Editorial: Evo and Mii Legality

From the mouth of Mr. Wizard himself: within the next week, Evo organizer Joey Cuellar will be discussing the ruleset with Bear, one of the tournament organizers of Genesis 3, and D1, one of the most prolific commentators in Smash history. With this happening, a debate has risen yet again over the legality of three characters within Smash 4: the Mii Fighters.

Before continuing on, I shall admit a slight bias: I enjoy using Mii Swordfighter in Smash 4. However, I want to offer an unbiased look at how rulesets have been historically decided within Smash and other fighting game communities and use this to facilitate discussion on how Miis should be handled within the game.

David Sirlin's Play to Win is one of the most influential written pieces for competitive gaming. Having an extensive resume in game design, David Sirlin knows his stuff. The Play to Win series is available absolutely free online for those who want to read it, but the piece we will be focusing on here is called What Should Be Banned?

Let's look at the criteria of a ban. To quote him directly, "A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted." The first one is fairly obvious; if you want to ban something, you have to be able to enforce it. Second, the thing to be banned must be, to quote Sirlin again, "able to be 'completely defined.'"

Taking a quick jaunt back to the days of Brawl, there was a time when the stage Pirate Ship was legal. The stage had an issue where players could stall in the water and put an opponent in a very disadvantaged position if they tried to approach. There was no good way to simply ban the tactic: what if a player fell into the water innocently? How long could you stay there before it was considered stalling? There was no way to make the rule discrete. As the strategy was very strong, a ban on the stage was warranted, and thus the stage left the competitive spectrum.

Let's look to timers as another example. I've previously written an entire piece on the history of timers in Smash, which is a good primer on why we use stocks or even have a timer at all, so consider reading it. We chose to use stocks and a timer as our rules to make the game playable competitively at the best level.

This goes for stages as well. We all know that stages like Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Brinstar, and Green Greens were once commonly legal within Melee but aren't any longer. It was found within the mechanics of Melee that these stages had issues where they provided extreme advantages to certain characters, so their ban was warranted to have a good competitive game. When Brawl came around, all of those stages listed above were retested for legality with all but Corneria actually being fully legal for quite some time. They too eventually were found to give too powerful an advantage with Meta Knight legal and thus met the ban hammer. Come Smash 4, Corneria and Brinstar were tested YET AGAIN to be sure that with the new mechanics they would still warrant a ban. Some 3DS tournaments still run with Brinstar legal. We only subtract as little as possible, change as little as physically possible to find the proper ruleset for a game.

The Original Smash 4 Character Select Screen​

Now we come to Miis. Take a look at that character select screen above. Notice anything interesting about it? There are no Miis available. Miis do not show up as selectable characters until one has already been created. So we are at a unique impasse: we must decide whether, like changing the stock count, adding a timer, and turning on team attack in doubles, we should even have Miis in the first place.

Many who watch the game know and have heard the arguments for Miis being legal: Miis can use all their moves even with customs off. Miis have not caused an issue at any major tournament. They are not overpowered. Miis at a default size take less time to make than it takes to set up control schemes.

These things are not the real issues. By going into the customization menu to use Miis in the first place, we are accepting that having Miis legal adds enough to the game competitively to warrant us doing so. When we then surgically limit them to only their first moves, it directly contrasts with this philosophy.

George Santayana was correct: "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." In Brawl, Meta Knight was kept legal by many surgical rules. This caused much tension and argument within the Smash community. Today, the same is currently being done with Miis, except it is being done to keep them from playing at full potential. The same tensions are already rising.

So, should Miis be legal at EVO 2016, or should they be banned entirely? What is the best course of action moving forward? That I do not not have an answer to. However, I can say that we have only two options: ban Miis altogether, or allow them their full moveset.

This is an adaptation of the piece "Miis Should Be 100% Legal Or 100% Banned", which was also written by this author. This piece is purely the opinion of its author and does not reflect the position of Smashboards or its affiliates.

 

[deleting]

 

Even if full custom Miis somehow became a dominating competitive force that was better than 3/4 of the roster.......they still wouldn't hold a candle to the current top tier.

We haven't banned Sheik, so why the heck would we ban Miis of all things?

