Does rolling kill the fun?

[Road Death Wheel]

Yeah, you haven't fought a good little mac player at all have you? Again your only problems seem like you'd rather people adapt to your play style rather than adapting to theirs, take mario vs fox as an example, fox's odds of beating mario are high given his speed, strength and recovery, on FD mario can barely do anything against him, now take it to BF the odds are still in fox's favor but mario has a better chance because he can't be pressured as much and since you have to think vertically as well both players have different options.

Even if FD was the most balanced stage (which if definitely isn't) it's still too boring to play on, FD is a very linear stage. Me and my friends play on: dream land, fountain of dreams, BF, metal cavern, smashville, and FD all if those stages offer a different element that forces the player to adapt to it

lol mario is not at a disavantage against fox quite the opposite really considering mario can cape both recovery options rather easily.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

lol mario is not at a disavantage against fox quite the opposite really considering mario can cape both recovery options rather easily.

Are you aware of how hard it is to cape fox's recovery? It's way harder than gimping Mario's recovery that's for sure, also how is he not at a disadvantage against fox? He has an answer for every move Mario has.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Do you see the problem then? Roll spamming is way too powerful.



No, it just means you're using the game's mechanics to your advantage. Those kinds of cancels aren't any different from wavedashing.

Difference between Airdodge canceling BS and wavedashing is.

A. It creates interesting ground oriented situations and combat

B. Can promote offensive and defensive play, where aid offs canceling just promotes defense.

C. Allows all characters to maneuver around the stage and platforms very well.

D. Everyone can effectively utilize it, where air dodge canceling can only be utilized by a select few.

E. Doesn't reward you with an attack in addition to invincibility frames.

I can recall when people pondered if the roll would be the new wavedash. Well, it is, and it's as bad as everyone thought it would be. Atleast you can punish a bad wavedash. Characters like Rosalina can Roll without being punished. The other day I literally spent 5 minutes with Sheik trying to take away a Pac-Mans stock because he could just run away all day and unless I get a hard read there is nothing I can do about it, and before you try and blame lag, this was a local game between 2 people.

Sakurai needs to fix this invincibility bull**** with rolling and Airdodge spamming, as it makes no sense to deliberately hinder two mechanics (edge grabbing and re grabbing) without seeing the potential flaws in allowing characters to have a massive amount of repeated invincibility frames. It's a huge design over site, either that or a deliberate one.

Changes to this game need to be made if it doesn't want to end up being the flavor of the month.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Lolno, I'm using your own, flawed, logic to solve a problem that only exists in your head. If your logic was true, the game would revolve around roll spam in tournaments. Show me that's how people win tournaments. If it's not, it's an incredibly stupid tactic that only noobs will use.



Adding in a random Battlefield to FD would cause more problems then solutions.

How would it NOT help? It's structurally smaller on the base platform so the player rolling the most surrenders more stage control, and if a player his a platform he has a finite amount of room to roll or tech for that matter, allowing players to punish better.

If anything, battlefield is exactly what we need.

 

[Lime Cultivist]

I hate rolling so much in this game. Even if it's predictable, the opponent can still somehow manage to keep rolling out punishes so many times. Really, you can throw out a multi-hit move right where the opponent rolls away and the they'll somehow still roll through it. It's never been this bad in any other smash game, although I think the controls may have something to do about it. I won't complain that they're bad, as it is a handheld system, but it's harder to do anything than it is with a gamecube controller.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

My problem with the air dodging is sakurai didn't really fix the issue it had it brawl all he did was add landing lag to it which doesn't make sense because I would most likely use it when someone's waiting to hit me there's no reason for me to get punished otherwise

 

[Quillion]

My problem with the air dodging is sakurai didn't really fix the issue it had it brawl all he did was add landing lag to it which doesn't make sense because I would most likely use it when someone's waiting to hit me there's no reason for me to get punished otherwise

I thought the issue was that there's a fixed amount of time after being hit that you can air dodge regardless of hitstun. That problem was removed entirely.

