Meta Donkey Kong Competitive and Metagame Discussion

[DKwill]

Whoah, whoah, whoah, wait a minute now, wouldn't that mean it's impossible to keep an 11 charge on hand since it'll always come out as a 10?

Once you reach 11 charges, you retain the full charge. The act of canceling the charge is what reduces it by -1.

 

[itsaxelol]

Guys, I had a suspicion about DK's Giant Punch charge canceling and I was right.

Every time you charge punch, when you cancel it, it decreases the overall charge by -1 charge.

An easy way to test this is to charge up to 10 swings, cancel, then attempt a full charge from there. It takes 2 charges to reach the max of 11!

What is also interesting to note is that both the 10 charge punch and the 11 charge punch both do 28% damage. The 10 charge one has much more knockback, however.

man ive been wondering about this for a while. i was doubting my ability to count. this is a very good find

it seems 9 wind is still effective and better than 11, anyhow. but there doesnt seem to be a way to store 10. you just need to have an extra swing before you punch

 

[RomanceDawn]

Does anyone have any tips against ROB? The matchup seems impossible with DK right now.

 

[Luigi player]

Wait so you can charge 10 winds and cancel by rolling/shielding/getting hit and then you're fully charged?

Btw, I've found out about some disjointedness in some moves.
This was the first test I had with Bowser:

Bowser was the first one that I tested and found out something very interesting:

Bowser has a lot of disjointed moves. Or should I say "invincible parts of his body" during some moves. You can still hit them, but Bowser won't take damage or knockback.

The most obvious is the fsmash. His legs and feet are invincible. You can destroy bob ombs with it without getting injured. You can even hit through projectiles and some moves that bounce off of something (like Greninja / Link dair) bounce off of it even though Bowser doesn't care at all. Think of it as kinda like Marths sword I guess?

Bowser has this disjointedness on these moves (I could destroy bob ombs with them without getting hit):
- jab
- ftilt
- dtilt
- uptilt (when the bomb comes falling from above)

- upair

- fsmash (legs and feet don't have a hurtbox)
- upsmash (when the bob omb comes from above; as soon as Bowser jumps up (aka you let go of the A button after charging) the bomb gets destroyed and Bowser won't get hit (no matter how late I let go of A!!!))
- dsmash (you have to be pretty close, but not too close to the bomb)

His upsmash was very interesting. It seems like his hurtbox stays on the ground like if he's not jumping - it even seems like it's shrinking a lot (way smaller than Bowser looks). It must be almost impossible to beat Bowsers upsmash from above, or even trade with it.

The only armor he has (that I know of) is the little heavy armor he has all the time, which is mentioned as a "tip" in the game (which only seems to occur when hit by multijabs or Megamans Megabuster melons).
It doesn't seem like Bowser has any other armor, his grounded upB still clashes with moves though.

I then tested DK and found out he has some disjointed moves (I could destroy bob-ombs with them without getting hit):

- ftilt
- dtilt
- uptilt (above/behind him)

- fair (only when the hitbox is right in front of him)
- upair (falling upair)

- dsmash (behind and in front of him)
- upsmash (above him)

I guess this is somewhat of a trade-off for losing some range in his attacks...

 

[RomanceDawn]

Wait so you can charge 10 winds and cancel by rolling/shielding/getting hit and then you're fully charged?

Btw, I've found out about some disjointedness in some moves.
This was the first test I had with Bowser:


I then tested DK and found out he has some disjointed moves (I could destroy bob-ombs with them without getting hit):

- ftilt
- dtilt
- uptilt (above/behind him)

- fair (only when the hitbox is right in front of him)
- upair (falling upair)

- dsmash (behind and in front of him)
- upsmash (above him)

I guess this is somewhat of a trade-off for losing some range in his attacks...

Great info thanks! Now about disjointed hit boxes. Is it basically a part of the attack that doesn't have a hurt box? I never fully understood.

Also not the thread for it but the only move that consistently beats Bowser's Up Smash is Dedede's recovery on the way down.

 

[Luigi player]

Great info thanks! Now about disjointed hit boxes. Is it basically a part of the attack that doesn't have a hurt box? I never fully understood.

Yeah disjointed basically means the hitbox isn't connected to the hurtbox, or if it goes out way beyond from where it overlaps with it. This was/is most obvious on sword moves.

Also not the thread for it but the only move that consistently beats Bowser's Up Smash is Dedede's recovery on the way down.

That is pretty interesting... didn't think anything could beat it.

 

[Brickbox]

Can you guys help me test doing cargo throw at the edge and then letting them break free. I feel like it could be a solid gimmick on certain characters.

