Meta Donkey Kong Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[toadster101]

I'm pretty sure having mediocre recovery is standard for a heavy, to counterbalance
how long they survive naturally. (Except Dedede and Charizard when he learned Flare Blitz,
or better yet, Dragon Rush).

Bowser, Charizard, and Dedede all have great recoveries, so... I'm not sure where you're getting those statistics from.

DK's recovery isn't mediocre, it's horrible.

At least there's Kong Cyclone. Faster and trolls edgeguards with wind.
Only other recovery options I could see for him are either Barrel Cannons or Rocket.
The rocket would probably look kind of funny on the more realistically depicted Smash DK
though.

Custom moves are irrelevant unless Nintendo releases a code that unlocks them all. Whoever thought RNG was a good unlock method deserves to be fired on the spot. I've played the game for over 200 hours and I'm still missing some custom moves.

 

[meleebrawler]

Bowser, Charizard, and Dedede all have great recoveries, so... I'm not sure where you're getting those statistics from.

DK's recovery isn't mediocre, it's horrible.


Custom moves are irrelevant unless Nintendo releases a code that unlocks them all. Whoever thought RNG was a good unlock method deserves to be fired on the spot. I've played the game for over 200 hours and I'm still missing some custom moves.

How is Bowser's recovery better than DK's? (Except vertically).

Think of DK's recovery this way. He's very resistant to semi-spikes (horizontal trajectory)
in exchange for greater vulnerability to normal ones.

 

[Daxter]

After trying out the rest of the roster, I've returned to my favourite Ninty character. He's hard to learn though. Most of the tricks discussed here are admittedly over my head and I forget them in the heat of battle. I learn better by doing than thinking, so I would like to do some offline training drills to drill these tricks into my head. Can anyone help please? In particular I'd like to learn:

- DIing
- Reverse back-airs
- Roll cancel grabs
- Gimps

I know some of these are basic, but I still don't get them XD

 

[CommanderVimes]

I would like to do some offline training drills to drill these tricks into my head. Can anyone help please? In particular I'd like to learn:

- DIing
- Reverse back-airs
- Roll cancel grabs
- Gimps

I know some of these are basic, but I still don't get them XD

So uh, tl-dr:
-mash out roll cancel grabs and pivot techniques in training mode (first on your own, later against Attack)
-Knock A.I offstage a lot for gimps. Set to a decent percent to make it faster. Try using moves with lots of different angles to vary the AIs recovery (they have a tendency to recover high most of the time). Get used to the startup/applications of his many gimping moves.
-Allow the A.I to grab ledges too, and practice the spacing where you can punish get-up options with the options below. Less sexy than gimps but still important. Note A.I seems to have a tendency to use jumping get-ups (to me at least).

Should not take too long to get roll cancel grabs (at least forward), the timing is not too strict. Hammer them out in training mode, then set the AI to attack and see which situations it is useful and what its range is. Basically you start a roll out of neutral but immediately press A after inputting the command (its very similar to Plinking if you are familiar with the term from SFIV). You'll know you are doing it correctly if you see a spark during your grab animation. You cannot do it out of shield, but you can do it during a foxtrot, so that could be a useful application of the tech once you get it down.
Is DK's Rcg a noticeable improvement over dash grab? I haven't noticed much of a difference myself.

Reverse back-airing seems integral with DK, and again there's no better way to practice than to mash it out in training mode and later against a moving opponent. Make sure that you hammer backwards during the run before hitting jump, and work on making the gap between those inputs tighter and tighter.
It isn't just back-airing, lots of stuff with DK require this quick back input: b-reversing Primate Punch, pivot grabbing, and pivot f-tilt will level up your game as well so I recommend practicing these while working on reverse airs.

Really working on gimps vs. AI seems trickier, but not impossible. They seem to have rather predictable recoveries, but you can work on getting used to DK's tools, most importantly his jump height and move startups. You have a TON of spikes, but don't forget that a b-airs and u-airs can be just as much if not more effective. Be a little reckless in your gimps early on, it will help in learning when it is good to go offstage and when it'll get you killed.
Later on, I'd also practice recovery denial in addition to offstage gimping. DK is good at covering a multitude of get-up options with the proper spacing (spaced Dsmash, downB, U-air, pivot grab).

 

[Gedden]

The best way to play DK is by learning how to read your opponent and being patient... But once they read you its over... DK needs MAJOR buffs!

