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European Brawl Tier List Project

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pheX

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Well I'd suggest .Tero since he is already active @ SWF and made many
posts that proved his knowledge and his debating quality. A lot of Match Up
disctiption @ MK threads are by Tero. He is also leader of the German Melee
and Brawl Backroom as well as the current European Brawl Back room.

He has a strong interested in discussion and quite a lot experience at
any form of competetive smash debating.
He is ambitious and reliable.

just my 2 cents
So long.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
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Part of my function in the SBR these days is to represent Europe. I've always provided them with our stance on things and have voted as a European. I also put a few Europeans in there, but it's very hard for me to tell who's interested and capable anymore (a European back room would be of great help for that). I'd love to recommend people, but I gotta know who to recommend. =]
Well yeah, but you can't represent Europe as a whole, because you don't even know most of the communitys (no offense, but it's a fact).
Also do you how many europeans are in the Back Room? I'm just a curious.
I've seen some new purple user names but all of them were from the netherlands which made me sad ...



Well I'd suggest .Tero since he is already active @ SWF and made many
posts that proved his knowledge and his debating quality. A lot of Match Up
disctiption @ MK threads are by Tero. He is also leader of the German Melee
and Brawl Backroom as well as the current European Brawl Back room.

He has a strong interested in discussion and quite a lot experience at
any form of competetive smash debating.
He is ambitious and reliable.

just my 2 cents
So long.

Haha thx, but that's not part of the discussion atm.
We should rather try to actually achieve something before we make suggestions about people who should be in the BR.
 

Marc

Relic of the Past
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I'd say around 6 Europeans have SBR-B access, might have overlooked someone.

It's true, I knew everyone in the Melee days, but some countries' Brawl scenes are pretty much unknown to me.
 

Blad01

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If we make an EBBR Tero, there shouldn't be any european in the SBR anyways. It's unlogical that some non-americans are in the SBR, and it will be even more with the EBBR X)
 

Red Arremer

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If we make an EBBR Tero, there shouldn't be any european in the SBR anyways. It's unlogical that some non-americans are in the SBR, and it will be even more with the EBBR X)
...what?

This is dumb logic, excuse me, Blad. Nationalism is nothing which we need on SWF. We're still a community playing one game. Just because we're separated by the Atlantic Ocean it doesn't mean that we play a different game.

The SWF's SBR-B is the main source of information and rules for the whole Smash community, including the European ones. The European metagame looks different, and thusly, we might know things they don't and vice versa.
Working together is vital and should be supported, not opposed.
 

Tero.

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If we make an EBBR Tero, there shouldn't be any european in the SBR anyways. It's unlogical that some non-americans are in the SBR, and it will be even more with the EBBR X)

Actually I think Spadefox is right.
European Back Room would be more about Ruleset and Community discussion, we should still stay in contact with the US people to discuss metagame and share our thoughts because we still play the same game and most aspects are identical.
 

Blad01

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Actually I think Spadefox is right.
European Back Room would be more about Ruleset and Community discussion, we should still stay in contact with the US people to discuss metagame and share our thoughts because we still play the same game and most aspects are identical.
Have you seen this post : http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7364659&postcount=9 ?

I think we should stick with the "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" Forum to discuss about tactical, characters, and general metagame.
But when it comes to make ruleset, and tier lists (which are based on character's potential, match-ups, but also on tournaments results - and thus on a specific metagame, with specific players -. If the tier list wasn't based on that, we would make match-ups tier lists (which aren't bad by the way :p).
And it's the same thing about rulesets : America is facing problems with MK, we don't; some regions have differents philosophies... (See EBBR topics).

This is why no european is needed in the American SBR, and no american is needed in the EBBR. But the community as a whole we would keep discussing together in the Brawl subforums.
 

Red Arremer

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Blad01, that still is a horrible idea.

There's a difference between talking about the metagame in the general Brawl boards and a back room.

Not every European BRoomer should be in the actual SBR or vice versa, that's not what we mean.
But it's also a bad idea to isolate ourselves completely from the Americans.

Do you think Meta Knight is worse just because he is less played in Europe? I know he's the best character. His metagame situation in Europe doesn't do anything about this fact.
 

K@0S

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I think that it's normal at the moment, but it becomes quite illogical if we get our own European Back Room. Of course we must stay in contact etc.; but people voting in each room is weird and not very relevant.

Or else we could consider the SBR as the main BR, and the EBR as an help for discussions and whose usefulness would be to share its point of view (for worldwide concerns, indeed).
 

Blad01

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Blad01, that still is a horrible idea.

