Elo Ratings in Competitive Melee

[DippnDots]

It's back on topic, let's not forget that.

If this is going to be a national sort of rating, how far down the grapevine should wins be accepted? Before we can fully implement the player A of rating B beat player C of rating D at any 'smashboards sponsored' tournament we'll need to base the initial ratings off of national scale tournaments, otherwise i fear different regions with different densities of both skill and players will throw off the ratings somewhat.

 

[PEEF!]

LOL at Peef discussing the ELO rating system in the State of the Game stream when nobody else knew what it was. Hella biased explanation he gave...

SotG Episode 1:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/14507011
We begin discussing the ELO system at about 50:30. I can hardly imagine a less biased explanation of the system TBH, I tried to explain the system very clearly before inserting my opinion, and I think I did it justice. MacD didn't really know much about it, but Kage has been keeping up carefully with the thread and obv so have I. We brought up old problems and good things along with Prog bringing up some new problems that led me to the problems of differing rulesets and map pools that really haven't been discussed here.

Not to mention SotG is an opinion show. Every member tries not to be overbearing but in the end, we all have nothing to provide but our opinions. We won't be discussing ELO again until there is real movement with it. Until then as MacD said, we should probably just leave it to be in Melee Discussion.

I agree with Kage:

Uhh I disagree, i knew about this since the beginning maybe not the others but he definitely explained what it was pretty well anyway inside the melee state of the game. It's not really an alien concept or anything, it's very simple. We were trying to talk about more as to how it would influence the scene.

 

[Bones0]

I didn't see any big problems with the way Peef introduced the subject of Elo ratings. I felt like the biggest problem was the tendency to lump Elo ratings in with amateur brackets. I remember it seeming like everyone was pretty fine with Elo until it was connected with amateur brackets (at which point MacD went off to explain why amateur brackets shouldn't be a consistent thing). To be fair however, the idea of using Elo ratings without amateur brackets has been an opinion of the minority throughout this thread (especially since it is largely connected to Zivilyn Bane's other thread about improving attendance, which I found little I could get behind).

As I've said a few times in this thread, I think amateur brackets will never be successful. No matter how you divvy up the entry fees and prizes among different levels, it will just become a game of sandbagging just hard enough so that you win the prize below your level. I believe the value of an Elo ratings system can be found in other areas, such as motivation for new players to improve. Especially since they often go months getting 2-0'd, and when they finally get a victory under there belt, there is little or no recognition for that victory. An Elo rating would award them with a higher rating, which they can look at as feedback. Human psychology is largely based around feedback. If you want to change someone's behavior, they need feedback in some form to know what is good/bad. An Elo rating that rises when someone puts in effort is a great form of positive feedback for both new players, as well as more advanced players who feel like they've plateaued and might feel under appreciated for how well they do because they've been there for so long.

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

Just for future reference or just so people know (in case you didn't know), Elo is not an acronym, thus does not need to be all caps. It's not pronounced "Eee, el, oh" but simply Elo. It's named after the inventor who's last name was Elo. You can google his first name if you want to know for whatever reason.

 

[Signia]

SotG Episode 1:

Not to mention SotG is an opinion show. Every member tries not to be overbearing but in the end, we all have nothing to provide but our opinions. We won't be discussing ELO again until there is real movement with it. Until then as MacD said, we should probably just leave it to be in Melee Discussion.

You're right I failed to realize that, and overreacted when I realized the biggest naysayer of Elo rating system was heading up the discussion.

I really want to see this implemented in... every competitive community really. But I shouldn't lose it when influential players on the show collectively disagree I was just mad

I agree on the point about amateur brackets, they're a dumb idea for small communities for reasons already discussed. The benefit I'd enjoy the most is getting a measure of your own skill for personal improvement other than tournament matches and placing. It would also encourage competition and rivalry between players by allowing them to compete against each with rating which shows the level of skill of players they can beat. It would settle who is "really" better or who has progressed further in skill level compared with everyone else, rather than doing that by just seeing who beats who. I'm sure some of you have experienced the feeling of losing to someone who for some reason just does well against you and doesn't beat as many people as you do. It sounds like johning ammo, but it'd nice to have tangible thing to look at when considering how well people do against everyone.

