Doubles and You, a Comprehensive Guide to 2v2s

[#HBC | J]

Lucas is above average normally in teams because he is a great punisher and a above average stock tank, however people really shouldn't be using Lucas in teams with a partner that cannot heal him. Using Lucas without his healing aspect is kindof pointless ;o

With the right partner (perquisites *if I got the word right*) Lucas is the best stock tank in the game due to his healing. Going from 100%->0% in a matter of less then 10 seconds is a great aspect in its self (or it seems to be =P)

This is just a little snippit of what could happen with the right partner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLzOj...os=AKBUSRJ_8lc

but in this post i don't wanna write up another summary so if you wanna see our summary please check out our board's thread ^_^

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10180044#post10180044 - Link to team thread :V

Basically Lucas is one of the better characters for teams and definetely high tier worthy. Which brings to a point there should be a tier list for doubles. :D

 

[Blacknight99923]

um no that doesn't exactly qualify as best stock tank, your assuming you will have the time to heal yourself combined with light weight poor range and fairly bad recovery you won't be stock tanking like a good snake can. I can't imagine lucas really being able to not get gimped by MK which a lot of teams will have


and 10 seconds is a lot of time in doubles lol

your agruements only really point to a 2v1 for lucas when lucas is on the 2.


lucas doesn't get damage to 30 or 50 percent in a matter of seconds liek fox snake or metaknight can either.

but at that point Double Ice climbers is the best ( I saw a vid where it was hylian and some other ice climbers doing double ice climbers as a team..... I would not want to be the 1 in a 2 V4 against essentially 4 characters)


then lucas having terrible 1v1 match ups against a lot of characters is also a nail in teh coffin

THEN you STILL have to take into account the characters he can TEAM with to achieve healing

Falco
Rob (not exactly viable since it takes to long)
ZSS
Fox
lucario
ice climbers (LOL)
pikachu
bowser
charzard (in which case its 1/3 of PT)
mabey a few more

I am sorry but I don't see a metaknight in there

almost none of the characters can really carry either those are all assist characters (except maybe lucario and ZSS).

In general for carrying you need long range fast damage (MK/snake wario G&W mabey even marth but primarily a character like metaknight sorry a character called metaknight) which isn't something lucas can do with his terrible range.


in other words the characters he has to team with to really shine aren't metaknight or some other character who can really pack a punch
Lucas doesn't cut it, sorry

 

[Yink]

um no that doesn't exactly qualify as best stock tank, your assuming you will have the time to heal yourself combined with light weight poor range and fairly bad recovery you won't be stock tanking like a good snake can. I can't imagine lucas really being able to not get gimped by MK which a lot of teams will have

Sorry to cut the post down a lot, just wanted to point something out.

Lucas is of medium weight, and he's got like, at least 3 different ways to recover and 2 of them are very effective.

 

[#HBC | J]

There is quite a few things wrong here. *sigh*

um no that doesn't exactly qualify as best stock tank, your assuming you will have the time to heal yourself combined with light weight poor range and fairly bad recovery you won't be stock tanking like a good snake can. I can't imagine lucas really being able to not get gimped by MK which a lot of teams will have

Lucas/Ness is very dead center mid but not as heavy as Mario. It goes something like Mario/Lucas/Ness. Also Lucas having a bad recovery is not right at all in the slightest. Lucas has quite a few options. Firstly his Double jump is really good. Followed by many options to get back to the stage. Wavebouncing, Zapjumping, Tether, and PKT2. And only factoring in MK as an option is silly. Lucas' recovery is definetely not a "fairly bad recovery"

and 10 seconds is a lot of time in doubles lol

I overestimated the time. Lucas can be healed in close to 5 seconds depending on the character.

your agruements only really point to a 2v1 for lucas when lucas is on the 2.

Actually Lucas can heal at all times if you saw the video posted above Lucas can heal in 2v2 quite nicely plus his great punishing helps people who rack up damage quite nicely also Lucas has decent damage racking ability which goes to the next point.

lucas doesn't get damage to 30 or 50 percent in a matter of seconds liek fox snake or metaknight can either.

Lucas is decent however not in a matter of seconds so it takes time but he's not horrid at it. And your missing a point. Lucas is for PUNISHING/HEALING not racking up damage so much.

but at that point Double Ice climbers is the best ( I saw a vid where it was hylian and some other ice climbers doing double ice climbers as a team..... I would not want to be the 1 in a 2 V4 against essentially 4 characters)


then lucas having terrible 1v1 match ups against a lot of characters is also a nail in teh coffin

This is probably the only thing I can agree to mostly. Lucas does have not outstanding MUs. However he has only 3 reaaaaaallly bad MUs (Snake/Marth/DK) *im not counting D3* otherwise he does mediocre against the rest of the high tier. 60:40 isn't **** (well to some it is) however Lucas isn't a good 1v1 contender in the end however better then some.

