Editorial: Evo and Mii Legality

From the mouth of Mr. Wizard himself: within the next week, Evo organizer Joey Cuellar will be discussing the ruleset with Bear, one of the tournament organizers of Genesis 3, and D1, one of the most prolific commentators in Smash history. With this happening, a debate has risen yet again over the legality of three characters within Smash 4: the Mii Fighters.

Before continuing on, I shall admit a slight bias: I enjoy using Mii Swordfighter in Smash 4. However, I want to offer an unbiased look at how rulesets have been historically decided within Smash and other fighting game communities and use this to facilitate discussion on how Miis should be handled within the game.

David Sirlin's Play to Win is one of the most influential written pieces for competitive gaming. Having an extensive resume in game design, David Sirlin knows his stuff. The Play to Win series is available absolutely free online for those who want to read it, but the piece we will be focusing on here is called What Should Be Banned?

Let's look at the criteria of a ban. To quote him directly, "A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted." The first one is fairly obvious; if you want to ban something, you have to be able to enforce it. Second, the thing to be banned must be, to quote Sirlin again, "able to be 'completely defined.'"

Taking a quick jaunt back to the days of Brawl, there was a time when the stage Pirate Ship was legal. The stage had an issue where players could stall in the water and put an opponent in a very disadvantaged position if they tried to approach. There was no good way to simply ban the tactic: what if a player fell into the water innocently? How long could you stay there before it was considered stalling? There was no way to make the rule discrete. As the strategy was very strong, a ban on the stage was warranted, and thus the stage left the competitive spectrum.

Let's look to timers as another example. I've previously written an entire piece on the history of timers in Smash, which is a good primer on why we use stocks or even have a timer at all, so consider reading it. We chose to use stocks and a timer as our rules to make the game playable competitively at the best level.

This goes for stages as well. We all know that stages like Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Brinstar, and Green Greens were once commonly legal within Melee but aren't any longer. It was found within the mechanics of Melee that these stages had issues where they provided extreme advantages to certain characters, so their ban was warranted to have a good competitive game. When Brawl came around, all of those stages listed above were retested for legality with all but Corneria actually being fully legal for quite some time. They too eventually were found to give too powerful an advantage with Meta Knight legal and thus met the ban hammer. Come Smash 4, Corneria and Brinstar were tested YET AGAIN to be sure that with the new mechanics they would still warrant a ban. Some 3DS tournaments still run with Brinstar legal. We only subtract as little as possible, change as little as physically possible to find the proper ruleset for a game.

The Original Smash 4 Character Select Screen​

Now we come to Miis. Take a look at that character select screen above. Notice anything interesting about it? There are no Miis available. Miis do not show up as selectable characters until one has already been created. So we are at a unique impasse: we must decide whether, like changing the stock count, adding a timer, and turning on team attack in doubles, we should even have Miis in the first place.

Many who watch the game know and have heard the arguments for Miis being legal: Miis can use all their moves even with customs off. Miis have not caused an issue at any major tournament. They are not overpowered. Miis at a default size take less time to make than it takes to set up control schemes.

These things are not the real issues. By going into the customization menu to use Miis in the first place, we are accepting that having Miis legal adds enough to the game competitively to warrant us doing so. When we then surgically limit them to only their first moves, it directly contrasts with this philosophy.

George Santayana was correct: "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." In Brawl, Meta Knight was kept legal by many surgical rules. This caused much tension and argument within the Smash community. Today, the same is currently being done with Miis, except it is being done to keep them from playing at full potential. The same tensions are already rising.

So, should Miis be legal at EVO 2016, or should they be banned entirely? What is the best course of action moving forward? That I do not not have an answer to. However, I can say that we have only two options: ban Miis altogether, or allow them their full moveset.

This is an adaptation of the piece "Miis Should Be 100% Legal Or 100% Banned", which was also written by this author. This piece is purely the opinion of its author and does not reflect the position of Smashboards or its affiliates.

 

I don't think Miis not being on the CSS until you create one means anything. It's completely arbitrary. This is like saying name tags should not be used because they are not there by default. If the point of this is to say "they aren't REALLY characters on the roster", then that's very off. They have the same trophy variations other characters get. They have clear screens and victory movies. They have amiibo figures. And most importantly, they took development time like any other unique fighter.

I still don't see why people can't just, at the least, settle on using 1111 movesets and a default Mii appearance. That would be a compromise at least. It's not what I truly want to see but it's better than nothing.

 

It bugs Mii that Miis aren't legal everywhere.















(° ͜ʖ °)

 

Really!? I love Mii Gunner! It should be mii 1111 only!

 

This is like saying name tags should not be used because they are not there by default.

To be fair, the same rule applies: we allow them to be added to the game as we deem it improves gameplay. It's why we changed to stocks, added a timer... all that. The idea is that Miis shouldn't be treated differently in procedure.