Which reminds me of Prog's (I think) silly point where he said it wouldn't be accurate because of variables like being too tired or something... but if that were the case then tournament results wouldn't be an accurate measure of skill. Controlling those variables is part of the game.

 

[AlphaZealot]

This whole thing is really simple. If there is a person with the time and dedication to do the work, then just start doing the work. Apparently there is already beta software here so really what is there to lose? After a decent amount of tournaments are compiled I'll sticky the topic.

 

[Nintendude]

AZ, there is some behind the scenes stuff going on with the idea that has just been taking awhile to get organized. You will find out soon enough what we are doing.

 

[.selebu]

behind the scenes stuff...
tell us^^

 

[Cactuar]

I really want to see this implemented in... every competitive community really. But I shouldn't lose it when influential players on the show collectively disagree I was just mad

Everyone on the show other than PEEF had minimal interaction with the topic of the ELO system and really had no legitimate opinion on the topic. PEEF's response to MacD when this was pointed out of "BUT I JUST EXPLAINED IT TO YOU" was fail. I understand it is an opinion based show, but when only one of the handful of people on the show actually have an opinion on the topic, it becomes an opinion pushing show. Which is bad. Bad bad.

 

[PEEF!]

Everyone on the show other than PEEF had minimal interaction with the topic of the ELO system and really had no legitimate opinion on the topic. PEEF's response to MacD when this was pointed out of "BUT I JUST EXPLAINED IT TO YOU" was fail. I understand it is an opinion based show, but when only one of the handful of people on the show actually have an opinion on the topic, it becomes an opinion pushing show. Which is bad. Bad bad.

Kage has been involved with this thread since page 1. I had mentioned it to MacD but apparently he hadn't read up on it. Tonight I'm going to send everyone a list of topics that we will cover so everyone can look it up if they don't know what it is.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage has been involved with this thread since page 1. I had mentioned it to MacD but apparently he hadn't read up on it. Tonight I'm going to send everyone a list of topics that we will cover so everyone can look it up if they don't know what it is.

Awesome I was getting a bit worried lol.

 

[Cactuar]

Sorry, I can't see Kage's posts. They shine too brightly with the spirit of the warrior.


Also, I feel your opinion on the ELO system focuses too heavily on the monetary reward and the potential downward shift of amateurs getting to play pros in a competitive setting. With an ELO system, the draw of tournaments gets shifted because it is a venue for people to improve their personal scores, regardless of money made and lost. The purpose of the amateur bracket is to provide somewhat equal footing for competition that will result in an increase or decrease in ELO. While it is great for amateurs to play pros in tournament for the experience of it, going to a tournament and playing those same people repeatedly does get old, so you need a new factor to generate buzz and draw players out consistently.

Tournaments with ELO relevance are an opportunity play against someone with more on the line than just a placing and a few dollars. You take something away from the tournament that is quantifiable beyond winning or losing some money and the gain in experience. It is a defined long term tracking mechanism that encourages players of all skill levels to keep going to tournaments. Why wouldn't we at least try to implement it provided that it isn't much additional work on what we already have, and our goal is to promote community awareness and activity?

Prog's point isn't valid to me because averages matter more than individual days where a player is off. Everyone has an off day. When they start having a lot of off days, it just means their average level of play is lower, regardless of what they can do when they are playing "well". I generally judge players based on average, not peak play.

Note: This post is based on the show. I haven't read the thread.

 

[MTKO]

I don't think the amateur bracket is a totally horrible idea. I think it could causes things to go downhill really fast if implemented in the wrong way though. I would say have an open bracket that everyone can enter and an amateur bracket for people with lower scores would probably work out fine. And The brackets can be played at separate times for people who are entered into both, or however the TO would like to organize the timing of things.

