Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[JST]

yeah i think thats something to remember to keep in mind, usage of his bananas against him

Problem with this is that D3 is terrible at utilizing bananas. D3 can't handle Diddy's bananas, sorry. =/

 

[jaaboy]

Problem with this is that D3 is terrible at utilizing bananas. D3 can't handle Diddy's bananas, sorry. =/

i dont understand what is so hard to handle about pressing A near a stray banana and throwing it at an opportune time

 

[hizzlum]

s. D3 can't handle Diddy's bananas, sorry. =/

Very true, diddy's banana's can break CG's especially good diddy's who place nanas well. Also DDD's big body doesnt help him dodge those glide tossing banana that diddy abuses to pressure the opponent. A good example of this is one of, if not the best diddy's in the US, Naners of norcal. he did very well in axis and he is the prime example of diddy play revolving around glide tossing. Now good diddy's glide toss to approach, which aint easy for DDD to counter, and diddy's dash attack is unpunishable with its very little lag if you are actually playing a good diddy

i dont understand what is so hard to handle about pressing A near a stray banana and throwing it at an opportune time

My anwser to you is the above, yes DDD can CG a diddy, but every good diddy has got those nanas on the field so DDD can get much % unless he falls for the trip. DDD can gimp diddy, and DDD's Ko power is obiously better in this match-up, but diddy is in control of % rack up and its difficult to punish a glide tossing diddy who can kill at 150% with fsmash 9/10 if you DI well when DDD has to play very well to get in some % in

 

[Gates]

I just realized it's been a month since the last matchup writeup. I really don't know if I can dedicate enough time to this thread, guys. It's definitely something we need and I'd like to keep it going as long as I can, but I just can't promise you guys that I can update this regularly. The soonest I may be able to write up all the matchups might end up being Christmas since there's just so much piling up and I don't have the time to do it right now. If anyone wants to take over this thread or help me in writing the summaries, PM me about it. Don't post this in the thread - it's bad enough when we get derailed to talk about discussion order, getting derailed to deal with my emo **** would be even worse lol.

Anyway, Diddy Kong discussion is finished.
ROB DISCUSSION GO!

 

[ADHD]

Chaingrab > Rob.

 

[JCaesar]

From ROB's perspective, this match is annoying as hell. ROB can't contend with the CG or with DDD in the air so he's forced to camp and run away the entire match. Not fun

I could go more in depth if this discussion kicks off.

 

[DRaGZ]

I'm going to say R.O.B. goes 50/50. We've had many discussions on DeDeDe vs. R.O.B., and it's always ended up 50/50.

 

[Coney]

In theory, it should be a huge advantage--we win in the air, we have the CG, I believe we're heavier, etc. etc.

In practice, I feel like we don't. We really can't gimp ROB (honestly, who can?) and a smart camper won't even let us get near. No reflector means we have to be on guard for the projectiles at all times. The only ROB I play against is extremely predictable but still does pretty well.

In the end, I'd say it's either even or a sliiiight advantage for DDD, 55:45. 56:44 if I could.

 

[chaos_]

lol how is this 50:50?

 

[MorphedChaos]

CG against ROB is deadly, and on Smashvile, if your on the platform, you CAN infinite rob momentarally. I'm not sure if you can Offstage Infinite him, but if you can, its so in D3's favor. Also, remember, once you get past the ROB's camp range, D3's disjointed hitboxes beat him out.

 

[GwJ]

I'm going to have to say 65:35. While ROB can get chaingrabbed, if you can just avoid that, the match is pretty much yours if the players are around equal skill levels. ROB's insane hitboxes and camping potential outweigh DDD if you can avoid his chaingrab.

 

[Gates]

CG against ROB is deadly, and on Smashvile, if your on the platform, you CAN infinite rob momentarally.

afaik, the Smashville platform trick applies to everyone he can cg.

So does anyone have any good strategies for getting past ROB's camptastic campitude?

