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Meta Donkey Kong Competitive and Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Krynxe
- Start date
DK's Cargo throws don't give them grab immunity at all. This leads to some hilarious team infinites/combos.
Zard lover Doom Desire
Smash Journeyman
Alright fellow expanders of the dong, how does this thread work? I'm used to the Charizard matchup thread.
This is just where you talk about various DK meta stuff. Things like combos, where you place him on the tier list, talking about hard/easy/tricky MU's, AT's, stage counterpicks, and a bunch of other general competitive gameplay topics. The MU thread is currently pretty inactive, but you are free to discuss or request MU's to be covered in that thread.
Zard lover Doom Desire
Smash Journeyman
Well, the low tiers do tend to have pretty quiet threads, huh? Anyway, I think we may have at least an even matchup with Link, if not favorable. I played a Link yesterday that completely destroyed my Ganondorf, I decided to test my dong against him and I ended up winning the set. I don't know if he was simply inexperienced in the matchup or there's something bright in DK's future in terms of meta advancements.
DK-RULES
Smash Apprentice
Can someone point me in the direction of a video or site that explains how to do the cargo quick air turnaround down stage spike?
Zard lover Doom Desire
Smash Journeyman
You don't quickly turn around, it's just a cargo back throw...at least that's what seems logical to me.
No he's talking about the pivot offstage dthrow spike
Pretty sure you have to pivot right on the edge so that your momentum takes you off-stage
Chrome Kingfisher
Smash Rookie
Is there a competitive discussion for doubles and doubles combos?
Zard lover Doom Desire
Smash Journeyman
Sadly, I don't think so.
You can talk about it here, or make a thread for it if you think more people will discuss it that way.
DK-RULES
Smash Apprentice
Does anyone have any good strategies versus good greninja's? Or videos?
Seems to be a surge of them lately, locally and online.
Seems to be a surge of them lately, locally and online.
Chrome Kingfisher
Smash Rookie
So, does anyone have any combos or set-ups or ideas for doubles matches? Specifically with DK and Peach?
In general the only things I really watch out for against him are Usmash, charged shurikens, and combo starting (deep) Nairs. He can't trade favorably with you except with his slow Fair, so just stick to footsies and try to outspace him. I would say spacing Bair is a safe bet against him because his shield grab is slow. AC Nair is also pretty safe because of that as well. If he goes for a lot of dash grabs, throw out some jabs or pivot grabs in response. You can pretty much jump out of all his throw combos until pretty high %'s, at which point seem more like 50-50 setups than anything really guaranteed.
DK + Peach is a pretty good team. Peach floating while DK Down B's is a very scary setup. Footstooling someone during DK's Down B is like a sports car (0-60 in 2 seconds lol). Peach's air dominance compliments DK's ground game. She can give you turnips. Your Cargo throws easily convert to team combos (throw into Peach Dair + w/e to DK finisher). I think you can trigger her Neutral B safely with Down B as well while she is in the air.
The shield pressure they bring to the table is also pretty crazy in general. Her multi-hits give you time to Punch/Side B and break them. Your Down B plus like any of her aerials breaks shields. Peach in general is very safe and has generous hitboxes suitable for crowd control.
I remember before the Dong patch Will posted a video of jump-cargo uthrow into a 10-wind. If I remember correctly non-fully charged punches have a hitbox behind DK's shoulder which does like 25%. Is this still a legit cargo follow up? Does anyone know the percent ranges it works in?
To be honest, it was better (specifically for leading into uncharged punches) before the Cargo Utoss patch changes. At the current %'s you could actually start comboing into it, they are pretty much already in the Uair KO% range. The old Cargo Utoss was also better at abusing Delfino/Halberd blastzones too. The new Cargo Utoss is amazing and definitely better overall, but too many people overlook what DK could do with the old one (especially with GCUT).
EnderBurrfoot
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2015
- Messages
- 6
- NNID
- Enderburrfoot
Just curious, how does DK get grabs at higher levels of play? Are there any attacks that combo into Grab? Or are we stuck with hard reads?
Dash-shield and pivot grabbing are the most reliable ways. If you just fish for grabs it won't work though. You need to throw out RAR bairs to make them feel threatened by other options. RAR empty hops into dash-shield can work a lot if you mix it up.
Don't think anything combos into grab except for a dtilt trip
DkDaggers
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2015
- Messages
- 20
Tipper jab combos into grab from mid percents onwards. It's far safer than going for a raw grab, tacks on a bit more percent, and throws out a hitbox. There are other setups too, for example weak dash attack combos to jab at low percents. Another very situational one is from the top platform of battlefield, dair to an opponent jumping up will combo into grab if they miss their tech.
Chrome Kingfisher
Smash Rookie
I've actually had trouble finding doubles discussion in general. After trying some of this stuff, can you explain this in more detail and do you have basic doubles tips. Like, how to operate as a team and what we should be doing differently compared to singles.