Or do you just hate the conserving air dodge?

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I thought the issue was that there's a fixed amount of time after being hit that you can air dodge regardless of hitstun. That problem was removed entirely.

Or do you just hate the conserving air dodge?

I conserve it until I'm about to hit the ground, and that's usually because someone's waiting to hit me back in the air but I get hit back up anyway because of the landing lag

 

[Quillion]

I conserve it until I'm about to hit the ground, and that's usually because someone's waiting to hit me back in the air but I get hit back up anyway because of the landing lag

Sorry, I should have said momentum-conserving air dodge.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I thought the issue was that there's a fixed amount of time after being hit that you can air dodge regardless of hitstun. That problem was removed entirely.

Or do you just hate the conserving air dodge?

I think the issue is that while he fixed hitstun canceling and added landing lag to air dodges, this game still allows you to preemptively cancel your Airdodge before the animation ends, so you can repeatedly Airdodge spam like spot dodging in Brawl, and some characters with Lagless aerials can do an attack before they hit the ground, so the player chasing the player mid air can get punished assuming he dodges the attack. I can easily see Sheik players abusing this. Atleast in Brawl you can punish an Airdodge in mid air . In this game you can't.

With all of the issues in the game thus far, I don't think having slightly more hitstun will suffice for the enhanced defensive mechanics.

 

[Quillion]

I think the issue is that while he fixed hitstun canceling and added landing lag to air dodges, this game still allows you to preemptively cancel your Airdodge before the animation ends, so you can repeatedly Airdodge spam like spot dodging in Brawl, and some characters with Lagless aerials can do an attack before they hit the ground, so the player chasing the player mid air can get punished assuming he dodges the attack. I can easily see Sheik players abusing this. Atleast in Brawl you can punish an Airdodge in mid air . In this game you can't.

With all of the issues in the game thus far, I don't think having slightly more hitstun will suffice for the enhanced defensive mechanics.

In my opinion, that's more of a counter-attack mechanic than it is a pure defensive mechanic. It gives a bit more of an agro option than in Brawl.

 

[Quillion]

You know what let's have enough of this. ENOUGH OF THIS ARGUING.

Someone is going to have to provide video proof that rolling is OP otherwise we'll never agree on whether rolling is busted or just glitched due to online.

SOMEONE PROVIDE VIDEO PROOF. NOW.

 

[AerialNinja]

Rolling is a bit easier to deal with offline, FG rolling with delay is pretty hard to punish

 

[LancerStaff]

Punishing rolling isn't easy for everyone. Just because you find it sooo easy doesn't mean everyone does.
No, I'm not overblowing the rolls. They are too good.
And have you forgotten that this thread is all about discussing that the roll ruins the fun? Nah, I guess you're too high up on your high horse to care, and instead just preferring to strike down anyone who actually has a different opinion/playstyle to yours.

I could understand if this thread was just a general thread about rolls, but the title specifically says "Does rolling kill the fun" and not "Discuss rolls and be superior over anyone who thinks they're too overpowered."

Every multiplayer game is broken at lower levels, plain and simple. Refusal to learn means the game will continue to be broken for you. Fixing this will just result in you coming to another stumbling block and complaining once more. I don't see how this is any different from when noobs would complain about Ike in Brawl.

How would it NOT help? It's structurally smaller on the base platform so the player rolling the most surrenders more stage control, and if a player his a platform he has a finite amount of room to roll or tech for that matter, allowing players to punish better.

If anything, battlefield is exactly what we need.

It outright destroys many characters. Balancing around BF and making FG BF only would just result in people complaining about characters who love small spaces like Marth, and projectiles as a whole would have to be stronger, dehinging FD even further. BF having slightly less space to roll around doesn't make any real difference in the rolling "problem."