It seemed like what was said on the show was creating thinking that all pros will be in one bracket and all amateurs will be in another and unless you get to pro level, then you can never play the higher level players in a tournament match. That would not be good and I don't think anyone would host a tournament like that.

 

[PEEF!]

Prog's point isn't valid to me because averages matter more than individual days where a player is off. Everyone has an off day. When they start having a lot of off days, it just means their average level of play is lower, regardless of what they can do when they are playing "well". I generally judge players based on average, not peak play.

The important thing about Progs point is that it led us to the much more serious (devastating) problem of non-unified rulesets in Melee. ELO systems CANNOT succeed with different map pools and different rules on wobbling. The system loses its analogy with chess there as well. Midwest rulesets are very different from WC rulesets, and a chess ELO system cannot work if there were different chess rulesets for each region.

 

[Divinokage]

Sorry, I can't see Kage's posts. They shine too brightly with the spirit of the warrior.


Also, I feel your opinion on the ELO system focuses too heavily on the monetary reward and the potential downward shift of amateurs getting to play pros in a competitive setting. With an ELO system, the draw of tournaments gets shifted because it is a venue for people to improve their personal scores, regardless of money made and lost. The purpose of the amateur bracket is to provide somewhat equal footing for competition that will result in an increase or decrease in ELO. While it is great for amateurs to play pros in tournament for the experience of it, going to a tournament and playing those same people repeatedly does get old, so you need a new factor to generate buzz and draw players out consistently.

Tournaments with ELO relevance are an opportunity play against someone with more on the line than just a placing and a few dollars. You take something away from the tournament that is quantifiable beyond winning or losing some money and the gain in experience. It is a defined long term tracking mechanism that encourages players of all skill levels to keep going to tournaments. Why wouldn't we at least try to implement it provided that it isn't much additional work on what we already have, and our goal is to promote community awareness and activity?

Prog's point isn't valid to me because averages matter more than individual days where a player is off. Everyone has an off day. When they start having a lot of off days, it just means their average level of play is lower, regardless of what they can do when they are playing "well". I generally judge players based on average, not peak play.

Note: This post is based on the show. I haven't read the thread.

Well they are still perfectly valid points, =)

 

[Cactuar]

Agreed on the ruleset issue. YOU WILL ALL BOW DOWN BEFORE THE ALMIGHTY CACTUS RULESET. And then play Melee happily ever after.

 

[AlphaZealot]

This thread needs to stop talking about amateur brackets. Just get the database working first. Even if amateur brackets were great, you would have to convince TO's on an individual basis to use one at their tournament. It is really a waste of breath and time and is confusing people and taking away from what ELO is (which really has nothing to do with amateur brackets).

 

[GOD!]

elo cant work with smash cause not enough consistent competition between players

sorz

 

[AlphaZealot]

Umm...I think even Melee would have enough competition. With Brawl there are 500+ tournaments and 5,000 unique players.

 

[GOD!]

even then its too grassroots

not enough interplay for elo to be meaningful in any national way

would only create regional arguments and a lot of theory bs about someone beat someone else who also beat someone else

 

[MTKO]

even then its too grassroots

not enough interplay for elo to be meaningful in any national way

would only create regional arguments and a lot of theory bs about someone beat someone else who also beat someone else

Have you seen the genesis thread?

And that already happens... :D

 

[AlphaZealot]

Not really, you are misinterpriting the idea of Elo. It was a discussion earlier in this thread that the use of the word should be "rating" not "ranking", even though I have been misusing it all the time. Shrug. It is an accurate gauge of your skill level but it isn't a finite gauge, as in if, say I'm rated 2181 and you are 2145, while technically I'm rated higher than you, the reality is we are simply of comparable skill level. Anyone who would use a two players of relatively close rating as a definitive judge of who is better (unless they played I suppose) would be incorrect. However, if through the system I've been rated 2,100 and you are 1,600, it is pretty definitive that I'm better than you.

