Editorial: Evo and Mii Legality

Should Miis be able to use all of their moves, or be completely banned?

  • Legalize

    Votes: 422 79.9%
  • Banned

    Votes: 106 20.1%

  • Total voters
    528
From the mouth of Mr. Wizard himself: within the next week, Evo organizer Joey Cuellar will be discussing the ruleset with Bear, one of the tournament organizers of Genesis 3, and D1, one of the most prolific commentators in Smash history. With this happening, a debate has risen yet again over the legality of three characters within Smash 4: the Mii Fighters.

Before continuing on, I shall admit a slight bias: I enjoy using Mii Swordfighter in Smash 4. However, I want to offer an unbiased look at how rulesets have been historically decided within Smash and other fighting game communities and use this to facilitate discussion on how Miis should be handled within the game.


David Sirlin's Play to Win is one of the most influential written pieces for competitive gaming. Having an extensive resume in game design, David Sirlin knows his stuff. The Play to Win series is available absolutely free online for those who want to read it, but the piece we will be focusing on here is called What Should Be Banned?

Let's look at the criteria of a ban. To quote him directly, "A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted." The first one is fairly obvious; if you want to ban something, you have to be able to enforce it. Second, the thing to be banned must be, to quote Sirlin again, "able to be 'completely defined.'"

Taking a quick jaunt back to the days of Brawl, there was a time when the stage Pirate Ship was legal. The stage had an issue where players could stall in the water and put an opponent in a very disadvantaged position if they tried to approach. There was no good way to simply ban the tactic: what if a player fell into the water innocently? How long could you stay there before it was considered stalling? There was no way to make the rule discrete. As the strategy was very strong, a ban on the stage was warranted, and thus the stage left the competitive spectrum.

Let's look to timers as another example. I've previously written an entire piece on the history of timers in Smash, which is a good primer on why we use stocks or even have a timer at all, so consider reading it. We chose to use stocks and a timer as our rules to make the game playable competitively at the best level.

This goes for stages as well. We all know that stages like Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Brinstar, and Green Greens were once commonly legal within Melee but aren't any longer. It was found within the mechanics of Melee that these stages had issues where they provided extreme advantages to certain characters, so their ban was warranted to have a good competitive game. When Brawl came around, all of those stages listed above were retested for legality with all but Corneria actually being fully legal for quite some time. They too eventually were found to give too powerful an advantage with Meta Knight legal and thus met the ban hammer. Come Smash 4, Corneria and Brinstar were tested YET AGAIN to be sure that with the new mechanics they would still warrant a ban. Some 3DS tournaments still run with Brinstar legal. We only subtract as little as possible, change as little as physically possible to find the proper ruleset for a game.


The Original Smash 4 Character Select Screen

Now we come to Miis. Take a look at that character select screen above. Notice anything interesting about it? There are no Miis available. Miis do not show up as selectable characters until one has already been created. So we are at a unique impasse: we must decide whether, like changing the stock count, adding a timer, and turning on team attack in doubles, we should even have Miis in the first place.

Many who watch the game know and have heard the arguments for Miis being legal: Miis can use all their moves even with customs off. Miis have not caused an issue at any major tournament. They are not overpowered. Miis at a default size take less time to make than it takes to set up control schemes.

These things are not the real issues. By going into the customization menu to use Miis in the first place, we are accepting that having Miis legal adds enough to the game competitively to warrant us doing so. When we then surgically limit them to only their first moves, it directly contrasts with this philosophy.

George Santayana was correct: "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." In Brawl, Meta Knight was kept legal by many surgical rules. This caused much tension and argument within the Smash community. Today, the same is currently being done with Miis, except it is being done to keep them from playing at full potential. The same tensions are already rising.

So, should Miis be legal at EVO 2016, or should they be banned entirely? What is the best course of action moving forward? That I do not not have an answer to. However, I can say that we have only two options: ban Miis altogether, or allow them their full moveset.

This is an adaptation of the piece "Miis Should Be 100% Legal Or 100% Banned", which was also written by this author. This piece is purely the opinion of its author and does not reflect the position of Smashboards or its affiliates.
 

Comments

I could see both sides of the argument pretty well. Why should three characters be the exception among many? You can't plan or train against whatever kind of movesets they might have up their sleeve.

On the other hand, wouldn't a Mii meta then theoretically develop amongst them? Eventually, people would be able to learn, adapt, and figure out which ones to look out for and counter...but then again, there are so many possible combinations. 495, if I did my combinations math correctly. And that's just for ONE Mii. Counting all the Miis, there are 1,485 possible combinations. Who knows how many work great for most or spectacular for others? What if the matchup comes down to not being aware of a combo? Wouldn't that ruin the point of attempting to show who is mote skilled? Or would it do the opposite and show the most skilled players are ready for anything? So many questions, so many factors...

