• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Editorial: Evo and Mii Legality

Should Miis be able to use all of their moves, or be completely banned?

  • Legalize

    Votes: 422 79.9%
  • Banned

    Votes: 106 20.1%

  • Total voters
    528
From the mouth of Mr. Wizard himself: within the next week, Evo organizer Joey Cuellar will be discussing the ruleset with Bear, one of the tournament organizers of Genesis 3, and D1, one of the most prolific commentators in Smash history. With this happening, a debate has risen yet again over the legality of three characters within Smash 4: the Mii Fighters.

Before continuing on, I shall admit a slight bias: I enjoy using Mii Swordfighter in Smash 4. However, I want to offer an unbiased look at how rulesets have been historically decided within Smash and other fighting game communities and use this to facilitate discussion on how Miis should be handled within the game.


David Sirlin's Play to Win is one of the most influential written pieces for competitive gaming. Having an extensive resume in game design, David Sirlin knows his stuff. The Play to Win series is available absolutely free online for those who want to read it, but the piece we will be focusing on here is called What Should Be Banned?

Let's look at the criteria of a ban. To quote him directly, "A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted." The first one is fairly obvious; if you want to ban something, you have to be able to enforce it. Second, the thing to be banned must be, to quote Sirlin again, "able to be 'completely defined.'"

Taking a quick jaunt back to the days of Brawl, there was a time when the stage Pirate Ship was legal. The stage had an issue where players could stall in the water and put an opponent in a very disadvantaged position if they tried to approach. There was no good way to simply ban the tactic: what if a player fell into the water innocently? How long could you stay there before it was considered stalling? There was no way to make the rule discrete. As the strategy was very strong, a ban on the stage was warranted, and thus the stage left the competitive spectrum.

Let's look to timers as another example. I've previously written an entire piece on the history of timers in Smash, which is a good primer on why we use stocks or even have a timer at all, so consider reading it. We chose to use stocks and a timer as our rules to make the game playable competitively at the best level.

This goes for stages as well. We all know that stages like Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Brinstar, and Green Greens were once commonly legal within Melee but aren't any longer. It was found within the mechanics of Melee that these stages had issues where they provided extreme advantages to certain characters, so their ban was warranted to have a good competitive game. When Brawl came around, all of those stages listed above were retested for legality with all but Corneria actually being fully legal for quite some time. They too eventually were found to give too powerful an advantage with Meta Knight legal and thus met the ban hammer. Come Smash 4, Corneria and Brinstar were tested YET AGAIN to be sure that with the new mechanics they would still warrant a ban. Some 3DS tournaments still run with Brinstar legal. We only subtract as little as possible, change as little as physically possible to find the proper ruleset for a game.


The Original Smash 4 Character Select Screen

Now we come to Miis. Take a look at that character select screen above. Notice anything interesting about it? There are no Miis available. Miis do not show up as selectable characters until one has already been created. So we are at a unique impasse: we must decide whether, like changing the stock count, adding a timer, and turning on team attack in doubles, we should even have Miis in the first place.

Many who watch the game know and have heard the arguments for Miis being legal: Miis can use all their moves even with customs off. Miis have not caused an issue at any major tournament. They are not overpowered. Miis at a default size take less time to make than it takes to set up control schemes.

These things are not the real issues. By going into the customization menu to use Miis in the first place, we are accepting that having Miis legal adds enough to the game competitively to warrant us doing so. When we then surgically limit them to only their first moves, it directly contrasts with this philosophy.

George Santayana was correct: "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." In Brawl, Meta Knight was kept legal by many surgical rules. This caused much tension and argument within the Smash community. Today, the same is currently being done with Miis, except it is being done to keep them from playing at full potential. The same tensions are already rising.

So, should Miis be legal at EVO 2016, or should they be banned entirely? What is the best course of action moving forward? That I do not not have an answer to. However, I can say that we have only two options: ban Miis altogether, or allow them their full moveset.

This is an adaptation of the piece "Miis Should Be 100% Legal Or 100% Banned", which was also written by this author. This piece is purely the opinion of its author and does not reflect the position of Smashboards or its affiliates.
 

Comments

This "restricted to the same standards as everyone else" doesn't make sense.
You can apply that to so much things.
We have put items off. We are still allowing characters who spawn items (even the very one's we turned off!) so what should this "to the same standard as everyone else" mean?
The standard is "we allow everything the CSS has to offer and don't put out-of-game rules on it" and Mii's with all moves are as selectable as Diddy Kong.

If someone doesn't know: Equipment is deactivated with "Customs: off" even with Mii's. Only their moves work.
The item example has been tried and never holds up in these arguments because you have to ignore context for it to work.

We ban items for a number of justifiable and demonstrable reasons such as over-centralizing gameplay, and the deconstructing of neutral with overtuned spawns.

We ban customs primarily for preference. Logistics can be argued to an extent, but with so many examples of large and local tournaments alike being able to run the CMSP it's a questionable point and brings up the Palutena counter argument.

If we ban customs because we don't like them in competitive play there's no reason we should also allow Miis or Palutena regardless of any inflated logistics issues to use theirs.

While I agree that having Miis legal and fully customizable (including height/weight) is the logical thing to do, I only believe this because I don't think specials of any nature have shown themselves to be so detrimental to competitive play that they warrant bans.
 