If the person jumps the have to time it perfectly so they get the ledge and don't get hit. If they use their up b it still leaves you at an advantage against characters with slow start up recovery moves(like spaces and lucario etc.) If they don't jump into your dtilt you can just punish the up b with stage spike.

This might not make since. I hate posting on mobile.

 

[Big O]

Guys, I had a suspicion about DK's Giant Punch charge canceling and I was right.

Every time you charge punch, when you cancel it, it decreases the overall charge by -1 charge.

An easy way to test this is to charge up to 10 swings, cancel, then attempt a full charge from there. It takes 2 charges to reach the max of 11!

What is also interesting to note is that both the 10 charge punch and the 11 charge punch both do 28% damage. The 10 charge one has much more knockback, however.

I think it works a little differently than your initial hypothesis. From what I can tell, your first wind essentially doesn't count. Whether you cancel the charge via shield, roll, or punching the first wind never adds to the count. You can test this by canceling the punch several times in a row at various points and seeing how long it takes to get full. If you cancel before you hear the second wind, you never gain any charges. Honestly it seems like a glitch or a very obscure nerf. The punch largely remained the same as Brawl's except for the funky charge mechanic and losing the back hit on grounded full charge punch.

Nice to see you still dropping knowledge Will.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

I found that you can cargo them, and as you're walking off the stage, turn around so you're facing the stage, then you can D-throw them and it's similar to his cargo-spike in brawl. Except the timing is incredibly precise and you could die if you don't nail it. It's not a very helpful thing to know how to do, but it's just a little something I found.

 

[1PokeMastr]

So I got 4th/36 going straight Dk at my first 3ds tournament.

Things I noticed, Up B oos is an amazing option it covers anything that hits your shield/ spot dodges and rolls. It even covers nearly all ledge options with the exception of a ledge drop to stall.

If you just run to the ledge and shield for a bit, you're literally covering everything, even a ledge roll because you can b reverse Dk's Up B.

On a side note.. I broke 6 shields today, making my total shield break at 73 all on humans.

 

[itsaxelol]

played my first really good zss. dk gets ***** in that match, especially on FD. its bad. its real bad

 

[1PokeMastr]

I don't think it's that bad, you just can't take an opening aggro stance against her.
It's not as bad as it was in brawl, in smash 4 we can actually do things, and kill her really really early regardless of vectoring.

 

[DKwill]

So I got 4th/36 going straight Dk at my first 3ds tournament.

Things I noticed, Up B oos is an amazing option it covers anything that hits your shield/ spot dodges and rolls. It even covers nearly all ledge options with the exception of a ledge drop to stall.

If you just run to the ledge and shield for a bit, you're literally covering everything, even a ledge roll because you can b reverse Dk's Up B.

On a side note.. I broke 6 shields today, making my total shield break at 73 all on humans.

Yes! I've noticed that b-reversing up-b out of shield is an amazing tool that DK never had before. That, coupled with the fact that the up-b sucks in opponents close to you makes it a definite improvement over the previous iteration of the move.

I do feel that once C-sticks become available (whether on the Wii U version or when the new 3DS comes out), smash DI-ing this may become a factor again. That is if smash DI is still a thing.

In DK dittos, I was able to DI behind the grounded up-b during the middle of it and pop out behind my opponent. So be sure to follow your opponent's DI-- if they are DI-ing behind you? Stay in place, that's your best bet. If they are trying to DI away from you, follow them =)

And omg at your shield break count Poke!!! Haha. And congrats on 4th place =)

 

[False]

Kong Cyclone is the future, gentlemen.

 

[DK-RULES]

Does anyone have good tips against duck hunt? That stupid can is very annoying to get around.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Question, can DK roll cancel grab out of his neutral b?

 

[Alacion]

Hey friends! I just picked up DK and am seconding him (maybe even maining!) I think I've reached a wall against Olimar... any advice on how to deal with him? (and tryhard campers in general )

 

[MysteriousSilver]

What do you guys do with a grab in this game? I've just been going straight to Bthrow most of the time for damage since I can't seem to get any good followups off of Dthrow or Cargo -> Dthrow but it seems braindead and seems like there are some other options I'm not thinking of.

 

[Brickbox]

Up throw and cargo up throw are good at low percents just because you can up air and if they air dodge you are still in a really great position to do damage.

Also D throw into down-b is good if you are at certain percents that force the player to tech.
around 28% for down throw and like 32% for cargo d-throw on average weight characters (the heavier the character the more percent needed.

The only option to escape the down b is to tech roll away. otherwise I am pretty sure the down b will hit everything else.
Its a safe way to sneak in a little damage if the opponent doesn't release they have to tech roll away.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Didn't know that worked, I'll start giving all that a try. Thanks.