 

[JCaesar]

In theory, it should be a huge advantage--we win in the air, we have the CG, I believe we're heavier, etc. etc.

In practice, I feel like we don't. We really can't gimp ROB (honestly, who can?) and a smart camper won't even let us get near. No reflector means we have to be on guard for the projectiles at all times. The only ROB I play against is extremely predictable but still does pretty well.

In the end, I'd say it's either even or a sliiiight advantage for DDD, 55:45. 56:44 if I could.

DDD is one of the few characters in the game that can really pressure ROB offstage. Multiple hops combined with that nasty bair just beats everything ROB can do, even airdodge unless it's perfectly timed. I've probably run out of gas vs DDD more than vs any other character.

I would agree with 55:45 in DDD's favor, if not 60:40, though that might be pushing it. Definitely one of ROB's toughest matchups.

 

[DRaGZ]

I agree with Coney's and JCaesar's assessments. Go with theirs. They're most likely completely right.

 

[Drecker]

In my experience, the only real ways I have found to take equal skill ROB's is... don't let them camp you. If this means taking them to closed stages, so be it. I like Lylat / Luigi's Mansion for this matchup personally.

 

[GwJ]

I guess I haven't really played any good DDD's.

 

[TheWaft]

Wow... that metaknight thing really helped. I just beat my friend's MK and I never beat it.

 

[napZzz]

I cant fight teh camy robs T_T

Its too hard to approach them.

 

[Nintendevil]

Yeah trying to camp back is a bad idea.

A good ROB will get up high or try to sweetspot rather than fight back Dedede's Gimping skills, so be sure to pressure them there, like with a ff bair. There are counters to a fastfalled bair over the edge though. Sometimes I'll either nair and if that doesn't hit, rising aridodge, or I might try to fight back with a fair and let all hell break loose (XP so far I'v been lucky.)

Approaching is a b*tch though. Either shad which D3 is good at, or jump out of the range of his projectiles, so long as you can avoid his physical attacks. Whenever you get the chance to CG, take it.

No idea about any numbers though close enough to even.

 

[jaaboy]

the light on the top of his head blinks when he is fully charged

 

[hizzlum]

CG against ROB is deadly, and on Smashvile, if your on the platform, you CAN infinite rob momentarally. I'm not sure if you can Offstage Infinite him, but if you can, its so in D3's favor. Also, remember, once you get past the ROB's camp range, D3's disjointed hitboxes beat him out.

Deadly? its the same as everyone else DDD can perform an SCG cuz Hitori, one of the best ROB's in california figured out that ROB can dsmash after every single dthrow DDD does, so the normal dash grab CG does not work in tourney play, you need to SCG which takes more precision with a foxtrot to sheild grab, but still pratical, but not as easy as the normal dash CG.
Your smashville arguement does not truly help the thread, yes DDD can just grab infite ROB on that moving platform yet he can do it on snake, wario and DDD to name some tourney viable characters.
From what I have been talking with pro DDD's, its a close match-up, but it seems to slightly tilt in DDD favor from 55-45 DDD to 60-40 DDD, esentially I think that SCG CG is crucial for DDD to get that % against a great camping character like ROB who can rack up damage with projectiles and has the knockback to get low % kills, but the SCG CG will rack up more % than the camping lasers and GYros

 

[Sudai]

I personally think this match up is 50-50. Camping till D3 gets close then Ledge camping completely negates the chain grab. I know D3 wins in the air, but all of D3's options against a ledged ROB are pretty predictable.

I'd go more in depth but it seems like everything has been covered aside from ledge camp options. I'll get into that later if people want.