There's a difference between talking about the metagame in the general Brawl boards and a back room.
Yeah... You're... right. ôo I don't see where I said they were the same thing, though. You were talking about being isolated from "Americans", so I answered on that point.

Not every European BRoomer should be in the actual SBR or vice versa, that's not what we mean.
But it's also a bad idea to isolate ourselves completely from the Americans.
When you say "Americans", are you talking about Americans in the SBR only ? A lot of smart american people are discussing in general, tactical and characters forums, and it's really interesting for us european to talk with them. So we, as europeans, are not separated from the "Americans", and we are not isolating ourselves at all by making an BR reserved to europeans.

Our EBBR would be separated from the American SBR though, when it comes to take decisions and vote about our continent, and to represent his metagame (what a Tier List is made for). I don't see why Americans players would vote for the european tier list, or why some european players would vote for the american tier list...

Do you think Meta Knight is worse just because he is less played in Europe? I know he's the best character. His metagame situation in Europe doesn't do anything about this fact
If our metagame is developped enough, and he is growing, MK will be 1st. He's currently 1st, and I bet he will remain 1st at the end of the Summer, after the international tournaments. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229417

I do see your point, the european tier list would probably look like the american one. But while you took MK as an exemple, because it is obvious he is the best character in the game, I think that some middle / low tiers spots (even A tier's ones) could change here, an seeing the metagame helps. (It is still at its early states though)
 

Marc

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You might have noticed I do not speak of an American and a European SBR, I speak of the SBR and the EBBR and I can definitely see some spillover. Spadefox and .Tero basically said what I wanted to say.
 

Red Arremer

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Fine. If you are so about nationalism and regionalism and think neither Backroom would appreciate input from the other continents' players, respectively their metagame, then let's make:

British Backroom
French Backroom
German European Backroom
Scandinavian Backroom
Dutch Backroom
Canadian Backroom
East Coast Backroom
West Coast Backroom
Texas Backroom
Midwest Backroom
etc.

Because all of these regions have their own metagames. The metagame in Canada is different to the metagame in Texas, so why would a Canadian need to speak with Texans about their metagame?

Following by your logic, it would be BS and unnecessary!
 

King Funk

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For me, the SBR is not the "american backroom"... Is there even the word "american" in it? No, it's called the "Smash Back Room". Why do you think europeans like Marc are part of it? Because the Smash Back Room is an international group, discussing the metagame as a whole. It just happens to have more american players in it, which is pretty normal, because the overwhelming majority of Super Smash Bros. players are american. If they are not so numerous compared to us, they are at least more organized. Yes, I know there is a big japanese community, but the language barrier makes them pretty much isolated from all of us. But in the SBR, there is also an SBR-M and an SBR-B, two different groups for two different games (a good reason to split the Backroom).

The issue here is creating an EBBR, or "European Brawl Back Room".

First of all, I don't even understand how members of this site can imply there is an "european style" of play. Every member of smashboards, may he be american, european, zulu or martian reads the same guides on the same character boards, how could we have a different metagame? That said, you may wonder: how will the tier list we plan to create be any different? The problem here is not how european players use certain characters (essentially the same way), but which characters they choose. That's right, some characters are more liked in Europe (I'll cite the portuguese examples of Toon Link and Falco) than in the United States, it's a matter of general taste. Different characters imply different tournament results.

What should the EBBR's goal be then? The answer is pretty simple.

We won't be discussing "our own metagame", because, frankly, we don't have one. We won't even consider trying to find a new way of playing the characters, because unless it's proven wrong, the character discussion boards give us the best ways of playing each character (we've put more than a year of research on the whole game).

That's why our goal is not to distinguish ourselves. Our goal is to unite, here and now. We have to bring all the european communities here, organize more tournaments, and make our presence more felt in SWF.
 

Aiko

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This is gonna be pretty long.


Let me start off with definitions of the terms: Metagame and tierlist.

Tier list (noun) is a list of characters according to their potential, within a given metagame (this last bit is important and will be covered later)

Metagame (noun) is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset.

This is the Wiki definition, but I'm going to add a little bit to this.

The metagame dictates what is currently used on a regular basis, what is popular and what is common knowledge. A simple example would be a card game:

Card A beats Card B.
Card B beats Card C.
Card C beats Card A.

This is a standard rock paper scissors situation, and since we have no other defining attributes, there is NO metagame because anybody can use any card.