I hate rolling so much in this game. Even if it's predictable, the opponent can still somehow manage to keep rolling out punishes so many times. Really, you can throw out a multi-hit move right where the opponent rolls away and the they'll somehow still roll through it. It's never been this bad in any other smash game, although I think the controls may have something to do about it. I won't complain that they're bad, as it is a handheld system, but it's harder to do anything than it is with a gamecube controller.

There's not enough time for that. That's just an exaggeration.

I think the issue is that while he fixed hitstun canceling and added landing lag to air dodges, this game still allows you to preemptively cancel your Airdodge before the animation ends, so you can repeatedly Airdodge spam like spot dodging in Brawl, and some characters with Lagless aerials can do an attack before they hit the ground, so the player chasing the player mid air can get punished assuming he dodges the attack. I can easily see Sheik players abusing this. Atleast in Brawl you can punish an Airdodge in mid air . In this game you can't.

With all of the issues in the game thus far, I don't think having slightly more hitstun will suffice for the enhanced defensive mechanics.

Yeah, no. We'd be seeing this already if it were this powerful, outside of noob breeding grounds like FG. We don't see roll spam, and we don't see "invincible" airdodges in tournaments. Come back when we do.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Every multiplayer game is broken at lower levels, plain and simple. Refusal to learn means the game will continue to be broken for you. Fixing this will just result in you coming to another stumbling block and complaining once more. I don't see how this is any different from when noobs would complain about Ike in Brawl.



It outright destroys many characters. Balancing around BF and making FG BF only would just result in people complaining about characters who love small spaces like Marth, and projectiles as a whole would have to be stronger, dehinging FD even further. BF having slightly less space to roll around doesn't make any real difference in the rolling "problem."



There's not enough time for that. That's just an exaggeration.



Yeah, no. We'd be seeing this already if it were this powerful, outside of noob breeding grounds like FG. We don't see roll spam, and we don't see "invincible" airdodges in tournaments. Come back when we do.

The point wasn't to make it only BF, the point was to alternate between the two, not having this makes for glory boring and repetitive and limits the amount of strats that can be used

 

[Kurttronic]

Shoulda rolled.

 

[LancerStaff]

The point wasn't to make it only BF, the point was to alternate between the two, not having this makes for glory boring and repetitive and limits the amount of strats that can be used

Congratulations, now people just alternate between two characters and/or quit whenever their bad stage shows up. One stage still works better.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Congratulations, now people just alternate between two characters and/or quit whenever their bad stage shows up. One stage still works better.

Is that what you would do? I don't really see that happening at all, why do you think so? Even when playing against people here in the friend code thread I don't quit the match because a stage I don't like is picked nor do we only play on final destination.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Every multiplayer game is broken at lower levels, plain and simple. Refusal to learn means the game will continue to be broken for you. Fixing this will just result in you coming to another stumbling block and complaining once more. I don't see how this is any different from when noobs would complain about Ike in Brawl.

The main difference is that even though people did complain about Ike in Brawl, that's one character. Rolling encompasses every character and affects the gameplay in general.

Also I really hope that you don't have the mindset that we actually think we can change anything by posting here about our thoughts on rolls. This is a discussion. People have the right to discuss/complain about things they dislike in a game.

 

[LancerStaff]

The main difference is that even though people did complain about Ike in Brawl, that's one character. Rolling encompasses every character and affects the gameplay in general.

Also I really hope that you don't have the mindset that we actually think we can change anything by posting here about our thoughts on rolls. This is a discussion. People have the right to discuss/complain about things they dislike in a game.

One character that was easily one of the most used.

Voicing your opinion does... What, exactly? I already know you'll just retort "what does YOURS do?" It's not an opinion that rolling can be easily handled. You need to practice, and by chosing to not practice, you choose to lose. You have no right to complain if you didn't put the effort in, and you'd be complaining about something else if rolls were out of the way.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

One character that was easily one of the most used.

