Meta Donkey Kong Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[DK-RULES]

Maybe I dont have the timing right but does power shielding actually reflect in smash 4? I have not seen anyone do it yet. I have times similar to PM and nothing happens.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Maybe I dont have the timing right but does power shielding actually reflect in smash 4? I have not seen anyone do it yet. I have times similar to PM and nothing happens.

Powershielding does not reflect in this game, and it makes a different sound in this game. It's slightly more comparable to the thudding sound of regular powershielding in Melee in terms of volume, rather than being a loud *TCHING* in Brawl.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

I've been playing DK lately and I hardly ever used him in past installments so I wanna know some metagame basics. What should I be trying to do with DK? What should I avoid?

 

[Big O]

@ ZeroJanitor
The Good

-Space with Bair, Up B, and Down B, and tilt attacks
-Use fully charged Neutral B to super armor through predictable attacks (requires practice)
-Break shields with Side B
-Punish rolling and spot dodging with Up B, Down B, and Dash Attack
-Combo into Uair with Cargo Hold --> Utoss (character and % dependent)
-Combo into stuff if Dtilt trips (low-mid %'s only)
-Punish lag with the appropriate smash attack (or Neutral B) for the KO
-Chase people offstage and edgeguard/gimp
-Spike with Fair or Dair
-Shielding, spot dodging, jumping over, rolling through, or ducking under projectile spam

The Bad

-Getting juggled (use your double jump, air dodge, fast fall, and Up B intelligently)
-Spamming smash attacks
-Walking, running, or falling into projectile spam
-Air dodging into the ground (break this habit if Brawl drilled it into you)
-Landing with aerials at point blank range instead of a safe distance (free shield grab if they blocked it)
-Attacking shields from too close in general (use grabs instead)

The Ugly

-Chopper Kong (custom Up B 2)

 

[Azazel]

I find Dk's standing grab range pretty short.
His Pivot grab ridiculous. to compare, a quick pivot grab even whilst sliding away would grab someone who was in standing grab range. To abuse this Roll cancel pivot grab allows you use your pivot grab in place. any character can do this but I think it maybe more important to DK.
TL;DR

Roll Cancel Pivot Grab = Pivot Grab in place = longer range standing grab

method (where ">" is THEN immediately)
whilst face away from the opponent →(dash) > Shield(roll) > ← + A(or grab)

Roll Cancel dash grabs may be useless for DK, but he gains some utility from Roll Canceled Pivot Grabs

 

[RiotLettuce]

One thing I have noted (not sure if this was in Brawl) but when you're on a platform you can down b and hit characters underneath you. It looks like it will only hit at the end of the down b. The only thing that this seems to not hit is Greninja, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Olimar, Pikachu, and sometimes Game and Watch. Not too sure about my results so don't take this into fact just yet.

 

[Big O]

Yeah DK's pivot grab is like T Hawk SPD range. It's almost as good as Bowser's which I'd compare to Zangief's SPD range. With grabs losing grab armor, I'm not sure how useful this will end up being.

 

[DK-RULES]

Though I would always love for DK range on grabs to increase, I would really love if his cargo up throw didn't launch so high so you can follow up or force an air dodge and still follow up.

 

[RiotLettuce]

I don't know if you guys have ever done this or do this on purpose; but when your opponent is on the edge and you think they're going to standard get up and shield, use down b. Down B will push them to the edge and if it breaks their shield they'll fall right off the stage. The more I go on the more this happens to me and it gets more and more frequent. It's unbelievably satisfying.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

I don't know if you guys have ever done this or do this on purpose; but when your opponent is on the edge and you think they're going to standard get up and shield, use down b. Down B will push them to the edge and if it breaks their shield they'll fall right off the stage. The more I go on the more this happens to me and it gets more and more frequent. It's unbelievably satisfying.

ye, lots of videos have been uploaded already

 

[Kiwi71]

I've come to realize Donkey Kong is a really good fit for the 3ds play style. Since there is no more ledge hogging, he can always recover horizontal relatively free of charge (avoiding meteors/spikes can be problematic).

Speaking of meteors, is there anybody with a better meteor game than dankykang? It took a while to get timing down on his moves/the rest of the cast, but he is extremely hard to recover from offstage against. If you happen to have a charged donkey punch, you own the recovery area on any edge. Uair, DP, Fair, side-b, Dair pretty much covers the entirety of it. Meteors and KO moves all around.

 

[Brickbox]

what are dk's safest approach options?

How do you guys apply pressure without being unsafe?

I'm trying to rebuild my fundamentals so I can hopefully learn some new stuff and not fall into auto pilot DK.

 

[Big O]

In order to promote tournaments with customs being legal, it has been proposed that every character should have 8 slots with pre-built custom move loadouts to cut down on the extra time investments/costs TO's have to deal with. Most characters have 2-4 common/optimal loadouts anyway and maybe a few more situation ones. Using these pre-built slots, most of the hassles for TO's regarding the logistics of custom moves can be eliminated.