If we introduce a system of card rarity, this generates a metagame. Lets say Card C is extremely rare, and the other cards are common. Since Card A is always beaten by card B, and Card C (the counter to B) is rarely played (due to rarity), it is said that Card B is the current metagame; that is, it is commonly played.
However, over time, more people will acquire Card C, and it will see more play. Soon many people will play Card C, in an attempt to beat card B - thus this is advancing the metagame. It is changing the standard of play, due to Card B being popular. Soon Card C will be the metagime, ie it is commonly played.
As a side definition: Anti metagame is using tactics/strategies which counter the current metagame.

If you do not agree with this definition, then it doesn't matter. I am going to base my arguement on this definition.


Why should we have a separate back room? (suggested name EBBR)


Because we have different strategies/tactics which are popular, ie we have a different metagame and therefore we MUST have a different tierlist. This tierlist may even end up exactly the same as the current SBR tierlist, however it will ultimately be because of different reasons.

To debate King Funk's post, which says "we do not have a metagame." This is not true. The only instance in which a metagame cannot exist (for brawl) is if all characters are equal, ie each character has an equal chance of winning, regardless of techskill, knowledge required. All characters require an equal amount of skill. This is simply not true. Can you honestly say Pikachu (a technical character) requires as much skill as say Ike (not very technical, requires more skill with spacing and timing). Of course you cannot, because it simply is not true.

The true question is: Why do we have a different metagame?

The biggest arguement to this is because we do not play against other metagames. Imagine if we have 2 groups of players. Each group will have their own preferences, regardless of how optimal they are. When the 2 groups face each other, it is essentially playing metagame vs metagame, and the optimal metagame will win (assuming skills are equal).

Europe (as a single entity) rarely plays against the US and therefore we do not have a chance to merge metagames. Therefore ours will be different. There is only 1 situation where the metagames will be the same, and that is when the optimal play is plainly obvious. (In theory, if we are given an infinite amount of time to explore the game, all regions will eventually end up with the same metagame). It is only when different metagames play against each other, that one of them changes or is eliminated. This is true on an even smaller scale, taking UK for example, which has 3 mostly separated regions. What is different however, is that players from all regions, will often travel to the others to play, thus pitting metagame vs metagame, removing sub optimal strategies and mixing metagames.

The advent of online play and watching videos, does increase the amount of mixing, and thus reduces variance in metagames, but the majority of us do not play against the US or japanese, thus leaving metagames mostly isolated. If anything, many online players often do not attend offline events, creating an alternate metagame/region, albeit purely virtual.

Ultimately, Europe has preferences which differ from the US or Japan. Toon link may not be popular in the states, but he is popular here, and is therefore more likely to do well in tournaments. Therefore he is a common strategy and will end up higher on the tierlist ie. We will have different tierlists.

A European tierlist is only possible if we are creating a metagame as a whole ie we are playing against each other, not just having isolated countries. And the result is yes. We had an international brawl tournaments - SMACK, and we have one coming up - Super Lion 4.


Is this enough to warrant a separate backroom?

My opinion is Yes.

Europe is the biggest Non-US smash region, and whilst it is not as active as the US, it is still very active. As European smashers, we have a right to show the rest of the world how we play. No matter how different it is from the US or Japan or anywhere else in the world. It doesn't matter how optimal our play is, as long as it is different.

This will only benefit the world smash community. Pit is higher on the tierlist in Japan. It is more than likely that Pit players in Japan have advanced Pit's metagame more than the US. This means the tactics can be adopted by the rest of the world, thus evolving smash AS A WHOLE. As smashers, our duty is to play smash to the highest level and share it with everyone.

To achieve this there must be organisation on all levels. Organisation of the world's communities - US, Japan, Europe and anywhere else. But there must be organisation within these microcosms. - Europe - UK, Germany, France etc - Northwest UK, east midlands, London.

If we were to have our own European Back room, there must be representatives from the US community to pass on information. Similarly, there must be some European reps in the US community. As it currently stands, the SBR is mostly American with SOME European reps, and this is simply not enough. It is misrepresentative and does not do the communities any favours (US or European).

Ultimately, the backroom should be as a result of wanting to improve smash, not just for Europe, but for the world.

[I'm finished now]
 

-Jumpman-

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You're using Europe as if it's one single entity, it's not. There's no communication between countries and they don't play each other, so there are multiple metagames in Europe instead of one. So a European backroom wouldn't work because there are multiple metagames.
 

Aiko

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With a european backroom, this would start more communication as country reps would begin speaking to each other on a regular basis. We are beginning to have more international tournaments. I admit there is currently a lack of communications, but my opinion is that if we dont do anything about it, it will never happen. An EBBR would certainly be a start.
 