THEN you STILL have to take into account the characters he can TEAM with to achieve healing

Falco
Rob (not exactly viable since it takes to long)
ZSS
Fox
lucario
ice climbers (LOL)
pikachu
bowser
charzard (in which case its 1/3 of PT)
mabey a few more
Lucas
Ness
Zelda
Samus
Mario
Luigi
Wolf
Pit

17/38 members of the cast can heal him. That's alot of healing oppurtunites it seems

I am sorry but I don't see a metaknight in there

MK is too lame for Lucas xD jk. Anyways your point is that if MK can't heal him then he is absolete? Heck no.

almost none of the characters can really carry either those are all assist characters (except maybe lucario and ZSS).

In general for carrying you need long range fast damage (MK/snake wario G&W mabey even marth but primarily a character like metaknight sorry a character called metaknight) which isn't something lucas can do with his terrible range.

Lucas does not have terrible range. He has terrible air range not horrid ground range. However you are saying again "MK MK MK" Lucas with the right teammate is great.

in other words the characters he has to team with to really shine aren't metaknight or some other character who can really pack a punch
Lucas doesn't cut it, sorry

MK again *sigh* okay learn what you are talking about before saying something. Lucas is great in teams and definetely tournament viable in doubles and is one of the better partners.

Comments in blue, however both me and Yink tried to talk to you about this in aim so nothing much else we can do.

 

[Blacknight99923]

my opinion still stands, however I agree it seems we are more at differentiated opinions then anything else but yes we discussed this on ain so there isn't much more to talk about

my dubz partner and I still don't plan on using lucas in our team anytime soon though

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lucas doesn't get damage to 30 or 50 percent in a matter of seconds liek fox snake or metaknight can either.

lol, you realize that Lucas' d-air does 20 and combos in stuff like u-air right? That's 33 damage for landing a frame 4 aerial, which is much easier in doubles. GTFO or learn about Lucas.

 

[Kitamerby]

Ice Climbers and Lucas is actually a viable team.

Lucas can heal up to 60-80% in about 2 seconds. :V

I've also seen a few really impressive high-level matches with NinjaLink's ICs and someone's Lucas, but I can't find them anymore.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I don't see Ice Climbers being team viable at all. Even Lain was opposed to using them in teams for the fact that they're almost useless. I'm sure that you could do 'something' with them, but as it stands, they aren't too good.

Also, Lucas is a very good character in doubles. He requires babysitting considering he can be grab released over and over -- but he has some amazing DPS + Kill Potential. He can be healed from 100% -> 0% with ZSS's downsmash in less than 5 seconds if he just stands there holding the PK magnet out.

On quite a few characters on the roster, Lucas can Dair -> Dtilt -> Fsmash without failure. Force getup combos into something like that makes me cry, but it's amazing and useful nonetheless. I've actually been looking for a decent Lucas main to double with my ZSS. He's definantly viable.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think ally and mew2king are a viable team

 

[Grizzer]

I think ally and mew2king are a viable team

i second this,

10ally&m2k's

 

[#HBC | J]

ICs are only team viable with Lucas it seems. Seriously one tap of Down-B with both ICs = 2-70% health. with Sopo alone it is 1-30% health and this is an infinite. However ICs are still terribad in teams it seems. ">_>

How's Kirby in doubles? I really don't know but it would seem he would be pretty okay and on the good side.

 

[Blacknight99923]

honestly I would think double ice climbers is viable.
with 2 characters you could infinite both your opponents and with blizzard wall off sections to allow your partner to infinite


could you imagine being at a 4-1 agaisnt ice climbere (shivers)

 

[Nova9000]

I main ROB and my usual partner mains TL. How does that team sound? We work pretty well, except when either of us go bezerk with projectiles.

I also play G & W, DK, and Falcon. He plays Falco, Lucario, and Luigi as secondaries. What are our best combinations?

 

[Blacknight99923]

Gdubs and lucario

 

[#HBC | J]

Personally I prefer ROB/Lucario for a good team. However Lucario/Gdubs is also a good team because you can manipulate the bucket (naturally). ROB is a great stock tank and can DPS quite well and with Lucario's punishment (depending on stock) this team could do some damage. However with Gdubs always being a team viable character and with Lucario that team is pretty good. And just a hunch (i really don't know this is just a guess) TL/DK seems it might work however that's just from a thought process.

I would say those two are pretty good two close bets of mine for good teams, but go with whom you feel you both could do well as as a team. Plus I really hope this info doesn't come to bite me in the *** since we are in the same area

Hope it helped a little =P

 

[Remzi]

J did you switch back from ZSS to Lucas?