All that needs to be done is unlocking the customs once on a 3DS, and then the TO's can transfer all the common loadouts to every Wii U setup beforehand. In order for this to really catch on, the community has to agree on the 8 pre-built loadouts for each character. What's important here is that not every single possible combination needs to be included, only the best few. While the last few slots may be debateable, what's important is that there needs to be a consensus and that compromises should be expected. Even if your preferred loadout isn't one of the 8 chosen and no one at the tourney has a 3DS with your combination unlocked (highly unlikely worst case scenario) it is better than no customs allowed at all for nationals like APEX.

Perhaps a discussion on which 8 combinations are best for DK should take place in a new thread?

 

[ChaosQualm]

I have a couple questions regarding strategies that worked for DK in Brawl.

1. Can he still do lagless up Bs onto stages and platforms by being level with them as he lands?

2. Does the cargo back throw stage spike gimmick still work?

3. Is downthrow to ftilt still a true combo at 0-15 percent?

4. Can he do still do lagless up Bs after coming down from platforms onto the stage by up Bing as soon as he falls off them?

 

[RiotLettuce]

1. Lagless up B's now have lag so you cannot perform them.

2. Cargo backthrow stage spike has a lot of lag now so you're only gimping yourself

3. Downthow to ftilt works sometimes, a lot easier to perform in Brawl

4. Like I said, lagless up b's are deconfirmed, however Kong Cyclone, DK's 3rd custom up b allows him to lagless up b

 

[Brickbox]

I don't have the WiiU game and I have been out of the loop for a bit so maybe one of my kong friends can fill me in.

So vectoring is replaced with DI now? (This is what I heard hopefully this doesn't make me look foolish) Does this change anything that dk can do with up throws? Or does DI ing up render up throw/cargo up throw useless?

Happy Thanksgiving kongs

 

[DK-RULES]

the throws are still too high I think except for fox or Falco at very low percentages.
I don't really use up throw for follow ups f a combo perspective. I do throw them up to follow with UAIR butnitnis more of catching them as they fall.
I did notice g&w has an up throw I think that throws up a very short distance. We need this to happen for DK

 

[DK-RULES]

Does anyone have any suggestions to get out of mario or luigi's up tilt attack at low percents? I got slaughtered online twice with that. tried air dodging, but it didn't work. Have any of you gotten stuck in that? This person took me 0 to 60 both times. Thoughts?

 

[Big O]

Does anyone have any suggestions to get out of mario or luigi's up tilt attack at low percents? I got slaughtered online twice with that. tried air dodging, but it didn't work. Have any of you gotten stuck in that? This person took me 0 to 60 both times. Thoughts?

Up B, double jump, and SDI'ing up are your best options. If the Up B works, make sure you go for a ledge. If you double jump too early you'll get hit and waste it, so you have to get a feel for when you can jump out. SDI'ing up just adds a little distance so it can't hurt to try. It could be the difference between a 3 hit chain vs 4 hit chain.

 

[Neon!]

This is the most recent Japanese tier list.
Any thoughts on DK's placement?

 

[Big O]

Lol that tier list is so bad. Everything below A tier is pretty terrible and all the swordsman are hilariously misplaced (MK above Shulk, Link, TL, Marth and Lucina???). Also why is Pit a full tier above Dark Pit?

 

[itsaxelol]

while the tier list is odd, thats just about where i said DK would be back in September. 30-35

 

[Blueberry Kong]

I think that tier list is pretty accurate actually. Right now it might not seem obvious, but I trust the Japanese know what they're talking about.

 

[DK-RULES]

I think for DK, if they would only make it so UP Special air didn't cause such an extreme lag to get up or keep moving, it would make a difference. In project M, that was done and it made a world of difference. The other thing would be to decrease how high someone gets tossed after cargo throws. It is almost pointless to even have it currently. That would allow some follow up potential and improve the tier.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

I think for DK, if they would only make it so UP Special air didn't cause such an extreme lag to get up or keep moving, it would make a difference. In project M, that was done and it made a world of difference. The other thing would be to decrease how high someone gets tossed after cargo throws. It is almost pointless to even have it currently. That would allow some follow up potential and improve the tier.

completely agree... it led to so many options in brawl when you could cancel the entire lag

 

[Dre89]

Just wanted to know what people think of jumping headbutt. The main appeal to me is that when you use it in the air you stonefall but you can grab the ledge whilst dropping, similar to bowser bomb. I just think it's a good option because it gives DK mobility that he wouldn't otherwise have, and standard sideb is pretty bad move this game so it's not a significant loss.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

Just wanted to know what people think of jumping headbutt. The main appeal to me is that when you use it in the air you stonefall but you can grab the ledge whilst dropping, similar to bowser bomb. I just think it's a good option because it gives DK mobility that he wouldn't otherwise have, and standard sideb is pretty bad move this game so it's not a significant loss.