 

[CO18]

Deadly? its the same as everyone else DDD can perform an SCG cuz Hitori, one of the best ROB's in california figured out that ROB can dsmash after every single dthrow DDD does, so the normal dash grab CG does not work in tourney play, you need to SCG which takes more precision with a foxtrot to sheild grab, but still pratical, but not as easy as the normal dash CG.
Your smashville arguement does not truly help the thread, yes DDD can just grab infite ROB on that moving platform yet he can do it on snake, wario and DDD to name some tourney viable characters.
From what I have been talking with pro DDD's, its a close match-up, but it seems to slightly tilt in DDD favor from 55-45 DDD to 60-40 DDD, esentially I think that SCG CG is crucial for DDD to get that % against a great camping character like ROB who can rack up damage with projectiles and has the knockback to get low % kills, but the SCG CG will rack up more % than the camping lasers and GYros

Dedede can easily chaingrab ROB with him trying to downsmash after every down throw. sigh.

All of Dedede's chaingrabs are inescapable on every character that can be chaingrabbed.

Someone just needs to work on their timing

 

[JCaesar]

Deadly? its the same as everyone else DDD can perform an SCG cuz Hitori, one of the best ROB's in california figured out that ROB can dsmash after every single dthrow DDD does, so the normal dash grab CG does not work in tourney play, you need to SCG which takes more precision with a foxtrot to sheild grab, but still pratical, but not as easy as the normal dash CG.

Not sure what you mean. Every time I'm being CGed I mash A to try to jab between the grabs (which is faster than dsmash btw) and it never works against even a half-decent DDD.

and has the knockback to get low % kills

Wha? ROB's knockback is horrendous for a top/high tier character. The only high tier character that can compete with his lack of KO power is Diddy. Even ROB's best KO move, usmash (difficult to hit with though so it's kind of irrelevant), can't kill DDD until well over 100% unless his DI is awful. ROB relies heavily on gimps in this matchup.

 

[Coney]

As long as you keep away from the nair, ROB will definitely have a hard time killing you. Best thing to do is try to punish the nair, if you can stay out of its range and follow up with a bair the ROB usually won't know what to do.

In summary, DDD's goal in this match is to CG and get in the air. ROB's goal is to be defensive, camp smart and generally just win on the ground. The CG makes that difficult, so refer back to camping.

Caeser, I'd like to try this match with a really good ROB and see what I can pick up :O

I'm gonna be at the tourney in Silver Spring on Sat., wanna do some friendlies?

Go gentle, I've only been to one other tourney a few months ago and got supremely destroyed by an IC infinite, got all humphy and johned all the way home. ;(

EDIT - edited for relevant information

 

[bschung]

Hizzlum, if you get the timing right on either chaingrab, dashing-grab or shield-cancel-grab, you can chaingrab characters without them escaping at all. So with correct timing a DDD player doing a real chaingrab should use either method to do it inescapably even on Marth, Pit, and Sonic... And you don't need a foxtrot, you need a single dash - are you sure you know what a foxtrot is? You caused a debate about the CG during Marth discussion, for no reason, too. Stop posting stuff that can confuse people who don't main DDD (i.e. people who main the character we're discussing, who have been kind to contribute to the discussion here) or otherwise might not know better. Step it up dude.

Now that that's out of the way: the best thing to do about ROB's projectile camping is likely to walk (not run) towards him and perfect-shield the projectiles. If you pull off the perfect-shield, you'll see just how laggy ROB's neutral-B and down-B really are. When you get in range for D3's f-tilt, it is a good poke. Up closer, ROB's jab, ftilt, and dtilt, are going to be annoying, but shield-grab-able IF not spaced perfectly. Another thing to potentially watch out for is his repeated up-tilts at low percent.

Get ROB offstage. Stay between him and the stage/ledge. The offstage fight is where DDD wins as long as you do it right. Just be careful because ROB's aerials can be dangerous too. The chaingrab is a great way to get him offstage from anywhere.

As far as LEDGE camping. .... ROB is too good on the ledge (Up-Air, enough said). Anybody have anything good for that? The best i can think of is Never lose the percent/stock lead.

