Does rolling kill the fun?

[Liam_Butler]

As a Melee player, I picked up Smash 4 in hopes of possibly returning to Melee like gameplay. But, playing online, I notice that rolling is a huge problem. It seems too good, to me at least. It is such a good tool for escaping, which is fine in all, but since there is no reliable approach method (I.E. Wavedashing), you have to roll to catch up with the person rolling. Which isn't fun. Jumping at them doesn't work, because they can roll and not get punished. You can't dash at them because you'll get rolled. You can't approach because rolls. So you have to approach with rolls. And then it is just two people rolling and rolling, until someone throws at a move, and gets punished. Repeat. Am I the only one who notices this? Does someone know a reliable counter to rolling, outside a hard read? Am I stupid, and I don't understand Smash?

 

[TheDMonroeShow]

Don't worry you're not stupid or anything its far from just you experiencing it.

Rolls are just far to safe in this game, I believe its possible to DACUS with the n3ds so that will help with approaches in the future but for now its really just a kill joy as you said.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

lol you gotta predict where they are going to roll. being agro in this game requires perception and the abillity to read.

 

[KenMeister]

As one who constantly grabs people out of rolls/downsmashes, I can definitely admit it doesn't work with everyone. I can't seem to punish Mac for doing it everytime it spams it (due to its high speed), it's so freaking annoying.

 

[Toon612Link]

I feel like characters with spin attacks can take out rollers easy, Like bowser or link.

 

[SevenYearItch]

Nah, its annoying but not a game breaker imo. I actually have to get out of that habit because I still roll once I get into the zone instead of processing and blocking.

 

[Jerodak]

Rolls are punishable but you just need to read them, most characters have at least one or two normals that punish rolling, some have specials that are good for it. Like Road Death Wheel said, you need to also know the spacing, but keep in mind that not all rolls are the same either, Samus, for instance has a pretty slow roll but it goes pretty far and has a lot of invincible frames on it, so you won't punish it the same way as you'd punish most rolls.

Being aware of the situation that you and the opponent are in help also, for instance, players cornered at the edge of the stage, if you know they like to roll forward to get behind you and escape then you just need to be ahead of the game, stop either just outside where the roll will put them and rapid jab or you can start charging a smash if you're feeling confident. You can also run past where the roll will put them and do a pivot grab, the same way that you'd punish a spot dodge. If you have an attack with a good hitbox that covers you then you can also stop inside of where the roll will put them and use that. In my case I like to use Dsmash in this scenario because that's a good roll punisher as Bowser. Those are just a few examples of how you can deal with that particular situation.

For people rolling away, most character's dash attacks, if times correctly will meaty them out of the end of the roll. You can also use a projectile or space a far reaching move. Knowing the opponent's habits is important here, also it's important not to panic or get frustrated, if you missed the opportunity to punish the roll then it's fine, you can punish the next one. If you're missing quite a few, that's fine too; you'll get better at it eventually.

 

[Sleek Media]

Try using timing. Helps if you know how to read, too.

 

[Lichi]

Instead of catching up with roll-trolls I found that walking (not dashing!) works wonders. While they are busy evading your attacks you do not throw at them, you maintain the ability to use any attack at any time should they get in reach some day. If not, let them roll, they won't roll me off stage.

 

[Mr.Deoxys]

Predicting rolls are fairly easy if the opponent abuses it too much.
So rolling doesn't kill the fun for me.

 

[mangamusicfan]

Nope for me it doesn't.
you can learn a lot how to face tose kind of players.
only good for your playstile how to get better.

 

[TurnUp]

A little, but you gotta know how to deal with it is all, like most people already said it's about reading the rolls and punishing it.

The multiple air dodge are horrible in my opinion though. They need more delay in the air.

 

[KenMeister]

A little, but you gotta know how to deal with it is all, like most people already said it's about reading the rolls and punishing it.

The multiple air dodge are horrible in my opinion though. They need more delay in the air.