Question, can DK roll cancel grab out of his neutral b?

If he can I can't get it to work, even in training mode.

 

[CommanderVimes]

As DKC was the first game I've ever played I have a real attachment to DK. The problem is, outside of when I was younger and just messing around, I have never really gotten a feel for what makes DK DK, and his general strategy. So I have a few basic questions related to his general play/here in Smash 4.

1. Does his game plan revolve around hitting Swing Punch as much as possible? What are some ways to set it up reliably, or is it just an effective punish tool?
2. He has a unique forward throw, but how integral is it to his game?
3. When do you downb? Just seems better to smash in those instances.

I want DK to be a heavy bruiser with higher speed than others of that genre, using above average range to out poke the faster characters. Is that about right or do I need to change tactics/find a character that fits that style better?

 

[itsaxelol]

1. he has no setups. dk doesnt have any real combos in this game, expect utilt stringing a 0-15%. its a punish and read tool
2 its the most useless its ever been. uthrow uair can be avoided by holding up. f/b throws dont lead into anything like pm and have end lag so you cant do anything. dthrow was nerfed from brawl
3 not at all. tech chasing roll spamming and spotdodges get ate by down b

 

[itsaxelol]

I don't think it's that bad, you just can't take an opening aggro stance against her.
It's not as bad as it was in brawl, in smash 4 we can actually do things, and kill her really really early regardless of vectoring.

i think its worse than brawl. zss got many more buffs than we did. her air mobility is insane. you cannot fully read or predict her because a well timed down b will put her out of harms way. she can recover from anywhere with down b > tether/up b. neutral b eats dk. shield or spotdodge or bair gets punished by a buffed tether grab. she has real combos on DK, including kill ones that are easily set up through a grab.. for some reason they thought she needed more and her down b has invincibility frames, making it almost pointless to edgeguard her. things like that i dont understand, especially when you look at the nerfs dk got

zss is easily dks worst match

 

[CommanderVimes]

1. he has no setups. dk doesnt have any real combos in this game, expect utilt stringing a 0-15%. its a punish and read tool
2 its the most useless its ever been. uthrow uair can be avoided by holding up. f/b throws dont lead into anything like pm and have end lag so you cant do anything. dthrow was nerfed from brawl
3 not at all. tech chasing roll spamming and spotdodges get ate by down b

Thanks for the answers. So the advantage of down B is that it has good speed for the range it covers in both directions. More to use just once to predict their tech options than to ever throw out preemptively.

How about his poking in this game? I imagine it is no Marth, but his limbs look long and I hear about disjointed hotboxes which sound like good priority.

 

[1PokeMastr]

i think its worse than brawl. zss got many more buffs than we did. her air mobility is insane. you cannot fully read or predict her because a well timed down b will put her out of harms way. she can recover from anywhere with down b > tether/up b. neutral b eats dk. shield or spotdodge or bair gets punished by a buffed tether grab. she has real combos on DK, including kill ones that are easily set up through a grab.. for some reason they thought she needed more and her down b has invincibility frames, making it almost pointless to edgeguard her. things like that i dont understand, especially when you look at the nerfs dk got

zss is easily dks worst match

You can jab/ f-tilt/ ps the lasers, and at low damages, even if you get hit, depending on how far away you are, she can't get the follow up.

I don't know why you would approach with a bair, especially a landing one, because that's the only real way she can grab it.

Who cares if it's invincible for a brief moment on startup, it was in brawl. Just hit her after the invincibility ends, there's about 10 before her kick comes out, the actual kick, not the auto spike hitbox. Just wait for the down b, run to the side and jump bair, if you're not used to the timing then yeah, you'll take a few hits before you learn it. As well, she only gets one down b in the air, her side b covers almost no vertical and her up b just.. straight up.

My biggest issue with this is.. why are you spotdodging with Dk, he literally has the second worst spotdodge next to Bowser.

As for Zss killing Dk, we can kill her at 80-100 with a Punch/ Fsmash.
And Zss can kill Dk at 150-160 with an Up B or a Uair at maybe 130 if we're really high up already.

 

[LuK2N]

Something me and Will stumbled across last night! Check it out and let's discuss!!!

http://youtu.be/x7s3Deh6UqU

 

[CommanderVimes]

It looks like when Kirby goes into utilt after his dair to combo. Nice.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Sour spot nair into weak hit U-Tilt.
I like it. I really like how it sounds.

 

[Brickbox]

Look really cool, not sure how reliable the sourspot nair is though.
does this only work if you hit someone with the end part of the nair animation?

