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European Ruleset Creation (FIRST POST UPDATED)

Marc

Relic of the Past
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Starters (stage striking, 3 or 5)
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville

Yoshi's Story
Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks voted on
Brinstar (13-0)
Delfino Plaza (18-0)
Frigate Orpheon (20-1)
Halberd (15-2)
Pokémon Stadium 1 (was in the run for possible starter, so definitely a counterpick)
Castle Siege (13-1)

Banned stages voted on
Luigi's Mansion (3-23)
Rainbow Cruise (13-18)
Pictochat (19-23)
Jungle Japes (6-23)
Distant Planet (6-14)
Pirate Ship (2-16)
 

Staco

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Hm, I dunno if its a good idea to have 5 neutrals.
At CiB next weekend we are using just FD, BF and SV as neutrals.

Maybe we should vote if we want to have 3 or 5 neutrals since a lot of europeans doesnt want to have PS1 or Lylat as a starter.
 

Blad01

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Hm, I dunno if its a good idea to have 5 neutrals.
At CiB next weekend we are using just FD, BF and SV as neutrals.

Maybe we should vote if we want to have 3 or 5 neutrals since a lot of europeans doesnt want to have PS1 or Lylat as a starter.
Well, having these 3 starters (FD, BF, SV) is exactly what we ('the french' and some others) proposed.

My first choice would be 3 starters, double-blind-choice (or rock-paper-scizor to determine who strikes first), with FD, BF and SV.

But if the majority wants 5 stages (And that implies a vote), I think that PS1 would be better than Lylat.
 

~ Gheb ~

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5 stages > 3 stages.

With 5 stages you can strike it 1221 - style, which means that the player, who strikes the first stage doesn't have an advantage becuase he gets the strike last too.
Having 3 stages gives one of the player a slight advantage however because one gets to strike before the other player and that's it.

I often said that PS1 >>> LC as a starter stage because LC has too many **** match-ups ESPECIALLY for overused characters like MK, Snake or Wario. PS1 has more hazards but it fulfils its role as a "neutral" stage better than LC does imo because it has less impact on match-ups than any other stage...

+1 vote for PS1.

:059:
 

Yeniths

East Midlands!
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I would vote to include PS1 as a neutral, Gheb has already done a good job as to why PS1 should be chosen over LC.

So yeah I vote for PS1.
 

Marc

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Note, this isn't the actual vote, but rather about which stages to include in the poll.;)

And yeah, this is assuming stage striking and NOT random select.
 

Blinky

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I agree with Marc about those 2 stages being the most neutral of the counterpick, and dispite disliking it, and the glitches, my vote goes for pokemon stadium for matchup reasons.
 

Greward

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5 stages and LC. PS1 has too much wall combos / infinites /kill saves. Even so much time lose.
LC doesnt have **** matchups... PS1 has as much as LC (DDD for example). Anyways matchup ***** is not a good choice when we are talking about stage strike, its way better to talk about random effects or the stage going to change the match so much.
 

King Funk

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Candidates for neutral:
- Final Destination
- Battlefield
- Smashville


These three are pretty much guaranteed...

- Yoshi's Island
- Lylat Cruise
- Pokemon Stadium 1

We have to decide which of these three will be neutrals...
 

Blinky

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Yoshis is considered as "neutral" by the large majority of the community, if we were to decide a european standard ruleset, it would probably be best to take it as neutral, as it's only really France and a few people outside of France that would argue otherwise.

Also matchups is important, as regardless of the circumstance, that is what the starter stage is about, having a "fair" stage. Also, I'm not sure on rules in other countries, but in the UK I'm sure wall infinites are banned.

Dephino and Castle Seige are not good condidates due to matchups and walk off edges.

I'm indifferent as to whether LC or PS1 is chosen, however I will stick with my vote for PS1
 

Marc

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I'd rather have too many than too few. Probably gonna make the poll with PS1/Lylat Cruise/Delfino/Halberd/Castle Siege.
 

Red Arremer

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The walkoffs are only temporary, thus shouldn't be that much of a problem.

But if you add PS1 and/or Lylat Cruise, these stages (and yea, Halberd too) should definitely be considered.
 

Smasher89

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We need more stages then 3 IMO, especially if using stagestriking. All 3 "neutrals" is good for Diddy, where 2 of them are probably his best stages. Assuming a Diddy players starts striking first in a 12 style with (even works for second) then he will always start on either smashville or final (which is most likely striked by the opponent).

Lylat seems IMO more balanced then PS1 in the way that even though lylat can tilt and recoveries can sometimes be gimped, it´s in a way like battlefields ledge works in melee, get used to it, even FD now has a wierd ledge.
It's not tilting but if I would say, wolfs up B I think you get what I mean, but that´s something you´ll have to accept if you take a character with a "bad" recovery.

