Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[JST]

You guys should do Marth next.

*Runs away

We should.

Marth is one of my favorite fights along with Meta Knight and Wario (As long as I'm DDD, that is. ).

 

[Gates]

You guys should do Marth next.

*Runs away

I'm going to do Marth last now, just because you said that. Here's the schedule for the final 6 weeks:

Week 35 - Ganondorf
Week 36 - Captain Falcon
Week 37 - Roy
Week 38 - Mewtwo
Week 39 - ****
Week 40 - Marth



But seriously, I'm trying to get the bad matchups out of the way before any even or favorable ones. The thread tends to be much more active this way (when we were discussing Snake I think it would have slipped off the first page if I hadn't kept bumping it all the time). On the other hand, we did just discuss 4 bad matchups in a row, so a break might be nice.

What does everyone think of me rearranging the schedule again?
PM ME WITH YOUR THOUGHTS, DO NOT DISCUSS THEM HERE OR I WILL SHOVE MY FOOT SO FAR UP YOUR *** THAT YOU'LL BE ABLE TO TASTE MY INGROWN TOENAIL!

SO NEWAY, HOW BOUT DEM PIKACHUS, AMIRITE?

 

[M15t3R E]

=]

You can count on me to be active here on Week 39

 

[lain]

It's hard. I play with Anther all the time, seeing as how he lives 15 minutes away.

It's really hard. Pikachu has it 60/40. Both characters have a great cg on each other (lrn2techchase). Pikachu is small, so kinda hard to hit. Crazy speed doesn't help either.

But Dedede can kill pika at low percents with utilt. Just rack up damage with techchasing correctly, then get an utilt in. Spamming bairs for spacing helps so much.

But yeah it sucks lol.

 

[Anther]

15? it's like 5. You could come visit more often, I mean srsly ;_;

 

[CO18]

I beat Anther but he beats me more

 

[MorphedChaos]

How about DK next week? (That'll last like, what... 2 days?)

And yeah, watch out for pika's CG.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DK vs DDD = 100:0 DDDs favour

next please!

 

[Gates]

Gheb basically said what I was going to on DK. Even if you're like me and can't do the full standing infinite, it's enough in our favor for it to not really be any concern to us.

And seriously, if you want to talk about the matchup order PM me. I don't want the thread getting derailed, especially not when we're discussing an important matchup like this one.

That said, it does seem like you guys need breaks from testing out these hard matchups all the time so I will adjust the discussion order so that next week we will be discussing a matchup that is roughly even or slightly in our favor.

 

[Mikey7]

Best advice I can give is to avoid up + B at all costs you will just get ***** by a smart Pikachu. The CG Pikachu has racks up a good amount of damage...but if your DI is good it shouldn't affect you too much since Pikachu doesn't really have that great of kill moves. Last time I fought a Pikachu, I lived until 150~230% because Pikachu's down B, as well as most of his(?) kill moves are easy to predict.

Watch out for projectile, it is easily one of the best in the game, is spammable, and can rack up damage if you aren't paying attention to it, just perfect shield it.

For QAC, there is basically nothing you can do about it, just shield and hope that Pikachu doesn't hit through shield or roll away...

Down + B is only a problem for morons, it is so predictable...just like I said before just don't use up + B

Remember that Pikachu has limited range and exploit that with bairs and spaced f tilts. Don't go for a dair because Pikachu is small. Suck up is pretty useful again.

Marth may be a better topic than ROB for next discussion because even though Dedede has the advantage, its as much as over ROB.

I will possibly edit/add more later. 60/40 Pikachu for obvious reasons.

 

[Gates]

Ok, I think we can close the discussion on pikachu now.

I will get the pikachu and ICs matchups up someday, I promise.

MARTH DISCUSSION GO!
(for the record, EmblemLord's post did not influence my decision to discuss Marth this week in any way)

 

[MorphedChaos]

Get a grab, CG to Bair off stage, marth dies. Thats all I need to know. XD, and thats all it takes, Marth has a bad recovery. Sure Dolphin's Slash is 1 frame,but your Bair goes through it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I already posted my thoughts on this one in the Marth boards. I gave a 60:40 in Dededes favour. Marth is more prone to mistakes - one spacing mistake and he's badly punished. On the other hand Marth can't even punish a badly spaced ftilt (unless it's reeaaaaaaaaly badly misspaced) and Dedede is fat = hard to KO

 

[hizzlum]

As I have played with DDD, I have counterpicked Halberd as the strangly low ceiling is great on MK,pikas, and G&W's for utilt kills below 100% with DI. Im just putting that out there beacuse Halberd has an obviously low ceiling and gets kills at lower % than most times.

As for the points above, marth has a CG on DDD with the fthrow, which can be used to set up for a dair at the end of the stage, which Cuba is death(one of the best marths in california) recognizes and uses it also on falcos. Marth's agility with his aerials makes it tough for DDD to get some hits in as an ftilt is not the anwser to marth's multiple approaches but it does stop many of them. Also you have to SCG a tourney marth or a marth with skill and with little forgiveness in frames. Many ddd's just like to bthrow instead of get hit with the occasonal dolphin slash. DDD is heavy but marth is going to control the pace of the match as DDD has a difficult time CGing a marth which requires near perfect frame SCG's and so it should remain as it is on the marth boards and also what emblem lord has stated many times, 50-50.