DK sucks at brawling up close with multiple opponents due to his size, bad CQC (close quarters combat), and endlag on his attacks. You are also prone to hitting your partner with his AoE-like attacks. What you do to play around those things is to basically hang back and be the support/stock tank for the team. You let your partner handle the enemy 1v2 and support him with some disruptive attacks. You generally want to sandwich the other team and have them focus on your teammate instead of you. If you separate into 2 1v1's, try to be on the outside rather than the inside because you will probably get wrecked by stray hits from everyone if you are in the middle. If they double team you, you have to either stall/run away (if you are faster than them it's not too hard) or fend them off with Bair.
DK does best in doubles when played as an opportunist. While they are distracted, use your punch to seal stocks. Spacing with your long reaching attacks to safely poke at the enemy is also key. Use Down B for offensive crowd control and Up B for defensive crowd control. Defend yourself with Jab, Bair, Up B, and Pivot Grabs. DK has a lot of moves that can hit all around him, but you need to be extra careful with moves that hit in front of you and behind you at the same time (Dsmash and Down B).
Grabs are pretty much the bread and butter of your 2v1 wombo combos. DK is probably the best at starting team combos with his grabs, especially since he can move during his throws. He can throw them at 7 different angles from his Cargo Hold (straight up with Cargo UT and 3 pairs of mirrored angles with Cargo BT, FT, and DT). DK can even just hand deliver a grab release in front of your partner for easy mode followups.
Another 2v1 staple is using Down B while your partner is airborne (or far enough away behind them) for some really good pressure. DK seals their grounded options while your partner either deals with their air options or capitalizes on their disadvantage state.
DK's pretty bad at 1v2 and relies on poor coordination/grouping to really stand a chance at it. You have to pretty much commit to only using your safest moves and occasional usage of your AoE-like attacks when they group poorly. Just try not to get sandwiched and stick to separating them quickly and efficiently.
If the other team has a better and more abusive win condition than you (like Bucket/Pocket teams or ZSS/MK Rufio combos) you have to really put an emphasis on interrupting them. Half of being able to interrupt them is being available to stop it and the other half is preventative measures. Be aware of when your partner might be vulnerable to the setup and try not to commit to anything while your partner is exposed. Preventative measures just boils down to giving them no breathing room and/or keeping them separated. Which method works best depends on the nature of their setup. Bucket/Pocket teams need to be given 0 breathing room, while the KO combo teams require team intervention to shut them down.
Duck SMASH!
Smash Journeyman
So.... I'm a former Bowser main frustrated by Sakurai's unwillingness to fix some critical issues with one of my favourite characters.
In the process of looking for a substitute heavy to compliment my Bowser Jr., I've also been considering DK, who I loved using in Melee and Brawl and stopped using in this game due to his initial flaws pre patch, but am now reconsidering because of all the buffs this ape has gotten over the recent patches.
I'm hoping my skill with Bowser can mostly translate to DK as well, and I love the grapple game and Dair spikes that both characters have.
If you guys had to compare Bowser and DK how much overlap would you say there is in the skills needed to play these characters? Would it be an easy transition?
In the process of looking for a substitute heavy to compliment my Bowser Jr., I've also been considering DK, who I loved using in Melee and Brawl and stopped using in this game due to his initial flaws pre patch, but am now reconsidering because of all the buffs this ape has gotten over the recent patches.
I'm hoping my skill with Bowser can mostly translate to DK as well, and I love the grapple game and Dair spikes that both characters have.
If you guys had to compare Bowser and DK how much overlap would you say there is in the skills needed to play these characters? Would it be an easy transition?
Just going to post some stuff, most of it is probably already known but w/e
At low percents, dash attack at the ledge can lead into a fair spike if you catch them off-guard. It's not guaranteed but it's very safe, so the risk-reward is good.
Similarly, dtilt at the ledge can lead into a dair spike. It's pretty safe on whiff too because you can just bair to cover your ledge-snap if you don't want to jump back on-stage
At higher percents on stages with lips, you can cargo them offstage and go right under the lip. Instead of throwing them, let them release. They'll be trapped between you and the lip with no room, and you can upb for a stage spike. The reason why this is so good is because it's really hard to tech an upb against a wall.
The biggest difference that you have to get used to is that DK doesn't have a quick fair, and uses bair a lot more. So RARing (reverse aerial rush, which basically means running and then turning around before you jump so your back is facing them) is a significant part of his meta.
DK is a bit more technical than Bowser, so it'll probably take a bit of time before your DK gets better than your Bowser. The investment is worth it though because he's more complex and just better overall. I used to play Bowser but now that I'm starting to develop my DK properly it's hard for me to play Bowser because he just feels like a slower, more one-dimensional version of DK.