 

[#HBC | J]

I main ZSS/Lucas however for teams straight Lucas now for people that can heal. However like if I were to team with you again ZSS all the way. I wouldn't wanna use Lucas if he can't heal...not the best idea ever and ZSS is still pretty dag on good in teams.

They do a good job together =P I co-main the two because they are the ones I have the most fun with and are my best (still working on getting better x_x) Also if you go to Lanham, I want some friendlies.

 

[phi1ny3]

honestly I would think double ice climbers is viable.
with 2 characters you could infinite both your opponents and with blizzard wall off sections to allow your partner to infinite


could you imagine being at a 4-1 agaisnt ice climbere (shivers)

Hylian was in a double ICs team recently.

The matches I saw weren't very serious but...

I can see it maaaybe working lol.

 

[Remzi]

Eh, I think the problem with double ICs is that they can't run out for a quick save without putting themselves in a horrible position and risking death/nana separation and neither of them can tank.

 

[phi1ny3]

Neither of them can handle a team with MK on it either lol imo.

 

[Dekar173]

Updating with links to doubles threads, and added info on several characters

 

[Blacknight99923]

could you imagine double IC vs double snake

 

[Dekar173]

Updated further.

ATTENTION EVERYONE!!!

I would greatly appreciate any and ALL video links to particular videos of certain characters doing well in doubles.

Submission format:



Primary character, teammate's character (player names)

Tourney name

Video URL

Brief explanation of how the player displayed an effective playstyle for that character in the video.




Example:




Toon Link & Metaknight (MJG & Domo)

Random Tournament, Grand Finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsP4HC6CjvU

This is an excellent video depicting what TL's playstyle should resemble, slow, and defensive, while constantly harassing the opponents through means of projectiles, while your teammate plays up close.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

One minor thing with Ike: you forgot Bair as a punishing move. Seeing as it's his fastest one, it should be listed. >_>

I would also add Counter as a gimmick offense support. A team can practice setting situations up where the teammate hits Ike in his counter, but in such a way that the teammate doesn't get hit, and the opponent can. Not exactly used much, but it's there with the right team. There is also the Stun Jacket glitch (or w/e it's called) with Ike's and Marth's counter, but I'm not fully sure on how that works, or what category it would be in even.

 

[Ussi]

Counter Gimmick

 

[Blacknight99923]

marths counter doesn't give a comprehensive gimmick in anything less then 2/1 you would need to have your partner attack you from a distance, realistically only snakes C4 can give you what you want but there are so many problems with trying to do that consistently it only has 2v1 potential and even then its risky if there's a mistiming

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Counter Gimmick

There we go.

Snake dead at 32% = amazing gimmick if you can land it. Marth can do something similar, but his counter isn't as strong.

 

[Nova9000]

Personally I prefer ROB/Lucario for a good team. However Lucario/Gdubs is also a good team because you can manipulate the bucket (naturally). ROB is a great stock tank and can DPS quite well and with Lucario's punishment (depending on stock) this team could do some damage. However with Gdubs always being a team viable character and with Lucario that team is pretty good. And just a hunch (i really don't know this is just a guess) TL/DK seems it might work however that's just from a thought process.

I would say those two are pretty good two close bets of mine for good teams, but go with whom you feel you both could do well as as a team. Plus I really hope this info doesn't come to bite me in the *** since we are in the same area

Hope it helped a little =P

Lol. Thanks tho to you and Blacknight. And I should be at Lanham as well, but my partner I'm referring to may or may not be . And besides, I'm relatively new to the tourney scene.

 

[Ussi]

There we go.

Snake dead at 32% = amazing gimmick if you can land it. Marth can do something similar, but his counter isn't as strong.

Lets not forget it was the FOURTH hit counter did

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Who cares about weight when he has infallible planking?

Sup Dekar, MK stock tank = 9 plz

 

[Dekar173]

Planking is the one thing that I won't accept as a viable strategy, as it is becoming more and more limited with every passing month.

Soon, it will be completely unviable in doubles, unless if you consider getting yourself DQed viable.

 

[#HBC | J]

Why not be the first to submit =P

Lucas, Pikachu (Pink Fresh, Kenrawr (K9))

ATHF $5 fiveguys tournament

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLzOjGRCuA8&playnext_from=TL&videos=AKBUSRJ_8lc

In this video it shows how Lucas can stay alive for such a long time. Here it shows how well his healing can aid a team with a good healer character and a good stage. With Lucas he can heal during any time of the match as shown with Pikachu's UpB. It attacks opponents while healing which is a great aspect. Seeing this shows how Lucas can keep all 3 of his stocks till the end of the match to aid his partner. The way Pink Fresh ran away and healed most (the entire match) and looked for ways to punish the other teammates of Speed and Shadow were just great which also highlighted his ability to kill easy and help rack up damage. *short summary because just watch the video*

Great video Pink/K9 ^_^


Lucas, Lucario (Nasty, Fury)

DSO9 *do not know it myself :S*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o5HSSFTNe0

With this Nasty shows how well Lucas can come back from a match. With Lucas' healing this video shows how game changing it actually is. Also a key point to note with this. The way Chibo's ROB died last stock was due to the Dair->Dtilt lock which is really good for setting up smashes during teams. This video just shows that comebacks are alot more likely with Lucas and how well he can get kills.