Regardless, there are enough nationals that occur with the top players attending that the results from those alone would be significant. As per your last point, that occurs in any format of rating and even in national standings in professional leagues like the NFL (where teams don't play every other team during a season).

 

[Orko]

So what are the steps for creating the database?
How do we go about making this tangible?

 

[AlphaZealot]

It would be really simple.
1. There is probably not going to be a "we". It is going to be whoever takes the effort to actual do something. Rajam's list, Ankoku's rankings, etc. When you add in people you get the freeloader effect and people not following the same formula/some people being lazy.
2. Basically just start collecting tournaments and using the beta software to create the rankings, and give everyone the same starting value whenever you come across a new player. Use the same formula/s for every tournament you do.

It is really simple, I always wonder why people try to make things more complicated than they need to be.

 

[GOD!]

bro i already play lol and we use an elo system

u dont understand

that elo cant work with smash. CAUSE THERE ISNT INTERPLAY

and how much do locals affect elo, and if people get better there arent enough tournaments

all u are setting up for is a lot of *****ing

 

[MTKO]

bro i already play lol and we use an elo system

u dont understand

that elo cant work with smash. CAUSE THERE ISNT INTERPLAY

and how much do locals affect elo, and if people get better there arent enough tournaments

all u are setting up for is a lot of *****ing

Why not just try it and if it seems to be too off, stop using it?

 

[GOD!]

waste of time effort and makes people frustrated that something failed

it will also cause division (regional) and hurt real rivalries

and it will also take away legitimate trash talk about who's better.

if people say x person is better than y person then elo comes (even if it leaves), there will always be the factor of higher rating taht takes away from real uncertainty

also it puts doubt into a players mind if they are lower rated

theres something awesome about an unknown coming out of nowhere in his community and ****** tournaments

someone who's rating slowly gets higher is just.. not exciting? smash is hype, elo is anti hype

plus that's irrelevant cause elo cant work for smash, but u understand what i mean

 

[Atlus8]

So I spent the last several hours getting tournament results (here in SoCal) and plugging them in manually into Cobalt's EloCalc thang! I immediately started inputting everything I can find and I didn't read this!

Oh, and for anyone putting in results manually, for accurate bracket ratings, put in the entire winner's bracket first, in order. Then the entire loser's bracket, in order. Followed by the first set of grand finals, then the second set of grand finals. This is the order in which matches for all players are played, and since ratings change after each match, the matches should be ordered correctly to ensure accurate results.

Instead of doing the above, I did ALL of the winners bracket first (including Grand Finals) then I did all of losers! However, I don't think it did hurt the results too badly! I plugged in tournament results that had the bracket posted up, but I didn't plug in results from pools! (If you live in SoCal, you know that pools don't count!) Also, I used a base rating of 1400!

I used the following tournaments to plug into the EloCalc!

Tournaments!
Festizzio January, 2011
Festizzio February, 2011
Winter Game Fest 2011
MikeHaze Bi-Weekly 1
MikeHaze Bi-Weekly 2
Smashlomania 818
2GG 1.4
GREV 12
GREV 13

