DotA 2: 6.83 patch, The International 5 on the way!

[adumbrodeus]

my biggest problem with league is the 'low' skillcap. Due to lack of technical depth, its very easy to hit skill ceiling or get really close. Knowing what to do is usually enough because with exception of some team fights, execution isn't really that tough.

and almost all the fun champs I like got nerfed while subsequently GHEY champs get buffed

its also boring as **** to watch

==

with that being said theres some parts of league i like such as Chogath

===

is it possible to buy early boots+ orb of venom from side shop and slow/ auto attack them to death with a melee champ vs some guy u owned early with no boots? Or is it dumb/ I should get something like Urn instead

So they ignore the fluff of technical execution in favor of decisionmaking? That's a good thing.

Look, I know that a lot of people really like having technical skill as something the game is primarily designed to test, but treating tech skill as an advantage as opposed to a trade-off for depth in terms of decision-making, mixups, and the like, well it has problems.

You see, if you artificially increase technical barriers beyond what the game demands, this tends discourage people from getting interested in high level play, they simply leave or it causes a strict divide between the casual and competitive community if it can just be played in a way that ignores execution. This deprives the game of a steady stream of new talent. Furthermore, you end up with a lot of people who have the decision-making talent to be extremely high-leveled but lack the manual dexterity to compete.


From a design standpoint it's just incredibly limiting to treat tech skill as an advantage, and it's pretty obvious that in league for example, it sorts for skill quite well, there is a massive divide between good players and bad. It's just the difference between good and bad is decision-making.



Unpopular opinion both here and with melee because dota and melee players love their tech skill, but unfortunately it limits the audience a great deal.

Scar's like the only other melee player that agrees with me, qq.

 

[Lovage]

where the **** are u pulling these assumptions from?

higher tech ceiling = less decsion making?

easier game = more focus on strategy???

very noob way to rationalize these games

 

[Vyke]

Unrelated, but I don't think Melee was ever limited by being melee, but by it's community.

 

[adumbrodeus]

where the **** are u pulling these assumptions from?

higher tech ceiling = less decsion making?

easier game = more focus on strategy???

very noob way to rationalize these games

Lovage, I didn't explicitly discuss whether execution requirements cause less depth, however by saying that increasing execution should be treated as a trade-off for depth I implied that they're often linked (as in, increasing depth often requires increasing execution requirements).

Look, I understand you're definitely part of the crowd that really appreciates tech skill as something a game should test.

I'm just saying that if a game can manage to have both high depth and low technical ceiling it's a significant advantage in achieving a strong competitive community (in terms of size of high level players and ability to replace outgoing members) and if that's what your going for, technical requirements should not be treated as an end in and of itself.

 

[Ignatius]

I'm just saying that if a game can manage to have both high depth and low technical ceiling it's a significant advantage in achieving a strong competitive community (in terms of size of high level players and ability to replace outgoing members) and if that's what your going for, technical requirements should not be treated as an end in and of itself.

That's definitely fine. I feel DotA is at an amazing place though in both terms of technical requirement and the actual depth of the gameplay. I believe DotA has more depth than LoL, and if it has an increased tech barrier to go with that I'm content. I'm not saying LoL has no depth and is a ****ty game, it's just not my preference.

I am curious though as to how much you believe in there being no need for any technical depth. What do you think of skillshots? Should they even exist in LoL? For fighting games do you think something like Yomi is the ideal endgame?

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's definitely fine. I feel DotA is at an amazing place though in both terms of technical requirement and the actual depth of the gameplay. I believe DotA has more depth than LoL, and if it has an increased tech barrier to go with that I'm content. I'm not saying LoL has no depth and is a ****ty game, it's just not my preference.

I am curious though as to how much you believe in there being no need for any technical depth. What do you think of skillshots? Should they even exist in LoL? For fighting games do you think something like Yomi is the ideal endgame?

I'm honestly not good enough yet to judge whether dota or lol has more overall depth. As sinz will tell you, my understanding of dota is still weak. I do have a gut reaction against RNG though.


