Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[Matt07]

I'm a human. Humans make mistakes. We will get grabbed.

 

[HeroMystic]

To be honest the infinite doesn't make a lot of difference, very little in fact. It is extremely easy to get out of the infinite until Mario is already in KO range (120% or so). So in actuality the ratio change is very minimal.

The main problem that Mario has against DeDeDe is that he doesn't have alot of options. All he can do is camp and camp alot. He has to work extremely hard to not get grabbed, and matches like these will take a very long time. With that taken into account, a camping Mario will not be approaching. He'll be baiting DeDeDe to approach. An approaching D3 will give Mario alot of counter options.

Mario's Air game > DeDeDe airgame. DeDeDe is extremely combo-able if Mario gets inside.
DeDeDe's ground game >>> Mario's ground game. It's literally no contest here. Any ground game work from Mario here will be used to get DeDeDe in the air.

DeDeDe is not difficult to gimp, but a good DeDeDe won't let it be easy.

This matchup is 70:30 DeDeDe, both with and without infinite. I would go more towards Mario's favor, but I myself haven't fought a great DeDeDe player that I could test my camp game against.

 

[hippiedude92]

I fought a D3 (Leo aka Basic Sausage <3 :] ) in last night's tourney.

Honestly, Mario has the tools in not getting grabbed. We have a grab, fludd, fireballs (ohinoPSing -_-) our aerial/ground speed and spaced aerials but more critically our shield pressure Dair. It's very safe on the block, Dair eats your shield, sure you can angle upwards, but you still can't punish us, and we can just end up behind you after that. Pretty much after your shield is low, we can start going semi-aggressive since Nair shields pokes you.

just to let you know, MOST tourneys BAN the infinite itself (except for FL LMAO) but of course this is a MU but yeah just sayin.

and no bull, I beat most D3s by camping/beating out the timer. That's how I win lololol and lose too? XDDD

 

[Atomsk_92]

Umm I use 3 moves in this match really XD

 

[T3h Albino]

did i just read it was easy to get out of the infinite and that marios airgame > d3's airgame?
wow
i think i just got dumber....bairlolwut

 

[HeroMystic]

It is.

And B-air is outdone by Cape-Jump and FIHL.

 

[hippiedude92]

It is.

And B-air is outdone by Cape-Jump and FIHL.

Shall we lol together about D3's aerial speed and how over 9000 miles to see a falling bair coming? Oh and our OOS options too? K thnx.

 

[Atomsk_92]

ummm... suck stops all your OOS options K thx bai.

 

[CRASHiC]

Who fast falls Bair?
I mean, I did at my first tournament cause I was freaking out, but still.

 

[Gates]

I ff bair if it'll hit a MK in the middle of their tornado.

Other than that, no.

 

[T3h Albino]

looool mario is really easy to gimp ;B

 

[Matador]

We have a few tools here and there to avoid grabs, but this matchup is pretty much D3's with and without the infinite. Like Hero mentioned, mashing out is an option at certain percentages, but never should be relied upon. It's more of a last resort in the event that we ARE grabbed rather than a defense against it. Something rather important and another reason to be frame-perfect. Mario's upB comes out faster than Marth's IIRC, so keep that in mind.

As far as gimping goes, you generally haven't got much to worry about. We have a few methods of taking your jumps but most of them are rendered unsafe offstage because of suck and your high range/priority on both Fair and Bair. If you're forced to upB or do so prematurely, however, Mario's cape CAN reverse your direction and Fludd CAN push you from the ledge if you cancel it too early. Mix up your recovery to prevent this, and generally don't upB unless it's your only option. Be aware of the threat Mario presents offstage, and you should be okay. Fireballs are the only things that Mario can really safely do to edgeguard before you upB.

As far as gimping US, you have the luxury of having an attack that beats our upB; your Bair. THIS would probably be a good time to fastfall that Bair if your timing is right. The trajectory at which it knocks Mario with undoubtedly gimp him if he has no DJ. If Mario times his upB on the invincibility frames, however, it can beat bair and potentially stagespike if the circumstances are right. In the event that this happens, you probably won't die unless you're high %, but you MAY need to use your upB to recover. Do so with caution. Inhale is also hell to deal with offstage for Mario, so keep that in mind.

Onstage, Mario can lay on pretty thick shield pressure with Dair and can't be shieldgrabbed till the last hit and can be autocancelled behind D3's shield or DJ'd out of. Not COMPLETELY safe, but a great tool vs D3 in particular to thwart grabs more often than not. Cape suffers no shield stun and can be used to bait grabs -> Stutterstepped Fsmash. Just be wary of this. D3's weight is a huge adv in this matchup, so don't forfeit it by being too aggressive with shieldgrabs.

