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Meta Donkey Kong Competitive and Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Krynxe
- Start date
RtMbot
Smash Rookie
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With how quickly people can get out of your grabs in this game, it's going to be very hard to pull off unless they are at a very high percentage, in which case it would most likely just be better to finish them off with something else.
RtMbot
Smash Rookie
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Usually when I get a grab, I find myself going for either an up-throw or a back-throw. While not guaranteed or as easy to pull off as say, Diddy's d-throw>uair, up-throw can lead into a u-air from you, and back-throw can actually kill at the right percents or stage position; it launches at a more horizontal angle than a forward throw, so it's also easier to get people off the stage with it.
It is all situational and depends at what position and percent they are at.
Back throw does the most damage btw, so keep that is mind.
Here is some of the situations I choose the according throw:
1-20% I do cargo up throw/up throw and try to read an air doge and get in an up air.
20-35% I go for down throw and walk a tiny bit and do down-b. This will destroy pretty much all techs/tech rolls as well as get ups. It is a great way to rack on percent.
35-45% I do cargo down throw, it is basically the same as down throw but it makes them go lower than down throw.
If they are jumping out of the down throw instead of teching you can easily follow with an air move. (up-works well)
mid percents that are too high to combo I usually go for back throw or what ever throw takes them offstage.
140%+ I try to make sure back throw isn't to stale so I can have it on hand as a kill move.
Back throw does the most damage btw, so keep that is mind.
Here is some of the situations I choose the according throw:
1-20% I do cargo up throw/up throw and try to read an air doge and get in an up air.
20-35% I go for down throw and walk a tiny bit and do down-b. This will destroy pretty much all techs/tech rolls as well as get ups. It is a great way to rack on percent.
35-45% I do cargo down throw, it is basically the same as down throw but it makes them go lower than down throw.
If they are jumping out of the down throw instead of teching you can easily follow with an air move. (up-works well)
mid percents that are too high to combo I usually go for back throw or what ever throw takes them offstage.
140%+ I try to make sure back throw isn't to stale so I can have it on hand as a kill move.
The cargo release distance is DI-able and the degree to which they DI is probably character dependent. Cargo releasing's usefulness is based on how it forces some characters to recover in exploitable ways. If the opponent mashes a lot, it can also trigger SD's.
You want to use the 10 punch when it can kill and the fully charged punch can't. Most people also aren't as cautious vs the punch when you don't have it fully charged.
Your best throws 90% of the time are Cargo Hold -> Utoss and the regular Bthrow. In the rare case they are too floaty/damaged to combo/trap with Utoss -> Uair effectively and Bthrow throws them the wrong way, then you just Cargo Hold and walk/throw them towards the nearest blast zone.
Both Dthrow and Dtoss force a tech chase at best. Most people can just jump before they hit the ground. If they can't, they also fall fast enough to get Utoss to Uair for free anyway. Both throws are also pretty laggy.
Uthrow <<< Utoss. Only time to Uthrow is when you have the possibility of being interrupted like vs Rosalina or in teams. If you have high rage you can maybe kill floaties, but Bthrow KO's earlier unless you are facing the wrong way.
Ftoss/Btoss no longer stage spike easily or effectively, so all they do now is get people offstage. It takes too long to spike and lags too much after the throw to recover safely, especially if they tech.
waldorf2007
Smash Ace
So, this is regarding cargo stage spikes. I did a forum search for them and none of the posts I read looked into it much.
I've been playing around and mostly it's non-viable (that was made clear in previous posts) but here's a couple videos of some stuff I tried in practice. I know this is not super viable but I survived doing stage spikes under the stage.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7MYfU1x9SChdzUzZUdDVUpDUlk/view?usp=sharing
-You fall off the edge and immediately DI toward the stage. Up throw, with very minimal end lag. super easy to survive. I land it in the last 5 or 6 seconds. Sorry, it's a bad video. Similar situation to brawl where someone can tech and footstool, though.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7MYfU1x9SChLUx2dXF1ellWV3c/view?usp=sharing
I do it again in the last 5-6 seconds.
