Eldiran's PSAs 'n' Stuff: Newest - Zero 1.4

[Rykoshet]

Eld, his Down Smash doesn't give him anything of a jump if he destroys a block that's under him. (i.e. Mushroomy Kingdom/Yoshi's Island (Melee))

It doesnt give him a jump because you're destroying the ground he would otherwise be jumping off...

 

[ScAtt77]

I love this character. Made my dream of having a MMX character in brawl come true. <3


Unfortunately, there's a few things that irk me:

-In brawl+, Zero's entrance animation seems a little long. Basically, my opponent seems to be able to move a split second before I can. Do you think that you could speed up this animation a little?

-Zero's shield is visible when he's hit by DK's side b on the ground

-Z-air isn't very useful to follow up with. The KB that brings the opponent in isn't enough to follow anything up with if it's spaced right. You basically have to space it wrong get a follow-up, which makes it pretty punishable. :O

 

[GHNeko]

Zair was intended to be ****ty. The only reason why it works at higher percents is because the move ACs extremely well, so you're back into neutral before the characters are out of their stun animation.

yes. You're relying on the length of a character's everyday animation. Not stun. LOL.

 

[Eldiran]

The lack of side B is just something I notice regardless but the clunkiness of the character makes him very sluggish in practice. In effect, the character can be punished for connecting certain moves at the wrong time and his lack of ground mobility without overutilizing his dash combined with his pretty paltry aerial game (most of the moves have to be done on ascent and that means that if youre committing to an aerial on the way down all it really takes is someone baiting you into acting with aerials that take as long as marth's fsmash to come out with terrible landing lag to dodge and punish you for it). Lack of an effective walling game, lack of a fluid projectile game aside from the boomerang which in effect completely removes his ground and aerial mobility means the character has a lot of sitting duck situations, even if he connects. His boomerang is rather good, but the character right now is too clunky to be defensive and way too open to be offensive.

Side B restoring is mainly a design gripe because there's no such thing as a move that doesnt require a charge suddenly disappearing if you're hit, it's just incongruent to the way brawl works in general. I'm assured that "oh he can make it back even if you do smack him out of his side B" but he's lighter than link and doesnt have that ridiculous vertical resistance to make up for it. The options out of side B are rather amazing though so I'll try to make due but mediocre/arguably bad recovery/weak ground game/lacking mobility/weak camping game/weak pressure game = all around weak character.

Warning! Long design discussion spiel:

Honestly, I can't see how running would be useful even if I increased it (save for when the shield is out). It'll never be as fast as Side+B, and they both have the same options (stop moving, dash attack, upsmash, jump). So I really don't see the lack of mobility.

His moves being punishable on hit mainly seems to refer to Nair, Utilt, and hitting with only the first kick of Bair (in my experience). The rest I can't actually get myself punished for hitting with (excluding very rare ftilt hits). I can understand how his aerial game is lacking due to landing lag and the situational use of Uair and Bair. A change I am definitely considering is lowering the landing lag on Fair.

I can also see a possible big change for his ground game, one which I actually got rid of early on after finding it too good. If I make Utilt's punch hitbox come out .5 frames earlier, it can hit people in front of Zero, giving him a good frame 1 or 2 (not sure which) attack at short range. Additionally I am considering making Dtilt come out faster.

Regarding Side B restoring... it's analogous to Pit's Up B, except that Zero has another option restored. I fear if I give the Side B back Zero will be incredibly hard to gimp; I'd sooner allow Up+B to be turned into a Side B.

There is one thing I am doing for his recovery, though, and that's making Side B, instead of doing nothing when expended, use Zero's tether. This allows him to turn around and tether much more easily.

Anyway. I'm super conservative making PSA characters because it's too easy to dismiss a custom character when he is overpowered. People are more tolerant of weak PSAs than they are of strong ones.

I love this character. Made my dream of having a MMX character in brawl come true. <3

Unfortunately, there's a few things that irk me:

-In brawl+, Zero's entrance animation seems a little long. Basically, my opponent seems to be able to move a split second before I can. Do you think that you could speed up this animation a little?