 

[CO18]

Hizzlum, "Normal" dash grab is not even a question when chaingrabbing, most characters can spotdodge, rolldodge, jab, up-B, etc. to get out of that. It's only good for baiting out those specific reactions, to punish their predictability with dash attack, fsmash, run past and pivot grab, etc. mindgames that only work on players who either mistakenly think you suck at CGing properly, or just don't know better and are very predictable.

A real DDD player doing a real chaingrab should be using shield-grab to cancel his dash, you get more d-throws in in the same distance, and it's the only way for it to be truly inescapable (Yes, including Marth, Sonic, and Pit). And you don't need a foxtrot, you need a single dash which you interrupt with your shield - are you sure you know what a foxtrot is? You caused a debate about the CG during Marth discussion, for no reason, too. Read the stickied threads and stop posting stuff that can confuse people who don't main DDD (i.e. people who main the character we're discussing, who have been kind to contribute to the discussion here) or otherwise might not know better. Step it up dude.

Now that that's out of the way: the best thing to do about ROB's projectile camping is likely to walk (not run) towards him and perfect-shield the projectiles. If you pull off the perfect-shield, you'll see just how laggy ROB's neutral-B and down-B really are. When you get in range for D3's f-tilt, it is a good poke. Up closer, ROB's jab, ftilt, and dtilt, are going to be annoying, but shield-grab-able IF not spaced perfectly. Another thing to potentially watch out for is his repeated up-tilts at low percent.

Get ROB offstage. Stay between him and the stage/ledge. The offstage fight is where DDD wins as long as you do it right. Just be careful because ROB's aerials can be dangerous too. The chaingrab is a great way to get him offstage from anywhere.

As far as LEDGE camping. .... ROB is too good on the ledge (Up-Air, enough said). Anybody have anything good for that? The best i can think of is Never lose the percent/stock lead.

Noone can escape a dashing grab either, including marth, sonic, pit... I made a vid of it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5aBzao3Aus

 

[bschung]

Noone can escape a dashing grab either, including marth, sonic, pit... I made a vid of it..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5aBzao3Aus

Thanks for pointing that out. I edited my post. Also, this means that this (from the stickied thread) is not accurate:

Chain grab: Throwing the opponent in a given direction to catch them before their character has time to react. In King Dedede's case this is with Dthrow. Grab your opponent Dthrow, and instantly chase him, some characters require you to Shield Cancel Grab (SCG) in order for another grab to connect.

Either way, it is possible to chaingrab with timing.

 

[Nintendevil]

I think the conclusion is, ROB owns long distance, D3 owns close combat. They've both got insane gimping skill and aerial combat. D3 may have slightly better gimping, but ROB has a slightly better Recovery to make up.

That's why it's most commonly considered near even, so I'm not going to imo give it 50-50 or 55-45 D3's favor.

 

[Mikey7]

I think its 55 45 Dedede, ROB's campiness (or anyone's campiness for that matter) is solved by powershielding except watch out for his grounded gyro's ability to attack. ROB gets ***** by CG (I played an offensive Rob and got a 40 or 50% grab across Pokemon Stadium), but realistically hes going to be playing by the edge so it doesnt matter that much, bair is your best bet here again. Forget about edgeguarding him and its annoying getting a kill move off...Its a pretty even matchup its just I think Dedede's size gives him the slight advantage.

Oh and the only time I've ever heard about any foxtrot in the middle of a CG was when it was brought up in this thread...so people: Dedede can just dash. Dedede's grab range is so large that he barely has to dash for Rob to regrab him...so theres no possible way a Rob could downsmash unless you really dont use Dedede's grab range at all during the CG

 

[Nikz0r]

I personally think this match up is 50-50. Camping till D3 gets close then Ledge camping completely negates the chain grab. I know D3 wins in the air, but all of D3's options against a ledged ROB are pretty predictable.