At a certain point you NEED some technical skill, otherwise you have very little depth. For example, R/P/S is technically purely about yomi, but the problem is that computer generated pseudo-random strategies break it, which is why translating it through various inputs keeps the game from being broken because move forward for 5 seconds and then move back for 5 seconds is an option in fighting games, but not a useful option.

Even if you break it down various useful options the only way to randomize in a fighting game is to program in mixups, which will in time become useless because the meta evolves. That's why no technical skill isn't a goal, you want as much depth as possible while at the same time keeping technical skill limited because while both confuse computers, beyond a certain ceiling we don't need to add technical skill to keep randomization as not a legitimate strategy.

So, back to the point at hand, skillshots add a ton of depth to the game because while it increases the execution floor, it also adds counterplay and utility to moves. It's worth keeping and doesn't increase the skill floor that significantly so it's worthwhile, only took one game for me to understand diana's wonky crescent skillshot.


Disclaimer, I draw inspiration from sirlin in a lot of my game design insight.

 

[R2_GP]

i've been playing league for while now, and i realize that dota2 players an league players have the same problem that melee and brawl players have, although i think in this league vs dotA2 case it's very hard to tell wich is better, dota2 is amazing and hard, league is amazing but more friendly for new players.

p.s: amm....brawl sucks i guess lol

 

[adumbrodeus]

i've been playing league for while now, and i realize that dota2 players an league players have the same problem that melee and brawl players have, although i think in this league vs dotA2 case it's very hard to tell wich is better, dota2 is amazing and hard, league is amazing but more friendly for new players.

p.s: amm....brawl sucks i guess lol

Well, that element is there, but at the same time brawl definitely has a lot of core problems that came from the fact that it was designed to discourage competitive play.

I think a more apt comparison is brawl- versus Bbrawl in terms of design philosophy.

 

[Lovage]

Lovage, I didn't explicitly discuss whether execution requirements cause less depth, however by saying that increasing execution should be treated as a trade-off for depth I implied that they're often linked (as in, increasing depth often requires increasing execution requirements).

the assumption you make is that they are linked (the entire reason for all your posts + your babbling about game philosophy)

and here they are not, if u played the game you would realize it pretty quick

Look, I understand you're definitely part of the crowd that really appreciates tech skill as something a game should test.
.

WTF DOES THIS MEAN U ARE IDIOT

and seriously wtf do you know about me

 

[Ignatius]

I'm honestly not good enough yet to judge whether dota or lol has more overall depth. As sinz will tell you, my understanding of dota is still weak. I do have a gut reaction against RNG though.


At a certain point you NEED some technical skill, otherwise you have very little depth. For example, R/P/S is technically purely about yomi, but the problem is that computer generated pseudo-random strategies break it, which is why translating it through various inputs keeps the game from being broken because move forward for 5 seconds and then move back for 5 seconds is an option in fighting games, but not a useful option.

Even if you break it down various useful options the only way to randomize in a fighting game is to program in mixups, which will in time become useless because the meta evolves. That's why no technical skill isn't a goal, you want as much depth as possible while at the same time keeping technical skill limited because while both confuse computers, beyond a certain ceiling we don't need to add technical skill to keep randomization as not a legitimate strategy.

So, back to the point at hand, skillshots add a ton of depth to the game because while it increases the execution floor, it also adds counterplay and utility to moves. It's worth keeping and doesn't increase the skill floor that significantly so it's worthwhile, only took one game for me to understand diana's wonky crescent skillshot.


Disclaimer, I draw inspiration from sirlin in a lot of my game design insight.

No disclaimer necessary, that's pretty much what I feel as well. I also don't really feel that DotA has anything that's technical just for the sake of being technical. For the most part I guess I'd say the most technically demanding things are multiple unit micro, but having that in adds some interesting things too. Other than that at high level you just have some really fast and demanding timings for some things that are super impressive. Like Dendi standing on the outside edge of ravage to steal it with Rubick and blink in as it travels outward to land his own Ravage.

The large bulk of the difficulty in DotA is making good decisions quickly and frequently though.

 

[Vyke]

I think discussing which is better is redundant considering that it's opinion on either side and never, ever going to be a fact.