 

Did the people saying "why can't we just do 1111?" even read this article? It's because there is no reason to draw that arbitrary line.

 

Of all the things, Miis are the biggest problem. It's plain stupid, they are not broken. Possibly Piston Punch has great killing potential and punishing power, and Helicopter Kick as a devastating combo finisher. But again, no ways overpowered, just better than 1111.

The one thing I don't agree is with countering with sets, they should limit 1 moveset per set. Other than that, are in no way breaking the game, people getting pissed off because they can use specials are egotistic, I have never seen dominated Mii legal majors, heck not even a difference between non-legal Mii tournaments, because just a handful of people play them.

 

Legal. Full customization.

This shouldn't be something that even needs discussing.

 

I didn't want to be the first guy to start talking about this in the comments, but Miis should be fine. I couldn't care if they were 1111 or 1234 or 8675309, its all about the player's skill showing off that character. If there ends up being some major problems like stupid early kills or glitches then we know better not to bring them back. Last Evo showed us that customs were bad in the competitive field, so this year they're gone (hopefully). All I know is that this Evo is going to be intersting since 5.99 will get you a trophy and twitter salt.

 

To be fair, the same rule applies: we allow them to be added to the game as we deem it improves gameplay. It's why we changed to stocks, added a timer... all that. The idea is that Miis shouldn't be treated differently in procedure.

Well if controller customisation is deemed as improving gameplay, I don't see why easily balanced and controllable customisable Miis isn't, especially since they may legit be a player's best character, like how some people prefer Nunchuck controls (that are further customisable) despite it not being the obvious pick for competitive Smash.

 

Well if controller customisation is deemed as improving gameplay, I don't see why easily balanced and controllable customisable Miis isn't, especially since they may legit be a player's best character, like how some people prefer Nunchuck controls (that are further customisable) despite it not being the obvious pick for competitive Smash.

That's a great point to be made! But I know folks anti-mii would have their own arguments, so I'll try not to play devils advocate as I agree with you.

 

Miis not being on the CSS by default is the same reason several other characters aren't on the CSS by default. You have to unlock them, and their unlock condition happens to be looking at a certain menu.

Similar to all DLC character's unlock conditions being looking at a certain menu followed by a monetary transaction.

The question for Miis isn't really an all-or-nothing. It's a question of how Mii is defined as "a character": 1111 vs all moves.

-DD

 

If there ends up being some major problems like stupid early kills or glitches then we know better not to bring them back.

So you're saying...

they shouldn't be banned, unless they're broken...

how is it more people don't think like this

 

Any moveset is fine. None are broken.

I'd argue the same about Palutena as well. Her custom moves are unlocked with the game, and they only take as long as the Miis to set up. She's not insanely broken with any of her customs either, so there's no reason not to allow her custom moves.

 

I have the same philosophy with the 2 stocks vs 3 stocks dilemma: the entire community should stick to one ruleset. Using more than one ruleset fragments the scene which is never good when you want to keep your player-base united.

 

I've talked with others about this before and I firmly believe that Mii's should be allowed as playable characters in a tournament setting. This honestly shouldn't be a huge argument as Mii's have no specific advantage over characters other than customization. Though keep in mind Mii mains are likely to only use what's best for the character. So don't expect to face a 3132 Mii first round then a 1312 second round. All in all, Mii's should have been kept legal before, though I suppose it's best that we are trying to fix that now.

 

Any moveset is fine. None are broken.

I'd argue the same about Palutena as well. Her custom moves are unlocked with the game, and they only take as long as the Miis to set up. She's not insanely broken with any of her customs either, so there's no reason not to allow her custom moves.

You have a point, but lightweight is controversial. It's fixed now, course.

 

Any moveset is fine. None are broken.

I'd argue the same about Palutena as well. Her custom moves are unlocked with the game, and they only take as long as the Miis to set up. She's not insanely broken with any of her customs either, so there's no reason not to allow her custom moves.

Allowing Palutena to use her custom moves requires you to voluntarily turn customs on, which turns the entire discussion into a hellhole of "if she can actually pick a non-equipment set from the custom selection screen, why can't DK/Villager". Saying that it's because she's "not made viable" solely by customs will get you a ton of arguments thrown into you about how arbitrary that affirmation is.

 

Saying Mii Fighters should be banned is like saying DLC Fighters should be banned the first month after their release just because nobody knows how to play against them yet. It's not like Mii Fighters are overpowered. If you look at the most recent tier list, they are bottom tier. But, only the 1111 setup should be allowed because they aren't allowing customs this year(hopefully). Please no customs.

 

But what's wrong with the middleground option of having them legal as 1111 movesets? This way, you don't need to set up a community effort detailing what Mii sets have to exist based on player input, and all of the prep time is before the tournament starts, not during as people import their characters. You get the preferable scenario of not banning anything, while sidestepping every major issue and complaint linked to custom moves.