Ratings!
Lovage - 1656
Mango - 1634
S2J - 1625
MacD - 1609
Dr.PP - 1546
Fly Amanita - 1542
Lucky - 1538
Westballz - 1514
24 - 1502
Stab - 1482
EddyMexico - 1472
J666 - 1465
Zhu - 1455
HugS - 1452
hdbrian - 1452
DEHF - 1447
Atlus - 1433
Replicate - 1433
Shroomed - 1433
M2K - 1429
Maple - 1423
Kira - 1422
Alex19 - 1420
JTB - 1420
TipZ - 1419
PBS - 1419
Gishnak - 1419
Hyprid - 1414
Sung - 1411
Okami - 1409
Squid - 1409
Scar - 1408
Dunskies - 1404
sidefx - 1402
Baka4moe - 1400
Sheridan - 1397
Peligro - 1395
thunderbolt buddha - 1394
Sunny - 1388
hdSergio - 1384
Shadow - 1381
Jason - 1380
MogX - 1379
Alan - 1378
Calle W - 1378
Emerican - 1377
rus s0uL - 1377
Bacon - 1373
Big **** Master - 1370
Combofest - 1366
Bizzaro Flame - 1365
Connor - 1364
Dendy Pretendy - 1363
Wha - 1360
Ekoli - 1360
Fist - 1359
Truman - 1357
Jun - 1356
Ross - 1356
Renzio - 1355
Anto - 1355
mikeHAZE - 1354
sxtlhquiden - 1354
Joe Zhang - 1353
Kat William - 1353
Metame - 1353
Baem - 1352
SK - 1352
Jesse - 1352
Kevin M - 1352
Signia - 1352
e40 - 1352
Unknownpresence - 1351
Doppleganger - 1351
HDU88 - 1351
Antopark - 1350
Craiger - 1349
Lanstar - 1349
Embracethe12 - 1349
W.A.S.T.E - 1349
Spark - 1347
Bimbo - 1342
Rickety - 1339
G&T - 1333
Tyrant - 1330
shaseimaster - 1328
F1SHY - 1311
Dan - 1309
HugQ - 1302

As far as I can tell, this thing is heading in the right direction!

I wish more tios posted the bracket up!

 

[GOD!]

so someone wrote a program that assigns a number to tournament placings

this isnt even elo lol

elo should be affected also by individual matchups and elo goes up more by unseating higher rated players BUT IT DOESNT WORK FOR SMASH cause no one records with that accuracy and u have a bunch of regional numbers that only reflect tournament placing. it's like a fancy way to do the same things people have been trying to do forever

okok waste your time with this meaningless sytem lolll

 

[Zankoku]

I'm pretty sure the program runs numbers by individual bracket matches, just as ELO should, but it's good to know you didn't even go to the trouble of looking at the screenshot by the download link.

 

[GOD!]

whats the point

u know the amount of bookeeping that will require

and u have people that play with each other like every week for 3 years and then play in tournament

and the winner is whoever is doing better that day, even though one person might be actually "better" in every way

its good to know that u dropped in to make a little ******** comment and actually contribute **** to the actual idea LOL real dumb

whole point is doesnt work for smash anyway

 

[Zivilyn Bane]

This thread needs to stop talking about amateur brackets. Just get the database working first. Even if amateur brackets were great, you would have to convince TO's on an individual basis to use one at their tournament. It is really a waste of breath and time and is confusing people and taking away from what ELO is (which really has nothing to do with amateur brackets).

I wanted to quote this first and say this is exactly right and the reason why I moved the amateur bracket topic to a different thread altogether. It's in the same section as this topic so if you want to discuss amateur brackets you can go there.

God!, if you think somebody having a low rating is going to discourage them, you're very wrong. After my first chess tournament my provisional rating was 750. This was when I was in 7th grade. It is pretty much an average rating for that age group. When I first found out what my initial rating was I was more determined than ever to study and get better. By the time I finished 8th grade I had nearly doubled my rating and was around 1450.

Just an FYI to people unsure of certain statistics of ratings, the major number difference is 400. Basically, if my elo rating is 400 points higher than an opponent, I should statistically win 100% of the games. Of course in the real world players learn and overcome differences in skill, which is why elo is so good at tracking rapidly improving players. If I'm 400 points higher than you and you beat me, you'll gain quite a few points and I'll drop some too.

We all need to come to an agreement on what numbers to use as starting points, because I can go ahead and upload some ratings of tournaments I've been to so far this year also.

Once we get to a point where nearly everybody is rated, it might be a smart idea to implement the "performance" rating formula for new players. This is calculated like this:
Performance rating = [(Total of opponents' ratings + 400 * (Wins - Losses)) / Games]

It's a much better way to start off a new player than simply starting everybody at the same number, but doesn't work unless the majority (75% or more) of players in an event are already rated.