 

[Gates]

Getting the CG timing right really isn't that hard if you practice it enough. If you do it right enough times you won't get hit by the upB, which can be punished afterwards anyway. If I remember correctly, Marth is light (lighter than Mario anyway) so his helpless state after the upB can be utilted at higher percentages.

I didn't know about Marth's CG on us though. This changes things.

 

[hizzlum]

Getting the CG timing right really isn't that hard if you practice it enough. If you do it right enough times you won't get hit by the upB, which can be punished afterwards anyway. If I remember correctly, Marth is light (lighter than Mario anyway) so his helpless state after the upB can be utilted at higher percentages.

I didn't know about Marth's CG on us though. This changes things.

Play a tourney marth and u=you'll see how difficult it is to near perfect frame SCG them, why not just bthrow when the CG requires machine like technical skill that DDD pros I have talk to say its not worth it?
Marth cg on DDD is on ulevo's list and I have tested it with my oppopent trying to DI out of it. Marth can fthrow foxtrot fthrow a DDD with much more ease than DDD's SCG chain throw on marth. Yes marth is light but he is going to be aggresive like all marths and his over range and speed let him get that crucial extra % that let him kill with a foward smash or an up-b. Marth boards and emblem lord say this is even, I main both charcaters in brawl(swicthed to DDD so I could place higher in tournies and used marth in melee also)and I cannot stress enough that this match-up is 50-50.

 

[Gates]

Play a tourney marth and u=you'll see how difficult it is to near perfect frame SCG them, why not just bthrow when the CG requires machine like technical skill that DDD pros I have talk to say its not worth it?

I think you're overestimating the difficulty in correctly CGing. I'm not saying it's easy by any means but you make it sound like it takes a level of techskill on par with M2K, which it does not. I'll admit that I haven't played a ton of amazing Marths, but I have never had a problem with getting surprise dolphin slashed unless I'm not focusing enough on the actual chaingrab.

Marth cg on DDD is on ulevo's list and I have tested it with my oppopent trying to DI out of it. Marth can fthrow foxtrot fthrow a DDD with much more ease than DDD's SCG chain throw on marth.

I tried the Marth CG on Dedede earlier tonight and my thoughts are generally that it's a nice trick but that Marth probably has better options. It's true that you're guaranteed hits until 12% and that it's not completely escapably until 150%, but it doesn't do nearly as much damage as Dedede's CG on Marth. Marth's fthrow starts at like 5 and stales to 3. Even with his fast grab attack, it's still only 6 to 8 damage per grab. On top of that, it knocks Dedede pretty far back so you won't be able to continue it very long (you can get like 8 whole throws across Final Destination I believe - the exact number is hazy but I think this is close). The only uses I can think of for the chaingrab are punishing mistakes (which you have some better options in), or maybe as a setup (chaingrab into SHDF works well, continuing with the Ken combo is more difficult but doable). There's not much that Marth's CG can do that Dancing Blade can't except get Dedede to the edge quicker. Still, I guess this is definitely something to watch out for.

As for the stats, I agree that it's about neutral but I think it's at least slightly in Dedede's favor, like 55:45.

 

[hizzlum]

I think you're overestimating the difficulty in correctly CGing. I'm not saying it's easy by any means but you make it sound like it takes a level of techskill on par with M2K, which it does not. I'll admit that I haven't played a ton of amazing Marths, but I have never had a problem with getting surprise dolphin slashed unless I'm not focusing enough on the actual chaingrab.

I tried the Marth CG on Dedede earlier tonight and my thoughts are generally that it's a nice trick but that Marth probably has better options. It's true that you're guaranteed hits until 12% and that it's not completely escapably until 150%, but it doesn't do nearly as much damage as Dedede's CG on Marth. Marth's fthrow starts at like 5 and stales to 3. Even with his fast grab attack, it's still only 6 to 8 damage per grab. On top of that, it knocks Dedede pretty far back so you won't be able to continue it very long (you can get like 8 whole throws across Final Destination I believe - the exact number is hazy but I think this is close). The only uses I can think of for the chaingrab are punishing mistakes (which you have some better options in), or maybe as a setup (chaingrab into SHDF works well, continuing with the Ken combo is more difficult but doable). There's not much that Marth's CG can do that Dancing Blade can't except get Dedede to the edge quicker. Still, I guess this is definitely something to watch out for.

As for the stats, I agree that it's about neutral but I think it's at least slightly in Dedede's favor, like 55:45.