If people really think total ban or all moves are the only two options, then we'll never come to a consensus.

 

I like the comparison that's brought up between custom controls and Mii moves. I personally need to change L to jump, R to special, X to shield, and C-Stick to attack. I'll even have to erase an existing name of the tag list is full.

Realistically speaking, I'd probably take more time doing that than a Mii user with standard controls.

Methodologically speaking, the bigger hurtle would have been earning customs... If Mii fighters needed them to be unlocked.

So, while I don't use any of them, I don't see a reason to ban them. As a community we are seriously considering 3-Stocks, so time isn't a good argument, and none of them will be more broken than Bayonetta, so use shouldn't be an argument either.

Here's hoping fully accessible Miis get their time in the super-international spotlight.

 

Miis not being on the CSS by default is the same reason several other characters aren't on the CSS by default. You have to unlock them, and their unlock condition happens to be looking at a certain menu.

Similar to all DLC character's unlock conditions being looking at a certain menu followed by a monetary transaction.

The question for Miis isn't really an all-or-nothing. It's a question of how Mii is defined as "a character": 1111 vs all moves.

-DD

Create a characters have always been treated similarly in other fighters, beyond the usual DLC and unlocking.

But what's wrong with the middleground option of having them legal as 1111 movesets? This way, you don't need to set up a community effort detailing what Mii sets have to exist based on player input, and all of the prep time is before the tournament starts, not during as people import their characters. You get the preferable scenario of not banning anything, while sidestepping every major issue and complaint linked to custom moves.

If people really think total ban or all moves are the only two options, then we'll never come to a consensus.

The nature of the surgical 1-1-1-1 rule causes a lot of arguments on Mii legality. Like the one that happens before every single major tournament when rulesets are allowed. Compromises are meant to make both sides happy. This one generally just makes both sides more frustrated due to its nature. Mii rules are treated differently than all other rules. It rubs people wrong.

 

The nature of the surgical 1-1-1-1 rule causes a lot of arguments on Mii legality. Like the one that happens before every single major tournament when rulesets are allowed. Compromises are meant to make both sides happy. This one generally just makes both sides more frustrated due to its nature. Mii rules are treated differently than all other rules. It rubs people wrong.

You'd rub a lot more people wrong by choosing from the two options in the poll. A ban on them is arbitrary for the same reasons you mentioned in the OP. Full legality with their custom moves is a double standard. It's us saying "custom moves shouldn't be allowed, but these three characters are cool". Ditto when you add or subtract Palutena from the equation. There's no right answer in terms of logic. Plus we'd have to do another community effort, suffer from the backlash of custom move supporters whose characters are not receiving the same attention, still have people spending time during a tournament importing their own miis (because nobody has talked about whether that aspect should be banned, and mii players want to import their funny costumes). It is my opinion that Miis should only be allowed their full moveset when everybody else is, and I know many would disagree. The logic of all of this is most sound when customizable characters and custom moves are linked.

 

Hopefully Miis will be legalized the bigger tournaments so they can show us their moves. It's sad that it's taken this long. Also, hopefully Miis aren't limited to 1111. Anyway, to say the least, Miis would make things much more interesting. Plus, there are tons of mains waiting for them to be allowed.

 

My thinking is don't dock it till you try it.

Unfortunately, I think Miis will be banned because nobody is trying it (be it stupid banns, or the general consensus that Miis suck as characters.).

 

I never understood the dispute over their legality. They don't break the game, and are a legitimate part of the roster. It's not super hard to just set up three miis prior to the event, either. Just my two cents, anyway...

 

Zapp Branniglenn when using the David Sirlin ideals for ruleset making, which are used in most other games that don't have a major company deciding the rules, you look at what the game tells you for these things.

Yeah if customs are off Miis can use their moves, and Palutena can't. The in game code literally does not give Mii's moves the same labels as customs (I've hacked the game and looked). 1-1-1-1 bans are basically a ban to most Mii mains anyways, as 1-1-1-1 isn't what they want to play, so it's not even a compromise for them and a full ban wouldn't change anything essentially. It's why as a surgical rule doesn't work.

(For real though, read the Play To Win Article: it'll explain better.)

 

Miis were fine at MLG.
Miis were fine at Ktar.
Miis were fine at Evo.
Miis were fine pre-evo.

I dunno if people know this but Dapuffster pretty much quit Sm4sh because his character isn't allowed. (he plays Ike now but it isn't the same) Nyani has been making similar musings, she can't play her swordfighter. I think that's pretty stupid.

Not saying to spam them... but I think Bear, D1 and Mr. Wizard should know that people want to #FreeMii.

 

How feasible would it be to allow Mii mains to come early to make their Miis (allowing for size, face customization, etc.?).

