Does rolling kill the fun?

[XDaDePsak]

Rolling itself doesnt urk me

I think you mean irk.

 

[Terotrous]

Although you can punish rolls with a hard enough read and good timing, there isn't much of a reward for doing so.
You may get one or two hits in but you are better off rolling around like a moron too until they have to approach you.
My hype for this game is slowly dwindling due to the sheer lack of skill it takes to avoid being hit.

A charged Smash attack isn't reward? That's like the highest reward this game has to offer other than Rest or KO punch.

 

[GONZLAMM]

so what about characters like rosalina, link, lil mac, lucario, pikachu, shiek, zs samus. the lag on rolls is almost non existent. and dear god ROB is the worst offender. "hey guys lets give rob 3 aerials that have 0 landing lag and the fastest roll in the game, oh AND 3 PROJECTILES. FUN!!!"

 

[KrymsonSkyz]

I didn't read the whole thread, but do we have frame data on rolls?

I read from someone that there's only a 3 frame punish window (from roll spam) which seems ridiculous. I just wanna confirm if that ****'s true or not

 

[Jaur]

I'd really like to see a full set of frame data for this game like traditional fighting games have nowadays. That would be magic.

 

[SevenYearItch]

Online lag My internet connection is the problem.

Fixed for you because its peer 2 peer connections for online.

 

[JipC]

As a Melee player, I picked up Smash 4 in hopes of possibly returning to Melee like gameplay. But, playing online, I notice that rolling is a huge problem. It seems too good, to me at least. It is such a good tool for escaping, which is fine in all, but since there is no reliable approach method (I.E. Wavedashing), you have to roll to catch up with the person rolling. Which isn't fun. Jumping at them doesn't work, because they can roll and not get punished. You can't dash at them because you'll get rolled. You can't approach because rolls. So you have to approach with rolls. And then it is just two people rolling and rolling, until someone throws at a move, and gets punished. Repeat. Am I the only one who notices this? Does someone know a reliable counter to rolling, outside a hard read? Am I stupid, and I don't understand Smash?

For some characters its not so much of a big deal but like... Little Mac, Palutena, Rosalina... Man it's so boring.
Usually the first objections that I hear about when complaining about rolls is "lol dude just get good its so easy to punish them!!"
What fun is a game where you do nothing but punish/read rolls for half the match? There's no reason they should be this good. Plus Little Mac's is damn god like, I really would like to see how fast he can do it when roll buffering with the c-stick, if that's in the WiiU version.

 

[Hitzel]

Fixed for you because its peer 2 peer connections for online.

Not really. The way this game plays online, there's always some sort of input delay. This makes punishing some rolls hell since you have to be so unusually precise to punish them in the first place.

 

[Niala]

While it is punishable, it's still a downright nuisance. But then again, I've always been in favour of getting rid of rolling completely and only having spotdodging so, I'm probably just biased.

 

[SevenYearItch]

Not really. The way this game plays online, there's always some sort of input delay. This makes punishing some rolls hell since you have to be so unusually precise to punish them in the first place.

I almost never have this issue since the input delay is usually very very minimal. If you're experiencing any bad lag consistently, its your internet connection

 

[Quillion]

I almost never have this issue since the input delay is usually very very minimal. If you're experiencing any bad lag consistently, its your internet connection

Well not everyone can have a super-fast expensive internet connection, so it's not entirely someone's fault for that.

While it is punishable, it's still a downright nuisance. But then again, I've always been in favour of getting rid of rolling completely and only having spotdodging so, I'm probably just biased.

No, rolling should still be there since it adds variety. It just needs to be nerfed. I suggested earlier that rolling should be kept as good as it is now, if not made better, but rolling too much (like four times in a row) causes you to trip.

 

[SevenYearItch]

Well not everyone can have a super-fast expensive internet connection, so it's not entirely someone's fault for that.

Can't complain about bad connections if you don't have good internet.

 

[Niala]

No, rolling should still be there since it adds variety. It just needs to be nerfed. I suggested earlier that rolling should be kept as good as it is now, if not made better, but rolling too much (like four times in a row) causes you to trip.

I have a very different opinion, personally. I realize not everybody shares this, but mine is as such: I believe that rolling is something that cannot be balanced. It will either be too strong or too weak, there is no successful middle ground. That is why I don't care for it as a mechanic and why I would prefer to see it gone.

It's not going anywhere, I'm not delusional. I'm fully aware that it's been in 4 Smash games now (soon to be 5,) and it will probably stay through the life of the series. All I mean to say is if I were the creator, I would have it removed or make a very good effort to balance it properly.

 

[Quillion]

I have a very different opinion, personally. I realize not everybody shares this, but mine is as such: I believe that rolling is something that cannot be balanced. It will either be too strong or too weak, there is no successful middle ground. That is why I don't care for it as a mechanic and why I would prefer to see it gone.