-Zero's shield is visible when he's hit by DK's side b on the ground

-Z-air isn't very useful to follow up with. The KB that brings the opponent in isn't enough to follow anything up with if it's spaced right. You basically have to space it wrong get a follow-up, which makes it pretty punishable. :O

Thanks! Responses to issues:
- The entry animation is actually identical in length to Link's.
- Alas, I can't fix that. His shield is also visible when shielding, or grabbing the ledge.
- Yeah, as GH (:V) said, Zair is not that useful until you get at high percents (it actually has KBG). This is intentional.

@:V Man you change icons like crazy!

 

[Rykoshet]

Honestly, I can't see how running would be useful even if I increased it (save for when the shield is out). It'll never be as fast as Side+B, and they both have the same options (stop moving, dash attack, upsmash, jump). So I really don't see the lack of mobility.

There's also shield, which you can do if you press down, the difference is that lack of mobility left and right both on the ground or in the air unless you USE side B means that if you want to give chase laterally in the air you're comitting to dashing and again, in a game with no hit stun all it takes is for someone to clip you while you're doing that for you to be out of that option.

Regarding Side B restoring... it's analogous to Pit's Up B, except that Zero has another option restored.

Not to be a smartass but the reason pit's up B doesnt restore when you hit him out of it is because he can fly and up B is very much literally a last resort. Side B is a staple to recovery, in regular brawl a character being somewhat hard to gimp is not a big deal. A lot of characters are fairly hard to gimp, theyre called the good characters...

There is one thing I am doing for his recovery, though, and that's making Side B, instead of doing nothing when expended, use Zero's tether. This allows him to turn around and tether much more easily.

Please dont do this, if someone wants to tether out of an expended side B they can just hit the command to tether, I use it to turn around in mid air if I want to land with a bair instead of a laggy fair.

 

[Shadic]

- Alas, I can't fix that. His shield is also visible when shielding, or grabbing the ledge.

You can now! It's texture-based, though.

 

[Eldiran]

There's also shield, which you can do if you press down, the difference is that lack of mobility left and right both on the ground or in the air unless you USE side B means that if you want to give chase laterally in the air you're comitting to dashing and again, in a game with no hit stun all it takes is for someone to clip you while you're doing that for you to be out of that option.

I understand that being able to lose Side B limits his air mobility, but you can't lose SideB by being knocked away when on the ground, so I still am unsure how running speed matters.

Not to be a smartass but the reason pit's up B doesnt restore when you hit him out of it is because he can fly and up B is very much literally a last resort. Side B is a staple to recovery, in regular brawl a character being somewhat hard to gimp is not a big deal. A lot of characters are fairly hard to gimp, theyre called the good characters...

'S cool. I'll look into how his recovery fares when he gets his Side B back, but I have a feeling it might be overwhelming, moreso even than other characters' recoveries.

Please dont do this, if someone wants to tether out of an expended side B they can just hit the command to tether, I use it to turn around in mid air if I want to land with a bair instead of a laggy fair.

I didn't think it had much offensive utility, but I may have been mistaken. If I reduce Fair's lag, it shouldn't matter as much... but I'll go ahead and change the tether to be activated on an expended Up B instead. I'm thinking of re-enabling DI during the tether, as well.

You can now! It's texture-based, though.

But, can I still have him use his shield on occasion? I was under the impression it was an all or nothing deal.

 

[Shadic]

Oh. I wasn't aware you actually used the shield. Whoops?

 

[GHNeko]

Zero has a shield?

 

[Eldiran]

Oh. I wasn't aware you actually used the shield. Whoops?

Yeah, it's his Down+B. Otherwise I'd remove it. Thanks anyway though.

Zero has a shield?

Yes, and a Final Smash.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Zero has a shield?

He beat the snot outta Protoman and took it.
-DD

 

[GHNeko]

Yes, and a Final Smash.

wtf is a final smash.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

wtf is a final smash.

Best...Quote....EVER....

 

[NxtGenFalco93]

i know lol its my new sig that was great

 

[Ryo242]

okay, several problems I've seen.

1. Wario's U-Air out prioritizes his D-air. This is wrong.
2. If you use Over+B while being knocked away, he sorta moves up a bit and doesn't gain the immediate horizontal recovery he should.
3. Way too easily counter attacked.
4. No horizontal movement on Forward Smashes.
5. Little knockback with nearly no killing moves.

Edit in more things.