1. As dominating as Sheik is, Sheik dittos aren't nearly as much of a problem as pre-patch Diddy dittos or Brawl MK dittos were, which shows that there are enough other viable characters to not warrant a ban.
2. Sheik, as with most other characters, is handled much more consistently in terms of customs than Miis, so an argument against her custom moves isn't made as easily (it can still be done and I'm sure it has, don't get me wrong).
The same points can be made for ZSS and to a lesser extent Rosaluma or other top tiers, though Rosa in particular is not nearly as dominant as the others.

 

make em fully legal with all their customs.

seriously even with the ideal setup in custom moves, the mii's aren't that threatening.

 

Why do people insist on beating up this dead horse more than it is necessary? Here you go: All default size, any moveset, no moveset counterpicking in a set, all customs allowed, DONE!!!!! Can I be a TO too?! "But time gets wasted" Sure, with the sheer amount of what? 2 Mii players out of 100 people?! That surely have no human being experience and will likely be eliminated as soon as they enter? "But matchup unfamiliarity" Dude, there are 58 FREAKING characters. You can't know EVERY matchup in everdome in full detail, if you do congratulations! "But Mii Brawler 1122 is top tier/broken/braindead blah blbha blh" This clearly shows you know nothing about the character. Only idiots who sit on the ledge all day without doing something called DI are going to die continuosly to the D-Throw to Helicopter Kick crap. The matchup is learned in 5 minutes, never go to the ledge, it's not like Mii Brawler has approach options anyways. Mii Brawler has strict % when to do the combo, past 60% he is just as unmenacing as DHD's kill power. Mii Brawler is not top tier ladies and gentlemen, he is just an overrated gimmicky character like Yoshi and Pac-Man. IMO none of the Miis with their best moves go past D tier, so if E- tier characters are banned, why not just ban every freaking character in the roster too!? "For the sake of consistency blah blha 1 moveset" The populars will obviously show up more frequently, and unpopular moves are by all means, "low tier." "But other characters have useless moves blah bllha bal" Yes, too bad, but Miis are TRASH and their gimmick is changing their moves. "Git gud" Yes, I'm going to get good with trash tier characters that are banned anyways. It's like if Zelda was banned from tournaments and I wanted to play her.

 

As long as they're standard sized it's fine with me.

 

1111 guests or gtfo

 

Why do people insist on beating up this dead horse more than it is necessary?

Because it is a relevant issue that still hasn't been fully addressed, as much as you like to believe it has.

Here you go: All default size, any moveset, no moveset counterpicking in a set, all customs allowed, DONE!!!!!

If by all customs you mean all other characters get customs too, then yes, I would agree that it would solve all issues outside of grinding. If instead you mean only Miis (and possibly Palutena) get all their moves, that presents the issue of why other characters can't also use their customs. Indeed, Miis are terrible even with their customs allowed, but the argument is still there regardless.

Can I be a TO too?! "But time gets wasted" Sure, with the sheer amount of what? 2 Mii players out of 100 people?! That surely have no human being experience and will likely be eliminated as soon as they enter? "But matchup unfamiliarity" Dude, there are 58 FREAKING characters. You can't know EVERY matchup in everdome in full detail, if you do congratulations! "But Mii Brawler 1122 is top tier/broken/braindead blah blbha blh" This clearly shows you know nothing about the character. Only idiots who sit on the ledge all day without doing something called DI are going to die continuosly to the D-Throw to Helicopter Kick crap. The matchup is learned in 5 minutes, never go to the ledge, it's not like Mii Brawler has approach options anyways.
Mii Brawler has strict % when to do the combo, past 60% he is just as unmenacing as DHD's kill power. Mii Brawler is not top tier ladies and gentlemen, he is just an overrated gimmicky character like Yoshi and Pac-Man. IMO none of the Miis with their best moves go past D tier, so if E- tier characters are banned, why not just ban every freaking character in the roster too!?

If you don't want to learn or at least be aware of the matchup, that's on you. And since when did people say that Mii Brawler was top tier when they weren't smaller than Kirby?