Have you played smashers who constantly go tournies as marth and DDD? Watch Mikehaze vs Aero and you will see no chain grabs and maybe one Dthrow techchase, but no actual CG's from DDD and Aero is in the top ten rankings in socal and is one of the bst DDD's in the nation and he does not chain grab a marth who is ranked high on the socal rankings and emblem lord as said that mikehaze is a true example of marth's metagame. At tournies in norcal marth vs DDD matches DDD only bthrows(and norcal isone of the best smash communities in the US, as Isai and DBR have there roots there) so if you go to in peson tournies and played a distinguished marth with DDD that prove to have more skill than either mikehaze or Aero, you need to find out framerates for DDD's SCG cg on marth beacuse the bthrow is used against him rather than the dthrow in the metagame.
As marth's fthrow, marth tourney go'ers see this less as a damaging tactic like DDD's CG, rather it gives great positioning. CUba is death(one of the best marths in california) and I talked about this fthrow marth has against falco and DDD, and I,like you said that it doesnt put out mch % why use it at a tourney when ur in grab range of DDD's bthrow? His anwser was, marths fthrow CG to edge gives the perfect spacing for marth to tipper dair DDD or falco, which means low % kills on falco or on a heavy character like DDD, which usually gets killed by marth around 140% if the DDD has great DI. The tipper dair also makes up for the lack of % the fthrow makes and after the dair, there are many edgeguarding oppurtunities for marth.
I think that Cuba is death, recignized by the enitre smash cummunity as a person at the DBR level of play, a person whose techskill has found some groundbreaking info on this game that will change DDD's metagame forever, has more knowledge on this game than your statements. He,emblem lord,marth match-up boards, all say an even match as DDD needs to punish mistakes in this match-up, regardless DDD always will have a chance against marth. 50-50 dude, tourney pros say it and people of the SBR say it, so I can only agree its 50-50

 

[Mikey7]

Have you played smashers who constantly go tournies as marth and DDD? Watch Mikehaze vs Aero and you will see no chain grabs and maybe one Dthrow techchase, but no actual CG's from DDD and Aero is in the top ten rankings in socal and is one of the bst DDD's in the nation and he does not chain grab a marth who is ranked high on the socal rankings and emblem lord as said that mikehaze is a true example of marth's metagame. At tournies in norcal marth vs DDD matches DDD only bthrows(and norcal isone of the best smash communities in the US, as Isai and DBR have there roots there) so if you go to in peson tournies and played a distinguished marth with DDD that prove to have more skill than either mikehaze or Aero, you need to find out framerates for DDD's SCG cg on marth beacuse the bthrow is used against him rather than the dthrow in the metagame.
As marth's fthrow, marth tourney go'ers see this less as a damaging tactic like DDD's CG, rather it gives great positioning. CUba is death(one of the best marths in california) and I talked about this fthrow marth has against falco and DDD, and I,like you said that it doesnt put out mch % why use it at a tourney when ur in grab range of DDD's bthrow? His anwser was, marths fthrow CG to edge gives the perfect spacing for marth to tipper dair DDD or falco, which means low % kills on falco or on a heavy character like DDD, which usually gets killed by marth around 140% if the DDD has great DI. The tipper dair also makes up for the lack of % the fthrow makes and after the dair, there are many edgeguarding oppurtunities for marth.
I think that Cuba is death, recignized by the enitre smash cummunity as a person at the DBR level of play, a person whose techskill has found some groundbreaking info on this game that will change DDD's metagame forever, has more knowledge on this game than your statements. He,emblem lord,marth match-up boards, all say an even match as DDD needs to punish mistakes in this match-up, regardless DDD always will have a chance against marth. 50-50 dude, tourney pros say it and people of the SBR say it, so I can only agree its 50-50

Just because Aero doesn't CG Marth doesn't mean its an unusable tactic. I CG Marths easily, I do it without even thinking because I have experience...there is nothing technical about it...just downthrow and smash over at the right time then regrab. Aero doesn't CG because he said he DOES NOT LIKE TO CG. This match up is in Dedede's favor. It is really tough for Marth to get a grab off when Dedede tries to get grabs off on him and has a huge grab range.

In my experience if you wait for Marth to attack you, it is not going to be a good result, his spaced fairs land just outside grab range and ftilt is not a good option. Constant WOP bairs are the way to go. Or just predicting his fair with your own bair works. I find that bair is just a better move in general. Fair is more spammable but bair comes out quicker I think (correct me if I'm wrong im speaking strictly on experience, I don't know the technicalities)

A common Marth shield pressure move popularized by NEO is shuffled fair into DB. Dedede can shield all of this, then shield grab DB into chaingrab. Also there is a slight pause after the 3rd hit of DB if the Marth does the down pokes (blade turns green) where you can also shield grab. Be sure to keep your shield full by running away

Seibrik posted earlier that it is extremely smart to purposely bait Marth by screwing up a CG then using jet hammer to finish him off on a later CG. Dedede kind of has a hard time with kill moves against Marth, so mixups and variations off of the CG are extremely useful.

A good thing to remember is that Marth has 1 option: to attack, so exploit running away and using ledges to regain the shield. Fair has no use at all in this unless Marth is like on a platform or something. Also, Marth's recovery is absolutely abysmal, one of the worst in the game, its predictable, gimpable, and short. There isnt much he can do except pray that he doesn't get baired during it.