It's not going anywhere, I'm not delusional. I'm fully aware that it's been in 4 Smash games now (soon to be 5,) and it will probably stay through the life of the series. All I mean to say is if I were the creator, I would have it removed or make a very good effort to balance it properly.

The way I see it, rolling is a "noob option" in Melee, and if I'm correct, this is what people want it to be. It should be used at low-to-mid-level play since players at those levels won't be able to punish well. At high-level play, it should be very easily punishable as constantly rolling around in SSB4 just allows the roller to control the pace of the match instead of the attacker.

 

[LancerStaff]

If I can time Pit's arrows to punish a roll from across the stage, I think there's enough time to punish them with normal moves. Like, bust out some SH Nairs or something.

 

[Quillion]

If I can time Pit's arrows to punish a roll from across the stage, I think there's enough time to punish them with normal moves. Like, bust out some SH Nairs or something.

Too difficult; we either need less safe rolls or easier roll-punishing all around. It's not fun when defense-breaking is down to precision timing.

 

[LancerStaff]

Too difficult; we either need less safe rolls or easier roll-punishing all around. It's not fun when defense-breaking is down to precision timing.

Don't you have any attacks that last longer then a moment? Who do you play as? Because if you have an aerial like Mario's or Pit's, there's really no timing involved.

 

[Quillion]

Another thing, rolling apologists are claiming that roll spammers are predictable.

What if we're going up against someone who's alternating between roll spamming and bum rushing? Roll spamming is still rewarded in that case.

 

[LancerStaff]

Another thing, rolling apologists are claiming that roll spammers are predictable.

What if we're going up against someone who's alternating between roll spamming and bum rushing? Roll spamming is still rewarded in that case.

Then defend against the bum-rushing with roll spam. He shouldn't be able to counter if what you say is true.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I'm not talking competitively at all when I say: melee handled it's rolling mechanic way better than the recent installments, rolling had ending lag meaning that you needed to predict when to use it rather than throwing it out carelessly to gain distance from your opponent.

 

[Chaozrush21]

I been trying to cut down on my rolling lately.It just a annoying habit I have.Sorry to anybody that battle me online when I was was spamming it.

 

[Funkermonster]

For me, kinda yeah. Its not a game breaker and there are still multiple ways to deal with rolling, but I still think its very annoying to do nonetheless. I should know, I've killed and got killed for overusing them.

 

[KILLAKREED]

like alot of people have already said you do gotta just get good at predictions and punish them according to what characters are being used.

but i do think rolls should be nerfed still the should be something that a person with good timing does like the spot dodge and not something to spam. a little ending lag added should fix the problem

 

[chipndip]

CPUs are especially guilty of abusing it, but yeah air dodges having 22 frames of landing lag is good, but air dodges seem to end before hitting the ground anyway so you can't really punish it that well. Rolling is a non issue, even Sheiks short hops is better than rolling, infinite air dodges are way too safe sometimes.

You DO understand this game can have up to 4 people playing at once, soon to be 8? You can't have just one air dodge, or one air dodge and a HUGE open window afterwords, especially since there's already an open window if you hit the ground. Just give chase, beat them to the ground, and hit them there.

I am too used to Melee, that's probably true. And, if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, I don't think I would liken Parrying to Rolling, but I know what you mean. I've played tons of Third Strike, so I understand what you mean, being too predictable means you will eat a combo, so you got to mix it up. Mixing up approaches as some characters is hard, which is why (here's my melee purist side), I wish there was something similar to wavedashing that all characters have and use to approach. (Obviously some characters benefit more from Wavedashing than others, but the general idea of a solid approach for each character is what I want, besides what is standard) It may be discovered eventually, it may not. Maybe I'm stuck in the past on that topic though.

Not gonna lie, a lot of people I know that don't like this game or how things in it work are mainly Melee players. I always warned them that this game wasn't going backwards, but they didn't listen.

Regardless, rolls aren't broken. Strong? Yes, but not broken, and it compensates for the nerfed air defense (getting attacked from below is much more deadly in this game since they can fast fall and punish your landing with a full-on smash attack or something). We can't have all the defensive options be weak as crap. That isn't smart design. That's just making another UMvC3 all over again. Just play with patience and foresight, and you can punish the rolls better. I personally go for shields more than rolls, myself. I'd rather just block and punish, rather than possibly get d-smashed or read out-right. That doesn't mean I don't roll at all, but mastering both shields and rolls is gonna boost your game way more than just roll spamming.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

You DO understand this game can have up to 4 people playing at once, soon to be 8? You can't have just one air dodge, or one air dodge and a HUGE open window afterwords, especially since there's already an open window if you hit the ground. Just give chase, beat them to the ground, and hit them there.



Not gonna lie, a lot of people I know that don't like this game or how things in it work are mainly Melee players. I always warned them that this game wasn't going backwards, but they didn't listen.