"For the sake of consistency blah blha 1 moveset" The populars will obviously show up more frequently, and unpopular moves are by all means, "low tier." "But other characters have useless moves blah bllha bal" Yes, too bad, but Miis are TRASH and they can have much better options without grinding and not be trash.

The same could be argued for other bottom tiers.

"Git gud" Yes, I'm going to get good with trash tier characters that are banned anyways. It's like if Zelda was banned from tournaments and I wanted to play her.

Well, that's your own fault if you don't want to spend the effort. Look at ESAM with his Samus. She's garbage tier, but he's gained noteworthy, even if not spectacular, results with her.

Also, learn to grammar without insulting people. If you're a troll, hope you enjoyed your meal

 

There were never problems with default size Mii Fighters before, so I have no idea why they're an issue now. Even with their full moveset, none of the Miis were really seen as overpowered or anything.

 

There were never problems with default size Mii Fighters before, so I have no idea why they're an issue now. Even with their full moveset, none of the Miis were really seen as overpowered or anything.

It's more an issue with the principle of the thing. Viability is a major concern, but the biggest problems are more related to consistency with other characters, counterpick advantage, and the possibility of a slippery slope with handling customs in a Customs OFF environment.

 

Geez this article is one giant false dichotomy.
No offense SmashCapps, I love your writing, but this whole thing seems to be founded on logical fallacies.

There's none, absolutely zero, reason we can't just have miis legal and using 1/1/1/1.

The Original Smash 4 Character Select Screen​

Now we come to Miis. Take a look at that character select screen above. Notice anything interesting about it? There are no Miis available. Miis do not show up as selectable characters until one has already been created. So we are at a unique impasse: we must decide whether, like changing the stock count, adding a timer, and turning on team attack in doubles, we should even have Miis in the first place.

This is just silly. There are a lot more characters besides Miis that don't show up by default because you need to unlock them or buy them. Saying "Mii's aren't on the character select screen so we shouldn't have them legal" doesn't make sense. This is like saying "does unlocking or purchasing characters add to the game competitively?" Witch has a fairly obvious answer.

These things are not the real issues. By going into the customization menu to use Miis in the first place, we are accepting that having Miis legal adds enough to the game competitively to warrant us doing so. When we then surgically limit them to only their first moves, it directly contrasts with this philosophy.

George Santayana was correct: "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." In Brawl, Meta Knight was kept legal by many surgical rules. This caused much tension and argument within the Smash community. Today, the same is currently being done with Miis, except it is being done to keep them from playing at full potential. The same tensions are already rising.

Meta Knight and Miis are nowhere near comparable. Meta Knight was a character who fundamentally broke the balance of the game. People had to mess with the rules in order to keep the game in a playable state *cough planking cough*. Miis are just a weird technicality with customs. We're not "surgically limiting" them by banning alternate movesets, we're holding them to the same standards as every other character. And by the way 1/1/1/1 is the default. Because when you create a Mii that's the moves they have. You have to actually change them to get something besides 1/1/1/1. Seriously, this whole debate on how "Miis have no defaults because they start in the custom menu" is ridiculous. Being in the custom menu doesn't change their moves, changing their moves changes their moves. Their default is 1/1/1/1 just like every other character in this video game, people just need to deal with that.

So, should Miis be legal at EVO 2016, or should they be banned entirely? What is the best course of action moving forward? That I do not not have an answer to. However, I can say that we have only two options: ban Miis altogether, or allow them their full moveset.

Why? Is it because allowing Miis only with 1/1/1/1 is too "arbitrary"? Because frankly, banning them entirely or giving them special options no one else in the cast gets sounds a heck of a lot more arbitrary to me.

 

Because it is a relevant issue that still hasn't been fully addressed, as much as you like to believe it has.

If by all customs you mean all other characters get customs too, then yes, I would agree that it would solve all issues outside of grinding. If instead you mean only Miis (and possibly Palutena) get all their moves, that presents the issue of why other characters can't also use their customs. Indeed, Miis are terrible even with their customs allowed, but the argument is still there regardless.

If you don't want to learn or at least be aware of the matchup, that's on you. And since when did people say that Mii Brawler was top tier when they weren't smaller than Kirby?

The same could be argued for other bottom tiers.