 

[adumbrodeus]

the assumption you make is that they are linked (the entire reason for all your posts + your babbling about game philosophy)

and here they are not, if u played the game you would realize it pretty quick

Your prior post argued that "my view" that when you increased tech skill then you decreased decisionmaking and depth. I'm saying it wasn't my view.


If you don't think they're linked at all, well I can easily provide a ton of examples of things which increased the execution requirements but increased depth in games. Melee particularly has a lot of them.

They tend to be connected, though increasing execution isn't necessarily required to increase depth.

WTF DOES THIS MEAN U ARE IDIOT

and seriously wtf do you know about me

Why so hostile? You have a reputation in the melee community as valuing tech skill and this isn't the first time we've had a similar conversation.

No disclaimer necessary, that's pretty much what I feel as well. I also don't really feel that DotA has anything that's technical just for the sake of being technical. For the most part I guess I'd say the most technically demanding things are multiple unit micro, but having that in adds some interesting things too. Other than that at high level you just have some really fast and demanding timings for some things that are super impressive. Like Dendi standing on the outside edge of ravage to steal it with Rubick and blink in as it travels outward to land his own Ravage.

The large bulk of the difficulty in DotA is making good decisions quickly and frequently though.

I agree, it's case by case basis (and jesus, that was impressive), all I object to is adding technical skill requirements without adding depth, because that's just a waste.

 

[Redact]

is it possible to buy early boots+ orb of venom from side shop and slow/ auto attack them to death with a melee champ vs some guy u owned early with no boots? Or is it dumb/ I should get something like Urn instead

its not a bad idea, but its gotta be either against certain heroes, or your setup has certain heroes.

orbs not really there for harass, its more like "im not using any other orb effect with this melee hero, so ill take orb" with heroes like naix, lycan or even possibly skeleton king/doom

but yeah man think about orb, its a mad item than a lot of newer players dont even use. 12% slow + extra damage is really good for only 350 gold on melee heroes.

 

[Cinbad]

but yeah man think about orb, its a mad item than a lot of newer players dont even use. 12% slow + extra damage is really good for only 350 gold on melee heroes.

Soon to be 275 gold!
I bet orb of vemon will be core on all melee heroes now

also... WHERE ARE MY TECHIES VALVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFCLmTcr1p8

 

[Mic_128]

Always snag orb of venom with Ogre Magi. Just gives that club a bit more use between spells.

 

[Vyke]

I always looked at Orb and thought it'd be an okay purchase on some melee, but I never really picked it up because it was never recommended anywhere ever.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

R/P/S is technically purely about yomi, but the problem is that computer generated pseudo-random strategies break it, which is why translating it through various inputs keeps the game from being broken because move forward for 5 seconds and then move back for 5 seconds is an option in fighting games, but not a useful option.

Actually RPS has no yomi because there are no external forces. There are no resources to value your throws on, so the point is simply to be as random as possible.

I think discussing which is better is redundant considering that it's opinion on either side and never, ever going to be a fact.

Something tells me it should be possible to analyse game depth systematically using similar strategy as Big O Notation.

 

[Vyke]

The only people going to use that system for debate probably aren't going to use it to compare hobbies.

 

[Redact]

I always looked at Orb and thought it'd be an okay purchase on some melee, but I never really picked it up because it was never recommended anywhere ever.

95% of recommended are bad builds

 

[Vyke]

I was talking about Guides. I realized that the Recommended in-game were bad considering the stark contrast between Recommended In-Game and any guide I read.

 

[Ignatius]

You can persuade rosh with chen.