Yeah, if anything that in itself annoys me Waaaaay more than the rolls (punishment depends on speed of roll), I've missed several edgeguards because of it.

 

[TurnUp]

Yeah, if anything that in itself annoys me Waaaaay more than the rolls (punishment depends on speed of roll), I've missed several edgeguards because of it.

CPUs are especially guilty of abusing it, but yeah air dodges having 22 frames of landing lag is good, but air dodges seem to end before hitting the ground anyway so you can't really punish it that well. Rolling is a non issue, even Sheiks short hops is better than rolling, infinite air dodges are way too safe sometimes.

 

[Liam_Butler]

CPUs are especially guilty of abusing it, but yeah air dodges having 22 frames of landing lag is good, but air dodges seem to end before hitting the ground anyway so you can't really punish it that well. Rolling is a non issue, even Sheiks short hops is better than rolling, infinite air dodges are way too safe sometimes.

Infinite Air Dodges are horrible, it makes edge guarding practically useless, and some combo set-ups not work, cause they air dodge, but unless they hit the ground and lag, you just miss an attack and can do nothing about it.

Instead of catching up with roll-trolls I found that walking (not dashing!) works wonders. While they are busy evading your attacks you do not throw at them, you maintain the ability to use any attack at any time should they get in reach some day. If not, let them roll, they won't roll me off stage.

Thanks for the tip. Seems I just need to get better at reads. :/

 

[Raithen]

Ways I beat it:
-Spam your A combo. They get sucked into it when they finish the roll.
-Use a projectile to knock them out.
-Dash attack the way they are rolling and your dash slide will hit them.
-Grab them.
-Down Smash

That's a lot of ways to beat it.

 

[Dr. Krumm]

Rolling is indeed stronger this time around, however rolling in its very nature is predictable. The opponent can only go ways, which makes it easy to read after a couple of rolls. You analyze the situation, if they roll as soon as you approach, then don't throw out moves, just read the roll and punish and even if you guess you still has a 50% chance of guessing right.

It's all about learning how to counter, although it's a little bit harder now since rolls have better frame data.

 

[Liam_Butler]

Ways I beat it:
-Spam your A combo. They get sucked into it when they finish the roll.
-Use a projectile to knock them out.
-Dash attack the way they are rolling and your dash slide will hit them.
-Grab them.
-Down Smash

That's a lot of ways to beat it.

Those will beat it, but some of those you need a good read to hit. At this point, I'm more concerned with possible approach options, as I now know that the way to beat rolling is a good read. I appreciate it, nonetheless.

 

[Dagon97]

If somebody is spamming rolls note:
Every multihit DA punishes every Roll, spotdodge, and air dodge in the entire game.
Also note if they are rolling out of shield or not you can get some reads off of that.
Ex: If you are Sheik ftilt the direction your opponent is rolling if they are rolling in front or behind you then start a ridiculous combo and take their stock.
There are certain moves made to punish rolls (Falcon's Dsmash).

 

[Terotrous]

I think some people are just a little too used to Melee with its "don't roll" mentality. There are good and bad times to roll in this game, and choosing a bad one usually gets you killed. This is important for some characters, as pressuring the opponent into a bad roll is one of their most reliable ways to get kills.

In general, there aren't really braindead approach options in this game that get you strong pressure for free. You have to think of this as kind of like third strike, where your opponent can theoretically parry and punish almost anything you do, so you have to vary your offense to throw off their timing. At least in this game, attempting a "parry" is punishable if you guess wrong.

 

[Liam_Butler]

I think some people are just a little too used to Melee with its "don't roll" mentality. There are good and bad times to roll in this game, and choosing a bad one usually gets you killed. This is important for some characters, as pressuring the opponent into a bad roll is one of their most reliable ways to get kills.