 

[itsaxelol]

ive been doing this for a while but havent put a video up on it. i busted a few out on darkjaws the other night and i know he hated me. figured i would post this one i just did on anthers ladder

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXmYTibqd3XNlYwU0QtSWFXN2c/view?usp=sharing

the only thing stopping this from being pretty useful is the timing of the pivot. i slowed down so you can all notice. the pivot that makes you face the stage makes this move safe. you will downthrow immediately, so you wont be going down to far before you can recover. in a perfect execution, you wont suicide, and you wouldnt be able to kill them from a backthrow. teching would be the only real issue. regardless, its a good mix up. plus how much ****in style is in a kill like that. makes my weiner hard

 

[Big O]

ive been doing this for a while but havent put a video up on it. i busted a few out on darkjaws the other night and i know he hated me. figured i would post this one i just did on anthers ladder

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXmYTibqd3XNlYwU0QtSWFXN2c/view?usp=sharing

the only thing stopping this from being pretty useful is the timing of the pivot. i slowed down so you can all notice. the pivot that makes you face the stage makes this move safe. you will downthrow immediately, so you wont be going down to far before you can recover. in a perfect execution, you wont suicide, and you wouldnt be able to kill them from a backthrow. teching would be the only real issue. regardless, its a good mix up. plus how much ****in style is in a kill like that. makes my weiner hard

I actually found out about this shortly after we played our matches. While practicing the Utoss powerbomb on Lylat I stumbled upon this. I forgot about posting it though lol. The best part is it seems to work on more stages than the Cargo Utoss powerbomb. I've probably died more times than I've killed when using it online due to lag, but it is really good.

 

[itsaxelol]

I actually found out about this shortly after we played our matches. While practicing the Utoss powerbomb on Lylat I stumbled upon this. I forgot about posting it though lol. The best part is it seems to work on more stages than the Cargo Utoss powerbomb. I've probably died more times than I've killed when using it online due to lag, but it is really good.

yea, the uthrow one is great on certain stages. lylat obviously is the best and i will make every argument in the world for lylat being a great CP for dk (i used to say the best. and then in one of our matches big o, my grounded up b turned into an aerial upb when the ship moved and i literally up b'd off the stage. i couldnt believe it and i had no idea they made the level do that. that was not in brawl). any very thin stage like the ****ty mario cart or delfino is usually good and safe since uthrow has no lag. but like you said, i think if timing is mastered, dthrow powerbomb 9/10 times would be the way to go; because they spend less time in the grab. its really easy to break out of grabs in this game, so getting the move done quickly is best

im wondering if i will run into any issues with them breaking out just as i downthrow, resulting in me doing a dair to my death. i dont know if a move buffers during the frames of a aerial cargo release. the fact that i havent had that happen to me yet though is definitely a good sign

 

[Big-Cat]

After trying out the rest of the roster, I've returned to my favourite Ninty character. He's hard to learn though. Most of the tricks discussed here are admittedly over my head and I forget them in the heat of battle. I learn better by doing than thinking, so I would like to do some offline training drills to drill these tricks into my head. Can anyone help please? In particular I'd like to learn:

- DIing
- Reverse back-airs
- Roll cancel grabs
- Gimps

I know some of these are basic, but I still don't get them XD

Are you asking how to DI or how to counter it? If it's the former, your DI inputs are 90 degrees left and right of the angle you're launched. If you're launched at 45 degrees, input 135 to raise the height of your trajectory and 315 for lowering the height. Don't bother trying to memorize all the trajectory angles. You'll learn them a lot faster than you think if you just play the game.

 

[Jeroen Schaafsma]

So.. I read that now custom moves will be allowed at certain tournaments. Which I personally think is great! Especially for Donkey Kong, his Storm Punch neutral B is terrific and gives the big ape some utility at last.. Without feeling overpowered mind you.

However, what will be done about his Spinning Kong up + B you think? Hyperarmor, wind, dmg, spammable. And GREAT horizontal recovery, the exact same amount of his normal recovery without ANY of the downsides.

To me it seems like they messed up somewhere, considering his Chopper Kong has no damage, and less total recovery. I feel like Chopper Kong was the one intended to have the wind, damage and hyper armor. Do you think this would fix this clearly broken attack?

Because let's be honest, the up+B one Donkey's standard moveset could use a bit of umph, but not without sacrificing one aspect.

My suggestion:

Leave standard up+B as is.

Make Spinning Kong do no damage, but keep the and hyperarmor and recovery. A "get out of jail free card" but nothing else.

Give Chopper Kong the wind, hyperarmor and damage, at the expense of the lackluster recovery it gives. Also, this causes it to become NOT spammable considering you take to the sky when you pull it off on the ground and will be open for counters. Unlike how it is now, with you staying on the ground with much less of a time-frame for counters. So this gives you a strong air juggle, but a less strong recovery. A trade-off, as it should be.