It's not in the videos but you can also (for suicidal options) fall a great distance and back throw. Pretty useless, super easy to tech, and...again, useless.
But check out immediately DIing toward the stage and up throwing. it's hard to do but you get some uncanny DI while cargo carrying and you can get under the stage really quickly.
It's just a little less viable than brawl, meaning it's good to scrub out people who can't tech and don't tend to mash. Happens more often than you think in pools.
Any thoughts? Anyone also worked with this and want to show me how bad this is?
I've been playing around and mostly it's non-viable (that was made clear in previous posts) but here's a couple videos of some stuff I tried in practice. I know this is not super viable but I survived doing stage spikes under the stage.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7MYfU1x9SChdzUzZUdDVUpDUlk/view?usp=sharing
-You fall off the edge and immediately DI toward the stage. Up throw, with very minimal end lag. super easy to survive. I land it in the last 5 or 6 seconds. Sorry, it's a bad video. Similar situation to brawl where someone can tech and footstool, though.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7MYfU1x9SChLUx2dXF1ellWV3c/view?usp=sharing
I do it again in the last 5-6 seconds.
It's not in the videos but you can also (for suicidal options) fall a great distance and back throw. Pretty useless, super easy to tech, and...again, useless.
But check out immediately DIing toward the stage and up throwing. it's hard to do but you get some uncanny DI while cargo carrying and you can get under the stage really quickly.
It's just a little less viable than brawl, meaning it's good to scrub out people who can't tech and don't tend to mash. Happens more often than you think in pools.
Any thoughts? Anyone also worked with this and want to show me how bad this is?
itsaxelol
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 654
ive been using the cargo uthrow for the powerbomb since the wii u release. i havent posted about it because i was afraid of a patch. its obvious the reason why cargo fthrow and bthrow are so ****ing useless with so much lag afterwards is because of the brawl stage spike/powerbomb, so i figured if he saw this, DK would lose his only combo in uthrow uair
lylat is the best level for it, because its a messed up level in terms of the ledge
mario kart fd (crap brawl one), wuhu fd, smashvile, smashvile 2 and a bunch others i dont remember are all good for it too. a lot of the fd versions are
the way youre doing it in that video is only going to work on lylat because its so ****ed up. what you really need to do to get it to work on the other levels is grab, walk towards edge, pivot when youre about to hit the edge, drift towards the stage and use your C STICK to throw them UP. its much easier using the stick for the throws. ill try to get a video up and show you guys
edit - i have tons of replays so its hard to find these, i grabbed two real quick
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXmYTibqd3XWFdVZm9YU1ZSQWs/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXmYTibqd3XaEhwZExLeHdyZFE/view?usp=sharing
^ this one is a good example of what i described in the paragraph above. notice that i pivoted correctly and now dks face is going towards the stage. the momentum makes it much easier like this
up throw is better since theres no lag. fthrow or bthrow works, but often its a suicide kill. that being said. when uthrow cant work, the fbthrow can. stages like battlefield. uthrow will only work if you go under the curved lip of levels
problems is that its just not that viable. 1) its much easier to mash out 2) standing pivot on edge doesnt take you off the stage like brawl, crippling the speed of this move and making it require a lot of start up 3) when they're at a good enough percent for this, bthrow is usually better
the only time ive found it -very- useful is lylat/lylat FD. its DK best stage, his recovery doesnt get messed with as much as the people with vertical up bs, and its incredible easy to pull off due to lylats ledge mechanics. its great on for glory too, lol, especially since up until the post above me not a single person ive seen on the internet in 3 weeks has brought this up, so imagining the look on peoples faces when i kill them with this is great
lylat is the best level for it, because its a messed up level in terms of the ledge
mario kart fd (crap brawl one), wuhu fd, smashvile, smashvile 2 and a bunch others i dont remember are all good for it too. a lot of the fd versions are
the way youre doing it in that video is only going to work on lylat because its so ****ed up. what you really need to do to get it to work on the other levels is grab, walk towards edge, pivot when youre about to hit the edge, drift towards the stage and use your C STICK to throw them UP. its much easier using the stick for the throws. ill try to get a video up and show you guys