6: Lack of water play. Yes, being in the water. Since his aerial moves are sub sub par, he can't do anything there.
6a: He sinks pretty far down in the water. Far deeper than any other character.
6b: He does not regain his Over+B after falling in water.
7: Lack of a suitable air game. No killing moves in air, instead he has to rely on N-air gimping. Which makes him about as effective as a Pichu no stamina mode with 1%.
8: Did I mention the lack of kill moves?
9: A-A-Up-A is a good combo, as is the A-A-A. It's nice that you can change it up. Only problem is that the computer can very easily DI out of it whereas the other people (including Link) can hit all the hits.
10: D-air. This is a big problem. It has no power on it, which was one of Link's primary killing moves. Maybe it can be moddified so it increases damage and knockback the longer it stays out?

 

[Plaid02]

All right, I tried looking at the FitLinkMotionEtc.pac in Brawlbox and I'm really confused. How on earth did you add that sword?

 

[Rykoshet]

it's just the sword glow graphic

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

Zero locks up if he's firing his burst shot (3 dots) blaster and the platform he's on goes away (Pictochat picture erasing, Luigi's Mansion floor breaking, etc). It's only until he's hit though.

 

[Eldiran]

okay, several problems I've seen.

1. Wario's U-Air out prioritizes his D-air. This is wrong.
2. If you use Over+B while being knocked away, he sorta moves up a bit and doesn't gain the immediate horizontal recovery he should.
3. Way too easily counter attacked.
4. No horizontal movement on Forward Smashes.
5. Little knockback with nearly no killing moves.

Edit in more things.

6: Lack of water play. Yes, being in the water. Since his aerial moves are sub sub par, he can't do anything there.
6a: He sinks pretty far down in the water. Far deeper than any other character.
6b: He does not regain his Over+B after falling in water.
7: Lack of a suitable air game. No killing moves in air, instead he has to rely on N-air gimping. Which makes him about as effective as a Pichu no stamina mode with 1%.
8: Did I mention the lack of kill moves?
9: A-A-Up-A is a good combo, as is the A-A-A. It's nice that you can change it up. Only problem is that the computer can very easily DI out of it whereas the other people (including Link) can hit all the hits.
10: D-air. This is a big problem. It has no power on it, which was one of Link's primary killing moves. Maybe it can be moddified so it increases damage and knockback the longer it stays out?

Thanks for the feedback! By the way, do you use vBrawl, BBrawl, or Brawl+?
Responses:

1- Dair's not impregnable, but it has an excellent range advantage. (It's priority is equal to a regular sword's.) It should only be beat by Wario's Uair if he spaces it very well.
2- Yep, being sent away by an attack screws up almost all momentum-changing attacks (see: Toon Link, Sonic, or ZSS' dair).
3, 4, 5- Zero's smashes, which are his only kill moves, are hard to land to make up for how easily he can land his aerial attacks.
6, 6a- Zero is poor in water because of his high falling speed, which causes him to plummet.
6b- he doesn't get it back when he gets hit, either.
7- Given the incredible mobility Side+B gives, I feel an aerial kill move would make him too powerful.
8- Are you using version 1.1? His smashes can be landed much more easily, allowing him some decent kills.
9- if they can DI out of the regular AAA combo, that's something I'll definitely look into fixing.
10- Dair is intentionally far different from Link's. It's useful for much different things... as for an aerial killing move, there's #7.

Anyway! Thank you again for giving Zero a try. Even though it seems like I dismissed most of your criticisms, I'm really just being very cautious about over-buffing him. I need to be convinced by multiple testimonies that he is truly weak before I give him more. So, I'm definitely taking all this into account in future decisions.

it's just the sword glow graphic

Yep, this.

Zero locks up if he's firing his burst shot (3 dots) blaster and the platform he's on goes away (Pictochat picture erasing, Luigi's Mansion floor breaking, etc). It's only until he's hit though.

Woops. I'll fix that.

 

[Photos]

sorry i'm reposting this. i've tried brawl+ &BBrawl, but neither of them have worked for me. please help me.

 

[Yunior597]

is really needed the unrestricted control editing code?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

sorry i'm reposting this. i've tried brawl+ &BBrawl, but neither of them have worked for me. please help me.

make sure you save the files to the right places and make sure you have 3.5.1 file replacement on.

 

[GHNeko]

is really needed the unrestricted control editing code?