Thoughts?

 

[itsaxelol]

whats hyper armor? chopper has super armor on it. it also has less vertical recovery

i honestly dont see why you would suggest this. its awful. why do you want to completely nerf his best custom and make it almost completely useless?

edit - by chopper i meant cyclone

 

[Big O]

So.. I read that now custom moves will be allowed at certain tournaments. Which I personally think is great! Especially for Donkey Kong, his Storm Punch neutral B is terrific and gives the big ape some utility at last.. Without feeling overpowered mind you.

However, what will be done about his Spinning Kong up + B you think? Hyperarmor, wind, dmg, spammable. And GREAT horizontal recovery, the exact same amount of his normal recovery without ANY of the downsides.

To me it seems like they messed up somewhere, considering his Chopper Kong has no damage, and less total recovery. I feel like Chopper Kong was the one intended to have the wind, damage and hyper armor. Do you think this would fix this clearly broken attack?

Because let's be honest, the up+B one Donkey's standard moveset could use a bit of umph, but not without sacrificing one aspect.

My suggestion:

Leave standard up+B as is.

Make Spinning Kong do no damage, but keep the and hyperarmor and recovery. A "get out of jail free card" but nothing else.

Give Chopper Kong the wind, hyperarmor and damage, at the expense of the lackluster recovery it gives. Also, this causes it to become NOT spammable considering you take to the sky when you pull it off on the ground and will be open for counters. Unlike how it is now, with you staying on the ground with much less of a time-frame for counters. So this gives you a strong air juggle, but a less strong recovery. A trade-off, as it should be.

Thoughts?

Default Up B is Spinning Kong. Chopper Kong is the useless vertical Up B. Kong Cyclone is the one with wind, super armor in the air, and smooth platform canceling.

While it is interesting and baffling how bad Chopper Kong is and how good Kong Cyclone is, I don't think they need to be "equalized" and both made into mediocre moves. Honestly, all that really should be done is giving the default Up B the smooth platform transitioning instead of always getting that awful flexing pose and making the grounded version combo into itself reliably. Chopper Kong needs to be deleted a powerful hitbox and better horizontal mobility so it isn't 100% obsolete. Now he has 3 viable choices.

 

[Jeroen Schaafsma]

Default Up B is Spinning Kong. Chopper Kong is the useless vertical Up B. Kong Cyclone is the one with wind, super armor in the air, and smooth platform canceling.

While it is interesting and baffling how bad Chopper Kong is and how good Kong Cyclone is, I don't think they need to be "equalized" and both made into mediocre moves. Honestly, all that really should be done is giving the default Up B the smooth platform transitioning instead of always getting that awful flexing pose and making the grounded version combo into itself reliably. Chopper Kong needs to be deleted a powerful hitbox and better horizontal mobility so it isn't 100% obsolete. Now he has 3 viable choices.

I agree, but when it comes to recovery, I believe Kong Cyclone gives zero counterplay options. I know because I play the Kong. It's kind of hard to believe they intended it to have all these features and have Chopper Kong give like.. zero benefits. Makes me wonder if they screwed up. I also think the wind on it is kind of wonky lol. I've had people go off stage badly just from the pull of it, while other times they barely get sucked in.

Also, with equalized, I mean they should be GOOD, but not THAT good. I agree that the other two recoveries are lackluster. Just that Kong Cyclone is like, five steps up. Even without the wind added it would be a great move.

 

[Jeroen Schaafsma]

whats hyper armor? chopper has super armor on it. it also has less vertical recovery

i honestly dont see why you would suggest this. its awful. why do you want to completely nerf his best custom and make it almost completely useless?

edit - by chopper i meant cyclone

My bad. I meant super armor I didn't know the correct term. All I know is that even counterattacks will not stop it and still get sucked in and hit, so yeah. I'm not saying nerf it completely, but as it stands it's a little too good in my opinion. I've only been slapped out of the attack in random scenarios, where the armor didn't work for some reason during the middle of the attack. These are rare cases though. Most of the time anyone trying to get me off stage with an air attack will have to eat the attack, wether attacking from the top, bottom or the side, after which they can expect to get juggled with said attack, unless they have a teleport like Zelda to get to the ground safely. Which kind of implies broken to me at least.

 

[MaximalGFX]

Keep in mind those will only works if your opponent miss his tech after your nair.

I suck at footstool, I am sure there is a thousand better possibilities here, but I am struggling simply getting a footstool... (I wasn't much of a brawl player). Feel free to add to this thread if you find any other cool japlock / footstool DK combos!

