Dolphin Slashing as a Return

[DarkRunner00]

So. I noticed a few things. Say. Ledge drop -> Fair is less used. I tend to see a lot of Ledge -> Nairs.

There've been a few discussions on how to return onto stage.
Also it is known that it is one of Marth's weaknesses.

And we usually say to mix it up with the Nairs, Fairs, Ledge Jumps, walk on, roll on, etc.
Though I do not see a lot of Dolphin Slashing being heard of.

Dolphin Slash is a tricky move because it leaves Marth vulnerable. and even Helpless.
Spacing and timing is key (as is fairing onto the stage and such, since all methods ARE punishable)

but is Dolphin Slashing just as safe as the other methods?

For instance, DS has a killer knockback... so is the weight of knocking your edgeguarder way the **** back worth the Helpless effect and being vulnerable?

....

There are two methods I do this Ledge Jump -> DS and Ledge Drop -DS. There is a difference and its all about spacing. DS is an attack in my current way of play I abuse and so I've noticed it ridiculous reach. And invincibility frames.

It's also a trap in a sense, because character with short reach will try to punish you when you're invinicibility frames wear off.

For cases like this Drop -> DS is the proper return.

Where people who camp and weight till you come up, or have a longer reach abling them to ledge guard from a distance (excluding projectiles) Jump -> DS adds reach.

 

[Steel]

I don't get what you are saying here. First i'm going to say that this is incredibly unsafe.

If you are just doing drop>dolphin slash then where the heck is your opponent standing? If he is standing that close to the ledge then he has no idea how to ledge trap and can easily be taken advantage of.

Again, if this actually hits and is shielded you're screwed.

 

[feardragon64]

First off, if you want to dolphin slash them from the ledge, they have to be standing stupidly close to the edge. Secondly, if they shield you're screwed. It's a 100% free shot at their strongest move basically(hell might even get fsmashed by snake -.-). That alone makes it not worth it. Lastly, knockback doesn't account for not only being dead in the air for god knows how long, but also landing lag assuming you don't return to the ledge(in which case I wouldn't call it a return).

Do not do?

 

[Shaya]

I once in a blue moon will use Dolphin Slash just as I JUMP up from the ledge.

It's semi safe semi not.

Perfect shielded you're ****ed. But yeah after doing it fast fall to regrab the edge. It will stop people trying to grab you or do something 'stupid'. But yeah it's not an especially smart thing to do against SMART edge guarders.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Well, a shielded fair onto the stage is just as punishable..

Locations such Battlefield allow you land earlier (not too beneficial)

Say this is FD or even Battlefield or Smashville (battleifled for location reference)


EDIT: CRAP i can't draw pictures... it right aligns everything...
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Dolphin slash is applicable

Ledge jump gives you immediate inivicibility frames. Dolphin slash will add 4 invinicbility frames and it's reach is far.

If they are closer that beyond the first platform... well dropping -> DS is faster

... i mean yes the move is unsafe. But I'm imagining all other ways of returning and they are just a punishable (especially on shield) but nothing gives as much knock back as DS.

I just want to see, since returning is so difficult, is the knockback worth getting a little more vulnerable?

EDIT:

I'm also not trying to promote this thing as a GO TO MOVE.
I'm promoting the idea to "mix it up"

 

[feardragon64]

ok go promote mix it up. We've all said it aready. It's unsafe and your opponent would have to be stupid to be that close.

Also, if the opponent is unskilled, you shouldn't need help beating them. Always assume your opponent is intelligent or it's not worth theorizing.

P.S. Fair is MUCH safer. It's the state of tumbling and the landing lag that make ds worse than fair

 

[∫unk]

This isn't going to work because as Steel and probably a few others said, shielding is the number one thing people will do when you're playing Marth and you're coming back from the edge.

This is because all of Marth's attacks are single swipes (exception n-air) and his grab is terrible so they know if they shield a poorly spaced aerial (most likely coming from the edge) then they can punish in return.

I'm not saying don't do it at all... but for all the time I've played Marth I can count on one hand the number of times that I've done that and it worked so I'm not sure it bears mentioning.

 

[Pierce7d]

Uh, NEVER DOLPHIN SLASH FROM THE EDGE.

If your opponent is that close, then Uair them after a drop, or even Dolphin Slash ledge recycle, cause that shiz is broken and will still hit for 7 free damage.

 

[alchfilosofer]

This is because all of Marth's attacks are single swipes (exception n-air) and his grab is terrible so they know if they shield a poorly spaced aerial (most likely coming from the edge) then they can punish in return.

Isn't his standing grab the 3rd best one? But yea his trows are terrible...