What Marth can do though is put alot of pressure on the shield with spaced fairs and nairs, kill with up B, and edgeguard really well.

I'll edit later

 

[hizzlum]

Just because Aero doesn't CG Marth doesn't mean its an unusable tactic. I CG Marths easily, I do it without even thinking because I have experience...there is nothing technical about it...just downthrow and smash over at the right time then regrab. Aero doesn't CG because he said he DOES NOT LIKE TO CG. This match up is in Dedede's favor. It is really tough for Marth to get a grab off when Dedede tries to get grabs off on him and has a huge grab range.

In my experience if you wait for Marth to attack you, it is not going to be a good result, his spaced fairs land just outside grab range and ftilt is not a good option. Constant WOP bairs are the way to go. Or just predicting his fair with your own bair works. I find that bair is just a better move in general. Fair is more spammable but bair comes out quicker I think (correct me if I'm wrong im speaking strictly on experience, I don't know the technicalities)

A common Marth shield pressure move popularized by NEO is shuffled fair into DB. Dedede can shield all of this, then shield grab DB into chaingrab. Also there is a slight pause after the 3rd hit of DB if the Marth does the down pokes (blade turns green) where you can also shield grab. Be sure to keep your shield full by running away

Seibrik posted earlier that it is extremely smart to purposely bait Marth by screwing up a CG then using jet hammer to finish him off on a later CG. Dedede kind of has a hard time with kill moves against Marth, so mixups and variations off of the CG are extremely useful.

A good thing to remember is that Marth has 1 option: to attack, so exploit running away and using ledges to regain the shield. Fair has no use at all in this unless Marth is like on a platform or something. Also, Marth's recovery is absolutely abysmal, one of the worst in the game, its predictable, gimpable, and short. There isnt much he can do except pray that he doesn't get baired during it.

What Marth can do though is put alot of pressure on the shield with spaced fairs and nairs, kill with up B, and edgeguard really well.

I'll edit later

What marths have you played, CPU's? You need to fpxtrot to Sheild cancel grab a marth in order to chain throw him, and most good DDD's (zelgadis, cuba is death and also emblem lord) recognize that the timing is inhuman and requires extreme technical skill(if zelgadis, one of the best foxes in melee with one of the best combo videos ever made, has difficulty doing it, I would not try to SCG CG a tourney going marth). You say its as easy as "just downthrow and smash over at the right time then regrab.", when you have to foxtrot then sheild and grab as marth slides far enough to up-b a DDD attempting this CG.

Marth's grab range is not as good as DDD's, but that doesnt mean it any where in bad, he has one of the better no tether grab ranges in the game(probably top 5), so its not really tough for marth to pull out the fthrow CG to an eventual tipper dair, his grab range is impressive only slightly second to DDD.
WOP bairs on the stage will not prove a great threat to marth, and marth fair's range and quickness is much better that DDD's bair(both are great aerials, marths is just better).
The only time when the WOP bairs would be applicable is for edgeguarding, which I use a ton as DDD and is very effective on most characters, but a tourney going marth could find the right moment to airdodge or if he knows that a bair has gimped him and he cant get to the ledge, I have seen marth's up-b , taking out the opponent DDD with a stagespike.

You forgot to mention shieldbreaker, marth's move agaisnt defensive characters, like DDD. Marth will probably still use DB and fairs and nairs as approaches, but the range and the effect his sheild breaker has causes DDD, to use another option unless he risks a broken sheild and then a fully charged tipper fsmash.

As for marth having a bad recovery, its gimpable yet dangerous to edgegaurd with the stagespike side effect. Good DDD's like Aero dont try to edgeguard martths like mikehaze, they much rather utilt or dtilt through mindgames when he tries to get back to the stage from the ledge.
And saying marth's only option is to attack can be countered wih the fact that DDD's only option in this metagame is to grab. Marth's grab game is still pretty good, and was one of the best in melee, and so combo like dthrow to tipper fsmash happen at low percentages, and remeber his fthrow to tipper dair at the end of the ledge is not going to be good for DDD.
Emblem Lord and I talked about this match up yesterday, and we came to the consensus that this match is 50-50 by what was stated above, I mained marth for a long time and I used DDD as an alternate back hen, but I main him now. Marth will obviously be putting the pressure in the match, forcing DDD to punish all the small mistakes the agile character makes with brthorws, utilts, and bairs, and also DDD get lower % kills butmarth is going to be racking up % on DDD when DDD get his punish %.
DDD is an amzing character, but without a consistent chain grab(word for word what emblem lord said) on an agile character makes this match-up difficult, but marth has to face low % kills and an impressive grab game that exceeds his.
Again I say 50-50 with the knowledge I have gained from emblem lord and CUba is death, both of who are respected smashers in this community.

 

[CO18]

Umm it is easy to Chaingrab Marth with a little practice wtf are you talking about. Do tourney level marth's press Up+b better than others? lol

Anyway whether you can chaingrab marth or not is soley based off of your cging skills and it's not that difficult.