 

[Kohak]

So today some guys and Ingot together for some friendlies. Customs were on and everyone seemed to be getting wrecked by DKs custom up B- the tornado whirlwind one. How in the world are you supposed to punish that? It has insane priority, 0 landing lag on platforms, superarmor, and comes out really quick.

 

[Gloman600]

What do you guys do with a grab in this game? I've just been going straight to Bthrow most of the time for damage since I can't seem to get any good followups off of Dthrow or Cargo -> Dthrow but it seems braindead and seems like there are some other options I'm not thinking of.

i like to back throw the opponent typically jumps back towards you so you can meet him and uair or bair if the opponent has a bad/not threatening dair throw their ass up in the air and make reads uair to utilts to a grounded up b serious damage

 

[S_B]

Bowser, Charizard, and Dedede all have great recoveries, so... I'm not sure where you're getting those statistics from.

Charizard's is meh, unless you mean horizontal. Bowser's is easy to punish if you know where the Bowser player is going.

D3's is easily the best and he can float in the air for damn ever...
.
But yeah, DK's is TRASH. I wish they had given it the same functionality as Bowser's in that mashing B while using it makes you rise higher...

 

[DK_Crew64]

did you guys know that if you get the headbutt (side b) and follow up with a ff dair, you get a garaunteed up air
which is 39 % true combo :D

 

[Azazel]

did you guys know that if you get the headbutt (side b) and follow up with a ff dair, you get a garaunteed up air
which is 39 % true combo :D

they can tech the dair, mash out of teh side B.

if they don't do any of those and we are talking about damage, why settle with an uair, when there is enough hitstun to connect with a giant punch?

 

[GiMiX]

ive been doing this for a while but havent put a video up on it. i busted a few out on darkjaws the other night and i know he hated me. figured i would post this one i just did on anthers ladder

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwXmYTibqd3XNlYwU0QtSWFXN2c/view?usp=sharing

the only thing stopping this from being pretty useful is the timing of the pivot. i slowed down so you can all notice. the pivot that makes you face the stage makes this move safe. you will downthrow immediately, so you wont be going down to far before you can recover. in a perfect execution, you wont suicide, and you wouldnt be able to kill them from a backthrow. teching would be the only real issue. regardless, its a good mix up. plus how much ****in style is in a kill like that. makes my weiner hard

BRuuuuuhhh....

 

[itsaxelol]

BRuuuuuhhh....

yea its pretty awesome. some stages have a sweetspot on the ledge and it makes it sick. its a great mix and a good tool in the kings arsenal

edit - i take back the "only thing that stops it from being useful is the timing of the pivot". because the timing is second nature now. i rarely mess it up. its just everything needs to be done quickly and precisely, before they get out. the mash timer in smash 4 is less than brawl and i dont think cargo hold resets the mash timer

 

[GiMiX]

Yeah I was a big fan of the cargo wall spike in brawl, so it's good to see it's still in this. I can do the up throw wall spike on some stages like omega mario circuit and lylat cruise because it doesn't require that precise pivot haha. After seeing this happen in a real match, I'm a little motivated to give it some practice.

I really hope he gets better angles on his cargo throws and less delay or something in the coming patch, his throws aren't that great for a character who's effectively supposed to be zangief in this game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah I was a big fan of the cargo wall spike in brawl, so it's good to see it's still in this. I can do the up throw wall spike on some stages like omega mario circuit and lylat cruise because it doesn't require that precise pivot haha. After seeing this happen in a real match, I'm a little motivated to give it some practice.

I really hope he gets better angles on his cargo throws and less delay or something in the coming patch, his throws aren't that great for a character who's effectively supposed to be zangief in this game.

Pretty sure Bowser is closer to Zangief, with his Flying Slam (Spinning Piledriver) and slower movement.
DK does have a noob-rage inducing lariat though (Kong Cyclone).

 

[GiMiX]

Yeah it's mainly because I reserved Bowser for Hugo. They literally have the exact same grab and heavy kick (forward smash).
I compare everyone to SF4/Marvel characters for some reason, when I'm deciding to play characters.

I main Nova, and recently realized how much I enjoy playing Cpt. Falcon.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yeah it's mainly because I reserved Bowser for Hugo. They literally have the exact same grab and heavy kick (forward smash).
I compare everyone to SF4/Marvel characters for some reason, when I'm deciding to play characters.

I main Nova, and recently realized how much I enjoy playing Cpt. Falcon.