 

[itsaxelol]

You can jab/ f-tilt/ ps the lasers, and at low damages, even if you get hit, depending on how far away you are, she can't get the follow up.

I don't know why you would approach with a bair, especially a landing one, because that's the only real way she can grab it.

Who cares if it's invincible for a brief moment on startup, it was in brawl. Just hit her after the invincibility ends, there's about 10 before her kick comes out, the actual kick, not the auto spike hitbox. Just wait for the down b, run to the side and jump bair, if you're not used to the timing then yeah, you'll take a few hits before you learn it. As well, she only gets one down b in the air, her side b covers almost no vertical and her up b just.. straight up.

My biggest issue with this is.. why are you spotdodging with Dk, he literally has the second worst spotdodge next to Bowser.

As for Zss killing Dk, we can kill her at 80-100 with a Punch/ Fsmash.
And Zss can kill Dk at 150-160 with an Up B or a Uair at maybe 130 if we're really high up already.

sorry i just dont agree
jabbing and tilting have end lag when they clank and leaves you open
your bair and spotdodge complaints, im just listing all of dks options and saying zss has everything covered
we can kill everyone at 80-100 punch-fsmash, lol, doesn't mean anything

theres just no safe way to approach her and i think in a few months from now, when the first tier list comes around, this will be listed as one of DKs worst matches. shes a fast spammy campy character with a great projectile. its something thats always been one of dks worst matches. im surprised to see will seemingly agree with you

 

[Tujex]

Does anyone have good tips against duck hunt? That stupid can is very annoying to get around.

UpB plows through everything he has, and forces him to shield once you tank through that can, frisbee, and whatever else he has to throw. Never forget, you can also not his can back at him when he's not shooting it, and you can ftilt his frisbee out of the air if you time it. You have to be patient and wait for an opening, and then pound him as much as possible once he slips up. But UpB through his projectiles and then use that shield pressure to force him into position for a KO. Works for me flawlessly, and this is from day to day match experience against someone who mains him.

 

[Illuvial]

Maaaan I just had a session with Palutena and a ROB player and damn those sessions were insane. ROB wasn't as bad as Palutena though, surprisingly enough. However, playing the 50 or so matches today made me notice something inherent about my playstyle with DK, and that's that I'm approaching from the air WAY too often. How does DK approach spamming and zoning characters like Palutena and ROB? If I approach from the air and they manage to block my approach then its free damage on me since they can punish my landing lag with a throw, a jab or just other shenanigans, but approaching on the ground is just insane on flat maps. On MUs like these I'd definitely prefer Battlefield or something just so I have extra platforms to maneuver and go in around.

But my question still is how the hell do I approach on the ground as DK against characters that are so good at keeping me out? Dash Attack only works so many times

 

[DK-RULES]

I have run into the same thing. I saw this on a video, though I have not tried it yet.
If you jump and they shield right away, try to DI back a little bit to land near them instead of on top for an attack. Since they are holding shield, some of the shield will go away. When you land, use down A to swipe under the shield. Of course, if they get hit twice with that, they can simply move forward when you jump. If that happens, jump past them into a B-Air. But you are right, the landing lag is a killer. I'm ok with the lag on F-Air, but for the rest, OUCH.

 

[Brickbox]

To approach on the ground you are most likely going to have to run in and shield until you have a good enough stage position.
If you can avoid flat stages.

As far as approaching from the air empty jump is a decent mix up. If people shield every time you jump in on them start jumping in, landing just out of range of them and do a run up grab or even a run up down-b.

You can also use side -b as a fear tactic, if you can land on them and do a side-b to eat most/all of their shield it should teach them that their shield option isn't free.
Just keep your approaches patient, unpredictable, and for the most part safe.

 

[Blueberry Kong]

only time i got bopped on for glory was vs. a diddy kong - it felt like i was playing the brawl matchup, except his bair strings went on for days and apparently if he down throws me, he gets a free up air which makes DK living to high percents no longer a thing

also, a lot of characters have guarenteed combos at 0% on dk out of a throw

 

[Luigi player]

Today I did do a sliding grounded headbutt. Sadly I couldn't save the replay since I already have 64 replays (which seems to be the max).
I think it was out of shield, and with a jump input, maybe reversed too.
It's a little bit like if you hold right/left and shorthop+sideB. You get that slide too, but you're too high in the air. When I did this I was moving totally on the ground (maybe 1 pixel above, who knows).