At low percents, dash attack at the ledge can lead into a fair spike if you catch them off-guard. It's not guaranteed but it's very safe, so the risk-reward is good.
Similarly, dtilt at the ledge can lead into a dair spike. It's pretty safe on whiff too because you can just bair to cover your ledge-snap if you don't want to jump back on-stage
At higher percents on stages with lips, you can cargo them offstage and go right under the lip. Instead of throwing them, let them release. They'll be trapped between you and the lip with no room, and you can upb for a stage spike. The reason why this is so good is because it's really hard to tech an upb against a wall.
There's a lot of overlap. Their boxing games and their grab games are pretty similar, as are the situations where you'd use their upbs. Just remember that dashgrab isn't as good for DK as it is for Bowser.
The biggest difference that you have to get used to is that DK doesn't have a quick fair, and uses bair a lot more. So RARing (reverse aerial rush, which basically means running and then turning around before you jump so your back is facing them) is a significant part of his meta.
DK is a bit more technical than Bowser, so it'll probably take a bit of time before your DK gets better than your Bowser. The investment is worth it though because he's more complex and just better overall. I used to play Bowser but now that I'm starting to develop my DK properly it's hard for me to play Bowser because he just feels like a slower, more one-dimensional version of DK.
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Zombie Saurian
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2014
- Messages
- 485
Hey so I was wondering if anyone here has seen or executes this tech. in Smash 4? My success rate is pretty high with it, but is a little tricky to pull off. It can kill as early as 60 for some characters and works best on sloped ledges or ledges that have a flat bottom. Here's myself executing the move.
I answered you in the other thread, but I'll do it again so other people can see. It's known and the spike can be teched, but you may catch someone off-guard with it.
Zombie Saurian
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2014
- Messages
- 485
Yup! It's a crap ton of fun to pull off!
Proto_DLN000
Smash Rookie
I think Donkey Kong may have a potential low percent kill situation (Kinda like a 50/50 I guess? I dunno.) using cargo dthrow to fair spike. if you jump and dthrow in the same fashion you would a cargo uthrow while near the ledge, if you immediately move into a fair (Not sure if you have to buffer it.) it can connect and since it's so powerful it can kill rather early on characters with poor recovery. The small amount of testing I have done with it shows that if the opponent jumps or simply allows themselves to remain in tumble or to fall down towards the ledge, the hit will connect and potentially lead to a stock if not outright. I haven't had the chance to particularly test it, but I theorize that the only way out is to fastfall to the ledge or airdodging with or without jumping.
Proto_DLN000
Smash Rookie
Looking into it a little more you may be able to DI out and the range is specific. Not sure what exact factors play into it though. I've only landed it on taller characters (Falco, Robin, Rosaluma.) and mostly because it was not expected. It's worth noting that it only works until about 30 on a character of a weight like Falco. I'm going to attempt to find general conditions for this to work throughout weight classes.
The thing about this is that it is a good surprise mixup. When I have landed it, it's because the opponent attempted to DI for a cargo up toss, away from the ledge, only to get smacked with a fair spike. The window to react to it is about 45 frames, so a decent amount of time for an opponent, but maybe this is still something to take advantage of.
Problem is that if it's between 0-20, you're sacrificing a guaranteed 40-50% for a mix up which has high reward but seemingly several counterplay options.
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Keet
Smash Journeyman
True, but it's definitely something nice to know. I will be trying this out today and seeing if I can mix some people up with it.
Jorgesmash365
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2015
- Messages
- 17
I've found out some combos with DK utilizing his frame cancelled forward air
DanDanChan
Smash Rookie
Liiiiike? Don't hold out on your fellow kongs!
McKnightlíght
Getting back into the dunk game
The problem with fighting DK, especially with slower-moving or shorter-ranged characters is that he has a lot of I-frames on moves you don't think he'd have. I'm not sure if he always had I-frames since 64 or Melee, but some of them are ludicrous like his Utilt if I remember correctly has more I-frames than Bowser's. Let's assume they, the Samus players, know. They're going to be afraid, really afraid since if they mess up, they're eating percent they cannot avoid nor counter. Samus's projectiles are okay, but DK moves fast for a heavyweight and while his air acceleration's not good, his air speed is.
The other thing is, I don't follow Japan's scene much, but I don't think DK or Samus are common characters used in tournaments. That's going to be another edge against both if them. Especially for this MU, the players might be going, "What are we supposed to do and not supposed to do?" Figuring things on the fly isn't easy. Some people even try the same thing despite it failing over and over. In a set with Rice's Falco, he tried over and over to jab mixup 1UP's Luigi and over and over, he ate Nair and Uair which 1UP probably mashed, figured it worked all the time, and tacked on 11% to 12% per 5% Rice tried with Falco's jab. It was really stupid not from a, "Why is this (button-mashing) allowed?", but also a, "Rice, why do you keep doing this hoping it'll change?" It's when you know some details of a character you start to do things to avoid or counter it like people don't know Mario's Up Smash is invincible, sp they keep landing into it and dying. After the learn, they avoid Up Smash at all costs knowing there's so much risk challenging it and that Mario has little recovery from using it.