Guess I main strider hiryu :D (greninja)

Back on topic, would you fellow kongs consider donkey kong a fundamental character (that is, he mostly or completely relies on fundamentals)? I ask this because I notice that when I play kong vs greninja, I rely more on reads and being patient. Most importantly, I "feel" my opponent a lot more when I'm playing as donkey kong.

 

[GiMiX]

Yeah I feel like playing DK made me a better smasher. He's a punish character because of his move set. That's why you play more patiently and feel out your opponent.
His forward b for instance punishes shields, his up b punishes rolls and powers through projectiles and his neutral B is like the ultimate punish.
Not to mention he doesn't have much attacks he can throw out safely; each attack is a commitment lol

 

[MaximalGFX]

Be careful when you use an aerial Giant Punch. Your opponent could tech it... Be ready to react. This just happened to me.

Spoiler

 

[GiMiX]

What the actual **** sakurai.

 

[itsaxelol]

wow thats nuts. the bowser didnt even tech it. nor did he bounce up. i dont even know how to explain what the game thought was happening

 

[GiMiX]

Does DK's areal Giant Punch have some kind of spike hit box?

 

[MaximalGFX]

wow thats nuts. the bowser didnt even tech it. nor did he bounce up. i dont even know how to explain what the game thought was happening

Yeah I guess that wasn't even a tech... The giant punch can send people at a very weird angle when you use it in the air OR it's some weird property of Bowser neutral B I don't know about...

 

[Flamemaster96]

any thoughts on the DK vs Greninja MU?

 

[Big O]

any thoughts on the DK vs Greninja MU?

In general, if you have a question regarding a MU that hasn't been discussed yet, feel free to talk about it here. If you want, you can ask @CELTiiC to focus on the MU you want in the next wave of discussions.

Anyways, there was some discussion on this MU like a month ago on the Greninja boards here. It starts at the bottom of the page and continues for a little bit afterwards. Outside of dash grabs, he doesn't really have a threatening method of approach. Don't get hit by charged Water Shurikens, be on the lookout for Shadow Sneak while he is recovering, respect his Usmash/Fair, and always jump out of his throws/combo starters. Do those things and he stops being scary.

 

[MaximalGFX]

Do you guys have any tips on how to mix up my approaches with DK? 90% of the time I simply short hop/double jump and space out a Bair to approach, I mix it up with a side-B if I see they always try to shield grab me... But that's pretty much all I do. It works decently most of the time, but I would like to be less predictable.

Whats your favorite way to approach? Short hop Nair is hard to space out and is no better than Bair... Dash attack is a no no. Dash grab works sometimes, but DK is kinda slow. Empty hop maybe..?

 

[itsaxelol]

Do you guys have any tips on how to mix up my approaches with DK? 90% of the time I simply short hop/double jump and space out a Bair to approach, I mix it up with a side-B if I see they always try to shield grab me... But that's pretty much all I do. It works decently most of the time, but I would like to be less predictable.

Whats your favorite way to approach? Short hop Nair is hard to space out and is no better than Bair... Dash attack is a no no. Dash grab works sometimes, but DK is kinda slow. Empty hop maybe..?

You pretty much nailed it. Can use up b massive biceps or down b earthquake if you're strictly speaking mix ups. But other than that the king doesn't have many safe approaches

 

[MaximalGFX]

You pretty much nailed it. Can use up b massive biceps or down b earthquake if you're strictly speaking mix ups. But other than that the king doesn't have many safe approaches

Hmm I NEVER use Up B on the ground... it so laggy and feels so easy to punish. Maybe I am wrong on that.. I'll try to use it more in the next few days, see how it goes.

Also, do you guys ever pivot grab/ tilt when crossing someone? On paper it sounds like a good idea, but crossing someone on the ground takes so long with DK! I just get jab or grab when I try it.

 

[Big O]

Who do you guys feel are DK's easiest MU's and DK's hardest MU's?

Easy - Jiggs, G&W, Falco, Little Mac, Lucina

Hard - ZSS, Olimar, Rosalina, Sonic, Diddy

 

[Metalbro]

I can't really thing of any easy MU's but hard ones come to me much faster. haha

Hard - DHD, Yoshi, ZSS, Sonic, and Diddy are up there. I'd say Sheik since she combos the crap out of us but her light weight and lacking kill power gives us an opportunity to make it back. Same goes for Pikachu.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

I didn't realize how frustrating fighting Robin was. Arcfire and Arcthunder just straight up shut you down and lead to grab combos and spell chains, Levin Sword can't be challenged, and edgeguarding is super risky because if they air dodge and end up inside DK, Elwind is a near guaranteed spike and KO.