In general, there aren't really braindead approach options in this game that get you strong pressure for free. You have to think of this as kind of like third strike, where your opponent can theoretically parry and punish almost anything you do, so you have to vary your offense to throw off their timing. At least in this game, attempting a "parry" is punishable if you guess wrong.

I am too used to Melee, that's probably true. And, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, I don't think I would liken Parrying to Rolling, but I know what you mean. I've played tons of Third Strike, so I understand what you mean, being too predictable means you will eat a combo, so you got to mix it up. Mixing up approaches as some characters is hard, which is why (here's my melee purist side), I wish there was something similar to wavedashing that all characters have and use to approach. (Obviously some characters benefit more from Wavedashing than others, but the general idea of a solid approach for each character is what I want, besides what is standard) It may be discovered eventually, it may not. Maybe I'm stuck in the past on that topic though.

 

[Terotrous]

I am too used to Melee, that's probably true. And, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, I don't think I would liken Parrying to Rolling, but I know what you mean. I've played tons of Third Strike, so I understand what you mean, being too predictable means you will eat a combo, so you got to mix it up. Mixing up approaches as some characters is hard, which is why (here's my melee purist side), I wish there was something similar to wavedashing that all characters have and use to approach. (Obviously some characters benefit more from Wavedashing than others, but the general idea of a solid approach for each character is what I want, besides what is standard) It may be discovered eventually, it may not. Maybe I'm stuck in the past on that topic though.

I was actually thinking of Spot Dodge is the parry mechanic, but they're all kind of related.

And yeah, there do seem to be some characters who struggle at approaching and also lack any obvious means to force the opponent to come to them, but every game is going to have a few characters who are poorly designed.

 

[KenMeister]

I am too used to Melee, that's probably true. And, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, I don't think I would liken Parrying to Rolling, but I know what you mean. I've played tons of Third Strike, so I understand what you mean, being too predictable means you will eat a combo, so you got to mix it up. Mixing up approaches as some characters is hard, which is why (here's my melee purist side), I wish there was something similar to wavedashing that all characters have and use to approach. (Obviously some characters benefit more from Wavedashing than others, but the general idea of a solid approach for each character is what I want, besides what is standard) It may be discovered eventually, it may not. Maybe I'm stuck in the past on that topic though.

I'm surprised no body has mentioned this, but pros discovered when shielding during mid-dash, it halts all movement (meaning you don't slide like in other games), so I see potential in it making fake-outs or baiting whiffs.

 

[KenMeister]

I was actually thinking of Spot Dodge is the parry mechanic, but they're all kind of related.

And yeah, there do seem to be some characters who struggle at approaching and also lack any obvious means to force the opponent to come to them, but every game is going to have a few characters who are poorly designed.

Samus in a Luigi in a nutshell, unfortunately.
Seriously though, the continued removal of wavedashing reeeeally hurt them, and it continues to do so.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm surprised no body has mentioned this, but pros discovered when shielding during mid-dash, it halts all movement (meaning you don't slide like in other games), so I see potential in it making fake-outs or baiting whiffs.

Oh yeah, run up shield is definitely really legit in this game since you can shield drop so fast.

 

[Terotrous]

Samus in a Luigi in a nutshell, unfortunately.
Seriously though, the continued removal of wavedashing reeeeally hurt them, and it continues to do so.

I actually don't feel it's that true of Samus. Zair is a fairly solid approach, or you can just use projectiles until they come to you. Luigi might have a bit more trouble, but if all else fails there's always Nair.

 

[AshBoomstick]

I found a alternative to wave dashing that i call pivot dashing that is similar to wave dashing just a tad slower. You can do any action out of it just like wave dashing amd it does not involve shielding. Im going to post a vid later tonight of it in action.

 

[Hayzie]

King Dedede player rolled and grabbed more than anything. They won. Same player chose R.O.B. the next two matches. R.O.B. the Roller pissed me off to no end.

I'd say it's good in this game, though. I like it. If a roll is going to be in the game (as it has been), then why not make it better than before? This game is equally as offensive as it is defensive, give or take.

