is allowed in tournaments, do the top 8 players end up being predominantly Ice Climbers? In other words, does Wobbling turn Ice Climbers into undisputed #1 character of the game?

2) Without Wobbling, are Ice Climbers ***? Let's think with an FGC example. Third Strike, unblockables with Urien and Oro seem unfair. But it actually makes them competitive and without them, they are not competitive anymore. Where does that fall in with Ice Climbers and Wobbling?

3) Doesn't this kinda change the gameplan vs. Ice Climbers with Wobbling on? Doesn't the goal become kill Nana first as fast as possible, then go after Popo? Is that strategy effective enough to counter-act Wobbling?

Thanks, guys. And congrats!!

- James
1) Nope. Fox is still definitely hella good vs ICs.

2) Nah. ICs are still competitive without wobbling. They've got CGs + handoffs (another infinite that's arguably easier to do but it can only be done on certain parts of the stage, not too clear on the details but they're in the ICs boards).

3) That's the strategy no matter what vs the ICs. The issue is only legitimate in a spectator's sense imo.
 
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