European Brawl Tier List Project

[-Jumpman-]

I'm not going to explain this stuff for the second time, but it's extremely simple. Europe has different metagames, constantly changing. Some regions may have more skilled players or players more skilled in using certain characters. This means ALL players are biased because they don't play others regions very often.

Because of the seperation and everything I just said, the "Tier List" will become a list based on regional tournament results and personal opinion based on their own metagame. It will become a Tier List based on potential instead of being a reflection of the current metagame. So why even bother?

 

[K@0S]

It will become a Tier List based on potential instead of being a reflection of the current metagame.

Isn't a Tier List based on potential the best one ?

I do agree with you when you say that atm we can't make a tier list because regions don't play against each others often enough (and that's why Blad and others said that it should be made after TSL4, at least), but I didn't understand that point.

 

[Teran]

Interesting...

I have my eye on this one.

 

[King Funk]

Isn't a Tier List based on potential the best one ?

I do agree with you when you say that atm we can't make a tier list because regions don't play against each others often enough (and that's why Blad and others said that it should be made after TSL4, at least), but I didn't understand that point.

What I meant is the best thing you can do to create a tier list (but the tendency here seems to be "no", and I respect that), since we don't have inter-regional tournaments, is to mix up all the different scores each country gives to each character. Even if that doesn't give us some very accurate results at all, it's as close as we can get. But I do understand and agree with the fact that a tier list is currently unnecessary right now.

 

[Gaki]

Isn't a Tier List based on potential the best one ?

I do agree with you when you say that atm we can't make a tier list because regions don't play against each others often enough (and that's why Blad and others said that it should be made after TSL4, at least), but I didn't understand that point.

Why want a tier list based on potential its basically the same as letting meta knight stay top tier.

 

[K@0S]

So if you have bad Metaknights in your area, you wouldn't put him top tier ?

 

[-Jumpman-]

It's about how much the character is developed. You can't compare US MKs to European ones, because you don't know how good they are. So yes, I would. And shut up, it's a dumb idea. That's pretty clear.

 

[King Funk]

It's about how much the character is developed. You can't compare US MKs to European ones, because you don't know how good they are. So yes, I would. And shut up, it's a dumb idea. That's pretty clear.

I'd say Tier Lists = tournament results + character potential

MK would still be number one in a PAL tier list.

 

[-Jumpman-]

No, because if doesn't reflect our metagame at all. This is theoretically.

I don't care what "you'd say", it's not about character potential. If this was the case, MK wouldn't be at spot #1.

 

[King Funk]

No, because if doesn't reflect our metagame at all. This is theoretically.

I don't care what "you'd say", it's not about character potential. If this was the case, MK wouldn't be at spot #1.

MK not at spot #1, basing ourselves purely on character potential? Very debatable.

But let's talk about what tier lists are really made of. Explain me for example how the hell Falco is where he is in that last tier list. We, his mains, thought he would drop a lot because of his bad, lackluster tournament results this season. But to our great surprise, he remained fourth. Why? The SBR must have thought that, even if he's not doing well right now, he still is one of the best characters. In conclusion, they DO take character potential into account.

As a character, Falco is fundamentally amazing and definitely better than the characters who are below him on the tier list. He deserves his spot and to be completely honest I'm a little bit impressed with the SBR for recognizing that.

 

[Tero.]

In conclusion, they DO take character potential into account.

Of course we do, but tier lists are not based solely on character potential.

 

[King Funk]

Let me quote myself just a few posts ago.

Tier Lists = tournament results + character potential

Or is it more complex than that, Tero? (I don't know, I'm not in the SBR)

 

[Tero.]

Let me quote myself just a few posts ago.



Or is it more complex than that, Tero? (I don't know, I'm not in the SBR)

Well you have to consider that character potential is also just an oppinion based on the current meta game.
Like if no one plays character X and no one ever won anything with him he can be bottom tier despite the fact that he may has the most potential from the whole cast.
(Ofc that would never happen, because people love to play broken characters, but w/e that's just an example).