Well, that's your own fault if you don't want to spend the effort. Look at ESAM with his Samus. She's garbage tier, but he's gained noteworthy, even if not spectacular, results with her.

Also, learn to grammar without insulting people. If you're a troll, hope you enjoyed your meal

It's Miis gimmick to change their movesets to whatever they please. It's not the gimmick of other characters.
People were placing Mii Brawler high when he was fashion.
I edited the post but yeah, point 1.
With the results she has Samus isn't trash tier. She is low tier. A trash tier is someone like Zelda, Jigglypuff and 1111 Mii Brawler.
1, I'm not a native English speaker. 2. "Git gud" is popular on mesage boards and it's contagious. 3. I'm not a troll. If I'm hungry for Internet stupidity I visit other message boards or Youtube comment sections.

 

Well, that's your own fault if you don't want to spend the effort. Look at ESAM with his Samus. She's garbage tier, but he's gained noteworthy, even if not spectacular, results with her.

You missed his point here. What he meant was that he didn't want to put all of his time into learning a character that's just going to get banned anyway. Especially not one that he considers to be garbage.

Here is my thoughts on customs. Every normal fighter was made with a play style in mind, and customs change that style. The Miis never had a theme in mind because they were supposed to be versatile enough to support all styles of play. This is why their specials aren't turned off with everyone else's customs. Is it unfair for the Miis to be used with all customs but everyone else is still locked? In my opinion, because the Mii's don't over polarize the game because of this, the answer is no. And now, I'm gonna go to bed.

 

It's Miis gimmick to change their movesets to whatever they please. It's not the gimmick of other characters.

It's Palutena's gimmick as well. Her trophy explicitly mentions that "She's very adaptable—you can customize her into a long- or close-range fighter" and her customs are the only ones (besides Miis...) to be unlocked from the start and mentioned in the game's loading tips.

But oops, "the menu design" makes her irrelevant it seems.

 

It's Miis gimmick to change their movesets to whatever they please. It's not the gimmick of other characters.

Problem is giving Miis customization because it's their "gimmick" is incredibly arbitrary and is simply not defendable from a logical standpoint without granting customization to other characters.

Yes, the Miis were designed to have customs in mind, but when have we ever took into consideration how the game was "designed" to be played? Heck if we did, we wouldn't have any competitive smash at all. Simply put, granting Miis customs gives them special treatment, and we simply can't say "these characters are special snowflakes and get customs". I don't like it, I wish we could have custom Miis running around to their hearts content, but we have to be fair and treat every character equally, otherwise we descend into arbitrary rules that are not enforceable or enjoyable.

 

You'd rub a lot more people wrong by choosing from the two options in the poll. A ban on them is arbitrary for the same reasons you mentioned in the OP. Full legality with their custom moves is a double standard. It's us saying "custom moves shouldn't be allowed, but these three characters are cool". Ditto when you add or subtract Palutena from the equation. There's no right answer in terms of logic. Plus we'd have to do another community effort, suffer from the backlash of custom move supporters whose characters are not receiving the same attention, still have people spending time during a tournament importing their own miis (because nobody has talked about whether that aspect should be banned, and mii players want to import their funny costumes). It is my opinion that Miis should only be allowed their full moveset when everybody else is, and I know many would disagree. The logic of all of this is most sound when customizable characters and custom moves are linked.

The reason those two options are given is because our ability to create rulesets is / should be(?) based on the freedoms and limits of the game we're playing. The process this OP takes is:

Do we consider Miis a legitimate character to use in tournament? (If yes, we go through the game processes that place them on the Character Select Screen)

When that happens, you're now left with a game which gives these specific 3 characters the ability to "customise" their movesets when literally no-one else can in 'customs off'. The question then is, 'should we limit the game in order to keep them to 1111 rulesets?'

Well, should we? 'Fairness' is the term I hear most often quoted when it comes to these characters, but really, we know Smash as a game isn't "fair" at all. If you play Sheik, you're at an unfair advantage vs everyone else, but we have decided that it's not worth using in-game handicaps on Sheik or changing her moveset in order to 'nerf' her.