Voicing your opinion does... What, exactly? I already know you'll just retort "what does YOURS do?" It's not an opinion that rolling can be easily handled. You need to practice, and by chosing to not practice, you choose to lose. You have no right to complain if you didn't put the effort in, and you'd be complaining about something else if rolls were out of the way.

How is that not an opinion? The only reason you would say it was easy is due to your own experiences. This isn't like people are saying 2+2=5, this is due their experiences with it, who are you to tell them they're? This could all change when the wii u version is out and people have better controls to help with precise reads.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

One character that was easily one of the most used.

Voicing your opinion does... What, exactly? I already know you'll just retort "what does YOURS do?" It's not an opinion that rolling can be easily handled. You need to practice, and by chosing to not practice, you choose to lose. You have no right to complain if you didn't put the effort in, and you'd be complaining about something else if rolls were out of the way.

I have not once said that I lose to roll spammers all the time. Have you forgotten that the #1 complaint in this thread is that it's """"""""""not fun"""""""""" to fight against roll spammers? If you feel like taking the high road, at least know what's going on first.

 

[LancerStaff]

How is that not an opinion? The only reason you would say it was easy is due to your own experiences. This isn't like people are saying 2+2=5, this is due their experiences with it, who are you to tell them they're? This could all change when the wii u version is out and people have better controls to help with precise reads.

The experienced players aren't complaining. It's not a problem if there's an actual way around it. And this is a fighting game, you're expected to either learn to play or be left in the dust.

I have not once said that I lose to roll spammers all the time. Have you forgotten that the #1 complaint in this thread is that it's """"""""""not fun"""""""""" to fight against roll spammers. If you feel like taking the high road, at least know what's going on first.

Stomping roll spammers won't be any more fun in any other smash game. And people have been complaining about roll spammers from the beginning.

 

[chipndip]

That's what made them GOOD. Melee's defensive options were "noob options"; they were useful at low-level play, but at high level play they're fun to punish and force you to have more creativity with your approaches and hit-and-runs.

That's what made them USELESS. Good defensive options are balanced ones. What's the point of giving me the ability to block if it sucks at higher level play?

That is one of the reasons Melee got to be so fast, is because defense is non existent, you're forced to be offensive. Makes it more fun all around. Lame options still exist, however, so it doesn't run into Third Strikes problem of "I can't play defensively" (disclaimer, Third Strike is my favorite video game, but I know its flaws), forcing you to constantly be offensively. Melee and Third Strike have the same speed factors like that, but a defensive is possible in Melee. It just isn't strong.

One problem I have with 4 is that defense gets rewarded too much. It doesn't have the offensive/defensive balance of something like Ultra Street Fighter 4. Melee leaned towards offense, 4 and Brawl are leaning a bit too far into defense for my liking.

3rd Strike had DEFENSE problems? Are we on something? 3rd Strike had some of the campiest play I've seen in my life before SF X TKN, and we do realize that parries are a defensive mechanic, right?

Brawl was obviously too campy, but you can do well holding up a solid offense in this game, unlike Brawl. You really can't just roll spam to win, but some people like to over-react and say they can, which is stupid. Yes, Lil Mac has a great roll, but he's absolute trash in the air to the point where making him any worse on the ground would make him entirely undesirable as a character (I definitely don't see him in FG as much anymore, and I've been not seeing much Greninja either). Maybe a few char specific roll nerfs could possibly be justified, but there's not much wrong with how it is now if you're used to the game's ebb n' flow.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

The experienced players aren't complaining. It's not a problem if there's an actual way around it. And this is a fighting game, you're expected to either learn to play or be left in the dust.



Stomping roll spammers won't be any more fun in any other smash game. And people have been complaining about roll spammers from the beginning.

Who are all of these experienced players you speak of? Pro level? If so I guess if mew2king said rolling was op you'd agree? Whatever I'm done talking to you

 

[Road Death Wheel]

till i get a video of high level play where rolling teared down all offensive options witch i dose not than im obligated to believe that rolling is not op.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

till i get a video of high level play where rolling teared down all offensive options witch i dose not than im obligated to believe that rolling is not op.