But yeah actually you are correct.
Though I have to admit personal opinion influences quite a bit.

 

[Retroking2000]

another factor is that decided tier lists was frame data

i dont know if there is a working one for brawl

 

[Tero.]

Coming back to the actual idea:

At this point I don't think we need a own tier list, because I'm much more pleased with the new SBR Tier list than I've been with the old one. That's just my personal opinion though.

So I've you guys still want to create a european tier list, I guess we should wait at least until TSL4 (or another international event).

 

[-Jumpman-]

Why should we? This is a good moment. Tournament results won't change thoughts on a stage list. I think making one now is a good idea so other hosts know the stagelist.

 

[Retroking2000]

agreed ^ Tero

TSL4 should kick start dicussion off

 

[Marc]

It's not exactly a European tier list without the Scandinavians though. Either way, the project will get a major overhaul if we're still going to do this.

 

[Staco]

I dont think that its a really good idea to make an european brawl tier list.
It just doesnt make any sense at the moment.

We dont have enough active and good players at all compared to america to get a good rating for a european tierlist. (based on european players)

We dont even have got a european board where we discuss MUs (based on european players) and stuff like this, so how do you want to make a tierlist for europe?

And I think that the people which make the list would look at their own knowledge about the game, which is based on the american knowledge. So why making a european tierlist if we dont have got enough information about the european players/playstyle/MUs/skill etc.

Jumpman is right.

A tierlist is based on the potential for every character.
So a european tierlist should be based on the european character potential.

But if you make this list it would more be like this:
Tierlist by european players based on american (a little bit europe) character potential.

To proof me wrong tell me european player names for every character which could represent the character. You wont find enough representing players and videos from them (in which you maybe can see the european character potential) to rate the character.

 

[xDD-Master]

xDD-Master says hi XD

Well, I'm from Germany. I dont have much (Or better saying no) offline experience, but a lot of from wifi, but I can imagine the differences and I still "feel" the lag (After more than 1 Year) so I know when I would have done something better or worse offline (Dieng because of lag or Abusing the Lag). And I dont want to be prig, but I think I'm a good player (If online counts) and have theory-experience. I will go to Cologne is Brawlin (First offline turney for me) and see how it works ^^

My English is solid but not the best, but it's enough to make some discussions

I fully support an european back-room and stuff like that to entrench the european metagame (I often talked to .Tero and others about an European Board for Brawl or an European Tier List but there is mostly not enough support).

So far enough from me, I will see that I will get a bit more active in the european section of SWF cause I'm mostly in tactical and the specific character boards ^^"

 

[Laem]

Making a European tierlist right now would probably result in a controversial one, perhaps striking some vikings or frogs in awe, thus causing discussion and therefore improving communication. What I'm saying is we should continue this project, just to make a solid foundation for our community. Surely there are more roads that lead to Rome, but this one seems good enough to me

 

[Smasher89]

It's not exactly a European tier list without the Scandinavians though.

As the current situation is in Sweden/Norway there hasn´t been a big tournament(more then like 3 good players or something close to that) in brawl in a long time due to the syndrome "brawlnegativism". There will hopefully be a small one at the same weekend as CiB, but it´s more like a "gaming event where some brawlplayers from online come".

A common thing in scandinavians thinks about the game is that IC's are top tier (which I agree on), we needs more MK's/P2W players and hosts in europe though...

 

[Greward]

A common thing in scandinavians thinks about the game is that IC's are top tier (which I agree on), we needs more MK's/P2W players and hosts in europe though...

I think ICs with infinite CGs allowed are top3 (even the best char) and im not scandinavian =P

I'd like to have a european tier list, at least we wont depend as much on everything america does, and its a good **** for discussing a bit.

 

[C.R.Z]

I dont think that its a really good idea to make an european brawl tier list.
It just doesnt make any sense at the moment.