 

[Liam_Butler]

I was actually thinking of Spot Dodge is the parry mechanic, but they're all kind of related.

That makes more sense.

I found a alternative to wave dashing that i call pivot dashing that is similar to wave dashing just a tad slower. You can do any action out of it just like wave dashing amd it does not involve shielding. Im going to post a vid later tonight of it in action.

Will you put a link on this thread? I'm interested in that.

 

[AshBoomstick]

That makes more sense.


Will you put a link on this thread? I'm interested in that.

Yes, after I am off work later tonight I should be able to put together the video and will post it here.

 

[Liam_Butler]

Yes, after I am off work later tonight I should be able to put together the video and will post it here.

Thank you very much.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Most of people's problems with rolls I think comes from netplay delay. It's much more difficult to nail a move that requires some amount of timing precision than it is to lean on some invincibility frames and shift your position defensively. I don't think it's imbalanced, it's just very low-effort in an online environment.

 

[Sleek Media]

I was actually thinking of Spot Dodge is the parry mechanic, but they're all kind of related.

And yeah, there do seem to be some characters who struggle at approaching and also lack any obvious means to force the opponent to come to them, but every game is going to have a few characters who are poorly designed.

Wow, someone else finally recognizes the similarity to 3rd Strike. I actually think power shielding is functionally identical to parrying, though less risky. I've been using power shields to close out a lot of stocks online.

 

[Terotrous]

Wow, someone else finally recognizes the similarity to 3rd Strike. I actually think power shielding is functionally identical to parrying, though less risky. I've been using power shields to close out a lot of stocks online.

I've been saying it for years to FGC members who claim that Smash is not legitimate because you have such potentially strong defensive options. Thankfully over the last year and a bit they finally seem to have realized that Smash is indeed a competitive fighting game.

 

[Quillion]

lol you gotta predict where they are going to roll. being agro in this game requires perception and the abillity to read.

So does that mean the Mighty Glaciers are given the short end of the stick again?

Everyone's saying that the heavies are better, but they're still as slow as ever.

 

[Terotrous]

So does that mean the Mighty Glaciers are given the short end of the stick again?

Everyone's saying that the heavies are better, but they're still as slow as ever.

It's mostly just Bowser who's better, because he's a lot faster.

 

[Quillion]

It's mostly just Bowser who's better, because he's a lot faster.

Meaning , (who has no chaingrab), and especially are still bad.

 

[響「Hibiki」]

When you're saying that you need to roll to keep up with your opponents rolling, there's something fundamentally wrong with your perception of how Smash 4 works.

Spend some more time with the game and you will realize that mindlessly rolling around will only lead to your eventual downfall by the hands of a player who actually knows how to play this generation of Smash.

Sorry if I'm offending you or anything, but if Smashboards had a dime for every time someone complained about rolls, projectiles or supposedly "broken" characters, they could host their own EVO.

 

[Liam_Butler]

When you're saying that you need to roll to keep up with your opponents rolling, there's something fundamentally wrong with your perception of how Smash 4 works.

Spend some more time with the game and you will realize that mindlessly rolling around will only lead to your eventual downfall by the hands of a player who actually knows how to play this generation of Smash.

Sorry if I'm offending you or anything, but if Smashboards had a dime for every time someone complained about rolls, projectiles or supposedly "broken" characters, they could host their own EVO.

Oh, don't worry. I'm not offended. I know I'm trash at Smash 4. I still try and play it like Melee, and I know I need to work on it. I wanted to know if others were experiencing similar difficulties or related to my struggles in adapting. And if anyone knew reliable approach methods and stuff.

 

[CosmicFuzz]

It's annoying online due to the lag and the fact that every stage is FD. If we had platforms to move around, rolling wouldn't be as prevalent as it is now. For now, either D-Smash or moves with lingering hitboxes work wonders.