It seems like the 1111 moveset is 'fairer', but I'm not sure if it's really that simple. I would argue Miis were built in with this 'advantage', almost like how Bayo was built up with an intense combo game and WT in mind, the ability to change your moveset is almost the 'niche' of Mii Fighters. The game allows them to retain this 'advantage' even in customs off (unlike Palutena or anyone else), so we already have a situation where it's not a slippery slope, and the only real argument comes from whether you believe someone is allowed to have an advantage at the Character Select Screen... Except we already accepted a long time ago that we do because we don't place handicapping measures on the better characters in the game.

And while personally I wouldn't care if Miis could change their moveset mid-set, it probably is a valid argument that being able to win the CP contest without actually having to lose a game through customisations goes against our competitive ideals.



tl;dr A lot of our ruleset is based on what the game already allows, and the game allows Miis to use custom rulesets in a customs off environment, so changing that ruleset just for them is only up to whether we believe that it's "fairer", except we don't get to use that argument because we already accept Sheik is in this game and we don't try to arbitrarily limit her to be 'fairer'. And does this break them to the point of breaking competition? Obviously not. This is why I support Miis legal and fully equipped as opposed to everyone else having customs.

 

The reason those two options are given is because our ability to create rulesets is / should be(?) based on the freedoms and limits of the game we're playing. The process this OP takes is:

Do we consider Miis a legitimate character to use in tournament? (If yes, we go through the game processes that place them on the Character Select Screen)

When that happens, you're now left with a game which gives these specific 3 characters the ability to "customise" their movesets when literally no-one else can in 'customs off'. The question then is, 'should we limit the game in order to keep them to 1111 rulesets?'

Well, should we? 'Fairness' is the term I hear most often quoted when it comes to these characters, but really, we know Smash as a game isn't "fair" at all. If you play Sheik, you're at an unfair advantage vs everyone else, but we have decided that it's not worth using in-game handicaps on Sheik or changing her moveset in order to 'nerf' her.

It seems like the 1111 moveset is 'fairer', but I'm not sure if it's really that simple. I would argue Miis were built in with this 'advantage', almost like how Bayo was built up with an intense combo game and WT in mind, the ability to change your moveset is almost the 'niche' of Mii Fighters. The game allows them to retain this 'advantage' even in customs off (unlike Palutena or anyone else), so we already have a situation where it's not a slippery slope, and the only real argument comes from whether you believe someone is allowed to have an advantage at the Character Select Screen... Except we already accepted a long time ago that we do because we don't place handicapping measures on the better characters in the game.

And while personally I wouldn't care if Miis could change their moveset mid-set, it probably is a valid argument that being able to win the CP contest without actually having to lose a game through customisations goes against our competitive ideals.



tl;dr A lot of our ruleset is based on what the game already allows, and the game allows Miis to use custom rulesets in a customs off environment, so changing that ruleset just for them is only up to whether we believe that it's "fairer", except we don't get to use that argument because we already accept Sheik is in this game and we don't try to arbitrarily limit her to be 'fairer'. And does this break them to the point of breaking competition? Obviously not. This is why I support Miis legal and fully equipped as opposed to everyone else having customs.

Miis and customs is not about being "fair" because you're right, characters aren't fair. What it's about is being "standard" how we treat one character we have to treat all the others. So if we let Miis have customs why can't others have customs?

Thing is though, while yes Miis start after creating them on the customization screen, you still need to go and manually change their specials off of 1/1/1/1. So it's not at all arbitrary to limit them to that. Simply saying "you can't change those" is a rule that can be applied to every character. And if someone asks why the response is "because changing a special move from it's default constitutes a custom move, and those are banned."

 

I say Miis should be legal, in terms of custom moves only. Any that has custom stat-changing equipment should be obviously banned.

As for the people that raise the question of "This guy can use his 2122 Mii, but I can't use my 3213 Villager?" I think I have an answer to that.

The Mii customs are completely different attacks. The standard characters like DK and Villager only have customs that change the attributes of their already existing moves. In other words, those customs act like the Equipment. It changes the attributes, but nothing more.

Of course, there is the notable exception of Palutena, but most people I've seen usually end up going with her default moves, because most of her customs are arguably worse than what she starts with. (And Heavenly Light can be argued as one of the worst customs in the game.)