Miis might wind up needing a whole set of rules on their own which is much harder and more time-consuming than just banning them.

I voted to legalize them. Let us conduct a tiny experiment with them and see if they ever cause too large a problem. :)
 
You'd rub a lot more people wrong by choosing from the two options in the poll. A ban on them is arbitrary for the same reasons you mentioned in the OP. Full legality with their custom moves is a double standard. It's us saying "custom moves shouldn't be allowed, but these three characters are cool". Ditto when you add or subtract Palutena from the equation. There's no right answer in terms of logic. Plus we'd have to do another community effort, suffer from the backlash of custom move supporters whose characters are not receiving the same attention, still have people spending time during a tournament importing their own miis (because nobody has talked about whether that aspect should be banned, and mii players want to import their funny costumes). It is my opinion that Miis should only be allowed their full moveset when everybody else is, and I know many would disagree. The logic of all of this is most sound when customizable characters and custom moves are linked.
I think the mind set that Mii's are like every other character in the sense that ''if they could use all their moves, other characters should be able to also'' is the wrong mind set when viewing Mii's.
First of all, the name tells you a lot about the point of the characters. They're called ''Mii's'', meaning that they are personal to YOU and YOUR choice as to how they play and what move set they have based on how YOU feel you want your own personal customisable character to work. That's why Smash has given you 3 presets in the form of the 3 basic types of characters you'd find in a fighting game: Brawlers, Swordsmen, or Gunners... Rush down, midrange, or long range respectively. And within those presets, you are given the opportunity to PERSONALISE your own unique CUSTOM fighter. It's like Sakurai saying ''I've given you 50-odd characters in the game, but incase none of them suit your play style, you have the opportunity to make your own based off of YOU: Mii... Me.''

Because of this, it's pretty clear that you can't just say ''Mii's get to use 2122 but DK must stick to 1111'' Because Mii's is not A character, they ARE Characters designed to be like snowflakes... no 2 mii are guaranteed to be the same. And although there are preferable sets or even ''optimal'' sets, the fact that they are CUSTOM FIGHTERS remain the same. Mario will always be Mario cause he's Mario... Mii's could be anyone because they're you and me.
 
I think they should be legal. From what little I've seen of Mii's in tournaments, they don't look broken and they aren't sweeping up wins. Even movesets that aren't 1/1/1/1 aren't terribly overpowered or broken in any way so why not let people use them?
 
Noone of the midweight mii is near to being toptier, and even the mini mii brawler can not be seen as overpowered. All he has to kill you are upB and maybe his Upsmash, sure that will happen quite a time, but it's also a disadvantage. Plus, while having a good air mobility, his range is not good.

And remember we live in janky times. Its not like meta knight is banned for his rather stupid upair to upB strings, neither is bayonetta or zss or whoever, there are enough examples.

At the very least Mii should be allowed midweight with all moves. But i could also imagine to legalize the mini-version because of the arguments i gave.
 
Really great article.

I agree that they should be banned or fully legal, but I don't get why the fact that they are not on the CSS until you make one is an argument. I mean, until you unlock a character he is not on the CSS either, that's pretty much the same thing. IMO the only argument to ban them is that they are party characters, in the game just for fun, so they don't fit the competitive play (which is not my opinion btw).

EDIT : Ehh I think I'm going to buy the paper version of the book you linked, looks really interesting !
 
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Did the people saying "why can't we just do 1111?" even read this article? It's because there is no reason to draw that arbitrary line.
I disagree. I think they should be legal with 1111. Why should miis get to use custom moves while others do not? Simply to make them more viable? Then where do we draw the line on who is bad enough to be able to use what customs? We can have the customs discussion all over again, but that's a broader discussion than just miis. As long as its a non-customs tournament, miss should be 1111.
 
I'm going to make this very simple to understand for everyone reading: with the 3 new dlc in the game and with what one could consider their powerful if not OP special movesets (talking cloud, corrin, and bayonetta) there is no excuse not only for customized miis to not be legal, but for custom moves in general to be banned as well. With the exception of a few moves that "break the game" (villager trip sapling and dk wind kong, and perhaps sonic hammer spin dash), or is just OP (pikachu heavy skull bash) there is NOT a single other custom move that one could consider better than anything bayo, corrin, or cloud have. Period. And anyone who addresses me or my argument without addressing the 3 new dlc is not arguing in good faith, I'm warning you in advance.