edit - i have tons of replays so its hard to find these, i grabbed two real quick
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXmYTibqd3XWFdVZm9YU1ZSQWs/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXmYTibqd3XaEhwZExLeHdyZFE/view?usp=sharing
^ this one is a good example of what i described in the paragraph above. notice that i pivoted correctly and now dks face is going towards the stage. the momentum makes it much easier like this
up throw is better since theres no lag. fthrow or bthrow works, but often its a suicide kill. that being said. when uthrow cant work, the fbthrow can. stages like battlefield. uthrow will only work if you go under the curved lip of levels
problems is that its just not that viable. 1) its much easier to mash out 2) standing pivot on edge doesnt take you off the stage like brawl, crippling the speed of this move and making it require a lot of start up 3) when they're at a good enough percent for this, bthrow is usually better
the only time ive found it -very- useful is lylat/lylat FD. its DK best stage, his recovery doesnt get messed with as much as the people with vertical up bs, and its incredible easy to pull off due to lylats ledge mechanics. its great on for glory too, lol, especially since up until the post above me not a single person ive seen on the internet in 3 weeks has brought this up, so imagining the look on peoples faces when i kill them with this is great
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waldorf2007
Smash Ace
I'm just waiting for someone to scrub out a decent player who can't tech with this. Thanks for the video, I wasn't sure about pivoting as DK falls off the ledge.
And yeah, I used lylat because it's a common counter for DK players. I figure it could get some use, at least in getting that quick stock.
It may only work once in an entire set, but if people really stick with 2 stock, having a cheap one stock lead will be crucial. Just another gimmick to throw out.
And yeah, I used lylat because it's a common counter for DK players. I figure it could get some use, at least in getting that quick stock.
It may only work once in an entire set, but if people really stick with 2 stock, having a cheap one stock lead will be crucial. Just another gimmick to throw out.
Luigi player
Smash Master
Looks really scary to use imo. If they know it's coming they can tech easily and then probably footstool you...
Tujex
Smash Ace
UpB works wonders on approaching DHD. But only if you're good at surviving until high percentages.
ZeroJanitor
Smash Ace
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Approximately what percentages will cargo up throw into up air connect (specifically on Luigi)?
It works until like 40% (very tight timing). Rage makes it stop working even earlier though.
Basically floaty lightweights are only combo'd at early %'s, while fast falling and heavyweight characters are combo'd for free until high %'s. More rage = lower combo %'s.
NinthWonder
Smash Apprentice
Now I have hardly played this game as much as the rest of you probably have, but I got in a decent amount of matches against my friend who has been playing a lot since the Wii U release.
So by no means is this information close to accurate.
I still want to give some 2 cents. From what I have witnessed, regular up-throw at low percentages can lead into 2-3 utilts and a string of 2-3 uairs. With some reads on how the opponent lands, you can tack on additional uairs and some bairs. I got my friend up to 50% and above consistently with this strategy.
This, of course, will differ with different weight classes and floaty/non-floaty characters, and I haven't studied much into how well it works on the entire cast. However, up-throw-utilt and uair strings seem to do a god job.
In terms of attacking projectile-based characters, approaching with precise shields and reading rolls and grab attempts appears to be the only good option when on a FD variant. Platform stages like Battlefield really help you get around projectiles and attack safer.
Downb appears to be nice to use whenever you are up close against an opponent who's shielding too much or you're having trouble landing some hits to get something started.
As aforementioned, he is easily kept in the air and has a looot of trouble getting down on the ground. Megaman's uair was a notable disturbance for me, but that might just be my own unique issue.
Like I said, this isn't accurate by any means. Just some observations. I have a tournament on Saturday so I'll see how things go there.
So by no means is this information close to accurate.
I still want to give some 2 cents. From what I have witnessed, regular up-throw at low percentages can lead into 2-3 utilts and a string of 2-3 uairs. With some reads on how the opponent lands, you can tack on additional uairs and some bairs. I got my friend up to 50% and above consistently with this strategy.