Also, I'm in favor of Palutena's customs if Mii's customs are allowed.

 

why did they ban mii fighters in the first place

 

Maybe I'm being bitter here but as a Palutena player I'd honestly feel a bit jealous if Miis got all their stuff while Palutena couldn't. She needs her customs as much as they do, and they're all available from the start, but oops, the menu design doesn't bless her as it does with the Mii Fighters, now she's completely irrelevant.

Ugh.

 

Make Mii fully legal!

 

I stopped reading when it said that banning Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Brinstar, and Green Greens in Melee was warranted. Because it really, really wasn't, and the spectators suffer from it.

 

I prefer them to be banned, but I wouldn't mind if they were legal. Also, if you're gonna make custom moves for Miis legal, than you better let Palutena use her custom moves as well. Seriously, hers should be legal.

 

I don't think Miis not being on the CSS until you create one means anything. It's completely arbitrary. This is like saying name tags should not be used because they are not there by default. If the point of this is to say "they aren't REALLY characters on the roster", then that's very off. They have the same trophy variations other characters get. They have clear screens and victory movies. They have amiibo figures. And most importantly, they took development time like any other unique fighter.

I still don't see why people can't just, at the least, settle on using 1111 movesets and a default Mii appearance. That would be a compromise at least. It's not what I truly want to see but it's better than nothing.

Banning Miis because they aren't on the CSS makes as much sense as letting Miis have their custom because they can access them without a button being pressed.

 

Wait, why do we have to take an absolute stance? It's entirely possible that one aspect of the Miis is banworthy and the others are fine! Pretty much everyone thinks minimum size Miis are busted and with reason, and it'd be as easy to enforce as only allowing the default size "Guest Mii" to be used in tournaments. Mii customs are a different question entirely, and we gain nothing by lumping multiple aspects of this into one group and demanding we legalize or ban all of it at once.

And why does the absence of Miis on the default CSS mean banning them should be treated as the default? They just aren't technically unlocked until you've made one. It'd be like banning Lucina, Duck Hunt, or any of the DLC characters for not also being there from the start!

 

Honestly, I think that although miis should be legal (they are characters after all), we need to ask 2 questions: why are they considered different than any other character, and why can't people just settle for 1111, its the most convenient thing to do and if that set is worse than a custom one, then too bad, tons of characters have bad specials. The first is one of logic, the only real thing that differentiates miis from the rest of the cast is that they are customizable. Really? Are they? If 1111 medium size default miis were the only things allowed, wheres the customization. To answer the second question, people just need to deal with it, honestly, look at characters with near useless specials, like Peach or Rosalina. Do people complain about their specials. No, because they realize that every character has 18 moves other than their specials and its the same issue with miis. For the sake of having 3 universal mii fighters, this seems to be the easiest solution to me.

 

Mii size changes combos and kill percents. It's perfectly reasonable to restrict Miis to one set size so that players know how to DI and what their combos are. We should pick one size for Gunner, one size for Sword, and one size for Brawler.

Likewise, we should select a single set of customs to use with each Mii fighter type. Specials change a lot about how a character works, like their combo finishers, spacing options, and how they recover. The Mii boards should work out what set they should use so we can develop the meta around these characters. There is an inherent unfairness in allowing customization options for only a small portion of the cast.

 

As I've stated before, I'm pro-1111 guest Mii, mostly for logistical/consistency issues, given the alternatives I can think of (from what it sounds like to me, size has a much larger consensus than moveset, so I won't harp on it here):

• Ban Miis Altogether
• 1111 Miis*
• Standard non-1111 moveset for each type (random example B1321, S3122, and G2331).*
• One moveset per type per game set
• Full customization

The ones marked with asterisks I feel are the best compromises for Mii legality. 1111 allows Miis to be consistent with other characters and avoids the issue of e.g. "if Brawler can use Heli Kick, why can't Kong use Cyclone?", even if they unfortunately suffer as a result.

On the other hand, Miis with a single standard moveset, be it 1111 or something else, allows them greater competitive viability while still being consistent in counterpicks with other characters. Of course, this opens up the question of, e.g. "If SilverSmasher63 can use 2122 Mii Brawler, why can't I use 3133 Donkey Kong or 1122 Villager?" which is why I'm slightly more reluctant with taking this option.

Banning Miis is a little too strict, as we lose 3 characters this way, but I can see why it was done for so long as Miis are handled incredibly inconsistently by the game.

Allowing different Miis in the same tournament not only presents slight logistical issues, but gives Miis an advantage they don't really deserve, even if it's an advantage they (arguably) desperately need to even be viable at all.

 

Even if full custom Miis somehow became a dominating competitive force that was better than 3/4 of the roster.......they still wouldn't hold a candle to the current top tier.

We haven't banned Sheik, so why the heck would we ban Miis of all things?