And as a dk main, I will happily agree to have wind kong and a few other custom moves from other characters BANNED so that characters can enjoy their customs again and make them viable against not only the top tiers but against the new dlc. Ganondorf needs his customs back and I'll do anything to let him and others get it back. I'm sure esam would agree to have heavy skull bash banned as well for the good of allowing customs moves to be returned. Anyone who abhors what I just said, I have one simple question for you: is Ganondorfs custom moves stronger than bayos specials? Since it is apparent that they arent, and also agree that Ganondorf stands little chance at nationals as it is (and EVERYONE AGREES WITH THIS INCLUDING YOU), then ganon should have those moves back, and it would give the game even more spice. The new dlc all really gave what was becoming a stale meta game new life. Now that we can imagine possibilities with customs doing that without fear of them being OP (remember, we will ban the few customs we agree are too much), and because of the presence of the new dlc, we can and should bring both miis and customs back into the fold!
 
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Legal. Full customization.

This shouldn't be something that even needs discussing.
Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean people should accept it without questions.

It is one thing to not be able to play your main char because he's banned. But not being able to play with their preferred set of custom moves ? I don't see any character that wouldn't be happy to have at least one of his custom moves available. 1111 is the default for every character and Mii players are the only one that are refusing it. And then you have the marginal Mii Brawler mains that want the right to import their small light weight stuff on every console.

No really, I don't think you understand how blurry the line is in this case and since it is impossible to satisfy everyone every single TO has to use his own judgment, so imposing your views to others and refusing the discussion isn't the best way to go (unless your are the organizer of a major tournament yourself, and even then you would be doing what you're accusing every TO of doing).



PS : personally the only thing I have against Miis is that in conjunction with every other DLC they turn the CSS into a gigantic mess and my OCD can't allow it.
 
A Mii's whole schtick is that they are customizable. A mii you can't customize is like a Peach who can't hover, or a Kirby with one jump: it's completely absurd. This is why their have their moves all unlocked and accessible up front. This is why they have different size and face options and nobody else does.

Banning custom Miis for being too custom is like banning Sonic for being too fast, or Pikachu for being too electric.
 
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IMO, the recent KTAR and mlg New Orleans handled miis pretty well with guest size and any move combination. I'd be down with more events at least trying it out.
 
I'm going to make this very simple to understand for everyone reading: with the 3 new dlc in the game and with what one could consider their powerful if not OP special movesets (talking cloud, corrin, and bayonetta) there is no excuse not only for customized miis to not be legal, but for custom moves in general to be banned as well. With the exception of a few moves that "break the game" (villager trip sapling and dk wind kong, and perhaps sonic hammer spin dash), or is just OP (pikachu heavy skull bash) there is NOT a single other custom move that one could consider better than anything bayo, corrin, or cloud have. Period. And anyone who addresses me or my argument without addressing the 3 new dlc is not arguing in good faith, I'm warning you in advance.

And as a dk main, I will happily agree to have wind kong and a few other custom moves from other characters BANNED so that characters can enjoy their customs again and make them viable against not only the top tiers but against the new dlc. Ganondorf needs his customs back and I'll do anything to let him and others get it back. I'm sure esam would agree to have heavy skull bash banned as well for the good of allowing customs moves to be returned. Anyone who abhors what I just said, I have one simple question for you: is Ganondorfs custom moves stronger than bayos specials? Since it is apparent that they arent, and also agree that Ganondorf stands little chance at nationals as it is (and EVERYONE AGREES WITH THIS INCLUDING YOU), then ganon should have those moves back, and it would give the game even more spice. The new dlc all really gave what was becoming a stale meta game new life. Now that we can imagine possibilities with customs doing that without fear of them being OP (remember, we will ban the few customs we agree are too much), and because of the presence of the new dlc, we can and should bring both miis and customs back into the fold!
Wind Kong is hardly busted (shouldn't be banned unless we want to coddle people who are unwilling to learn or adapt), as you can punish it on hit and airdodge out of it, never mind that it's a weaker recovery move [and other flaws it has]. Sheik's special moveset is probably better than Corrin's, especially if you factor in Gravity Grenade [more on that below]. I'm not going to bother arguing about Trip Sapling, but I definitely disagree that the move is broken. There are also custom moves that are better than multiple specials DLC have, although I assume you mean all 4 of their moves as a whole.

Heavy Skull Bash is incredibly strong, sure, but if we ban it, you'll have to remind me who beats Sheik in customs on again, cuz there's not many other good choices [or you can list them for me... Kirby?], and that would strike me as the point of legalizing them - to increase diversity.