Blad01

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I agree with Aiko on the metame discussion.

The problem that Spadefox and Jumpman are actually pointing out is that there is no European Brawl metagame yet, since we have not had international / european tournaments (apart from SMACK).

But I repeat it : At the end of the Summer, everything will be ready, and the european metagame will actually be real.
 

Blinky

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I agree that after the summer tournements is the best time to really discuss european metagame, but we can still use this time beforehand to organise ourselves, making it easier and quicker when the time is more appropriate.
 

King Funk

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Because we have different strategies/tactics which are popular, ie we have a different metagame and therefore we MUST have a different tierlist.
Give me an example, I'm interested. ^^

To debate King Funk's post, which says "we do not have a metagame." This is not true. The only instance in which a metagame cannot exist (for brawl) is if all characters are equal, ie each character has an equal chance of winning, regardless of techskill, knowledge required. All characters require an equal amount of skill. This is simply not true. Can you honestly say Pikachu (a technical character) requires as much skill as say Ike (not very technical, requires more skill with spacing and timing). Of course you cannot, because it simply is not true.
Of course, when I said "we don't have a metagame", I didn't mean it that way. I just said that because of the general lack of tournament experience in Europe, we don't have a unique metagame. Well, if you consider lack of experience and lack of smashboards presence to be a part of what's unique, our metagame could be unique (because in my opinion, all the rest is the same as the american style of play). But I'd rather merge with what's better (-> the international SWF character boards) than remain in a hole of ignorance, pretending to remain unique.

We should bring the userbase here.

This is going too far, my head hurts lol... :laugh:
 

-Jumpman-

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With a european backroom, this would start more communication as country reps would begin speaking to each other on a regular basis. We are beginning to have more international tournaments. I admit there is currently a lack of communications, but my opinion is that if we dont do anything about it, it will never happen. An EBBR would certainly be a start.
But like I just made clear, there's no point in having one. A BR wouldn't be as effective as a general discussion thread in which all players can post.
 

Tero.

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You're using Europe as if it's one single entity, it's not. There's no communication between countries and they don't play each other, so there are multiple metagames in Europe instead of one. So a European backroom wouldn't work because there are multiple metagames.
I agree with almost everything aside from that last sentence.

In the beginning there are always multiple metagames, everywhere. Metagames merge if there is some sort of interchange, and interchange can only happen if there is communication.
Communication however can only be achieved if we either exchange knowledge and experiences or if we play each other on a regular base. Preferably both.

We have to assume that there is actually more than one metagame in the united staates, consider the distance between WC and EC, do you think those guys play each other regularly?
There are probably way more similarities in the metagames of the american community because they have more big tournaments but there are still many differences in playstyles.

Also you are in the "american" Back Room and you are from Europe so you have a different metagame, how come the SBR works with people from all over the world.

In fact what I wanted to say is that we need a Back Room in order to create something like a combined european metagame.


the best player in germany is reaper.


and the best in austria is luigi_player
So how exactly does this help anything with our current discussion?

But like I just made clear, there's no point in having one. A BR wouldn't be as effective as a general discussion thread in which all players can post.
So a general discussion thread with like casuals from all over europe demanding to ban MK would be more effective than a Back Room with the top players/contributers/debaters of each country?

Sorry, that's new for me, thanks for sharing it though.

PS: I didn't intend to offend somebody, I'm just trying to make my point clear.
 

Fuzzyness

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so l1nk_aut who is the best UK player loool

(I'm just asking this because there is no definite answer)

we haven't had enough UK brawl tournaments to decide, since it's mostly melee tournaments here
 

Tero.

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For the german scene I would choose at least:

.selebu, Biggad, pheX, Yomi-no-Kuni, Ravenlord, Vegeta, reaper, Pamaro and me.

I have a few more people but I'm not sure yet who I should choose as #10.


(bump)
 
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This thread is a bit lulz, like why in earth would there be a reason for us to have a subforum to discuss the metagame, lol, There will be same strats and tactics to counter same strats and tactics everywhere. The thing that cuts us off from the japanese is the language. As for tier lists it doesnt matter*. But I do think we need a bigger chunk of the SWF forums since Europe isnt really the same type of connected people as the US and japan, Europeans doesnt really share the same history, language and culture in the same way. This means that by dividing further, more people might be comfortable with coming to these boards and talk about whatever smashrelated since they can do that in their mother tounge. Not everyone knows english in Europe.