Anyway im too lazy to give a giant summary but Dedede's chaingrab just simply gives him more control, Marth vs DDD is basically a spacing match, ddd's bair vs marth's fair in the air then on the ground they both have good options but mainly due to the automatic control Dedede's chaingrab gives him over a match, the fact that he can gimp marth even if it may not be as easy as some other chars and that hes more difficult to kill.

Its 55:45 in DDD's favor imo.

 

[Steel]

Marth boards recently moved this match to 55:45, Dedede favor.

 

[Taiki]

To fight marth goal number 1 should be to not get ledged. A good marth can cover all your ledge options to the point where it's violently wrong, meaning you could lose your stock. I regularly practice aganist my friend who mains marth and he loves to start each and every one of my stocks with a forward throw chaingrab to tipper f-smash for 30 damage, and putting me in an edgeguarding situation.

Do your best to not be put in a situation where you are forced to up-b, King D's recovery is so harassable its a joke. Marth can counter, up-smash, or wait for the fall proceed to sheild the star and then forward smash. If you can converse at least 1 jump before your up-b.

The match is barely favorable for Dedede because he outranges marth with f-tilt and can bair through fair spam. You can chaingrab but remember if you screw up you'll be met with an whale render (its too quick and powerful, that crap cuts through whales man.) Remember D3 is also a tank and can withstand quite a bit of punishment over marth who is rather light. Marth's recovery is also rather gimpable if you catch him in a position where its iffy if she'll make it back if she up-b's offensively. Watch for a up-b stage spike if you go for a gimp.

the matchup is 55-45 dedede's favor

 

[Blad01]

Hello DDD Mains !

In Ganondorf forum, we are currently discussing DDD Match-up Please contribute : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199529.

Thanks

 

[Gates]

Hello DDD Mains !

In Ganondorf forum, we are currently discussing DDD Match-up Please contribute : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199529.

Thanks

That's nice but I would prefer if you had created a separate thread for it.

Also, can Marth do his chaingrab infinitely on us against a wall? I ask because I usually CP Pokemon Stadium 1 against Marth because of the wall on the fire stage and the pseudo-walls on the rock and water stages. However, if Marth can do to us what we can to do him against walls, I might rethink my decision.

 

[Steel]

I'm unsure about a grab lock (i don't think so), but he can dtilt lock against walls.

 

[Mikey7]

What marths have you played, CPU's? You need to fpxtrot to Sheild cancel grab a marth in order to chain throw him, and most good DDD's (zelgadis, cuba is death and also emblem lord) recognize that the timing is inhuman and requires extreme technical skill(if zelgadis, one of the best foxes in melee with one of the best combo videos ever made, has difficulty doing it, I would not try to SCG CG a tourney going marth). You say its as easy as "just downthrow and smash over at the right time then regrab.", when you have to foxtrot then sheild and grab as marth slides far enough to up-b a DDD attempting this CG.

Marth's grab range is not as good as DDD's, but that doesnt mean it any where in bad, he has one of the better no tether grab ranges in the game(probably top 5), so its not really tough for marth to pull out the fthrow CG to an eventual tipper dair, his grab range is impressive only slightly second to DDD.
WOP bairs on the stage will not prove a great threat to marth, and marth fair's range and quickness is much better that DDD's bair(both are great aerials, marths is just better).
The only time when the WOP bairs would be applicable is for edgeguarding, which I use a ton as DDD and is very effective on most characters, but a tourney going marth could find the right moment to airdodge or if he knows that a bair has gimped him and he cant get to the ledge, I have seen marth's up-b , taking out the opponent DDD with a stagespike.

You forgot to mention shieldbreaker, marth's move agaisnt defensive characters, like DDD. Marth will probably still use DB and fairs and nairs as approaches, but the range and the effect his sheild breaker has causes DDD, to use another option unless he risks a broken sheild and then a fully charged tipper fsmash.

As for marth having a bad recovery, its gimpable yet dangerous to edgegaurd with the stagespike side effect. Good DDD's like Aero dont try to edgeguard martths like mikehaze, they much rather utilt or dtilt through mindgames when he tries to get back to the stage from the ledge.
And saying marth's only option is to attack can be countered wih the fact that DDD's only option in this metagame is to grab. Marth's grab game is still pretty good, and was one of the best in melee, and so combo like dthrow to tipper fsmash happen at low percentages, and remeber his fthrow to tipper dair at the end of the ledge is not going to be good for DDD.
Emblem Lord and I talked about this match up yesterday, and we came to the consensus that this match is 50-50 by what was stated above, I mained marth for a long time and I used DDD as an alternate back hen, but I main him now. Marth will obviously be putting the pressure in the match, forcing DDD to punish all the small mistakes the agile character makes with brthorws, utilts, and bairs, and also DDD get lower % kills butmarth is going to be racking up % on DDD when DDD get his punish %.
DDD is an amzing character, but without a consistent chain grab(word for word what emblem lord said) on an agile character makes this match-up difficult, but marth has to face low % kills and an impressive grab game that exceeds his.
Again I say 50-50 with the knowledge I have gained from emblem lord and CUba is death, both of who are respected smashers in this community.