Or we could set a stipulation saying "If 75% or more of the players in a particular event are rated, use performance rating formula to establish initial ratings of new players." This is a great tool in the event that a really really good player is just starting, they don't have to start at a low rating and thus create imbalance by beating players higher than the initial rating point. Follow?

 

[Zankoku]

Did you walk into a wall today, or are you always this bitter about everything? I point out the fact that you didn't even look at the program before completely denouncing everything about it, and you go ahead and say a bunch of things about how ELO would never work because, what? People play a lot, making lots of bookkeeping necessary? That's what the program is for. One person might not do so well one day? You don't stand to lose a ton of points for going 0-2 in one tournament, and I'm pretty sure ELO rewards for consistency anyway.

As for talking of contributions... lol.

 

[GOD!]

proof that *******es on the internet cant read posts, only skim

no point in arguing. all u want to do is argue, or else u would have actually read what i said and cared about it, not tried to start some dumb argument LOLLLLLLL

rating might give motivation but still generate less hype.. idk just an idea.

still point no one can piece together the system

if u think that having a joint tournament 2 or 3 times a year then having all the regions go at it and play each other means anything then LOL ok so say there is a cali tournament, and all west coast goes but say only 2 from florida go. rating system will be totally destroyed as enitre florida is unrated, and plays the only two "rated" people. this is when rating begins (at a national, say)

or u could have each region have its own elo, and then whomever wins more in their region gets higher rating and seeding.. which is bull****, and even then beating peoplke in your region (or losing) shouldn't determine national rating. or let it, who cares. If my 8 man house tournament with marthpwnzer12342546758234 raises my rating OK THEN WOW I DONT SEE ANY POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE OR ANYTHING

doesnt work for smash because rating is meaningless unless u get rating off of playing other rated people frequently

who cares dumbfuk ankoku just wants to ignore my posts and ***** so go ahead and *****, i hate arguing with dumb people so i wont do it anymore lollll. honestly if u think elo will work, there's probably nothing that can convince u otherwise anyway... ZZ

 

[Bones0]

It seems like this has gotten to the point where it doesn't matter what is said. Even if you have 90% of the community opposed to this idea, it's only going to take a handful of people to get the system up and running. I know there was that one a while ago, but I believe it had bugs and could only currently accept individual entries.

Someone is just going to have to man up and make a damn program that accepts TIO files and ranks players. From there, using the system itself should be ****ing brain dead simple. It will just be a matter of getting TOs to consistently save their TIO files.


@GOD!

It was pretty much unanimously agreed upon a while ago that only decent-sized tournaments would be accepted for rating changes. Obviously small house tournaments would be easily abused, which is why they simply won't be counted.

 

[GOD!]

how can u define decent sized

and still doesnt matter

go to some random animecon and get a brawl tournament with 50 people, 45 of them complete *******
size wont shouldnt matter.. also when u have some tournaments that are absolutely stacked... i mean.. u cant just say "ill take tournaments with these boundaries" and make elo work, cause there are problems with the criteria for viable tournaments plus the whole thing that the community doesnt even play each other more than maybe 3 times a year.....

 

[Zankoku]

proof that *******es on the internet cant read posts, only skim

no point in arguing. all u want to do is argue, or else u would have actually read what i said and cared about it, not tried to start some dumb argument LOLLLLLLL

...Are you Mango?

rating might give motivation but still generate less hype.. idk just an idea.

still point no one can piece together the system

What do you mean by that? The ELO formula itself is freely available. The only "less hype" we'd get is likely the same as what's currently resulting from that one rankings system in the tournament results that only measures in placements. I'd imagine people who don't care can continue not caring and it won't make a difference.