Pokemon stadium 1 though could be interesting but all "neutral" stages without walls might be a good thing. Camping the tree is even worse in brawl then melee so it´s not a too good thing, and yea the windmill like marc allready mentioned...
 

Marc

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Right, polls have ended and we're still pretty much undecided whether to have 3 or 5 stages. I'm thinking to include both as viable options and move on to counterpick stages. This also makes it easier for TOs to accept a European ruleset, as they still have some leeway with their own preference. Thoughts?
 

Blad01

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Right, polls have ended and we're still pretty much undecided whether to have 3 or 5 stages. I'm thinking to include both as viable options and move on to counterpick stages. This also makes it easier for TOs to accept a European ruleset, as they still have some leeway with their own preference. Thoughts?
One thought...Perfect. ;)
 

xDD-Master

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5 stages > 3 stages.

With 5 stages you can strike it 1221 - style, which means that the player, who strikes the first stage doesn't have an advantage becuase he gets the strike last too.
Having 3 stages gives one of the player a slight advantage however because one gets to strike before the other player and that's it.
Very good argument I totally agree!

+1 vote for PS1.

:059:
PS1 +1 :bigthumbu


Right, polls have ended and we're still pretty much undecided whether to have 3 or 5 stages. I'm thinking to include both as viable options and move on to counterpick stages. This also makes it easier for TOs to accept a European ruleset, as they still have some leeway with their own preference. Thoughts?
The Ruleset isnt an order for all TOs, its more a guide how it should be.

If we use our idea, we could as well let the TO decide all the legal / banned stages, CPs, allowed characters, other rules and blah.

I think we should definitly decide on one certain ruleset.
 

Marc

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Saying it should be 3 or 5 is more restrictive than having 3,5,7,9,13 etc all as possible options. I don't feel like forcing a decision when it's this close.
 

Jim Morrison

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PS1 has just as silly changes as Delfino. You can camp hard on the rock part, the windmill part is plain gay now that you cant go trough it and the fire part is 'here have a tree to stand under'
Also, the walls that appear there. It's about the same Delfino, except Delfino makes camping harder. If you allow PS1, why not Delfino. Because of a walkoff? Lol, I think it's easy enough to run away for a little bit if your char can get CG'd off the stage, or stay on the parasols <_<.
EDIT: Woops, I misunderstood. Yoshi's Island already included lol.
Lylat Cruise would be the better option, PS1 is just too promotive. Lylat just sometimes ****s over with the edges.
 

Marc

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First post updated with poll results. I think we're nearing the end of stage voting. Please post here if you want to see a certain poll regarding stages before we move on.
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
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I can imagine a few people arguing banned, my proposal is to have 3 polls at once for the next round. I do think we're pretty much done after those, as I don't imagine any more counterpick stages being added. Pokémon Stadium 2 perhaps?
 

K@0S

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1221 isn't better... I'm tired of repeating this, this is the worst argument you could ever use (and yet it seems that it is still seen as a good argument -__-), I already proved how 3 stages + blind strike > 5 stages when it come to fairness. Mathematically.

Simply prefering 5 stages over 3 stages because it gives more choice or stuff like Diddy, ICs,... become too good etc etc are the only legit arguments in this case.

Anyways when I see stuff like RC being in the banned list I guess that ruleset won't be used often~~
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
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Eh, we've already established that it's gonna be 3 or 5 based on TO choice. The first part of the post is severy outdated.

EDIT: Took the old bit out before anyone else misreads. RC was banned by a majority of voters and I'll definitely abide by that for every big tournament in the Netherlands I have a say in.
 

Blad01

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Anyways when I see stuff like RC being in the banned list I guess that ruleset won't be used often~~
Denying what we've done so far is not really smart, especially coming from you.

This is supposed to be an European ruleset, so let's make our best to apply it on at least the biggest tournaments.
 

Greward

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3 stages is not stupid, but if we put 3 stages FD or SV shouldnt be starter, because we would have 2 ground based chars stages and 1 aerial based chars stages. So if we put 3 stages as starter i see really smarter to have FD as cp and YI as starter, for example, since yoshis island is more a neutral stage for both typing characters.

Kaos, you want 3 stages as starter and then you want RC as cp? We're stupid? I can be liberal or conservative, but not both things at the same time. And if your a MK main your opinion about RC being allowed or not is not as good as one of another top player who doesnt play MK lol
 

C.R.Z

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jungle japes
i actually think jungle japes is a legit counter pick.to me it hasnt gone to far away from being netural actually.the only real factor that makes it a counter pick is the water, i dunno its debatable but i just think this stage is useful and doesnt have many random factors.

picto chat
this in all honesty needs to be banned <_< it has too many things that can make a significant, unfair difference to a match.things that can hurt and kill you are present.unlike nofair which is consistant on how it hurts/kills you, pictochat is just an unpredictable series of events.it also gives know clue as to when somthing will happen or what it will be...ban this plz

btw let more europeans know about this, since it is important.
 