These bans are also arbitrary - where do we draw the line on what's "too good"? As the article mentioned, bans must be discrete, enforceable, and warranted. You and someone else may agree that Heavy Skull Bash should be banned, but what about upper cutter? Pretty sure that thing kills OoS, can potentially be combo'd into, and makes Kirby's recovery a lot better. I would 100% expect to see someone advocate for that move being banned, even though I personally think banning it is ridiculous. The warrants for banning moves are a lot less clear-cut than you'd like to believe [and you lampshade this with your indication that hammer spin dash *might* be "too good"... you know darn well Sonic haters will say it is and Sonic mains who like it will say it's not, and we don't need people to get a persecution complex because one of their character's custom moves is banned]. Another move that would probably be controversial is Sheik's gravity grenade - it does only 2% but explodes almost instantly and combos into usmash, often sweetspotted, and it stage spikes quite efficiently. I know one person who thought if customs were moderated, Sheik's side+B 2 would be banned, even though most Sheik mains would call it nonsense, and this same problem would be repeated over numerous "too-good or not-too-good" moves (Twisting Fox, whatever the electricity Falcon Kick is called, and other moves that I might not expect to cause issues).

Banning customs selectively does nothing to fix the issue of customs not being legal, because at that point we are *clearly* artificially buffing and nerfing characters, and anyone who plays those characters would be quite right in feeling that they are being discriminated against because other people didn't like how good their character was. You seem to think agreeing on what should be banned will be easy - the opposite strikes me as *much* more likely.
 
I don't get why the fact that they are not on the CSS until you make one is an argument. I mean, until you unlock a character he is not on the CSS either, that's pretty much the same thing.
Unlike other characters they can also be turned off by erasing them. There's no sane way to keep Duck Hunt and Dark Pit off the roster since they challenge you after every match past 150 or so, meaning we can't effectively disable them in-game.
 
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Banning customs selectively does nothing to fix the issue of customs not being legal, because at that point we are *clearly* artificially buffing and nerfing characters, and anyone who plays those characters would be quite right in feeling that they are being discriminated against because other people didn't like how good their character was.
How are we artificially buffing and nerfing characters when the state we are "altering" them from is how they were when we start the game? If anything, it is the opposite. WE are the ones choosing what moves they have, WE are making aritifical changes to how they are played and the strategies used for them.

Again, it comes back to a note I made in the post about Miis - if I did my math right, there are 495 possible combinations PER CHARACTER. I am highly doubtful that any one player could actually adapt to them all, in the whole cast excluding DLC, and if it's down to that, doesn't it remove some of the skill needed to be successful? Wouldn't that hurt the point of Smash being a competitive game?

Customs are unlocked and implemented by us - not the games.

Edited for typos.
 
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To me, this looks exactly like the same argument as customs vs no customs. There are plenty of characters that would benefit from customs, especially Palutena, but she and everyone else are using the same default moveset: 1111M. Ganon can't magically be faster by adjusting his weight. Villager can't just camp out the opponent using the Counter Timber custom. If Miis are legal, the Mii players shouldn't be able to adjust the properties of their fighter just like everyone else. I'm all for Miis: that's three more characters on the roster, but they should set to be in a default state, aka the guest Miis.
I just don't see how this is an unpopular opinion. It makes it so that the Mii fighters are legal, gives them a default moveset, and makes tournament logistics so much easier.
 
Unlike other characters they can also be turned off by erasing them. There's no sane way to keep Duck Hunt and Dark Pit off the roster since they challenge you after every match past 150 or so, meaning we can't effectively disable them in-game.
It's far-fetched, you can also erase dlc characters from the memory and you won't have them anymore. It's not like a setting to turn them on/off at any time.
 
I disagree. I think they should be legal with 1111. Why should miis get to use custom moves while others do not? Simply to make them more viable? Then where do we draw the line on who is bad enough to be able to use what customs? We can have the customs discussion all over again, but that's a broader discussion than just miis. As long as its a non-customs tournament, miss should be 1111.
They are not custom moves. They are not custom moves. They are not custom moves. How many times does this need to be explained? They are not custom moves. They aren't even registered in the files as custom moves, and there is no default for the Mii fighters. 1111 is not a default, you have to make them have the moves they do, and making them have 1111 is stupid and ruins Mii fighters. Kirby doesn't work without Copy Ability, Peach doesn't work without floating. Mii fighters do not work without being able to use their moves.


To me, this looks exactly like the same argument as customs vs no customs. There are plenty of characters that would benefit from customs, especially Palutena, but she and everyone else are using the same default moveset: 1111M. Ganon can't magically be faster by adjusting his weight. Villager can't just camp out the opponent using the Counter Timber custom. If Miis are legal, the Mii players shouldn't be able to adjust the properties of their fighter just like everyone else. I'm all for Miis: that's three more characters on the roster, but they should set to be in a default state, aka the guest Miis.
I just don't see how this is an unpopular opinion. It makes it so that the Mii fighters are legal, gives them a default moveset, and makes tournament logistics so much easier.
It's been explained why that's a terrible way to go about it so many times, why do people ignore it? Read the posts above.
 