Of course, that's just the 2 cents of a guy who normally doesn't play Miis to begin with. So take what you will of that.

 

Of course, there is the notable exception of Palutena, but most people I've seen usually end up going with her default moves, because most of her customs are arguably worse than what she starts with. (And Heavenly Light can be argued as one of the worst customs in the game.)

what

Super Speed and Lightweight are by far her best specials and basically let her jump right out of bottom tier. People go with her default moves because, well, customs are banned.

If they were still allowed, at least hers, the bulk of Palutena players out there would certainly prefer those moves over crap like Counter and Reflect. Just ask Aerolink, who was the best custom Palutena player.

 

I'm sort of with the Soul Calibur opinion of no custom character (like how Devil Jin is banned.)

But Smash 4 has that weird custom moveset thing for vanilla characters that makes it kinda iffy. Though I think by virtue of DLC characters not having them, it should probably be banned.

 

I've never enjoyed this argument. Here's the shortened view from one of Australia's best players who just so happens to be a Palutena/Brawler main.

1. Yes Mii fighters should be legal. Why is this even a question? As had been mentioned earlier, once created the game pretty much treats them as equal with any other character in the game, be it unlockable, DLC - whatever really. All three are characters whose attacks are for the most part very subpar. What you do get out of keeping them banned is alienating new players from the scene, because their favorite 'character' isn't on the character select screen by conventional means, even though they can take less time to create than controls.

2. Yes Mii fighters should be allowed access to the moves they wish to use. I'm going to try and keep this brief. The game acknowledges them as special moves. You are basically prompted to customize them when you first create a Mii as is. This is the unique niche they add to the game. What reason is there to treat them differently? Because their special trait is something utilized on the CSS? You can't get counterpicked from round 1 because the first pick is blind. And I don't personally agree with Miis changing sets mid game, because that TECHNICALLY isn't even following the games rules of counterpicking a "character" anyway. (this is a point nobody has ever actually touched on) The starter stage is also picked after characters. So in no way has the match been decided from the start, not that it really affected most matchups to begin with.

3. Palutena is not a Mii, nor was she designed like one. Her moves are listed specifically as 'Custom moves' unlike Miis, and yes require you to flick on the almighty customs switch on the CSS. She was created to promote custom moves. Miis exist as fully customizable fighters, and were implemented into the game intentionally as character you create from scratch for that reason.


It's funny that once people wise up and legalize Miis, they'll start to realize just how small an impact it makes on anyone who doesn't actually play them.

Australia has had guest Miis legal with customs moves for several months now and we've seen no complaints. None of them are remotely high tier to begin with, so they aren't expected to take off anyway.

 

Banned. They suck, anyway

 

I don't really understand why Default Miis are banned in the first place, they don't break the game, they're not overpowered as all hell like Brawl Meta Knight, and they don't have anything special about them that will give the player a dramatic advantage.

 

I don't really understand why Default Miis are banned in the first place, they don't break the game, they're not overpowered as all hell like Brawl Meta Knight, and they don't have anything special about them that will give the player a dramatic advantage.

Default Miis are actually hardly ever banned. They're just restricted to the same standards as everyone else through TO rulesets to avoid "BUT MAH UI" arguments because customs are banned.

 

Miis of all sizes should be legal, and with any custom moves.

Palutena doesn't get her customs because you have to turn customs on. You can leave customs off and still pick 1123 Mii Brawler.

None of the Miis are top tier, even with custom sizes. What I like to refer to as Mii Smaller (small Mii Brawler) basically has to powershield Sheik's fair to approach (it's about the size of the Mii's entire body), and once you are out of guaranteed combo percents, you can just hold shield at center stage and he can't kill you - functionally, Mii Smaller feels like a worse Meta Knight in a lot of ways (no safe smash attack to throw out and less kill power overall, with a situational percent specific death combo, that also happens to be postion dependent as a Mii). And the other Miis are usually considered inferior to Smaller.

People who want to ban these characters just seem pretty bad at/scared of adapting or misinformed...