Dude the wii u has spell check use it

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

One character that was easily one of the most used.

Voicing your opinion does... What, exactly? I already know you'll just retort "what does YOURS do?" It's not an opinion that rolling can be easily handled. You need to practice, and by chosing to not practice, you choose to lose. You have no right to complain if you didn't put the effort in, and you'd be complaining about something else if rolls were out of the way.

Your whole post is literally an assumption, and not only that, has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I can punish rolls, it's possible. But it's not fun--at all, to spend the whole match trying to do so. That's the whole point. If I wanted to play a heavily defensive oriented game I would have kept playing Brawl.

Since you're so good at doing this due to your practice, why don't you make some videos of your ability to punish so well? Better yet, why don't you play me right now and show me how good you are?

 

[Darkzephr]

I'm really not super experienced, but I find that it's not too hard to punish opponents who over roll. I know that for Sheik, my excessive rolling has been one of my biggest weaknesses. I don't know if it will become an issue at high level play, because to my knowledge rolling offers no offensive options. Again, I'm really only speaking as a Sheik player here, but my short hop into a Nair will dodge very effectively, and allow me to apply pressure.

Also, baiting out rolls is very satisfying. Gotta use those mind games.

EDIT: Missed the last page of this thread before replying by accident. It was super frustrating when I was starting out having a 5 minute roll fest into sudden death. It doesn't happen anymore now, but I could definitely see it alienating new players, and I would totally agree that's an issue.

something to consider though, what do you guys feel is worse for new players:
Being frustrated that they cant hit their opponent frequently from excessive rolling, or being combo locked and feeling completely helpless due to lack of beginner friendly defensive options?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Dude the wii u has spell check use it

relly? ima not now but i tu lasy.
im actually just trolling i must make a habit of spell checking.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

relly? ima not now but i tu lasy.
im actually just trolling i must make a habit of spell checking.

...yeah, you do that

 

[chipndip]

I'm really not super experienced, but I find that it's not too hard to punish opponents who over roll. I know that for Sheik, my excessive rolling has been one of my biggest weaknesses. I don't know if it will become an issue at high level play, because to my knowledge rolling offers no offensive options. Again, I'm really only speaking as a Sheik player here, but my short hop into a Nair will dodge very effectively, and allow me to apply pressure.

Also, baiting out rolls is very satisfying. Gotta use those mind games.

EDIT: Missed the last page of this thread before replying by accident. It was super frustrating when I was starting out having a 5 minute roll fest into sudden death. It doesn't happen anymore now, but I could definitely see it alienating new players, and I would totally agree that's an issue.

something to consider though, what do you guys feel is worse for new players:
Being frustrated that they cant hit their opponent frequently from excessive rolling, or being combo locked and feeling completely helpless due to lack of beginner friendly defensive options?

That's something intermediate players and wanna-be pros don't realize: It's not fun when offensive options are too strong either. I pride myself in being able to out-do my friends by playing smart. Since I'm never gonna be as dexterous as them with my fingers, I make up for it by playing in ways they can't just lock down by mashing out attack options all over my face. It's like there's no credit given for the guy that knows his windows of opportunity in this thread.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

That's something intermediate players and wanna-be pros don't realize: It's not fun when offensive options are too strong either. I pride myself in being able to out-do my friends by playing smart. Since I'm never gonna be as dexterous as them with my fingers, I make up for it by playing in ways they can't just lock down by mashing out attack options all over my face. It's like there's no credit given for the guy that knows his windows of opportunity in this thread.

The thing about that is most of the players who abuse the rolls aren't the smart ones, they most certainly get dealt with, the problem is it wastes time, it slows the pace of the fight down because you have to be so precise to hit them at times. It's just annoying that's all

 

[LancerStaff]

Who are all of these experienced players you speak of? Pro level? If so I guess if mew2king said rolling was op you'd agree? Whatever I'm done talking to you

Lolno. M2K said Pit's arrows and Zelda's Din's Fire were OP in Brawl.