K@0S

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First, I already stated I don't care too much about 3 or 5 stages, I was just pointing out the fact that the most often used argument was false (and on a side note, I'd prefer PS1 over LC, if that can help).

About RC, I used to see it as an obvious CP stage (which is generally the case in the US) so I definitely find it surprising; saying I'm biased because I play MK on the other hand is what is biased in this case, I've even always been against stages like Norfair, LM or JJ (which is a -very- good stage for mk, as an olimar mainer you should know even more what I mean).
Moreover, I could also say in the same way that people voted to ban it because they don't play MK or simply a char advantaged by RC, so it just makes the job easier for them. And since I guess the majority that voted belongs to that category, I win the basied debate.

Denying what we've done so far is not really smart, especially coming from you.
How is questioning (denying may be a bit too strong) something voted and decided by anyone including randoms not smart ? Over all the players in europe, only like 20-30 of them without any selection voted. Accepting it without putting it into question is what is not really smart imo.
 

-Jumpman-

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How is questioning (denying may be a bit too strong) something voted and decided by anyone including randoms not smart ? Over all the players in europe, only like 20-30 of them without any selection voted. Accepting it without putting it into question is what is not really smart imo.
Well, questioning the result of the poll is pointless, because that's just the consensus. You could question the method and argue not everyone should be able to influence the results of it because you think experience and skill play an important role in this process.
 

Greward

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First, I already stated I don't care too much about 3 or 5 stages, I was just pointing out the fact that the most often used argument was false (and on a side note, I'd prefer PS1 over LC, if that can help).

About RC, I used to see it as an obvious CP stage (which is generally the case in the US) so I definitely find it surprising; saying I'm biased because I play MK on the other hand is what is biased in this case, I've even always been against stages like Norfair, LM or JJ (which is a -very- good stage for mk, as an olimar mainer you should know even more what I mean).
Moreover, I could also say in the same way that people voted to ban it because they don't play MK or simply a char advantaged by RC, so it just makes the job easier for them. And since I guess the majority that voted belongs to the second category, I win the basied debate.

How is questioning (denying may be a bit too strong) something voted and decided by anyone including randoms not smart ? Over all the players in europe, only like 20-30 of them without any selection voted. Accepting it without putting it into question is what is not really smart imo.
In US 1/2 players play MK, lol

Rainbow Cruise should be an ok stage if we had a "rainbow cruise" for grounded characters. And aerial based chars already have got brinstar as a "free win" stage. If im playing against Wario/MK/G&W just to note a few, ill probly ban brinstar, then they still have lylat for wario, delfino for MK, halberd for G&W,... but with RC allowed i would just ban it or brinstar and they would take me to the one i dont ban, which is mostly a free win. This would be ok if we had more stupid counterpicks like LM, JJ, Norfair, Greens Greens etc, but as we dont and we wont do it, it just gives a stupid advantage over aerial based characters that grounded based characters DONT have.
On a side note, the 3 starters are SV, FD and BF, 2 grounded based stages, and 5 starters is mostly PS1 besides Lylat, which gives 3 grounded based starters to 1 aerial chars based stage (YI is neutral for me). After saying that, i see ok that 3 starters tourneys have got RC allowed since the grounded based chars have got an advantage on starters, and i think the best should be 5 starters with lylat and not ps1, or 3 starters with no FD and YI as starter, and as most people are scruby and dont want YI as starter because one day on his life a shy guy stopped one ****ing fox's laser.
The reason why we have thinked that RC should be banned is because lots of players have to change his char to play here, and its obvious that you wont beat a MK player if you are not one (unless he sucks).
And we had a private european BBR because of what you stated, but for some reasons that i dont know it was deleted and we have random players who dont go to tourneys and dont play offline voting here.

PS: im probably changing my main to Wario or MK, i still dunno.
 

K@0S

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Well, questioning the result of the poll is pointless, because that's just the consensus. You could question the method and argue not everyone should be able to influence the results of it because you think experience and skill play an important role in this process.
I think it's obvious.

(on RC) its obvious that you wont beat a MK player if you are not one (unless he sucks).
This is were we disagree.
 

-Jumpman-

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I think RC should stay banned because ground based characters don't have a CP of the same calibre as RC like MK and some other chars do.
 

Utto

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Made the three polls Marc suggested. I've added Castle Siege just for the sake of it; the outcome seems pretty obvious to me.

These are the last polls as far as the stages go I think. I can't imagine any other stage having a shot at being a counterpick.
 
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