 

[Pierce7d]

Isn't his standing grab the 3rd best one? But yea his trows are terrible...

He has probably the worst damaging throws in the game, but he does have the third best standing grab range.

 

[IDK]

1st, you stole my idea.
2nd, he means to ledgehop.
3rd, it is good because it has 4 frames of invincibility. kind of like the shield breaker, they basically have to sidestep or RD. attacking doesn't work against dolphin slash, shielding doesn't work against shieldbreaker, and dodging doesnt work against dancing blade. if you mix it up with these three and sometimes a counter off the edge, you should be fine. however most of the time i do a nair. if they figure it out ill start with a dolphin slash. next time they will shield, i'll shieldbreaker. next time they will dodge, i dancing blade. they lose.

 

[∫unk]

If you're grabbing from the ledge it's going to be a dash grab most likely, in which case Marth's is terrible.

 

[TKD]

He has probably the worst damaging throws in the game, but he does have the third best standing grab range.

OK, let me count. Charizard, Dedede, Kirby...hey! Marth is not 3rd best!

 

[deftdefier]

shielding doesn't work against shieldbreaker

Is it commonly thought that SB will beat a shield the majority of the time? I must be using it wrong because last time I checked if you use SB on a shield it will make the opponents shield go down a significant amount, but it wont break it in one shot (with an uncharged SB). And after the opponent shields you still have a considerable amount of lag time to be hit. Kind of off topic but a lot of people seem to think that SB is the end-all solution to shielding.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Kirby's isn't better then Marth's, but I will test it later just to be sure.

And even if it is, it doesn't change the fact that Marth's standing grab range is still good.

 

[bludhoundz]

If you want to return with DS, stall on the edge of Smashville until the platform comes, and jump up onto it.

It can sometimes be used as a GTFO tactic as it can hit a little bit above the stage. But if your opponent is positioned well for your return, then it's pointless.

 

[ZHMT]

Its a very dumb idea imo to dolphin slash as a return from the ledge.

I usually Nair or simply jump and air dodge. Marth's ledge options fail hard <_<

 

[DarkRunner00]

I see, this fails.

Battlefield, Smashville when the platform comes (timed correctly), or even yoshi's story since it has a messy ledge.

BTW

yoshi's story, has it been discussed the edge canceled dolphin slash?

like in Battlefield or even smashville there's the double Dolphin slash glitch which is BAD. but it Yoshi's at some instance's marth doesn't grab the ledge but his DS has canceled and he's not helpless (but he doesn't not have a jump again)

 

[Pierce7d]

I see, this fails.

Battlefield, Smashville when the platform comes (timed correctly), or even yoshi's story since it has a messy ledge.

BTW

yoshi's story, has it been discussed the edge canceled dolphin slash?

like in Battlefield or even smashville there's the double Dolphin slash glitch which is BAD. but it Yoshi's at some instance's marth doesn't grab the ledge but his DS has canceled and he's not helpless (but he doesn't not have a jump again)

You are misinformed. This is the same glitch, that does the same thing on all aforementioned stages. The difference is whether you land on the map, or land just outside of the map. Double Dolphin Slash is input by the user either way.

In short, don't spam UpB when trying to recover.

 

[feardragon64]

Is it commonly thought that SB will beat a shield the majority of the time? I must be using it wrong because last time I checked if you use SB on a shield it will make the opponents shield go down a significant amount, but it wont break it in one shot (with an uncharged SB). And after the opponent shields you still have a considerable amount of lag time to be hit. Kind of off topic but a lot of people seem to think that SB is the end-all solution to shielding.

Get like one tipped fair on it before you shieldbreaker and it'll break.
Or you could get almost two of any tipped attacks to wear it down a bit and even if they drop shield, as long as you get em in the next short period of time you're good.
But shieldbreaker is for shield spammers, not for general use...

 

[Pierce7d]

Get like one tipped fair on it before you shieldbreaker and it'll break.
Or you could get almost two of any tipped attacks to wear it down a bit and even if they drop shield, as long as you get em in the next short period of time you're good.
But shieldbreaker is for shield spammers, not for general use...

I use shieldbreaker generally all the time. Shield breaker is for ground zoning, but that's highly advanced, and I'll make a thread on that in the future.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I love SB. I try not to spam it (I've played you Pierce, you know how I use it), and lots of the time I can either break a shield or wear it down to the point where the opponent will have to choose between attempting to shield a DB that I'll throw normally and having their shield break, or taking the DB, either way they take damage. SB is advanced, and I'm not too advanced as a Marth user, so I try not to use it a whole lot.