Nope. It's simply to make use of his Utaunt being changed into another Side B

 

[tsunami70875]

your pictures are gone...

 

[Eldiran]

your pictures are gone...

D< And here I thought photobucket was reliable. I really wish they'd state outright what the bandwidth limit is... if it doesn't come back before long I'll replace them.

 

[GHNeko]

Immaaaggeeeeshhhhaacckkk

 

[Eldiran]

Immaaaggeeeeshhhhaacckkk

That's what I used for Wisp, and the same thing happened around this time too... :/

 

[Kei_Takaro]

Why not Photobucket? Never let me down before =D

 

[Photos]

make sure you save the files to the right places and make sure you have 3.5.1 file replacement on.

ok, thanks. where can i get that?

 

[Photos]

Never mind, i found it, Thanks!

 

[ChronicleX]

Now that you have turned the Up Taunt into a dash button, would you ever consider giving Zero a new Side B?

 

[Eldiran]

Why not Photobucket? Never let me down before =D

That's what I'm using right now. :\

Now that you have turned the Up Taunt into a dash button, would you ever consider giving Zero a new Side B?

It's highly unlikely. The dash button is for those who find it more convenient/want a Megaman X-like playstyle. I personally actually prefer to use Side+B.

 

[ChronicleX]

It's highly unlikely. The dash button is for those who find it more convenient/want a Megaman X-like playstyle. I personally actually prefer to use Side+B.

Then what about more shield mod based moves? At the moment I do not find the shield very useful at all as it only ever works when you are standing still doing nothing, maybe make it so projectiles hit by the thrown shield get deflected (like when your holding it). It would make sense and give zero a reason to throw the shield and dash after it.

I am still amazed by the fact I am giving feedback on Zero in brawl though! Whats your next project going to be after Zero is complete?

Edit - I would also like to report that Zero 1.1 causes Crashes during some turns. I think it is todo with using the new Up Taunt dash while turning (as all the crashes I have had only happen when I use this new button). It is a shame as experimenting with "Dash-Shotting" is pretty fun, but the crashes are getting on my nerves.

Edit 2 - I got it to crash again just now for trying to dash + Jump at the same time using the Uptaunt button, no turning involved.

 

[Eldiran]

Then what about more shield mod based moves? At the moment I do not find the shield very useful at all as it only ever works when you are standing still doing nothing, maybe make it so projectiles hit by the thrown shield get deflected (like when your holding it). It would make sense and give zero a reason to throw the shield and dash after it.

Thaatt's actually a really cool idea. I can't make it destroy projectiles like when he holds it, but I can make it reflect them, which would be really neat. (At least I think I can do that. It'd be hard because I have to hex edit.)

I am still amazed by the fact I am giving feedback on Zero in brawl though! Whats your next project going to be after Zero is complete?

I'm not sure! I'm weighing my options, trying to decide what would end up being the most awesome and unique. Currently I've been fiddling around with the Alloys to see if I can add some missing things (like shields and dodges).

Edit - I would also like to report that Zero 1.1 causes Crashes during some turns. I think it is todo with using the new Up Taunt dash while turning (as all the crashes I have had only happen when I use this new button). It is a shame as experimenting with "Dash-Shotting" is pretty fun, but the crashes are getting on my nerves.

Edit 2 - I got it to crash again just now for trying to dash + Jump at the same time using the Uptaunt button, no turning involved.

Nice catches -- I will work on finding and fixing those.

 

[ChronicleX]

Thaatt's actually a really cool idea. I can't make it destroy projectiles like when he holds it, but I can make it reflect them, which would be really neat. (At least I think I can do that. It'd be hard because I have to hex edit.)

Great. That shield needs more use, its not worth it at all currently.

I'm not sure! I'm weighing my options, trying to decide what would end up being the most awesome and unique. Currently I've been fiddling around with the Alloys to see if I can add some missing things (like shields and dodges).

If you are taking suggestions then I'd like to suggest Viewtiful Joe. Problem is to get a good Joe you'd need to base it off Link's B moveset and I dunno how all this editing stuff works, can you make someone use another persons specials? If yes then I could easily get a list of moves and how you could make them together (based on what I have seen you and other people do, IE use Character X Animation, use X model, Etc). A master of speeding up / Slowing things down would be pretty unique to me.