if u think that having a joint tournament 2 or 3 times a year then having all the regions go at it and play each other means anything then LOL ok so say there is a cali tournament, and all west coast goes but say only 2 from florida go. rating system will be totally destroyed as enitre florida is unrated, and plays the only two "rated" people. this is when rating begins (at a national, say)

or u could have each region have its own elo, and then whomever wins more in their region gets higher rating and seeding.. which is bull****, and even then beating peoplke in your region (or losing) shouldn't determine national rating. or let it, who cares. If my 8 man house tournament with marthpwnzer12342546758234 raises my rating OK THEN WOW I DONT SEE ANY POTENTIAL FOR ABUSE OR ANYTHING

No system is perfect. I'm pretty sure I outlined the trouble of localized ratings like a week back. What solutions may or may not pop up is yet to be seen.

doesnt work for smash because rating is meaningless unless u get rating off of playing other rated people frequently

Okay, why is it meaningless? For the purposes of even local seeding, an ELO ratings system would be beneficial.

who cares dumbfuk ankoku just wants to ignore my posts and ***** so go ahead and *****, i hate arguing with dumb people so i wont do it anymore lollll. honestly if u think elo will work, there's probably nothing that can convince u otherwise anyway... ZZ

You're the one who just disregards the entirety of my post and starts over with a completely new argument every time.

 

[GOD!]

im not paying attention to what u say cause u arent even replying to any of my argument lol

see no point arguing

i outlined reasons and u just posted **** soooooo no reason to reply to ur post at all tbh

no system is perfect and some are just really really bad. elo cant work for smash, see previous 20 posts for my complete reasoning and responses.

dont need elo system for local seeding. people know whos at what skill level, and of there are disagreements then just mm or pride match. elo over complicates everything and gives more rating to people who play more often. say x goes on vacation and starts a new job and misses 4 tournaments, then comes back and gets **** seeding regardless of skill. then u have different regions with subscenes who host tournaments.. say there are 3 scenes in a state: what tournaments should count toward overall "state" elo when all scenes get together maybe monthly or triweekly? what if one scene has weekly tournaments and one has biweeklies, and another is completely unreliable as to when tournaments are..

you have too many variables that are VERY VERY OBJECTIVE, will undoubtedly cause disagreements and will reward some less skilled players just for going to a lot of tournaments, and will hurt other players who cant make it out. it might even UNFAIRLY widen the gap between skilled players and unskilled, as skilled players repeatedly boost their rating by beating slightly less skilled players in their region, making rating really meaningless when u compare between scenes.

even in games with elo, people are more concerned about their rating and how it makes them seem, rather than winning tournaments.
its better if u get notoriety by winning tournaments, and not by getting 9th 2nd 4th 3rd 3rd 5th and getting a good rating



no i am not mango

 

[Zankoku]

Alright, so it seems the main point of your argument is that people begin caring more about ratings than they do about becoming the best. It's a valid point - after all, we see the same thing happen with Power Rankings. It's not something I care to argue for or against - Smash players will be Smash players, and there's no denying that at least several of them are going to put more effort into a number than overall improvement.

I would disagree with getting a "**** seeding regardless of skill", though... ELO on its own is a deflating score system that only increases points with the introduction of new players. Besides that, you're bound to be at least a little rusty if you missed four tournaments.

 

[GOD!]

noooooooooooooooooooo

main point is rating doesnt work because rating system only works if all people involved play each toher enoguh for rating to mean anything at all

there are of course 5000 other reaons why elo cant work and that's one of them

so shizwiz missed tournaments for forever and then came back and beat all of florida. florida super powerhouse of melee, ton of godlike players, and he never goes to a tournament and fuking 3-0's colbol or something... colbol..

there is rust and there is skill. sometimes breaks actually help u lose bad habits and let u think in fresh ways about the game

i mean why would u even need regional seeding? who doesnt know who is at this or that level within a region? honestly any one or two experienced players in a region should be able to sit down and seed a tournament in like 5 minutes.
w/e its just wrong for so many reasons, and even if u somehow find a possibly good use for elo system.. there are so many reasons not to use it that u are just wasting your time. idk the whole idea is bad and i still dont know any reasons why people, knowing the whole picture, could support it.