It is (as previously stated by more than just me) extremely easy to cg Marth. Like I said I do it consistently, so I don't know what your argument is just because some Dededes can't do it doesn't mean it applies to everybody. I've never had a Marth break out of my cg like that before (minus when i started early). Yesterday I tested it and it worked perfectly, try it out yourself (have someone smash upB and try to perfectly cg him, you will see in 5 mins you will get it down). I tested bair vs fair out yesterday actually with a Marth I played (who actually plays alot and is quite good and places decently in tournaments) and Dedede's bair is on par with fair its just that you have to be patient when using it. I managed to bair through fair yesterday a couple times though, I still need further testing if anyone wants to try it out. Stop basing your arguments on theory and get some experience. I would never tell the community something that didn't actually happen or that I did not think to be 100% true. I base all my posts off experience.

What kind of idiot gets up B edgespiked by marth...thats enough said right there, the fact is that Marth doesn't have options as hes recovering. Im talking about if I jump clean off the stage, predict Marth's airdodge and/or attack with my multiple jumps then punish him...what can he do...hope that I screw up. Not that its ever needed anyways its extremely risky and uncalled for since Marth is so light.

Marth's grab game is abysmal. His throws do like 4% for a combined chaingrab of like 30%? vs 20% every time Marth gets grabbed

Shield breaker - a mixup at best, what do you expect for Marth to consistenly use shieldbreaker? Shieldbreaker can be negated by power shielding also.

Marth has a hard time killing unless its a tipper or up B. I live until ridiculous percentages when I play Marth. No way Marth goes even, Dedede can exploit alot of his weaknesses.

I still say 60/40. BTW I tried to come off as non-hostile as possible, should be a discussion not an argument.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They both exploit each other's weaknesses.

Dedede barely gets by due to his weight.

He can take more punishment and if Marth screws up he can get around 25% from a CG.

I give it to Dedede. 55/45.

Mikey7: Grab game isn't just about damage. Think about it.

 

[Mikey7]

They both exploit each other's weaknesses.

Dedede barely gets by due to his weight.

He can take more punishment and if Marth screws up he can get around 25% from a CG.

I give it to Dedede. 55/45.

Mikey7: Grab game isn't just about damage. Think about it.

Yeah I know its about controlling the stage mostly but seriously at 20%+ an extra back/forward throw each grab I feel like its an easy way to rack up damage quickly. By no means do I mean to spam grab, but its a huge advantage if Marth messes up at all or if Marth tries the whole shuffle fair into DB shield pressure technique.

 

[bschung]

Observations drawn from personal experience, on a few of the things that've been discussed so far:

Chaingrabbing Marth - Practice it. The timing is harder than it is for other characters but it's absolutely feasible, and certainly not "inhuman." However, you can easily fail if the stage is not perfectly flat. Beware of the downhill of Lylat's tilt. Or parts of Delfino that are sloped or rounded. End your chaingrab when you reach that type of terrain, or you will get dolphin slashed. Do chaingrab him across the stage to a wall where you can dthrow infinite.

Marth's grab game - It's useful in a few situations, whereas DDD's is useful in many situations. 0-30% (fthrow x3 fsmash) and it gets you offstage or on the ledge. Just be careful of it when you're at 0 or low percent. Later on in your stock his grabs are less to worry about except if he tries to use it as one of his options to move you towards a wall, where he can DOWN TILT LOCK you. (costs you your stock, refreshes his moveset, etc)

Marth on the stage, DDD on the ledge - this is the worst position that can occur in this matchup. Never retreat to the ledge just to regenerate your shield, I think that's a terrible idea. Don't ever let him pressure you to the ledge. Shield-grab his dancing blade, waddle toss his fair-zoning. If you retreat and he chases, throw out a bair behind you.

Marth's recovery - gimpable. Sure, be careful of getting hit, but you can do it if you're smart about it. Don't let him live to high percent, this is pretty much DDD's most important advantage (that DDD himself will live to high percent). Send him offstage far and low rather than far and high if you can, so as to limit his return options more.

DDD's recovery - very harrassable. Conserve jumps if you can before using your up-B. Mix it up or else he's going to knock you offstage perpetually. One thing I personally like to use is to perfectly space the up-B such that you land immediately at the apex of your jump. To me this is easiest on Yoshi's Island. He can still punish this if he expects it though.

DDD's bair vs. Marth's fair - use a retreating bair, rather than an approaching bair. Harass him with waddles and ftilt to bait out a chase, kick him in the face as you run. If he's just fair zoning and you're not in its immediate range, just throw a gordo, it's safe.

Shieldbreaker - You may be tempted to punish it, but you probably shouldn't as its ending lag is quite short, and DDD is slow horizontally. Also note that unless it is FULLY charged (in which case your shield breaks) it will always take away 80% of your shield, no matter how much or how little it was charged. So attempting the powershield is somewhat safe if you have a full shield, as long as the marth doesn't charge it all the way. It's a smaller issue than everything else mentioned here, but if you slip up I suppose the results can be disastrous.