Nice catches -- I will work on finding and fixing those.

Np, keep up the good work

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

Great. That shield needs more use, its not worth it at all currently.




If you are taking suggestions then I'd like to suggest Viewtiful Joe. Problem is to get a good Joe you'd need to base it off Link's B moveset and I dunno how all this editing stuff works, can you make someone use another persons specials? If yes then I could easily get a list of moves and how you could make them together (based on what I have seen you and other people do, IE use Character X Animation, use X model, Etc). A master of speeding up / Slowing things down would be pretty unique to me.




Np, keep up the good work

Another problem with Viewtiful Joe would be that anything other than vBrawl does NOT like time slowing mechanics

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

You know what's fun with Zero?
His side taunt is reflectable, Absorbable, and bucketable

 

[Rykoshet]

Alright, I keep seeing the reasoning that a move has a single good aspect so it's "meant to lack" the others. That reasoning is why zero's aspects are so limited. Having a couple of strong moves on the ground does not mean he should have no strong moves in the air. Having fast moves in the air does not mean he should have no fast shots on the ground. Having 1 relatively good projectile that REMOVES his only means of lateral mobility (for things like retreating pivot grabs or in general just being able to walk or step away from an assault instead of relying on a dodge) until you chuck it doesnt justify his other projectile being bad. Range, power, and speed are the 3 aspects to all moves. A move having all 3 is what makes it overpowered, a move only having one is what makes it bad. His nair being good as a damage builder doesnt justify it being laggy because last I checked lag is something you throw onto moves that have potential to kill, and zero's nair will never do that. You're excluding 2 aspects of moves then not even making the one aspect the move is supposed to have exceptional to make up for it. Ike's fsmash has power and range, so it loses speed. Marth's fsmash has speed and range, so it loses all around power except in a specific instance. Snake's ftilt and up tilt should have only speed and power, the range is what makes it broken. Meta knight's down smash should only have range and speed, the power is what makes it broken. Zero's moves are 1 of the 3. Fsmash = Power, No Range, meh speed. Ftilt = Range, no speed, no power. Down smash = Had power, obviously lacked speed and range but it was safe. The power was cut for some reason.

Keep in mind that all of the characters I mentioned have useful ground and air games. In fact, most if not all characters have a killshot aerial with an exception being maybe sheik and she gets the bonus of having a whole other character to work with. Snake is probably the most one sided with his ground game dwarfing his air game but all of his aerials at least being capable of KOing. You're shortchanging your own character in hopes of making something that isnt broken, but as it stands you're selling your own character short severely.

In all seriousness, make his fair and up air capable of killing, destroy the lag on his nair, give him some ground mobility in his run and walk to make side B something you WANT to use instead of something you HAVE to use. Restore the kill potential of his down smash. Add range to his ground kill shots. Give his descending uncharged autocancel properties. Being able to follow up into a 3 damage easily power shielded and punished laggy grounded shot is not something that will overpower the chracter, most people arent gonna risk doing a standing shot because the punishment potential is too high. All of these suggestions, if you put them together, will still not make your vbrawl zero overpowered.

 

[ChronicleX]

Eldiran a little more feedback on the whole Shield not having much potential as a move modifier.

Why not make it so Down B Equips / un-equips his Z-saber. You could use Tatsunoko vs. Capcom youtube footage for reference for some unarmed moves. It would make more sense than trying to turn that shield into a situational replacement for the dash.

Edit - Just won a normal brawl then went to practice, game froze again. Not sure if its B+ or Zero related but I have not had it crash going to training without Zero, so just letting you know.

Edit 2 - I also agree with what the above guy said, focing Zero to have to Side B to dash is not exactly "fun". You could give him a proper standard ground dash and make it so that while in Side B version of the dash, he counts as being in the air (which would make him unique in being able to dash in the air and use air moves as dash attacks on the ground).

Edit 3 - Please do something about the down-B! It is the bane of Zero, if you use it and not dash by mistake it is certain doom and it serves no use!

 

[Zen Yore]

I tried Zero, he feels really weird.
His grab is strange and has no hookshot, but he still has a grapple in his Zair

also i dont really get the side b's

basically when u press down b, zero pulls out a shield and his side-b becomes a boomer throw?
hes a pretty complicated character, but he's really fun to play.

PS : recovery is too good