 

one thing I fail to understand is how people make a half-hearted effort to really solve a problem once and for all. some people ran rulesets that drastically differ from popular standards, and they don't suffer the problems that the majority constantly bring up.

if I recall, there was at one point a very notable patch where customs also got nerfed among several characters (which, btw, nobody gave any serious thought about since "customs are banned")... which leads me to wonder, why hasn't Sakurai's team done the same with everyone else? My conclusion is that they aren't even aware of it. because majority rulesets just shun them aside and pretend they don't exist.

considering how many consoles there are and how many people still play the game, it baffles me how so FEW have made any attempts of gathering the customs moves every now and then on the side... have some amiibos fight here, do some crazy orders there, just to kill time, y'know? plus, I've been seeing several snapshots of people cracking the game for occasional minor stuff, so it wouldn't surprise me if some... some Ego-trip chose to take it any farther than innocent model swap joke or artistic showoffs.

TL;DR: Miis and all their moves are not game breaking, and if it brings up any possible ones as a counterargument, go whine to daddy Sakurai about it, because he can't fix what he doesn't know about. OR, if you're feeling criminal, go hack the game like the people did once before and fix it yourself

 

IMO, they should be legal with full customization (regular size only) and counter-picking with the same mii class with different moves than before should be banned.

I don't see how they would pose a problem other than having to slightly adapt to each mii moveset combination, since the miis generally play the same, as it's not like all of their weakness can be fixed with a certain set.

 

I think the community should poll for one moveset and one moveset only that would best suit each Mii competitively and leave it at that instead of 1,1,1,1 or All.

As much as I want to support Mii's, there is one principal I do not like and it's having to memorize which specific moveset I'm facing before a match.

 

Banned. They suck, anyway

Ouch, did you get Helicopter Kicked or One-Inch Punched during the pre-patch days?

 

#MakeMiisGreatAgain

 

Miis were fine at MLG.
Miis were fine at Ktar.
Miis were fine at Evo.
Miis were fine pre-evo.

I dunno if people know this but Dapuffster pretty much quit Sm4sh because his character isn't allowed. (he plays Ike now but it isn't the same) Nyani has been making similar musings, she can't play her swordfighter. I think that's pretty stupid.

Not saying to spam them... but I think Bear, D1 and Mr. Wizard should know that people want to #FreeMii.

wait he has an ike? :o

 

I think the community should poll for one moveset and one moveset only that would best suit each Mii competitively and leave it at that instead of 1,1,1,1 or All.

As much as I want to support Mii's, there is one principal I do not like and it's having to memorize which specific moveset I'm facing before a match.

The thing is that some specials are more preference thing rather than which is purely better option. Good example of this is Swordfighter and his/her/its Up-Bs Hero's Spin and SSD. Hero's Spin adds OoS kill move to Swordfighter arsenal, but when it comes to recovery it is as easy to edgeguard as Link. SSD in the other hand is a superior recovery move (harder to challenge and has longer range), but has pretty much no other use than for recovery.

Making 1 set which everyone agrees upon is harder than you think. And when it comes to sizes... Well 0:0 or 25:0 are most common sizes within the Mii community, but once again there are some preference things. For example 50:0 size Swordfighter might not as powerful overall as 0:0 Swordfighter, but he does have a bit better recovery along with better edgeguarding game. But I will say that the main gameplan doesn't change even if you switch the moves or change the size.

 

Just Mii's at EVO please.

Just please. Show off the miis.

#FreeMii

 

The fact that nothing ever had gone wrong when Miis were given a chance makes the whole debate moronic. They never caused problems when given full control and never will with solid proof.

The game will be 2 years old this year and if anyone is gonna pull the lack of match up knowledge for how Mii's moves work card then that is entirely your fault as anyone seriously wanting to play competitively should be educated on how every character works to at least some degree.

 

Miis can use all of their customs without have the custom on, so I don't see any problem with them being legal with every set.

 

Germany has them allowed with all moves since the very beginning (because it was the most logical decision) and everyone is okay with it.

Default Miis are actually hardly ever banned. They're just restricted to the same standards as everyone else through TO rulesets to avoid "BUT MAH UI" arguments because customs are banned.