Good Job Nasty/Fury =P

Lol. Thanks tho to you and Blacknight. And I should be at Lanham as well, but my partner I'm referring to may or may not be . And besides, I'm relatively new to the tourney scene.

Np at all and that sucks. Hopefully ill see ya there ^_^ plus don't worry i am too ._.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Counter can be used as a gimmick.
Old video, friendlies against Dark.Pch and his partner;;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtwx5_x6Vwc

 

[isolated321]

Strategie

kinda my strategies are advanced techs and others

 

[Nidtendofreak]

kinda my strategies are advanced techs and others

. . .

Wha?

 

[Dekar173]

The first video is more about Green Greens than about how effectively Pink Fresh played it safe/smart, but the second video is definitely some sexiness

Poor chibo can't DI lucas' dair (at that point in time, anyhow lol)

 

[#HBC | J]

Okay I could agree with the first video about how the stage played a major part but it also shows how annoying Lucas is on the right stage (still LOL GrGs legal ^_^) Though i still thought it was a good video to show =P

I'll try and find more stuff for ya Dekar. ^_^ i like this thread.

 

[Karcist]

I think that Samus should be:

Carry- 2
Stock Tank- 8
Punisher- 6
DPS- 4

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmgH9oGmjTw&feature=related

For Jbandit. same tourney lol. Losers semis :O

ffffffff.

lemme. put it in correct format.



Lucas, Pikachu (Pink Fresh, Kenrawr (K9))

ATHF $5 fiveguys tournament
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmgH9oGmjTw&feature=related

shows off neat tricks we can do. How the team should be positioned. not really sure what to put in here lol.
let Jbandit do the summary >.<

 

[#HBC | J]

thank you so much PF ^_^

I was actually trying to find that vid but couldn't cuz I fail at yt searching ;_;

Anyways that video shows how MUs can mean nothing with the right partner. D3 and Snake are two not so nice MUs for Lucas. Also if you look at the combos PF/K9 did with Grab AR -> Usmash -> Thunder was legitly nice. Plus on 2v1 it just means that keeping Lucas at Low percentage is easier rather than hard. A note, when PF went off stage against D3 that normally isn't the smartest thing however PF was easily able to dodge and get back to the stage since K9 was edgegaurding as well. I thought of that as a little trap to follow the tank off stage and then get trapped in between the two. (idk it just looked like it worked)

The ability of this team (again) shows how Pika/Lucas can heal WHILE attacking which is a big deal in teams. And how big a deal healing is.

However this is just my take. If PF wants to input telling a bit more about Lucas then by all means

Spoiler

anytime snake gets killed by Lucas is a good thing

Edit: Since PF said I can write a full summary yay =P (thanks btw)

So to go more in depth as to what happened I would like to point out a few things.

1.) When K9 was getting trapped by Coney's D3 doing the chaingrab on Pikachu PF easily used PKFr to manipulate it to only hit D3 which got Pika out of a nasty CG and was able to knock away D3.

2.) if you look at 2:43-2:48 you can see Lucas earns his 7 in damage racking by getting TKO's Snake from 35%-91% in the mist of 5 seconds with good timing. yay! lol

3.) Back to when D3 is left all alone after a good Uair to Snake. (sorry I just really dislike the Snake/Lucas MU) Anyways when Lucas did this he was above 100% and this isn't really good at all. However with healing with just 1 Thunder he was able to go down from over 100% to like 80%-higher 70%s which saved him 3 times. Otherwise with a normal partner they could have been killed and couldn't have been able to heal at all. Which just would've left his partner alone.

4.) The way D3 died was he was about to attack Lucas but all PF had to do was Fsmash him since it is a fast smash that just made D3 fly >;3

5.) Just again that combo was just absurdly awesome with thunder and Usmash <3

Well there's your detailed summary Dekar, hope it is good enough ^_^

On another note im suggesting Lucas have a stock tank number of 10 and Ness as 9 =P. Lucas heals more than Ness and has a better recovery in teams so that's why im saying 10 instead of 9 and better number then Ness. Ness still gets a 9 for healing ;o *this is their number with a healing partner*

Can someone else input for other characters or am I gonna have to go find vids for characters I am interested in. (I miiiiiight go get a few of Ness by tomorrow.)