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It's far-fetched, you can also erase dlc characters from the memory and you won't have them anymore. It's not like a setting to turn them on/off at any time.
Unlike DLC fighters it can be done in-game and takes about ten seconds. They're harder to turn on then they are to turn off.
 
So? That literally means nothing. DLC characters are harder to buy than uninstall. It makes no difference.
I'm not even against Mii legality... But you have to admit that from a system standpoint they're easy to turn off. Objectively off is as valid a solution as on, such as time vs. stock, items vs. no items and so on.

You could just as easily make a case against DLC characters. Nobody really considers it because other fighters usually don't ban DLC, just like how they usually ban create-a-characters.
 
I don't get why they shouldn't be legal. they're not overpowered so, and pretty low tier if I recall. It can be a problem with having all their specials available, making them have more options than other characters and also making it more difficult fighting them since you might not know what to expect. But I still don't think it's a problem, even with all their specials they're far from top tier, and the argument that they might be a tough/janky matchup learning because of all the options makes no sense since they're like 50 characters in the game, so you still need to learn a lot of matchups anyway.
I think it makes complete sense to have them fully legalized, they're a playable character like any other.
 
I think i wouldnt fight so much for miis being allowed to use whatever custom move they wanted if it wasnt for the fact that they can use whatever custom moves they want with customs turned off. I get that smash is a game off tons of rules to make it competitve, but there is literally nothing toxic or anything to the compeititve enviorment by allowing miis to use whatever **** custom moves they want.

The only thing it does is making people who want to main miis happy, and people who dont consider them real characters upset. I can understand the entire thing with keeping them default, because small adjustments to weight and height can change alot with how the characters combo and work.

But **** let me keep the custom moves as the god damn game allows me to use whatever custom moves i want with miis with customs turned off, I would never fight as much for it if you had to turn customs on to actually use them.

****.

Also, isnt it funny how almost every poll in existance with a "free og ban miis" are always around 80% to free miis, and 20% to ban them and still they are almost always illegal everywhere?

Edit: At the events with whatever customs you want, default size. They have never proven to be a problem at all. Just make that the standard so you can make mii mains happy at least.
 
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Logging in for the first time in probably half a year or so, because this is a matter I really want to share my opinion on. And excuse, this might end up a bit long.

First things first, I think this article is getting ahead of itself. Like, WAY ahead of itself. The most important urgent matter right now is: 'Do we legalize Mii Fighters, at least at a basic level'? 'How' they should be implemented is a secondary matter that should be explored if/when we can agree that Mii's should at least be legalized on a basic level. And to answer that first question, looking at the poll, at the discussion here and comments elsewhere, I estimate that this has to be a resounding yes. Overwhelming support for legalization. Granted, this poll completely dismisses the idea of a compromise, but I feel the support would be even greater if it were present than what we now already see under 'full legalization'.

So on that note, I think completely banning Mii Fighters is not an option at all, and it's the one option I absolutely could not agree with myself, either. At a basic level, I think Mii Fighters are fighters just as much as the rest of the cast. I don't see absence from the default CSS as an argument, especially with unlockable characters and DLC in mind. I see nothing desirable about a full Mii Fighter ban.


So then we arrive at the secondary discussion. How much do we legalize Mii Fighters? I myself firmly believe we should just go with 1111 guest Mii Fighters. At least for the time being. Stick to standards as much as possible, avoid inconsistency in gameplay and ruleset. Expansion on Mii legality is something that I believe should be explored later down the line, not immediately, especially since that matter is not nearly as pressing right now as wether or not Mii's should be legal in the first place.

Now for the record, if full Mii legalization does end up happening, I could live with that, but I still don't quite agree with it, not at this stage. You could argue that custom moves are Mii Fighters gimmick, and that's not entirely wrong, I recognize Mii Fighters were largely developed with them in mind.

But on the flipside, you have to realize customization is not unique to Mii Fighters, it's not really 'their' own thing. As such, I don't think you could reasonably allow Mii Fighters to use their custom moves, yet deny the rest of the cast access to them. (And a full-customs meta doesn't appear to be a possibility at this point in time.) As someone stated before, that's a double standard. We shouldn't just be giving characters special treatment based on some arbitrary distinction. No, I don't think the files not calling them customs is a valid argument, I don't see why it would be. Same with not having to press the customs button. As far as I'm concerned, Mii Fighters 1111 should be no different from, say, Mario 1111. (And technically they were also created in mind with equipment, but I think we all know why we don't run equipment...)

And then the biggest issue I have with size/weight changing is simply inconsistency in gameplay and ruleset. Even small changes can negate certain knowledge you have of these characters, because they alter the attributes of these characters, and with that the matchup as a whole. That on top of the fact that you have to go into yet another discussion on wether we should allow all weight/size value combinations (which would create greater inconsistency when we start using size/weight values other than 0, 50 or 100) or a set of specific, predetermined combinations (and which ones). On that note, weight/size is for me a greater issue than customs allowed or not.