Also the swedish brawl scene isnt that big(its almost non-existant), noticed recently :p

*(note that I only say that the actual list dont matter, cause tiers do exist and they do matter, the list do not really, since it always is at least a bit biased)
 

Aiko

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A tier list is dependant on popular play. What is popular here, MAY be different to Japan and USA. In theory if the game were played for an infinite amount of time, the tier list should eventually be the same , due to all the best tactics being found out, but whilst the game is in development, the tier list will differ.
 

cenel

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Well that's a valid point.
I'm going to ask reaper/Pamaro about it.

About the countries:
I think France, the Netherlands and Germany have the biggest scenes at the moment, followed by Spain and Sweeden.
Italian scene is almost non existant and swiss scene is very very small.
Austrian scene is pretty small but has quite a few good and knowledgable players.

1) Netherlands, France, Germany
2) Spain, Sweeden
3) Austria, UK
[...]gap[...]
4) Italy, Switzerland, Portugal

maybe 10 people for group 1, 8 for group 2, 5 for group 3 and 2 for group 4
Uh if you talk about the SIZE of a community your list is totally inaccurate. The size of the Spain scene is really underated lmao. Would look more like this.
1) France, Germany, Spain
2) UK, Netherlands
3) Sweden, Austria
4) Don't have a clue about the other country's

The most developed scene is hard to point out though, because of lack of european tournament results.
 

Tero.

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Uh if you talk about the SIZE of a community your list is totally inaccurate. The size of the Spain scene is really underated lmao. Would look more like this.
1) France, Germany, Spain
2) UK, Netherlands
3) Sweden, Austria
4) Don't have a clue about the other country's

The most developed scene is hard to point out though, because of lack of european tournament results.

But France, Germany and the Netherlands have way more tournaments than Spain.
Spain smash scene (melee and brawl) is still kinda new.
 

Blad01

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Well from what Marc says me, Spain has a few little munthly tournaments, and sometimes some national tournaments (pretty big). He should post the results here more often D:
I don't know how much the scene is advanced though, but Cenel is right, it's relatively big now ^^
 

Tero.

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Well I have no problem with spain beeing on the same level as france/germany/netherlands, let's wait for Marcbri or Greward to clear this up.
 

Marcbri

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Well Spain smash scene is split in 4 main regions that are Catalonia, Andalucia, Valencia and Madrid. then we have some players in other regions who travel to these 4 in order to play tournaments.
so far we've had in 2009

3 tournaments in Andalucia ( there's another today and a national one in summer)
2 tournaments in Valencia ( no tournaments planned right now)
5 tournaments in Catalonia one of them being national ( next one is in June)
1 tournament in Madrid (next one is in June and they want to do a national in summer too).

that's the tournaments we've had in 09 so far, maybe I should make a thread with general information about Spain ( melee and brawl I guess)
 

Yeniths

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Glad to see several new members in the SBR:), hopefully more people will be added in time.
 

Blad01

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Besides Achoral, Kaos and me, there isn't really anyone in France that could vote right now.

I'm thinking to Jujux, Bjay, Kly, and others good and knowledgable players, but I don't think any of us has enough experience right now to vote.

I think that after the 3/4 tournaments of the summer (+ some intense training sometimes :p), we will be ready though. ^^
 

King Funk

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I don't think it really matters whether we have much inter-european experience, I'd like to re-propose a system I posted quite a time ago in this thread in order to create that new tier list.

As for our future PAL tier list, I believe we should use the voting system the SBR-B has used to create the second version of the tier list, by giving a value between 1-15 to each character. Why?
  1. It might give an idea of which characters, in the words of jumpman, are more developed in each country.
  2. We could have the "bigger community = more important" factor by giving coefficients to the values each country's chief representative decides.

    Explanation of 2:

    Imagine Portugal gives 13 and the UK gives 11 to Falco. The UK's number will count much more because let's say, Portugal has 2 as a coefficient and the UK 10 ( 2x13 < 10x11). By adding all the results, all you have to do in the end is divide by the total of each country's coefficient, and you get the result for each character.

  3. It's way less complicated and more precise/true than just taking tier lists from everyone and mixing them up.
What do you guys think?

The only thing we have to decide if we use this is the country coefficients. How important is each country's smash community?
 

Blinky

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While I have nothing against that system, I still think we should wait till after the major European tournements, it will give a bigger understanding of character development. Having a bigger scene does not neccessarily suggest that scene is better, or has as many good players. Waiting will give us a better understanding, and will make discussion easier.
 

Marcbri

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Marcbri
I agree with Blinky. also, do we really need an European tier list?why? this isn't melee, the game is the same even if the metagames are different at the moment.
 
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