 

[MeatIsMURDER]

what a shocker, the LoL player also plays Brawl

look dude, the fact that you argue what you do shows me you've never been good at any serious competitive game

the reason tech skill matters is because it forces another aspect of competitive play. everybody can execute top level tech skill with practice. any other claim is just johns

have you ever tried to perform the tech skill you've rehearsed 1,000 times in a tournament environment? didn't think so. that's where true skill lies. fast decision making-->EXECUTION. you need COMPOSURE. you need to know how to resist pressure and pressure your opponents so that you mentally break them
-------------
in actual dota news
sadly my team couldn't win the joindota qualifier today. we lost to eternalenvy+admiral bulldog+mouz black
****ing am pickers, black carried them hard, the game was close. we had advantage for 25-30 minutes, took one bad fight, and then our tiny lost pace to keep up with anti fu--err mage


edit: this is what a high skill dota2 player looks like

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nice hair luke :D

 

[adumbrodeus]

what a shocker, the LoL player also plays Brawl

look dude, the fact that you argue what you do shows me you've never been good at any serious competitive game

the reason tech skill matters is because it forces another aspect of competitive play. everybody can execute top level tech skill with practice. any other claim is just johns

have you ever tried to perform the tech skill you've rehearsed 1,000 times in a tournament environment? didn't think so. that's where true skill lies. fast decision making-->EXECUTION. you need COMPOSURE. you need to know how to resist pressure and pressure your opponents so that you mentally break them

Speaking as a primarily melee player who knows what it means to practice millions of time and execute in a tournament environment (even if I've never really been that good) I think you're really just missing my point.

Frankly when it comes right down to it in terms of quality of a competitive game technical requirements are neutral, it neither makes it better or worse. Eventually anybody can learn to execute anything with practice, I agree, but it provides no decision points on it's own. Technically cracking is something to be trained out, cracking in terms of decision making can't.

That said, it's a disadvantage to the game forming a large and vibrant competitive community, because people need to practice for weeks, months, even years before they can play the real game. Given that these decisions are usually first impressions, this hurts a lot of games that would otherwise have stronger communities.

 

[MeatIsMURDER]

Hey guys I'm now a sponsored DOTA 2 player, joining the ranks of ROOT Gaming!!
http://root-gaming.com/about_root.php
check it out, I'm so stoked to be a part of the ROOT team
I will hopefully be streaming soon and I would love it if you guys would follow me
my twitter is @LDubStyle

thanks Joe

 

[Ignatius]

Grats toma.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Hey guys I'm now a sponsored DOTA 2 player, joining the ranks of ROOT Gaming!!
http://root-gaming.com/about_root.php
check it out, I'm so stoked to be a part of the ROOT team
I will hopefully be streaming soon and I would love it if you guys would follow me
my twitter is @LDubStyle

thanks Joe

Awesome, GL man!



(yes, I'm in the beta and currently trying to learn this game just fyi, I promise I'm not a riot fanboy here to troll)

 

[Vyke]

Does this mean you'll have to interact with Destiny on a regular basis?

 

[MeatIsMURDER]

don't know who destiny is but I played many games with CatZ and Drewbie and they are really fun people. we got along great and the community watching CatZ's stream was extremely welcoming. I look forward to the good we can accomplish together as viewers+players. I am about to graduate with my bachelor's and I have a really nice job lined up, but I don't think I can take it due to these developments. My life belongs in e-sports. I can accomplish so much for the world here and it serves as a starting point for my writing career. no ****ing idea what i'm supposed to do at the end of the year when i graduate. just thinking out loud here

life is so hard omg

 

[Vyke]

Show that you're super committed and a consistent, solid player (so the team keeps you) and start streaming. Then I'd agree it's worth taking over a really nice job. Unless you're getting salary for being on ROOT that you can live off of.

Destiny is an SC2 player with a pretty popular stream.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl_6q557AkY <- destiny

 

[JaceComix]

Oh man, I just remembered that this thread was here.
How's life DotA2 bros?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Good how you been Jace?

 

[DarkDragoon]

Hi everyone!
So as you may or may not be aware, there is currently a contest running to create Items for DotA2 characters.

I know nothing about this game, and I haven't really had much fun when I tried to learn on my own. So I'm skipping that step and just asking you guys:

"What characters are popular but are lacking items?"

If you have ideas for items too, feel free to share and I'll consider making them.

Right now the idea I'm running with is some "Royalty" set for Queen of Pain. Crown Jewels and all that jazz.

Feel free to PM me if it isn't really appropriate conversation for this thread.