Finally, I really don't think viability matters here, as their seemingly lacking viability isn't argument for allowing customs (otherwise, several other characters would like to have a word), and at the same time I think we've also seen enough to say that even with full customization no customized Mii Fighter would be so good as to warrant a ban. So I'd like to ask people to stop bringing up Mii Fighter viability as an argument on either side.


So again, I think that we should just run 1111 guest Mii Fighters for the sake of consistency, then experiment and explore further customization later down the line. But if we really can't do that for some reason, then AT LEAST rule out banning them, because that's honestly just ridiculous and I'm convinced that it's the least-supported option.
 
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How are we artificially buffing and nerfing characters when the state we are "altering" them from is how they were when we start the game? If anything, it is the opposite. WE are the ones choosing what moves they have, WE are making aritifical changes to how they are played and the strategies used for them.

Again, it comes back to a note I made in the post about Miis - if I did my math right, there are 495 possible combinations PER CHARACTER. I am highly doubtful that any one player could actually adapt to them all, in the whole cast excluding DLC, and if it's down to that, doesn't it remove some of the skill needed to be successful? Wouldn't that hurt the point of Smash being a competitive game?

Customs are unlocked and implemented by us - not the games.

Edited for typos.
I'm ... not clear what you're arguing for or against here... but I'll try to piecemeal it out I guess?

My post was stating that banning only specific custom moves is a bad decision [either put the customs button on and let it rock, or leave the customs button off, but nothing in between]. Stating that Hammer Spin Dash should be legal but Heavy Skull Bash should be banned is little more than nerfing Pikachu via the ruleset, which Pikachu mains would be 100% justified in being upset about [if Mario Pika is even now (or favors Mario, whatever you think), why does Mario get buffs and not Pika? Clearly the ruleset doesn't like Pikachu users!] (or something like that, the argument could take a variety of forms).

"When we start the game" would suggest we shouldn't use Duck Hunt as a stage (or half the legal stages in Melee). I don't think how the game looks when it's started is a great argument for or against something.

You also have fallacious logic - 495 Mii combinations =/= 495 good Mii combinations or Miis with unique advantages and disadvantages against over each other. Mii Smaller is almost certainly the best version of Mii Brawler, and changing his moves may slightly change damage and percentage, but increasing his size or weight does little except fractionally add damage and remove important combos.

If you understand how to fight the best Miis, you'll understand naturally how to fight the bads ones too - it's just like fighting the good versions, except they're slower, larger, and heavier, aka generally easier to combo [barring weight dependent throws], mostly easier to space out, and you can worry about less about their combo potential.

Similarly, 3*3*3*3 = 64 possible custom sets, but even if every custom set was legal, you wouldn't need to learn how to fight all of Pikachu's custom moves (or any character for that matter) as long as you have a basic understanding of what each one does - you'd only need to learn how to fight Pikachu [and by extension, his best set 1311 or 2311, depending on who you ask), then understand how to deal with the inferior moves - but if you know how to handle all 12 moves [and most of them suck], the 2311 MU is definitely not an entirely different MU from the 2313 MU, and fighting a 25:40 Mii is not fundamentally different from a 26:42 Mii. Pretending otherwise is simply disingenuous.
 
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I'm ... not clear what you're arguing for or against here... but I'll try to piecemeal it out I guess?

My post was stating that banning only specific custom moves is a bad decision [either put the customs button on and let it rock, or leave the customs button off, but nothing in between]. Stating that Hammer Spin Dash should be legal but Heavy Skull Bash should be banned is little more than nerfing Pikachu via the ruleset, which Pikachu mains would be 100% justified in being upset about [if Mario Pika is even now (or favors Mario, whatever you think), why does Mario get buffs and not Pika? Clearly the ruleset doesn't like Pikachu users!] (or something like that, the argument could take a variety of forms).

"When we start the game" would suggest we shouldn't use Duck Hunt as a stage (or half the legal stages in Melee). I don't think how the game looks when it's started is a great argument for or against something.

You also have fallacious logic - 495 Mii combinations =/= 495 good Mii combinations or Miis with unique advantages and disadvantages against over each other. Mii Smaller is almost certainly the best version of Mii Brawler, and changing his moves may slightly change damage and percentage, but increasing his size or weight does little except fractionally add damage and remove important combos.

If you understand how to fight the best Miis, you'll understand naturally how to fight the bads ones too - it's just like fighting the good versions, except they're slower, larger, and heavier, aka generally easier to combo [barring weight dependent throws], mostly easier to space out, and you can worry about less about their combo potential.