I can't seem to replicate it, but I'm not sure if it would even be that useful (if you're a little in the air it would probably be about the same thing, maybe even avoid dtilts; but it could be harder to react to/see it fast enough if you're just suddenly sliding on the ground...).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Maaaan I just had a session with Palutena and a ROB player and damn those sessions were insane. ROB wasn't as bad as Palutena though, surprisingly enough. However, playing the 50 or so matches today made me notice something inherent about my playstyle with DK, and that's that I'm approaching from the air WAY too often. How does DK approach spamming and zoning characters like Palutena and ROB? If I approach from the air and they manage to block my approach then its free damage on me since they can punish my landing lag with a throw, a jab or just other shenanigans, but approaching on the ground is just insane on flat maps. On MUs like these I'd definitely prefer Battlefield or something just so I have extra platforms to maneuver and go in around.

But my question still is how the hell do I approach on the ground as DK against characters that are so good at keeping me out? Dash Attack only works so many times

DK imo should beat ROB on the ground as long as you don't get lasered unnecessarily. ROB's tilt range isn't what it used to be, meaning in midrange he isn't as safe as he used to be. The main new thing you have to be mindful of is his F-smash and U-smash got some range buffs giving him some better grounded KO options. But really, once you're in tilt range, the risk/reward is overall in your favor.

Yeah ROB can still pressure DK in the air well since DK doesn't have great landing options. So in general, I'd say it's important to avoid the laser, which can easily put you in bad positions if you don't respect it.

Palutena on default settings isn't that scary aside from her really good grab reward. Block her neutral B. Don't get too predictable against Counter, and poke her with superior tilts and aerials. Save something like U-tilt oos or B-throw for KOing her. She IS difficult to trap if she uses Teleport intelligently, but in general if you're playing relatively safely against her, she has a hard time getting in a hit.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Maaaan I just had a session with Palutena and a ROB player and damn those sessions were insane. ROB wasn't as bad as Palutena though, surprisingly enough. However, playing the 50 or so matches today made me notice something inherent about my playstyle with DK, and that's that I'm approaching from the air WAY too often. How does DK approach spamming and zoning characters like Palutena and ROB? If I approach from the air and they manage to block my approach then its free damage on me since they can punish my landing lag with a throw, a jab or just other shenanigans, but approaching on the ground is just insane on flat maps. On MUs like these I'd definitely prefer Battlefield or something just so I have extra platforms to maneuver and go in around.

But my question still is how the hell do I approach on the ground as DK against characters that are so good at keeping me out? Dash Attack only works so many times

Run at them and powershield dat ****. Maybe doesn't work so well against Palu because it's three hits, but as a former camping-character main nothing makes me crap my pants like someone running forward and powershielding all my shots. Close the distance to just outside their melee range and then you're effectively at neutral and can start the actual fight. Characters who can force their opposition to approach with projectiles are always going to have the advantage at distance so the best solution is just to run up into their face and stop where it's not safe for them to smash you or something, but close enough that they're afraid to hit that projectile button.

I'm still not really sure what to do with a charged water shuriken or Rosalina in general though.

EDIT: Also scum it up 100% and tap Palutena's portrait if you're having trouble with teleport games. Probably won't be around in the Wii U version but you might as well use it while you have it if you're actually competing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm still not really sure what to do with a charged water shuriken or Rosalina in general though.

Go ham against Rosalina if Luma isn't in a position to punish you. Seriously. Just try attacking her either if:

*Luma is very far away and won't contest you
*Luma is grouped and will be swatted as you attempt to hit Rosalina.

My impression of Rosalina is you generally can't beat her by playing safe in the conventional sense, especially as a large character. This doesn't strictly mean you play stupid. This more means your best bet at winning is banking on maximizing the reward of your risks. If you're approaching Rosalina and SH F-air or F-smash is your easiest option for swiping at Rosalina while hitting Luma at the same time...try it by all means. The worst that could happen is Rosalina F-smashes you, which by itself isn't too terrible.

Don't try too hard to chase Luma over Rosalina, because he respawns in like ~9 seconds. You first and foremost want to land hits on Rosalina, keeping in mind her punish game is much less scary if Luma isn't also able to hit you.

 

[Brickbox]

Today I did do a sliding grounded headbutt. Sadly I couldn't save the replay since I already have 64 replays (which seems to be the max).
I think it was out of shield, and with a jump input, maybe reversed too.
It's a little bit like if you hold right/left and shorthop+sideB. You get that slide too, but you're too high in the air. When I did this I was moving totally on the ground (maybe 1 pixel above, who knows).

I can't seem to replicate it, but I'm not sure if it would even be that useful (if you're a little in the air it would probably be about the same thing, maybe even avoid dtilts; but it could be harder to react to/see it fast enough if you're just suddenly sliding on the ground...).

Very interesting. How far did you slide?