This, of course, will differ with different weight classes and floaty/non-floaty characters, and I haven't studied much into how well it works on the entire cast. However, up-throw-utilt and uair strings seem to do a god job.
In terms of attacking projectile-based characters, approaching with precise shields and reading rolls and grab attempts appears to be the only good option when on a FD variant. Platform stages like Battlefield really help you get around projectiles and attack safer.
Downb appears to be nice to use whenever you are up close against an opponent who's shielding too much or you're having trouble landing some hits to get something started.
As aforementioned, he is easily kept in the air and has a looot of trouble getting down on the ground. Megaman's uair was a notable disturbance for me, but that might just be my own unique issue.
Like I said, this isn't accurate by any means. Just some observations. I have a tournament on Saturday so I'll see how things go there.
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meleebrawler
Smash Hero
A well-timed grounded Spinning Kong can do wonders when
approaching spacing characters and do good damage as well.
approaching spacing characters and do good damage as well.
NinthWonder
Smash Apprentice
From watching a lot of DK videos, it looks look Up B has become a really good approach option. It has armor on it that gives it the ability to challenge a lot of moves. Can't really get any follow-ups out of it, especially of the opponent DIs out of it behind you, but it still gets the hits in.
How do you guys cover both the major get up options? (regular and jump)
Up is good options to cover every option but the problem is that it isn't fast enough to react to someone getting up and if you miss you will get punished.
Up is good options to cover every option but the problem is that it isn't fast enough to react to someone getting up and if you miss you will get punished.
Chackaldane
Smash Rookie
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- Dec 15, 2014
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- 9
I have been looking and haven't seen anyone mention it. I'm not sure if it is viable at all but I think we may be able to use to aerial down b.
It may just be because people really don't expect it, because generally I try to jump in as if I am going to f air. when they air dodge, I throw the hand slap and generally both if not one hit will connect. It has some pretty crazy knockback. It also is really handy against people who keep air dodging your other meteors. So I think it can at least be a move that is used as a mixup.
The real use for it is that it can interrupt quick recovery moves like falco phantasm or quick attack. It may just be me but I find it difficult to time the Dair in instances like these and IMO when using aerial down b it is much easier time because due to the two hit boxes it lasts longer catching and than slamming down the opposition or just slamming if the first hit misses. I have a lot of replays because I actually land these quite often if I'm not being clear enough.
Sorry for wall of text It just seems that I've seen this move dismissed a lot where I have seen it mentioned online. However it has helped me in quite a few instances when facing people I felt I were better than me and others I felt were worse than me. I'd just like to see if anyone else has noticed this, or to be told that I should probably do x instead because I may just be seeing what I want to.
It may just be because people really don't expect it, because generally I try to jump in as if I am going to f air. when they air dodge, I throw the hand slap and generally both if not one hit will connect. It has some pretty crazy knockback. It also is really handy against people who keep air dodging your other meteors. So I think it can at least be a move that is used as a mixup.
The real use for it is that it can interrupt quick recovery moves like falco phantasm or quick attack. It may just be me but I find it difficult to time the Dair in instances like these and IMO when using aerial down b it is much easier time because due to the two hit boxes it lasts longer catching and than slamming down the opposition or just slamming if the first hit misses. I have a lot of replays because I actually land these quite often if I'm not being clear enough.
Sorry for wall of text It just seems that I've seen this move dismissed a lot where I have seen it mentioned online. However it has helped me in quite a few instances when facing people I felt I were better than me and others I felt were worse than me. I'd just like to see if anyone else has noticed this, or to be told that I should probably do x instead because I may just be seeing what I want to.
NinthWonder
Smash Apprentice
I'll return tonight after the tournament and post my findings. Hopefully I don't do too too bad.
NinthWonder
Smash Apprentice
Ended up forfeiting. I got bodied hard. Only won one match due to a fluke and didn't win any sets.
Luigi player
Smash Master
gamma1
Smash Journeyman
Want to note that I played some tourney matches against rosalina and using Down-b while rosalina was on the ledge helped. If luma was next to her, then it will end up spiking luma. Just be wary of a counter attack by rosalina. I managed to catch the rosalina off guard a few times, but just try not to be predictable.