Similarly, 3*3*3*3 = 64 possible custom sets, but even if every custom set was legal, you wouldn't need to learn how to fight all of Pikachu's custom moves (or any character for that matter) as long as you have a basic understanding of what each one does - you'd only need to learn how to fight Pikachu [and by extension, his best set 1311 or 2311, depending on who you ask), then understand how to deal with the inferior moves - but if you know how to handle all 12 moves [and most of them suck], the 2311 MU is definitely not an entirely different MU from the 2313 MU, and fighting a 25:40 Mii is not fundamentally different from a 26:42 Mii. Pretending otherwise is simply disingenuous.
I figured your post was why customs in general should be included/should not be banned, which is what I based my logic on. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Regarding "when the game starts up," we can't alter the Duck Hunt stage like we can alter custom fighters. That's hardly a good rebuttal when I'm talking about the characters in the game, which can be altered. Unlockable characters and DLC characters DO come in a 'vanilla' form before you can start messing with their specials, if you can.
 
Just chipping in to mention: Another solution I've seen is to have not one, but just a small set of legal movesets for each class of Mii fighter. That way there's a little more of that choice available, but not so much as to brush up against the potential issues with full moveset customization that people have brought up.
 
I'm a brawler main and the ban/1111 only rules have drastically hindered my drive to improve at smash. I wish that miis were legal, but I know that there's too much of an opposition to really do much of anything.
 
The answer to whether or not Miis should be legalized is pretty obvious. I'd say to at least have a Small, Medium, and Large Mii setup on your Wii U if it's really that big of an issue (We also have QR codes to give out before a tourney for 3DS advocates, and they would probably be minimum or maximum height/weight settings anyways.)...

As for Palutena, I'd really like to see her Customs get explored more. I'm pretty sure the only reason she uses the 1111 moveset is that she doesn't NEED to load a "custom" set before play, like a created Mii would have anyways. She's also a starting fighter and a standalone character, so it's obvious that she'd get a default moveset to use. Kirby also has voice clips for using all 3 of her Standard Specials and all of her stuff is unlocked with a clean save, so you can probably wrap your head around the idea that she has a 1111 set because she /had/ to have one by release...

Or my ideas are dumb, who knows?
 
And by the way 1/1/1/1 is the default. Because when you create a Mii that's the moves they have. You have to actually change them to get something besides 1/1/1/1. Seriously, this whole debate on how "Miis have no defaults because they start in the custom menu" is ridiculous. Being in the custom menu doesn't change their moves, changing their moves changes their moves. Their default is 1/1/1/1 just like every other character in this video game, people just need to deal with that.
Everything has a starting point. You really need the game to randomize which customs your Mii's move select menu starts on every time (which just makes creating them more annoying)? How about we name each move with symbols so nothing's #1? Miis are very clearly not designed to be used with the 1111 moveset as a default. If they were, they would have gotten Palutena's treatment, and she's the only one that shares the trait of having her customs available immediately with Miis.

This kind of limit is just too arbitrary. If you want a good baseline for what to disable when Customs are off, try going with the "Customs OFF" setting and what THAT says about using certain moves...


Or the devs could just tell us why Palutena and Miis have their 1111 default sets, that would be nice.
 
Or the devs could just tell us why Palutena and Miis have their 1111 default sets, that would be nice.
Palutena's default moveset is probably the best for FFAs. Warp is her best Uspecial, no question. LW is pretty terrible in FFAs and CF is just a poor man's counter. AM and SS throw her right into danger and she already has Warp for getting around. EF may be better then AR but not by much if at all.

Default Miis don't work nearly as well no matter how you play, though.
 
Palutena's default moveset is probably the best for FFAs. Warp is her best Uspecial, no question. LW is pretty terrible in FFAs and CF is just a poor man's counter. AM and SS throw her right into danger and she already has Warp for getting around. EF may be better then AR but not by much if at all.

Default Miis don't work nearly as well no matter how you play, though.
Oh, I absolutely think that they put thought into Palutena's final 1111 moveset, I'd just like to hear what they think about using other sets, just on her, since they clearly put effort into giving her diverse customs.

Miis on the other hand, I get a less thought-out vibe from, though, it's less noticeable since you can use any specials all the time.

I'd just like the devs to say something on those, since our current stance on the matter, as a community, for ruling it (at least for Miis) is about as unanimous as what our favorite ice cream flavor is...
 
As much as I like mii, using the argument that mii moves aren't custom moves [and technical they aren't according the game ] is a borderline pointless argument for Mii legality.

It's a CaC. It's entirely custom, down to the entire concept of the character. Come on guys.
 
As much as I like mii, using the argument that mii moves aren't custom moves [and technical they aren't according the game ] is a borderline pointless argument for Mii legality.

It's a CaC. It's entirely custom, down to the entire concept of the character. Come on guys.
Don't you think that the character being BASED around customization gives them a little more justification to use the other moves, at least?