Aerial headbutt uses:
1. RAR > bait shield > side b and (hopefully) break shield
2. When off stage, aerial side b the opposite direction so you can come back with Bairs. Only do this if your punch is charged, otherwisd you could reverse charge punch cancel to change directions
3. Aerial Side B oos...?

Grabbing the edge with it doesn't really seem useful to me. Would much rather fall to the edge with Bairs/Up b

 

[Dre89]

Aerial headbutt uses:
1. RAR > bait shield > side b and (hopefully) break shield
2. When off stage, aerial side b the opposite direction so you can come back with Bairs. Only do this if your punch is charged, otherwisd you could reverse charge punch cancel to change directions
3. Aerial Side B oos...?

Grabbing the edge with it doesn't really seem useful to me. Would much rather fall to the edge with Bairs/Up b

You can't reverse jumping headbutt to set up bairs because you stonefall like bowser bomb.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

You can't reverse jumping headbutt to set up bairs because you stonefall like bowser bomb.

well... if you're really high. it's pretty annoying in this game

 

[Soshii]

well... if you're really high. it's pretty annoying in this game

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the custom side-B that causes DK to jump then stonefall.

 

[Yazz]

Very interesting. How far did you slide?

Charizard actually has the same sliding tech with his rock smash where you buffer the down b right as you're jumping and hold a direction you will do a little slide. It's the length of about a melee wavedash but it's more gradual. I think you can make it go a little further if you do a running jump.

 

[BSP]

Up B, double jump, and SDI'ing up are your best options. If the Up B works, make sure you go for a ledge. If you double jump too early you'll get hit and waste it, so you have to get a feel for when you can jump out. SDI'ing up just adds a little distance so it can't hurt to try. It could be the difference between a 3 hit chain vs 4 hit chain.

However, if you are fighting Mario and he has FLUDD charged, do not retreat to the ledge with Up B. A smart one will shoot you past the ledge with FLUDD and KO at sub 30%.

 

[Brickbox]

However, if you are fighting Mario and he has FLUDD charged, do not retreat to the ledge with Up B. A smart one will shoot you past the ledge with FLUDD and KO at sub 30%.

I'll be keeping this in mind >.> Sup BSP

Charizard actually has the same sliding tech with his rock smash where you buffer the down b right as you're jumping and hold a direction you will do a little slide. It's the length of about a melee wavedash but it's more gradual. I think you can make it go a little further if you do a running jump.

Hmm, I'll have to mess around with this. Hopefully it can be used in someway, but I kinda doubt it.

 

[meshiach]

What are good vs bad stages for DK? And why? I typically feel most comfortable playing on Smashville but in matches I've seen of Will he often counterpicks to lylat. What mileage does DK get out lylat?

 

[DKwill]

What are good vs bad stages for DK? And why? I typically feel most comfortable playing on Smashville but in matches I've seen of Will he often counterpicks to lylat. What mileage does DK get out lylat?

On Lylat DK can take advantage of multiple benefits. The platforms are a good height for both up smash and side-b shield break mix-ups. They also give DK a landing option mix-up, as do the platforms on Battlefield.

More notably, when the stage tilts you can recover with up-b onto the stage while remaining aerial as long as possible. In this way, you can catch an opponent during the start up of one of their attacks and drift into them for massive damage. Aerial up-b can do up to 30%+ when you catch someone in this way.

In addition, back air stage spiking is extremely prevalent on Lylat. Even if they tech, you can harass with up-b for another stage spike or additional damage.

 

[Dre89]

Speaking of headbutt, just wanted to point out that stubborn headbutt literally oneshots shields if you can manage to land it. I've been using the SA to cover my landings or just to trade moves. Sometimes and if you set it up correctly people will have no option but to shield it or take the hit. Obviously super situational but nice to remember.

 

[RtMbot]

Perhaps this has been asked plenty of times before but, what are DK's options against heavy rushdown characters such as Sheik or Greninja? Usually as DK, I try to play a slower, more punishment-based game, which means that I'm either not the first one to approach, or if I am, I go in slowly looking for an opportunity. The problem comes with fast, safe characters who force you to approach because they have a fast, annoying projectile to spam, and when you finally do manage to get in range, their offense and mixups typically come out so fast that I can't keep up. Even someone like Sonic gives me trouble because of the hit-and-run style that he has.

Should I do retreating back airs? Attempting to go through the mixups with grounded up-B or down-B? Or should I rely on getting grabs?

 

[Brickbox]

Is the cargo release distances DI-able or does each character get released at a different place.

If this is non DI able but instead character specific maybe someone could compile a list of distances that the different characters go.

Cargo releasing people so they grab the edge into ledge trump to back air is so satisfying. but I can't seem to get the distance right every time.

 

[Robin1613]

LARIATOOOOO no but seriously DK's up b is amazing when it comes to rush down characters like sheik. Plus she has a hard time killing so you should be able to kill her a lot earlier than she does you due to the inclusion of rage.

 

[Poxnixles]

When are times you'll want to go for the 10 swing punch instead of a full charge?