This "restricted to the same standards as everyone else" doesn't make sense.
You can apply that to so much things.
We have put items off. We are still allowing characters who spawn items (even the very one's we turned off!) so what should this "to the same standard as everyone else" mean?
The standard is "we allow everything the CSS has to offer and don't put out-of-game rules on it" and Mii's with all moves are as selectable as Diddy Kong.

If someone doesn't know: Equipment is deactivated with "Customs: off" even with Mii's. Only their moves work.

 

For me, a character is a character, and if there is a default moveset for them, there is nothing that should stop you from using them should you please. Of course you can edit the size of your Mii, but all we need to do is accept a universal rule, such as the "guest size mii" that is commonly used and that's that. Trying to argue otherwise in my opinion is deplorable.

 

Full legality or full ban. I'm tending to full ban, but if people can prepare miis of any size and move set variance I've no issue with it.

 

Both Panama and Brazil allow guest size and all single-number sets (1111, 2222, 3333) and we're fine with it. What bugs me is not what custom moves are legal or not, but rather the fact I don't know what I can practice since I might practice 2233 or somethin but then there may be a tournament thay only allows 1111 and I have to get used to other moves, or I can practice, say, 3333 but I find a tourney that allows any moveset and I'm at a disadvantage from having practiced only a single-number set X<

 

Germany has them allowed with all moves since the very beginning (because it was the most logical decision) and everyone is okay with it.



This "restricted to the same standards as everyone else" doesn't make sense.
You can apply that to so much things.
We have put items off. We are still allowing characters who spawn items (even the very one's we turned off!) so what should this "to the same standard as everyone else" mean?
The standard is "we allow everything the CSS has to offer and don't put out-of-game rules on it" and Mii's with all moves are as selectable as Diddy Kong.

If someone doesn't know: Equipment is deactivated with "Customs: off" even with Mii's. Only their moves work.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The problem with items isn't having items themselves its the fact that they have random spawns and are ludicrously overpowered. The items characters spawn have neither of those properties. Saying that allowing characters to spawn items isn't keeping them to the same standard would be like saying allowing Shiek to transform into Zelda in Melee or Brawl isn't holding people to the same standard.

"The same standard as everyone else" means that nobody gets to change their moves off the ones they are given by default. Just because the character select screen allows you do to something doesn't mean we have to. We banned equipment when customs were legal, but the game lets you equip your characters just as much as it does change your specials. We already have a ton of out-of-game rules, heck the entire stage system doesn't technically "exist" in the game. We shouldn't be basing what we do or don't allow on menu elements of all things. In terms of gameplay, there is no difference in allowing the Miis to change their special moves and allowing a character like Palutena to change hers.

 

1111 guests or gtfo

no

Last Evo showed us that customs were bad in the competitive field, so this year they're gone (hopefully).

..and this happened when?

Wait, why do we have to take an absolute stance? It's entirely possible that one aspect of the Miis is banworthy and the others are fine! Pretty much everyone thinks minimum size Miis are busted and with reason, and it'd be as easy to enforce as only allowing the default size "Guest Mii" to be used in tournaments. Mii customs are a different question entirely, and we gain nothing by lumping multiple aspects of this into one group and demanding we legalize or ban all of it at once.

And why does the absence of Miis on the default CSS mean banning them should be treated as the default? They just aren't technically unlocked until you've made one. It'd be like banning Lucina, Duck Hunt, or any of the DLC characters for not also being there from the start!

I don't feel minimum size Miis are busted, even if (somehow) they manage to be top tier they are definitely not game breaking. I'm not saying it's practical to allow all sizes and customization (while I'd definitely prefer it, I'd be maining Mii swordfighter now if that were the case) using the reason "it's broken" is just completely false.

I think the community should poll for one moveset and one moveset only that would best suit each Mii competitively and leave it at that instead of 1,1,1,1 or All.

As much as I want to support Mii's, there is one principal I do not like and it's having to memorize which specific moveset I'm facing before a match.

This sounds like a you problem though, it's not really fair to limit them because of that. You don't know the moves? Not the Mii main's problem. They're all very simple to understand anyways. Look up a picture on Google Images or something and just remember that. Not difficult at all.