Even ESAM now is doing it, and he said he wants them banned just so Mii Fighters mains stop complaining.
If I remember correctly, Zero did this too.
Wasn't it a battle between, Dapuffstar(?) and Zero, where Zero almost lost to Dapuff's Mii Brawler.

And after Zero barely managed to win.
Zero went to a Twitter rage about how Brawler was "OP" and "ridiculous".
Like the Mii Brawlers were somehow unbeatable or something, so they needed to be banned.

It seems all of the high-tournament players and even TO's are so stuck on making Smash Bros 4, the game they want it to be.

So in short, those people, do not care about Smash Bros at all.
All they care about is money.

If new characters or all the custom moves every character has is used/allowed. They will fight tooth and nail to remove them.

They see it as more obstacles to their money, and not one that can grow SSB4's meta game.
They will try to stop it, for their own money and pride.
 
I personally need to change L to jump, R to special, X to shield, and C-Stick to attack. I'll even have to erase an existing name of the tag list is full.
I'm super curious! How come? Those controls sound super different.
 
I'm super curious! How come? Those controls sound super different.
Ah sure! Attack stick is to prevent slowed movements in the air. That and ZSS has good tilts.

R is special for neutral b wave bouncing. If you are in the air moving right, hit left on the attack-c-stick on the same frame as you hit R for special. You should wave bounce backwards.

X is shield for faster and more accurate shielding. I don't know if the L and R triggers shield with any input pressure, but I like X better.

Finally, L as jump helps me do out of shield options without tap jump. Press and hold up then L then R to get up B out of shield in this scheme. L to jump also helps with the ZSS up air combos. They are harder than they look and require following DI. With L to jump, I can keep my left hand on the control stick, managing DI without having to move to the up position, and my right hand on the c stick for hitting the up airs.

And that's about it!
 
Don't you think that the character being BASED around customization gives them a little more justification to use the other moves, at least?

I'm not saying that we should go all out, allow every custom aspect, legalize equipment, but I'm pretty much forced to learn how every DLC character works for tourneys, regardless of whether or not I have the money to get them, so I don't think learning character weights and speed for 9 sets (if we use SM&L) and 36 specials is THAT taxing in the grand scheme of things...
"Don't you think that the character being BASED around customization gives them a little more justification to use the other moves, at least?"

Yes, that's why I'm all for either "full" legalization or none personally, but my point was that not a valid reason to legalize mii fighters or to ban them.
 
I know this isn't completely on-topic, but can I just say that Smash 4 feels designed not necessarily to please both casuals and competitors, but to make competitive Smashers more casual?
  • For Glory and Tourney are not as sophisticated as ranked modes in other games. For Glory only allows Final Destination which while balanced has its share of problems that a more broad list of stages would fix or at least mitigate, and a player's only sense of performance is their W-L record, which is easy to skew and thus inaccurate. Tourneys that aren't player-created FFAs are restricted to 3 minute matches, nowhere near enough time for a two-stock match without a surplus of camping.
  • Character customization is horribly inconsistent in terms of both balance and menu organization - Miis can use customs without the Customs ON button but aren't available without being created first, Palutena gets hers from the get go but needs Customs ON to use them, unlocking custom moves takes lots of time and/or money, and equipment, a mechanic that can turn every character into a game breaker, has been lumped in the same category in what I can only see as a half-baked attempt to deter competitive play.
  • Characters are more rigorously balanced than in other installments, but Smash 4 also has some of the most overpowered items in the series' history, such as the Gust Bellows and Cucco (on top of a gimmick which has already been deemed as unbalanced and broken).
  • Stages that are so close to being viable yet have that one gimmick that forces them to be banned are in the same list as stages that are so ridiculously over the top that nobody in their right mind would deem them balanced even in the most casual of play.
  • Many mechanics that casuals deemed OP like chaingrabs, edgehogging, and planking were taken out. In their place, reworked ledges and rage were added to make comebacks easier to do, a concept that generally goes against competitive philosophy (one of several reasons why final smashes remained banned even after their general nerf from Brawl).
I realize this doesn't exactly fit the topic at hand, but if Smash 4 was designed to bring competitive Smashers to a more casual level of play and thought, it (fortunately or otherwise) did a fantastic job, especially looking at the attitudes I've seen and heard of from some top-level Smashers.

Just some food for thought.
 
b2jammer b2jammer

I don't necessarily agree with everything in your list, but you raise some very interesting points. It's definitely food for thought.
Let's remember that Sakurai, at the end of the day, made a game to appeal to the widest audience on the Nintendo systems, which, let's face it, wasn't the hardcore competitive gamer.

I still believe he tried to make a balance however, to appeal to both sides.
 
On the topic of Mii sizes, I think they should definitely be restricted to the Guest Miis. Creating different sized Miis is a task that requires you to LEAVE THE ENTIRE GAME and boot up the Mii Maker. Logistical nightmare. Especially given how frequently Wii U gamepads die over the course of tournaments. Lets keep the Mii customisation in-game, thanks.
Or, ya could just have everyone who wants Miis make them before the tournament.
 
The thing about miis is that nobody really mains them. Why are you banning a character that's barely existent? That's just stupid. They all have traits any other character has like a slot on the roster and a trophy. To me, all miis regardless should be legal as long as its a default weight.
 
Top Bottom