The other thing is, I don't follow Japan's scene much, but I don't think DK or Samus are common characters used in tournaments. That's going to be another edge against both if them. Especially for this MU, the players might be going, "What are we supposed to do and not supposed to do?" Figuring things on the fly isn't easy. Some people even try the same thing despite it failing over and over. In a set with Rice's Falco, he tried over and over to jab mixup 1UP's Luigi and over and over, he ate Nair and Uair which 1UP probably mashed, figured it worked all the time, and tacked on 11% to 12% per 5% Rice tried with Falco's jab. It was really stupid not from a, "Why is this (button-mashing) allowed?", but also a, "Rice, why do you keep doing this hoping it'll change?" It's when you know some details of a character you start to do things to avoid or counter it like people don't know Mario's Up Smash is invincible, sp they keep landing into it and dying. After the learn, they avoid Up Smash at all costs knowing there's so much risk challenging it and that Mario has little recovery from using it.
YoPoYo9100
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 5, 2014
- Messages
- 133
Anybody have any tips on the G&W MU? I have a hard time getting to him if he is spamming neutral B.
Proto_DLN000
Smash Rookie
After forgetting about this and coming back to it, this only works on fast fallers.
While playing the game I somehow accidentally cancelled DK's down b on ground into a foxtrot as soon as his hand hit the floor. It might have something to do with the landing Nair I did from the ledge. I haven't seen anyone do this before and I have it on recording. I don't know how useful this could be but since DK's down b is a very laggy attack opponents might immediately try to punish from the air but will be surprised when you cancel it and possibly throw out a quick Uair for the kill.
I tried recreating this in training mode and got it to work like 3 more times. I think it has something to do with landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyyjKMT39d0&feature=youtu.be
I tried recreating this in training mode and got it to work like 3 more times. I think it has something to do with landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyyjKMT39d0&feature=youtu.be
Welcome to smashboards!
What's happpening here is that when you do an aerial Down B right when you land, it starts the grounded Down B animation, but never starts the slap loop. This only happens when you buffer it after a move that lands right before you can do it. Unfortunately, it isn't competitively useful or practical. I suppose you could try to fake someone out by making them think you are gonna Down B, but he cancels it before anyone can even really react to it.
While you may not have discovered a useful tech, feel free to post more vids in the future or contribute to the DK boards.
DK-RULES
Smash Apprentice
Anyone have solid MU strategies against bayonetta? My goodness, if she gets you in the air it is lights out.
Proto_DLN000
Smash Rookie
I've been toying with DK's grounded Up-B lately, and I've noticed that a decent option for covering landings near the end of the stage is to run under where the opponent is looking to land, then b reversing (wavebouncing?) a grounded up b in the opposite direction. Of course, you need to time your threatenig properly so they have to make a last second adjustment in landing location, making it infintisemally easier to land the grounded up b.
A lot of people, if they think you are giving up center stage to try to cover their landing/feel threatened and want to get away, will drift away from the ledge rather than too it, leaving them open for this. Even if they do go to the ledge, because of your reversed momentum you should have enough time to throw out a retreating bair, or another up b if youre feeling cheeky lmao. The only situation I can really think of that might make it a free punish is if they decide to try to simply land where you were previously threatening (Without an attack only I theorize, thanks to the armor.)
One stipulation is you have to succeed in carrying all of your momentum in the opposite direction. If you screw this up, its a free punish. Furthermore, you have to make sure they burn their second jump somehow, whether its by forcing them to or by their own personal choice, if its there, it'll likely result in them avoiding you.
You can apply this concept if youre attempting a running retreat but want to catch your opponent off guard with an armored, multihit, quick moving attack. I don't reccomend this often though, as they could shield.
A lot of people, if they think you are giving up center stage to try to cover their landing/feel threatened and want to get away, will drift away from the ledge rather than too it, leaving them open for this. Even if they do go to the ledge, because of your reversed momentum you should have enough time to throw out a retreating bair, or another up b if youre feeling cheeky lmao. The only situation I can really think of that might make it a free punish is if they decide to try to simply land where you were previously threatening (Without an attack only I theorize, thanks to the armor.)
One stipulation is you have to succeed in carrying all of your momentum in the opposite direction. If you screw this up, its a free punish. Furthermore, you have to make sure they burn their second jump somehow, whether its by forcing them to or by their own personal choice, if its there, it'll likely result in them avoiding you.
You can apply this concept if youre attempting a running retreat but want to catch your opponent off guard with an armored, multihit, quick moving attack. I don't reccomend this often though, as they could shield.