Thanks!
-DD

 

[Redact]

https://dotabuff.com/heroes/played

rubick has no items yet i think?
windrunner, antimage, riki, PA, sk, TA then qop have no items too i think...

 

[DarkDragoon]

https://dotabuff.com/heroes/played

rubick has no items yet i think?
windrunner, antimage, riki, PA, sk, TA then qop have no items too i think...

That is a very useful little link there, thank you very much!
-DD

 

[wezai]

That is a very useful little link there, thank you very much!
-DD

Do you know where to find a good tutorial that teaches us how to implemented items to Dota 2? Given that we already have the model with its textures and etc.

I am learning how to use maya and I just got started trying to create something, I just need some heads to to introduce items in the workshop properly.

I am creating a sword for Sven, I am polishing its polycount right now (it's sitting beautifully around 400 polygons), and I am waiting for my Wacom Intuous4 to arrive from the internet so I can start texturing it properly (my mouse painting skills suck ).

Here is a sneak peek:

,

.

Those are my very first Dota 2 items and 3D models, so I am totally noob and I need to improve my modelling skills. I am all ears to feedback too

I have an idea for a complete set for Sven, and that sword is just the first item. Anyway, I am practicing with that sword, if I can learn more things, I think I can finish the complete set (and get rejected in the workshop) and then try to aim to introduce quality stuff in the future.

I am not worried about finishing everything for this polycount contest, I just want to learn how to really transfer our projects to the game, I find that some tutorials are lacking or are way too advanced for newbies like me.

 

[Mic_128]

Allow me to be a downer and say

I am creating a sword for Sven

I have an idea for a complete set for Sven

Ugh. More Sven items. It's a good looking sword, don't get me wrong, but why not make it for another hero that hasn't got anything yet? Or at least not a hero that's close to an Axe number of items. Alchemist uses swords, why not him? Chaos Knight? Other than contributing to item saturation (not to mention it means that you'll have a lot of competition) you can give itemless heroes something, and if that's all they've got, there'll be no competition when it comes to people buying items for that hero.

 

[wezai]

Allow me to be a downer and say





Ugh. More Sven items. It's a good looking sword, don't get me wrong, but why not make it for another hero that hasn't got anything yet? Or at least not a hero that's close to an Axe number of items. Alchemist uses swords, why not him? Chaos Knight? Other than contributing to item saturation (not to mention it means that you'll have a lot of competition) you can give itemless heroes something, and if that's all they've got, there'll be no competition when it comes to people buying items for that hero.

Because that is my first time messing around with Maya ever, so I thought that Sven would be good to practice with. I am not expecting my first items to be implemented in the workshop so you don't need to worry about that. I do know that Sven has a lot of items in the workshop, so that is why I chose him: For references. :3

I have also good ideas for PA, Puck, Visage, Meepo and a new courier. But I cannot work on these if I don't know how to model properly and implement stuff in the workshop. I'm just getting started.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Do you know where to find a good tutorial that teaches us how to implemented items to Dota 2? Given that we already have the model with its textures and etc.

I am learning how to use maya and I just got started trying to create something, I just need some heads to to introduce items in the workshop properly.

I am creating a sword for Sven, I am polishing its polycount right now (it's sitting beautifully around 400 polygons), and I am waiting for my Wacom Intuous4 to arrive from the internet so I can start texturing it properly (my mouse painting skills suck ).

Here is a sneak peek:

,

.

Those are my very first Dota 2 items and 3D models, so I am totally noob and I need to improve my modelling skills. I am all ears to feedback too

I have an idea for a complete set for Sven, and that sword is just the first item. Anyway, I am practicing with that sword, if I can learn more things, I think I can finish the complete set (and get rejected in the workshop) and then try to aim to introduce quality stuff in the future.

I am not worried about finishing everything for this polycount contest, I just want to learn how to really transfer our projects to the game, I find that some tutorials are lacking or are way too advanced for newbies like me.

The first here post has a lot, and probably all, the information you'll ever need: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100016

Worst case scenario, just ask and they can answer you. The stuff you have to do to get this working requires a bit of advance user knowledge of rigging and all that jazz.

;P I think that sword looks cool though!
-DD