I'm curious to know what you guys do when someones grounded by DK's Side B Headbutt (either low or high percents). I usually end up trying to hit an Up-air or some aerial when they get out, but wanted to hear yalls opinions.
Attila the Hun
Smash Ace
Will just charges dsmash for when they get out. It'd be less consistent, but usmash or fsmash would work, too.
I like either uair or nair. Nair covers it better imo, and if you soft spot it I'm pree sure you can follow up after it.
Also hey guys I exist. xD
I like either uair or nair. Nair covers it better imo, and if you soft spot it I'm pree sure you can follow up after it.
Also hey guys I exist. xD
Aninymouse
3DS Surfer
I was saying in AA's custom move thread for DK that I felt aerial down B for DK was a decent replacement for Fair. Since DK's Fair isn't much of an approach and is only to be used sparingly, DK lacks a frontal aerial approach that other characters might have, unless you count Nair. Nair is good, but aerial down B looks like it has a lot of potential for mix-ups. It's a laggy move, so I feel like no one is using it. I think it has potential.
DK has 4 different spikes he can do from the air, so I think it helps to compare them to each other to see which one you should be using.
Dair - Strong spiking power. Hits on frames 14-16. Spikes below you or very close in front of him. 54 Total frames.
Fair - Strong spiking power. Hits on frames 18-22, spikes on frames 21-22. Spikes in an arc from a slight diagonal above you to slightly below you. Strongest spike by a small amount. 55 Total frames.
Side B - Weak spiking power. Hits on frames 20-21. Spikes near DK's lower body or close in front of him. Punishable on hit until higher %'s. 63 Total frames.
Down B - Medium spiking power. Hits on frames 19-21 and spikes on frames 28-30. Spikes in an arc from diagonally above you to below you. Widest arc and longest reach by a small amount. 61 Total frames.
The standouts here are Dair and Fair. Dair is the fastest by a non-trivial amount. The rest are all about the same speed wise, but Fair is way stronger than the other two. The fact that you can DI and fastfall during Fair/Dair is very useful. The fact that you can Turnaround/B-Reverse/Wavebounce with Side B and Down B is also useful, but being unable to DI/fastfall is overall a net loss for usability.
Down B's main benefit is being able to do it facing the wrong way and being the easiest one to land due to it's arc, range, and it's overall hitbox duration. The second hit can whiff if you are falling too fast or moving too fast and pass through them, but that is pretty rare. Fair spike is better overall, but this spike has its uses.
Side B's main benefit is being able to face the wrong way and having a mini stall effect. However, it sucks as a spike though due to being too weak, too laggy, and having small reach.
Dair - Strong spiking power. Hits on frames 14-16. Spikes below you or very close in front of him. 54 Total frames.
Fair - Strong spiking power. Hits on frames 18-22, spikes on frames 21-22. Spikes in an arc from a slight diagonal above you to slightly below you. Strongest spike by a small amount. 55 Total frames.
Side B - Weak spiking power. Hits on frames 20-21. Spikes near DK's lower body or close in front of him. Punishable on hit until higher %'s. 63 Total frames.
Down B - Medium spiking power. Hits on frames 19-21 and spikes on frames 28-30. Spikes in an arc from diagonally above you to below you. Widest arc and longest reach by a small amount. 61 Total frames.
The standouts here are Dair and Fair. Dair is the fastest by a non-trivial amount. The rest are all about the same speed wise, but Fair is way stronger than the other two. The fact that you can DI and fastfall during Fair/Dair is very useful. The fact that you can Turnaround/B-Reverse/Wavebounce with Side B and Down B is also useful, but being unable to DI/fastfall is overall a net loss for usability.
Down B's main benefit is being able to do it facing the wrong way and being the easiest one to land due to it's arc, range, and it's overall hitbox duration. The second hit can whiff if you are falling too fast or moving too fast and pass through them, but that is pretty rare. Fair spike is better overall, but this spike has its uses.
Side B's main benefit is being able to face the wrong way and having a mini stall effect. However, it sucks as a spike though due to being too weak, too laggy, and having small reach.