We dont have enough active and good players at all compared to america to get a good rating for a european tierlist. (based on european players)

We dont even have got a european board where we discuss MUs (based on european players) and stuff like this, so how do you want to make a tierlist for europe?

And I think that the people which make the list would look at their own knowledge about the game, which is based on the american knowledge. So why making a european tierlist if we dont have got enough information about the european players/playstyle/MUs/skill etc.

Jumpman is right.

A tierlist is based on the potential for every character.
So a european tierlist should be based on the european character potential.

But if you make this list it would more be like this:
Tierlist by european players based on american (a little bit europe) character potential.

To proof me wrong tell me european player names for every character which could represent the character. You wont find enough representing players and videos from them (in which you maybe can see the european character potential) to rate the character.

europe is def just as good as america and our scence is actually quite different to america's, yes there will be similarities, but there are important differences. we started out as the americans meta game was at the time, but we developed differently, we should have our own community for sure let alone a tier list.

the uk scence is geting bigger and better all the time O_O its actually scary how much good players there are.

um...

snake- calzors, ultimateblaze
falco- fuzzyness, kira, trio, Me? maybe a little lol
MK- Aiko, calzorz, kira, fuzzyness (alot of other players are knowledgeable about meta)
Fox - CloudRain, calzorz
peach-siri, killerjaws
bowser- IXIS!!!
yosh- auro, nessy
luigi- jmiller, boxingking, hurricane rev
dk- boxingking
diddycong- cong, siddy, omegaexile
samus- killerjaws
marth- retroking, fuzzyness, cloudrain, kira, untouched, trio (theres a hell of alot of marth users in the uk)
ike- CloudRain, silva
DDD-fuzzyness
iceclimbers- mako
ZZS- shadowtactics, mako
olimar- ho4u
ness- cloudrain, jmiller
rob- V26, fuzzyness, ho4u
ganon- V26
Cfalcon- calzorz, willz, cloudrain
pikachu- boxingking
lucario- siri
pit- Pitrizer, siri, brawlerpit
wolf- v26, kira
kirby-mako
G&W- mako
link- trio, v26
zelda- siri, v26, mako
sheik- yenthis, cloudrain, kira, v26
sonic- jamzthehedgehog
tlink- jmiller, ixis, cloudrain

thats just the UK AND off the top of my head! loool





edit: this is one i created on allisbrawl from all the matches ive seen from the uk and the rest of europr,i put character potential into account not just tourney results.this is just my opinion so dont flame me :$


S: Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong ,Marth, Falco, Wario, Ice Climbers
A: Mr. Game & Watch, Pikachu, Peach, King Dedede, Olimar, Zero Suit Samus, R.O.B.,Luigi
B: Lucario, Toon Link, link, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Yoshi,
C: Pit, fox, Zelda, Sonic, Sheik, Pokémon Trainer, Ike, Wolf, Kirby,
D: lucas, Ness, Mario, Samus, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff

 

[random falcon scrub!!!]

lol at willz not being included for wolf...

 

[C.R.Z]

lol at willz not being included for wolf...

off the top of my head i said, besides never seen wilz's wolf

 

[Tero.]

I love how once every 2 months or something, somebody digs out this topic and says "let's do this".

FFS Marc just close this and reopen it if we ever feel like we need our own tier list.

 

[Calzum!]

Willz Is random falcon scrub'-'

 

[Bartolon]

@Cloudrain: I think your list isn't that accurate tbh

 

[C.R.Z]

@Cloudrain: I think your list isn't that accurate tbh

feel free to debate who you think should be higher or lower, this is mainly from the uk scence so obviously its not going to be a great repesentaion of europe

 

[Red Arremer]

I love how once every 2 months or something, somebody digs out this topic and says "let's do this".

FFS Marc just close this and reopen it if we ever feel like we need our own tier list.

This man makes sense and his logic is flawless.

 

[Marc]

Haha, fair enough.