My guess is 60:40 D3 to 65:35 without the infinite. 80:20 or more with.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Uuh with infinite well we screw up once and there goes a stock. Sure we can break out at lower percents but at higher percents we're screwed. Just dthrow us to 300 and utilt. A Dedede should NEVER lose this match-up with infinite. I'm not even gonna say its 80-20. How can Mario possibly win with the infinite? It's gotta be 100-0 in your favour.

It's 80:20 because you're not going to be stuck in the infinite the whole time -_-. You respawn after the first death you know...
that's where the 20 comes from.

 

[Inferno3044]

ummm... suck stops all your OOS options K thx bai.

Why would anybody seriously shield if a D3 is using inhale? That's just stupid. chances are you would fireball an inhale and we would use our OOS options as a counterattack to something.

looool mario is really easy to gimp ;B

That is true, but D3 is definitely possible to gimp.


First opinion, with infinite the MU is 70:30 D3 because we can do things to stop getting grabbed and release at lower percents. I think that is reasonable. Also its banned in like every tourney. Also I'm not good at talking from another characters point of view so I will be speaking from a Mario's.


Like all heavy characters, Mario has an advantage of being able to do a lot of damage from combos once he gets in and DDD is no exception. The difference between him and other heavy characters is that he can camp very well, has a lot of range and projectile to try and get us out (his ftilt is amazing), and a good recovery that isnt easy to gimp. Of course, D3 has the chaingrab and the infinite, which gives hims a definite advantage imo along with his heavy weight, and being able to kill at low percents. Chaingrab alone doesnt win the match because the D3 will get highly predictable. Playing aggressive is highly risky, so play defensively until you can get inside. D3's bair is dumb. Although low range for a D3 move, it has extremely high priority, very fast, low lag, and lasts long. It can be hit out i Just dont attack his feet if you plan to hit him out of it. Its risky to try and counter that anyways. As for his grab, I know most people when going against D3 will say "avoid being grabbed," but its not easy. His grab range makes you go WTF. His normal grab range outranges your jab and the distance he gets from rolling to attempt a grab is about as big as D3's body, and he is one fat penguin. So chances are Mario will get grabbed every now and then. Mario does have things to stop it from happening so often. Some options are fireballs, FLUDD, or just make sure you space extremely well. If you can land behind him and auto cancel an aerial that could work. Of course he can kill you at much lower percents and it takes us a while. Most of D3's kill moves you can see coming. Watch out for his Utilt. Its his best kill move and very quick. The only kill moves Mario will have against D3 is Fsmash and Dsmash (which might be stale because it is used to get people off) because Usmash will not kill D3. Basically, D3 should either force an approach by outcamping or put a lot of pressure on the opponent. As a Mario, ease some of the pressure and be unpredictable and it shouldn't be too bad. I think its 60:40 D3 w/o infinite. I guess according to your boards, Mario is easy since 60:40 is considered easy, but a good Mario will not have it be so easy.


Also I know this has no significance to the D3 vs. Mario MU, but Luigi can't get normal chaingrabbed. He is only able to be caught in the infinite. He will slide too far to be the victim of a normal chaingrab.

 

[:mad:]

Dedede really can't be as easily gimped as we would like, as soon as he gets caped, he can still switch to his immobile animation and drift back. You'll have to FF to get to the ledge fast enough, but during the course of your Dededeing, you will get gimped once. At least once per set. Mario'll get gimped 2, maybe 3 times per set, so long as you play your Bears right.

The best we can hope for is player error and SJP. (during your grabbing.)

I'd say 65:35 without the infinite. All he needs to do is outrange and outspace us, which really isn't that hard with a wall like Dedede. **** you guys for maining D3. But you're still cool regardless. Iunno about all of you. Just Gates because he made April 1st amazing.

 

[Gates]

Also I know this has no significance to the D3 vs. Mario MU, but Luigi can't get normal chaingrabbed. He is only able to be caught in the infinite. He will slide too far to be the victim of a normal chaingrab.

Yes he can, see earlier in the thread.

 

[Matador]

Yes he can, see earlier in the thread.

This is true. It must be frame perfect, which isn't even really difficult. Definitely within the threshold of "humanly possible".