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I asked this before but never really got an answer, what determines where an opponent lands after a cargo release? can the opponent altar where he lands in anyway? are we at a frame disadvantage? if so how much? is the frame disadvantage the same for all characters?
If someone wants to just drop as much technical knowledge about cargo release as possible I would appreciate it.
If someone wants to just drop as much technical knowledge about cargo release as possible I would appreciate it.
The distance they move after getting cargo released is character dependent for 2 reasons. The base distance they travel and the degree to which they can move around with DI both vary based the character being released. If you want to force them to be close you could pivot on the ground right before they break out, but you have to accurately guess when they break out for that to work.
We get a 1 frame advantage on everyone as far as I know. No more grab release combos on Ness and no more free punishes when DK breaks out of a grab. Essentially whoever breaks out of a grab has an extra frame of lag compared to the one who grabbed.
gamma1
Smash Journeyman
Yeah to cover get up's I usually just space myself a bit away from the ledge but facing TOWARDS the ledge instead of away. Just enough space so that down-smash covers the L/R roll get-up, and so my down tilt can reach them if they hang too long. If they jump then up-air or nair can catch them.
Aninymouse
3DS Surfer
I know there aren't slews of DK players in Smash 4 tournaments as of late, but there's a seemingly useful trick I don't think I've seen anyone pull off in a real match. Shoutouts to the DK players who inspire me not to give up.
With your opponent near the edge of the stage, with their back turned towards the edge, land a short hop nair. It should knock them off-stage and into tumble. Then just immediately walk-off dair for the kill. Pretty sure it works off the same ledge mechanic that allows you to jab lock opponents on-stage, so it should be a guaranteed kill against anyone who isn't Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Rosalina, Mr. Game & Watch, Toon Link, Samus, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Ness, Duck Hunt, Villager, Olimar, or Pac-Man.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you can pull this off, this should lead to some early kills.
Edit: I know I've seen videos of this being done, but when I'm in training mode I just can't seem to get it to work correctly. Either the opponent gets out of tumble too quickly, or I dair too late and SD (man, that dair lag is real). Was this effected by the patch, am I doing it wrong, do I just suck, etc.?
With your opponent near the edge of the stage, with their back turned towards the edge, land a short hop nair. It should knock them off-stage and into tumble. Then just immediately walk-off dair for the kill. Pretty sure it works off the same ledge mechanic that allows you to jab lock opponents on-stage, so it should be a guaranteed kill against anyone who isn't Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Rosalina, Mr. Game & Watch, Toon Link, Samus, Kirby, Jigglypuff, Ness, Duck Hunt, Villager, Olimar, or Pac-Man.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you can pull this off, this should lead to some early kills.
Edit: I know I've seen videos of this being done, but when I'm in training mode I just can't seem to get it to work correctly. Either the opponent gets out of tumble too quickly, or I dair too late and SD (man, that dair lag is real). Was this effected by the patch, am I doing it wrong, do I just suck, etc.?
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itsaxelol
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 654
ive stopped playing DK on for glory
maybe im thinking about it too much, but i honestly feel like im a big reason DK didnt get any buffs in 1.04. i imported a jp 3ds and got it on release back in september. so between the jp version and the english 3ds version, before 1.04 dropped, i had about 2000 wins with maybe 30 loses with DK. sakurai said he took wins and loses online into account when balancing. and considering how unpopular of a smash brothers character DK is (ive had maybe 4 dk dittos since september), those numbers probably skewed things into DKs favor
i just want something. hitbox problems (ftilt dtilt and fsmash gaps). range buff. smash kill power buff (his smashes arent exactly great for their start up and lag). revert his frame data back to brawls superior ones. make downthrow comboable or aerial cargo dthrow do what it used to. ill literally take anything lol
maybe im thinking about it too much, but i honestly feel like im a big reason DK didnt get any buffs in 1.04. i imported a jp 3ds and got it on release back in september. so between the jp version and the english 3ds version, before 1.04 dropped, i had about 2000 wins with maybe 30 loses with DK. sakurai said he took wins and loses online into account when balancing. and considering how unpopular of a smash brothers character DK is (ive had maybe 4 dk dittos since september), those numbers probably skewed things into DKs favor
i just want something. hitbox problems (ftilt dtilt and fsmash gaps). range buff. smash kill power buff (his smashes arent exactly great for their start up and lag). revert his frame data back to brawls superior ones. make downthrow comboable or aerial cargo dthrow do what it used to. ill literally take anything lol
Even with W/L stats like that on a relatively unpopular character, I don't think it mattered in the long run. When popular characters with abysmal win rates like Little Mac are fair game for nerfs, I don't think that's what determines who gets buffed/nerfed. Ultimately, it boils down to what the balance team/Sakurai think in regards to who feels strong and who feels weak. DK got nerfed since the E3 demo because the balance team/Sakurai felt he was too strong.