I'm not saying that we should go all out, allow every custom aspect, legalize equipment, but I'm pretty much forced to learn how every DLC character works for tourneys, regardless of whether or not I have the money to get them, so I don't think learning character weights and speed for 9 sets (if we use SM&L) and 36 specials is THAT taxing in the grand scheme of things...
 
On the topic of Mii sizes, I think they should definitely be restricted to the Guest Miis. Creating different sized Miis is a task that requires you to LEAVE THE ENTIRE GAME and boot up the Mii Maker. Logistical nightmare. Especially given how frequently Wii U gamepads die over the course of tournaments. Lets keep the Mii customisation in-game, thanks.
 
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I don't see a reason why Miis should be banned. Why would you ban a bad character? If someone wants to use them, let them! It's not like they are broken like meta Knight in Brawl. (PS: Bad by teir list standards
 
I don't think Miis not being on the CSS until you create one means anything. It's completely arbitrary. This is like saying name tags should not be used because they are not there by default. If the point of this is to say "they aren't REALLY characters on the roster", then that's very off. They have the same trophy variations other characters get. They have clear screens and victory movies. They have amiibo figures. And most importantly, they took development time like any other unique fighter.

I still don't see why people can't just, at the least, settle on using 1111 movesets and a default Mii appearance. That would be a compromise at least. It's not what I truly want to see but it's better than nothing.
I think that it just means that a 100% ban is possible, not saying that miis aren't normal characters. But saying that they aren't real characters because you have to do something to get them makes every unlockable character not a real character. I agree that there is no reason to ban mii fighters, and if their full movesets aren't considered custom moves and they aren't broken/make the game less competitive, I don't see why full movesets can't be allowed
 
I've compiled a list of some common questions against allowing Miis to use specials, along with answers. Feel free to reply, but don't be rude. That's not necessary.

It's not fair they get more specials than I do!
Do they? Sure, they can choose the ones they like best, but how many do they use in one fight? One for each direction. That's -- wait for it -- four! The same amount as every other character.

They take too long to set up!
In a major tournament setting, it's negligible time. Anything smaller is also negligible. Even if you fumble on the menus like I do, it takes no more than 30 seconds to set up a guest Mii and get back to the CSS.

But there's so many sets to choose from! How can I learn what all those specials do?
Since some sets would become more popular than others, you would be able to know exactly how each one plays and their differences. Odds are a few specials wouldn't see any use at all (think Stealth Burst or Head-on Assault). Losing to a move you didn't prepare to fight isn't the Mii player's fault, the same way losing to any other move goes. It's really not an excuse, especially with all the resources available to study from -- in fact, you're using one of those resources right now!

But the sets are nearly the same! Does it matter what you have in every slot?
The difference between 1331, 1332 and 1333 swordie is Counter vs Mario's Cape vs. Falcon Kick. It's a big difference. This can be said for every slot for every Mii.

They can just switch sets between matches? What kinda dumb stuff is that?
You can go from any character to any other character when permitted, such as after a loss. A Pit main can switch to Dark Pit, then switch back to regular Pit. A ZSS main can switch to Diddy and back. Counterpicking characters between matches is nothing new, and changing a Mii set as a CP is the same principles.

Why do they get equipment and I don't?
Equipment, no matter what kind it is, does nothing unless customs are turned on. And then you do get it, get it?

But sizes, man! How the heck do those work?
Honestly, as much as sizes make every Mii way better, most Mii mains are fine with guest size. It's the only aspect of Mii making that actually has a reason not to be allowed, being that you have to either own a 3DS or enter Mii Maker to do them. Otherwise, the six guest Miis are plenty good.

How do we know these rules will work?
Because we've seen them work. Europe commonly has guest size, any special and hasn't had a problem. KTAR has guest size, any special and hasn't had a problem. Mii mains winning with their characters isn't a problem.

But Helicopter Kick is so br---
No. It's far from broken. Learn to DI. If you DI towards Brawler's back out of down throw, Heli won't connect properly. Then you're out of the golden percent range and Brawler struggles to kill. Running to ledge is also a poor idea for a horizontal killmove.

B-but they get to wear silly hats! Where's my silly hat?
Obviously you can't put hats and costumes on your Mii at a major, which doesn't matter either way since they're just decorations.
Valid point.


That's all I have to say on the matter. Again, if you disagree and can present an argument not already covered, I'm all ears. Just remember to be polite, this is a discussion, not a diss track.
 
Honestly the best way to go is one standardized set. Giving them full access to their alternate specials is too much like customs. 1111 is the most practical option, good luck getting people to agree on a set arbitrarily decided on by a few TOs. Or we could just get 4BR to tell us what to do :p
 
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