I'd go more in depth but it seems like everything has been covered aside from ledge camp options. I'll get into that later if people want.

This. Ledge-camping is extremely hard for D3 to get around, which makes this fight a 50-50. If the ROB doesn't ledge-camp I'd say it's probably in D3's favor just a little bit, 55-45 or 60-40. Everything else, as said, has pretty much been covered. Careful shielding approaches, air domination, etc. etc. Oh yeah, don't stay too long on the ledge yourself, as a smart ROB will just drop down and Bair stage spike you. Lol. =P

 

[JCaesar]

As long as you keep away from the nair, ROB will definitely have a hard time killing you. Best thing to do is try to punish the nair, if you can stay out of its range and follow up with a bair the ROB usually won't know what to do.

In summary, DDD's goal in this match is to CG and get in the air. ROB's goal is to be defensive, camp smart and generally just win on the ground. The CG makes that difficult, so refer back to camping.

Caeser, I'd like to try this match with a really good ROB and see what I can pick up :O

I'm gonna be at the tourney in Silver Spring on Sat., wanna do some friendlies?

Go gentle, I've only been to one other tourney a few months ago and got supremely destroyed by an IC infinite, got all humphy and johned all the way home. ;(

EDIT - edited for relevant information

Sure I'll play with you a bit Coney. I'll be the guy wearing this shirt:

Hehehe.

Just to add a bit, leaving a gyro on the ground at all times can make a big difference in this match. It can stop a CG (and thrown Waddle Dees I think), DDD has trouble picking it up due to his ****ty dash attack, and even if he does grab it he can't do anything useful with it. ROB on the other hand can grab it easily, and DDD's fat *** is particularly susceptible to glide-toss and gyro-drop combos. Just leaving it between you can also force DDD to approach a certain way, which can be punished. It's not easy to get a gyro out to the ground though, since shields make them disappear.

 

[RATED]

in what stage can I counterpick agaisnt rob in that matchup?

 

[Foursaken]

in what stage can I counterpick agaisnt rob in that matchup?

Pick Aero Port town if you can, **** ledge camping!

Or Castle Siege. The stage change and second part are good for chain grabbing rob off stage.

 

[JCaesar]

Yeah, Castle Siege or Delfino, anywhere you can take advantage of your broke-*** CG.

 

[Sudai]

Delfino and Castle Siege are the most commonly allowed stages that I fear from D3. Castle Siege would probably be your better option to CP as well since you're guaranteed walk offs (Delfino's landings are random) and ROB doesn't get to attack through the bottom of the stage anymore. I was taken to Port Town a few times in Texas (lolwut at their CPs) and it was a very, very hard fight for me. No ledges and smallish stage (for the most part) take away a lot of what ROB has going for him. This stage's large blast zones also make D3's strength advantage that much more obvious. I can't see anyone getting to CP that though because on the off chance it's legal, I'm banning it vs D3.

As for neutrals to take ROB to through striking, Lylat or PS1 is where you want to go (I rarely see neither on the neutral list). Lylat because the platforms are nice for D3 but ROB can't camp under them and the tilting stage makes ROB's projectiles a bit different to use. PS1 for the walls.

 

[Gates]

So what's everyone think about the "Angry Stomp" that prevents ROB from being grabbed? How likely will most ROBs use this?

 

[Atomsk_92]

approaching with D-air double jumps seems to be good vs ROB

 

[JCaesar]

So what's everyone think about the "Angry Stomp" that prevents ROB from being grabbed? How likely will most ROBs use this?

Completely irrelevant "AT" that doesn't affect any matchups, even if it does turn out to be true, which it probably isn't.

 

[Foursaken]

So what's everyone think about the "Angry Stomp" that prevents ROB from being grabbed? How likely will most ROBs use this?

The match up immediately turns 70:30 R.O.B. Us D3's have no advance techs that sound nearly as cool as the angry stomp.

Except for the sliding bubble grab, which is gay.