It's a shame they felt like nerfing all of his throws except Bthrow and Cargo Utoss (Uthrow was just always mediocre). It sucks how weak Usmash is and that he whiffs some moves at point blank range. It's silly how buggy his punch is and how weak/laggy his air Side B (that no longer floats...) is. Up B's silly landing pose is a travesty (I would gladly almost never use Kong Cyclone again if they fixed default Up B). Perhaps they will address some of these issues in the future, but I think your energy would be better spent organizing/voicing your complaints rather than being "superstitious" (for lack of a better term). Dropping him in the hopes that he might get buffed if his win rates decrease (from you not winning with him anymore) seems counterproductive. While ultimately nothing you do will probably matter in the long run (just being realistic), I'd say you'd have better chances of getting the changes you want through discourse.
If you must play someone else and skew their win rates, spam Rosalina/Sonic please lol. They can't be nerfed into the ground hard enough. I doubt Sheik/Diddy won't get brutally nerfed (if there is another balance patch), so no need to hop on that train.
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Has anyone messed around with JC Glide toss? with diddy being one of the most common characters I think it is worth people practicing imo.
All I have thought of is a little mix up where you do jc glide toss banana into either jab/d tilt or into side-b. If the nanner hits either way your good. If they shield the nanner they can't do anything out of shield if you do jab/d tilt (this is just a theory not sure how many frames of advantage you would have but it seems like when you glide toss a nanner and they shield it you are at a slight advantage) , and if they stay in shield to block a follow up you do side-b and break the shield.
Just throwing stuff out there so we can get some thoughts on dk's item game.
All I have thought of is a little mix up where you do jc glide toss banana into either jab/d tilt or into side-b. If the nanner hits either way your good. If they shield the nanner they can't do anything out of shield if you do jab/d tilt (this is just a theory not sure how many frames of advantage you would have but it seems like when you glide toss a nanner and they shield it you are at a slight advantage) , and if they stay in shield to block a follow up you do side-b and break the shield.
Just throwing stuff out there so we can get some thoughts on dk's item game.
gamma1
Smash Journeyman
Not sure if it was mentioned before, but when I did a cargo grabbed down throw, I was able to re-grab the opponent right afterwards. There was no grab immunity. Don't know how useful it is, but thought it certainly was interesting.
toadster101
Banned via Warnings
I can't say I blame you. He was mediocre at best in Brawl, and yet here we are, complaining that his reach isn't long enough. Personally, I just want more vertical recovery. It's pretty much impossible to gimp people online because even a half a second of input lag will screw you over. At least they finally gave him his trademark roll four games later. Hopefully we don't have to wait another four games in order to get a recovery and Final Smash that aren't abysmal. Was Sakurai bitten by a monkey as a child? Honestly.
meleebrawler
Smash Hero
I'm pretty sure having mediocre recovery is standard for a heavy, to counterbalance
how long they survive naturally. (Except Dedede and Charizard when he learned Flare Blitz,
or better yet, Dragon Rush).
At least there's Kong Cyclone. Faster and trolls edgeguards with wind.
Only other recovery options I could see for him are either Barrel Cannons or Rocket.
The rocket would probably look kind of funny on the more realistically depicted Smash DK
though.