 

[HeroMystic]

The chaingrab is worse than the infinite really. Too many Marios seem to be pissed scared of it when it's not much of a threat compared to the rest of DeDeDe's arsenal.

 

[Jupz]

^^ How is the Chaingrab worse then the infinite? Lol.

 

[Tero.]

^^ How is the Chaingrab worse then the infinite? Lol.

If people try to infinite at too low % they can get out, but that's only if the DDD is bad

 

[Jupz]

Yeah, but you could CG them to the edge and then they would be on enough damage

 

[Matt07]

It's 80:20 because you're not going to be stuck in the infinite the whole time -_-. You respawn after the first death you know...
that's where the 20 comes from.

Umm okay. Just shield grab us again when we screw up.

Anyways infinite is banned mostly everywhere now (I think?) soo meh.

For match-up ratio I'll have to say...65:35 For Dedede

 

[Tero.]

Yeah, but you could CG them to the edge and then they would be on enough damage

Yeah.
Infinite 5 times, CG to the Edge, Backthrow, Utilt.

AWWWWW YEEEEAAAAAH

Or just gimp them.

I really want to write more about this MU but I don't have enough time at the moment.

 

[:mad:]

This is one of the easier matchups for Dedede. Not much to say since it's all grab, bair, utilt.

GG.

 

[Matador]

We're done right? This matchup is painful to discuss. I'm slowly dying on the inside.

 

[Gates]

This is true. It must be frame perfect, which isn't even really difficult. Definitely within the threshold of "humanly possible".

Meh, I've seen CO18 do it.

We're done right? This matchup is painful to discuss. I'm slowly dying on the inside.

Nobody's keeping you here.

 

[Matador]

Nobody's keeping you here.

Fair enough.

 

[gallax]

i would like some opinions for the DDD''s themselves. what is the matchup ratio for DDD vs pika in your opinion?

 

[Commander_Beef]

i would like some opinions for the DDD''s themselves. what is the matchup ratio for DDD vs pika in your opinion?

Wow really? 60:40 Pikachu -_-...

 

[Gates]

i would like some opinions for the DDD''s themselves. what is the matchup ratio for DDD vs pika in your opinion?

Check the OP.

 

[Inferno3044]

This is one of the easier matchups for Dedede. Not much to say since it's all grab, bair, utilt.

GG.

I didn't think it was that easy for D3. Easy yes, but not as easy as you say. If Mario camps like his life depends on it at the very edge so that he cant get behind, then Dedede will have to approach you and can stop CGs. He can do 1 Fthrow instead of like 5 Dthrows and an Fthrow. OOS options are actually good despite what Atomsk says. Our UpB beats inhale. It's still an easy MU dont get me wrong, but I dont think we really get ***** that badly. I say 60:40 but I have different opinions.

 

[Jupz]

Is that with infinite or without? Cause with infinite its way worse then that imo.

 

[Inferno3044]

Without the infinite. With the infinite, its 70:30 Dedede. We have tools so you dont grab as much and thats why I don't think its 80:20. If it wasnt for the fact that he has a CG, I think it would be close to even. I know its irrelevant because he has it and its legal, but I just want to say it.

 

[Jupz]

Also remember we can gimp you really easily... Imo 65:35 without Infinite. But thanks for the input

 

[Inferno3044]

Also remember we can gimp you really easily... Imo 65:35 without Infinite. But thanks for the input

Other characters can gimp better, and Mario isn't too hard to gimp. I do know what you are talking about because Dedede's bair is very good for gimping, but its one of the problems we get past and learn to stop. It's like our range problem. Our range sucks, but we find ways to get past it and still win. I can see why you say 65:35, but I don't think that you beat us that badly (no offense) Also you're welcome .

 

[Jupz]

Ahh ok, well its true I haven't played against any real mario mains though I've played against my friends mario.

 

[bobson]

The infinite should not be too big of a concern, as per this thread. We can break out while you're pummeling to keep the infinite going.

The problem with the matchup is the fact that YOU CAN ****ING SHIELDGRAB ANYTHING, **** YOU ALL IN THE ***

 

[Gates]

Again, we love you too Bobson.

 

[CRASHiC]

You guys should use the Wii mote. Its better as this sort of thing.

 

[Commander_Beef]

The infinite should not be too big of a concern, as per this thread. We can break out while you're pummeling to keep the infinite going.

The problem with the matchup is the fact that YOU CAN ****ING SHIELDGRAB ANYTHING, **** YOU ALL IN THE ***

Not Peach's SideB...
You're a ****in beast Bobson we love you!