Stages - Ban battlefield. I'd strike Lylat just because of the uneven floor. Final Destination is your friend because it is large and therefore less likely you'll have to be pressured to the ledge. Castle Siege if you can manage the chaingrab, but beware of chaingrabbing on part 1 and 3 where it's not perfectly flat. Halberd if you want to abuse a low ceiling. Be careful of walls, you can use them for a free stock, but so can he.

DDD does have the advantage because if you both play it right, DDD lives to higher percent while marth can be gimped. You're forced to play it smart, and patiently, being either overly aggressive or defensive at the wrong times can be punished. And you really have to be careful of stages. There's too little room for mistakes. Because of all that... I go 55/45 DDD's favor... not higher...

hope it helps the discussion. anyone please chime in if you disagree with anything here (except for whether or not you can Chaingrab marth. that one's set in stone.)

 

[hizzlum]

What ever the verdict of ths match-up is(know after learning some stuff from cuba, who just told me yesterday that SCG CG marth is realistic in tourneys) it slightly learn to DDD, but regardless, the match-up is close, and if you main DDD, I would stick with him regardless of what this thread's verdict is beacuse DDD wil kill at those low % that marth needs to pressure you more so he can in turn kill DDD, as both their form of % rack up are great, DDD SCG CG is more reliable than shield pressure that could be punished easier.
and to mikey 7 as he stated "I would never tell the community something that didn't actually happen or that I did not think to be 100% true. I base all my posts off experience."
I go to norcal weekly frindlies and play TOA members, I believe I have expierience with the actual smash metagame, iono bout you but I played the best sonic in norcal and maybe cali(nor4u) and he sympathize when he swicthed to marth that it would not be easy for my DDD to SCG CG him. Cuba told me yesterday(mark my words) that the SCG CG grab is realistic in tourney play, so I have to agree with a smasher who has found countless infiites DDD has on a variety of characters that are not DK,samus,mario,luigi,bowser, or DDD and also has shown me CPing and approaching based on match-ups.

"What kind of idiot gets up B edgespiked by marth...thats enough said right there"
Aero, second best DDD in socal, one of the best in the US, does by mikehaze and almost loses a match(he would have if he didnt tech) in this vid at 3:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCSmSLtQWb0.
I guess Aero is an idiot, or maybe its that he's from socal(jk) but it proves that even top brawl pros(sort of an oxymoron) can be stagespiked by marth.

And marth's CG does lead to a tipper dair off the stage, the little % of each throw is not the best % throw ever, but it help add a little more damage before a meteor smash. So by no means is his grab game abysmal, but it does not stand up too the best grab game in the game(DDD's).

and to go off what bschung is saying about marth CP 's as DDD, PS1 is chosen by many smashers for the 2/5 of all stagesthat have walls for a dthrow infite with the wall that gets more than 100% damage rackup until the stages transforms, and a quick bair, utilt, or dtilt for an easy kill. yet at the same time marth can infinite with his dtilt, but at higher % lkke 70% a walltech and then jump will get you out of that mess. Corneria,halberd, and green greens if you want lows ceilings for easier utilt kills.
WIth the help of cuba is death, I might make a DDD counterpicking stages guide on these boards with his knowledge of infites DDD posseses that most of the smash community does not knwo about. 45-55 DDD.

 

[mikeHAZE]

What ever the verdict of ths match-up is(know after learning some stuff from cuba, who just told me yesterday that SCG CG marth is realistic in tourneys) it slightly learn to DDD, but regardless, the match-up is close, and if you main DDD, I would stick with him regardless of what this thread's verdict is beacuse DDD wil kill at those low % that marth needs to pressure you more so he can in turn kill DDD, as both their form of % rack up are great, DDD SCG CG is more reliable than shield pressure that could be punished easier.
and to mikey 7 as he stated "I would never tell the community something that didn't actually happen or that I did not think to be 100% true. I base all my posts off experience."
I go to norcal weekly frindlies and play TOA members, I believe I have expierience with the actual smash metagame, iono bout you but I played the best sonic in norcal and maybe cali(nor4u) and he sympathize when he swicthed to marth that it would not be easy for my DDD to SCG CG him. Cuba told me yesterday(mark my words) that the SCG CG grab is realistic in tourney play, so I have to agree with a smasher who has found countless infiites DDD has on a variety of characters that are not DK,samus,mario,luigi,bowser, or DDD and also has shown me CPing and approaching based on match-ups.

"What kind of idiot gets up B edgespiked by marth...thats enough said right there"
Aero, second best DDD in socal, one of the best in the US, does by mikehaze and almost loses a match(he would have if he didnt tech) in this vid at 3:08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCSmSLtQWb0.
I guess Aero is an idiot, or maybe its that he's from socal(jk) but it proves that even top brawl pros(sort of an oxymoron) can be stagespiked by marth.