Anyway, you don't hear tournament level players complaining about rolls. It simply isn't a problem.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

Lolno. M2K said Pit's arrows and Zelda's Din's Fire were OP in Brawl.

Anyway, you don't hear tournament level players complaining about rolls. It simply isn't a problem.

Just because some people don't consider rolling a problem, doesn't mean that everyone should think it's not a problem, and "everyone who thinks that there's a problem is wrong."
That's where you're flawed in your posts. You're acting like that one opinion is law and we're not allowed to think that rolling is too good.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just because some people don't consider rolling a problem, doesn't mean that everyone should think it's not a problem, and "everyone who thinks that there's a problem is wrong."
That's where your flawed in your posts. You're acting like that one opinion is law and we're not allowed to think that rolling is too good.

The problem being that people are fully capable of learning how to deal with it properly. Nearly every single aspect of the game is a giant problem to somebody, somewhere. This "problem" isn't any more important then another "problem," and it's physically impossible for a game to not have noob bridges like this. People just have to learn to cross them.

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

The problem being that people are fully capable of learning how to deal with it properly. Nearly every single aspect of the game is a giant problem to somebody, somewhere. This "problem" isn't any more important then another "problem," and it's physically impossible for a game to not have noob bridges like this. People just have to learn to cross them.

I don't know why you constantly refer to them as "noob bridges" and whatnot.

That makes you come off as degrading and it's quite off-putting. Obviously in this thread, that there is more than just "somebody" who thinks that rolling is too good.
Anything can be "dealt with" but I have no idea why you continue to ignore the fact that this thread is centered around the fact that rolling is very annoying and ruins fun.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't know why you constantly refer to them as "noob bridges" and whatnot.

That makes you come off as degrading and it's quite off-putting. Obviously in this thread, that there is more than just "somebody" who thinks that rolling is too good.
Anything can be "dealt with" but I have no idea why you continue to ignore the fact that this thread is centered around the fact that rolling is very annoying and ruins fun.

There are people who think Ike is still extremely overpowered. Why should Nintendo listen to you and not them? Isn't a single reason. There's absolutely no reason Nintendo should go out of their way to make changes at a minority's request.

I've gotten past this, what's stopping you?

 

[Abyssal Lagiacrus]

There are people who think Ike is still extremely overpowered. Why should Nintendo listen to you and not them? Isn't a single reason. There's absolutely no reason Nintendo should go out of their way to make changes at a minority's request.

I've gotten past this, what's stopping you?

Aaaaaaaaaand we're still allowed to have our opinions, that's the bottom line here sir.

I don't see how you coming here just to degrade us for having an opinion is relevant at all to anything, much less respectful. You're just like everyone else who goes to those threads about people discussing how this game is campy too and going "lol git gud," but in a more wordy way.

Also you seem to be under the impression that we're all here with our pitchforks and torches, rioting at Nintendo to fix rolling. No. We're just discussing it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Aaaaaaaaaand we're still allowed to have our opinions, that's the bottom line here sir.

I don't see how you coming here just to degrade us for having an opinion is relevant at all to anything, much less respectful. You're just like everyone else who goes to those threads about people discussing how this game is campy too and going "lol git gud," but in a more wordy way.

Also you seem to be under the impression that we're all here with our pitchforks and torches, rioting at Nintendo to fix rolling. No. We're just discussing it.

Is it an opinion that we see light? No, that's a fact. It doesn't matter if some random people think so, it simply isn't true. Same here.

Whataya want me to say? That this is a legitimate problem when it isn't? The people who think Ike is OP are just as wrong as you. How aren't they?

Discussing this does nothing when you don't listen to the ways around it. What's the point in continuing to be blind to the truth? There's no reason for this to exist, especially when there are indeed people readying the pitchforks.