And marth's CG does lead to a tipper dair off the stage, the little % of each throw is not the best % throw ever, but it help add a little more damage before a meteor smash. So by no means is his grab game abysmal, but it does not stand up too the best grab game in the game(DDD's).

and to go off what bschung is saying about marth CP 's as DDD, PS1 is chosen by many smashers for the 2/5 of all stagesthat have walls for a dthrow infite with the wall that gets more than 100% damage rackup until the stages transforms, and a quick bair, utilt, or dtilt for an easy kill. yet at the same time marth can infinite with his dtilt, but at higher % lkke 70% a walltech and then jump will get you out of that mess. Corneria,halberd, and green greens if you want lows ceilings for easier utilt kills.
WIth the help of cuba is death, I might make a DDD counterpicking stages guide on these boards with his knowledge of infites DDD posseses that most of the smash community does not knwo about. 45-55 DDD.

actually, i beat aero pretty solid last month, he hasn't been to a tournament since.

that video you posted is from july, before anybody knew how to cg marth

 

[Gishnak]

CGing marth 100% of the time is totally feasible. I get it at least 4/5 times. And if you predict the marth will Ub+B to get out of it, and there are no platforms above him, you get a free forward smash. O.o

 

[hizzlum]

actually, i beat aero pretty solid last month, he hasn't been to a tournament since.

that video you posted is from july, before anybody knew how to cg marth

Does that mean he is quitting?

And also I would like to see ur vid of you beating aero, cuz it would help this thread a ton, as both of you are top notch pros that are ranked in socal and in the west coast.

And it would be nice if I could see 2 high level players(DDD and a marth) doing the SCG CG with DDD on marth, so there is evidence of the SCG CG DDD can be peformed on marth.
I thought it was not pssible to do cuz cuba is death and I were talking about 2 weeks ago and he said that it was not worth it, but when I talked to him this week he said it was realistic.

Also I brought up the video beacuse one poster said idiots get stage spiked by marth, so I had to prove him wrong on that assumption.

And lastly do you aggree that this match-up is 45-55 DDD?

 

[hizzlum]

About the stages counters in the OP, I would refer to my thread Gates, especially for MK cuz I have summarys for bad and good stages on a match up, also I will have info on snake and DDD counterpick stages, by the end of friday night, so you can look at my thread for CP info as I have been talking to Cuba is death constantly about DDD counterpicking stages in tournament play

 

[Gates]

About the stages counters in the OP, I would refer to my thread Gates, especially for MK cuz I have summarys for bad and good stages on a match up, also I will have info on snake and DDD counterpick stages, by the end of friday night, so you can look at my thread for CP info as I have been talking to Cuba is death constantly about DDD counterpicking stages in tournament play

Yeah, I'm going to wait until you have more data before I just refer to your thread directly, like when you have most of top tier done. I'm going to stop asking for stage choices in this thread though and instead let that discussion go in your thread.

It would be cool if we could sync up our topics so that you post the counterpicks for each character around the same time as I post the matchup summary for them, but I doubt that would realistically happen since I'm so lazy about updating this lol.

 

[hizzlum]

Yeah, I'm going to wait until you have more data before I just refer to your thread directly, like when you have most of top tier done. I'm going to stop asking for stage choices in this thread though and instead let that discussion go in your thread.

It would be cool if we could sync up our topics so that you post the counterpicks for each character around the same time as I post the matchup summary for them, but I doubt that would realistically happen since I'm so lazy about updating this lol.

Ill do that, that makes sense and it will easy to find the match-up and the counter picks. for DDD's match-ups.

 

[Gates]

Some words of warning before I begin the next character discussion. This next week is going to be extremely busy for me. I have a project due Monday and an exam Wednesday and a very large majority of my weekend is going to have to be dedicated to those. This means that next weekend I will have to bite the bullet and write 4 (!) matchup summaries. Remember kids, don't procrastinate.

Until then...
OLIMAR DISCUSSION GO!

 

[Fogo]

yay i've got olimar stuff :D

 

[DanGR]

Olimar week eh? My thoughts are usually just rambled and out of order so here goes..

Well first off, DDD has to approach. The pikmin just pressure him too much because DDD doesn't have many options for killing the pikmin that can't be punished by Olimar with a grab/shieldgrab or more pikmin. This poses a big thread for the big guy. He's got to approach pretty quickly and can't stop to kill the pikmin or he'll get punished.

When DDD is approaching, Olimar usually defends with spaced fsmashes, grabs, retreating pivotgrabs, and pikmin throws. It can be difficult to get to Olimar through the pikmin wall. Fsmashes can be attacked with your ftilt. Grabs can be interrupted with ftilt, and pivotgrabs aren't punishable. When he pivotgrabs, just jump in the air and throw a waddle. It'll interrupt the grab if you hit. Your goal is to get Olimar to the edge of the stage so he can't pivotgrab anymore. From there, you can pressure him off the stage.

Off the stage, bair works well for gimping Olimar. He's got a whistle though, so he can take as many hits as you dish out. Just be aware that he's probably looking for the edge. Time the hug and roll off the edge when you think he'll tether. If you don't, and you just sit there, you risk getting spiked off. (if a purple or white is up next in his lineup)

Matchup- 60/40 or 65/35 Olimar.

/2 cents