Regardless, rolls aren't broken. Strong? Yes, but not broken, and it compensates for the nerfed air defense (getting attacked from below is much more deadly in this game since they can fast fall and punish your landing with a full-on smash attack or something). We can't have all the defensive options be weak as crap. That isn't smart design. That's just making another UMvC3 all over again. Just play with patience and foresight, and you can punish the rolls better. I personally go for shields more than rolls, myself. I'd rather just block and punish, rather than possibly get d-smashed or read out-right. That doesn't mean I don't roll at all, but mastering both shields and rolls is gonna boost your game way more than just roll spamming.

Ending lag would make the most sense as a nerf, people don't spam the roll cause it looks cool, it's because it gives the best results for them. I hate it because it wastes time and forces me to play the waiting game and some roles are so fast they literally have to be rolling into a hit to get hit

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

They should make it to where invincibility frames on rolls diminish. If you can install a ledge grab timer and a regrab timer you can figure out how to make rolling punishable after spamming it.

Oh and air dodges are spammable too. You think they can't air dodge into the ground? Lol , you can cancel air dodge animations in this game with aerials. I can Short Hop Airdodge > Any aerial with Marth, so I get rewarded with an option for using an Airdodge lower to the ground. You couldn't even do that in Brawl.

This game is getting more busted by the day.

 

[AstraEDM]

It's the unholy combination of rolling being stupid safe, every stage being final destination, the bit of input lag, and the semi-janky controls of the 3ds.
Sucks the fun out of for glory IMO

 

[chipndip]

Ending lag would make the most sense as a nerf, people don't spam the roll cause it looks cool, it's because it gives the best results for them. I hate it because it wastes time and forces me to play the waiting game and some roles are so fast they literally have to be rolling into a hit to get hit

But some characters have VERY fast dashes. With nerfed rolls, Shiek would be unstoppable once she gets rolling. Wth this, she at least has to time her attacks to keep pressure on.

Which leads me to my main gripe: Why is it that when a game has functional defensive mechanics, people get all bothered like it's an issue? Melee's defensive mechanics SUCKED. I have no idea why people referred to that game's rolls. People just shffled all over the place rather than actually dodging attacks. Now that the game works as intended, there's a problem? Maybe some character specific rolls might need some nerfs, but there's definitely no need for a cast-wide roll nerf. Personally, I'm rather fine the way it is.

They should make it to where invincibility frames on rolls diminish. If you can install a ledge grab timer and a regrab timer you can figure out how to make rolling punishable after spamming it.

Oh and air dodges are spammable too. You think they can't air dodge into the ground? Lol , you can cancel air dodge animations in this game with aerials. I can Short Hop Airdodge > Any aerial with Marth, so I get rewarded with an option for using an Airdodge lower to the ground. You couldn't even do that in Brawl.

This game is getting more busted by the day.

You can short hop air dodge -> aerial attack, duh, but you can't easily air dodge while trying to recover from an air chase, while still cutting the animation short with an aerial. So no, you're wrong. Spamming air dodge is still gonna get you punished against a quick/smart opponent. Using one air dodge before canceling it into an aerial, which is canceled by the ground, isn't even "spamming" air dodges in a similar likeness to Brawl.

 

[Liam_Butler]

Not gonna lie, a lot of people I know that don't like this game or how things in it work are mainly Melee players. I always warned them that this game wasn't going backwards, but they didn't listen.

I play Melee, but all the reasons I dislike this game have nothing to do with Melee (at least the competitive side).

 

[XxBHunterxX]

But some characters have VERY fast dashes. With nerfed rolls, Shiek would be unstoppable once she gets rolling. Wth this, she at least has to time her attacks to keep pressure on.

Which leads me to my main gripe: Why is it that when a game has functional defensive mechanics, people get all bothered like it's an issue? Melee's defensive mechanics SUCKED. I have no idea why people referred to that game's rolls. People just shffled all over the place rather than actually dodging attacks. Now that the game works as intended, there's a problem? Maybe some character specific rolls might need some nerfs, but there's definitely no need for a cast-wide roll nerf. Personally, I'm rather fine the way it is.

Of course rolling too much has a penalty, but sakurai made way too hard to expose it. to punish a roll on a fast character like Mac or greninja your reads have to be way harder than their reads when they use the roll, you need to know where they will end up and what attacks reach and when to use it, all they need to know is that you'll attack. A better solution would be if the roll was used in succession way too much it would get gain ending lag basically it would be like move decay for rolls

Also I don't roll when fighting sheik she's a combo character and her smash attacks are fairly slow so she wouldnt use them often enough to attempt to roll spam her. Throwing out nairs is a better option to keep the pressure off

 

[Quillion]

Then defend against the bum-rushing with roll spam. He shouldn't be able to counter if what you say is true.

Do you see the problem then? Roll spamming is way too powerful.

They should make it to where invincibility frames on rolls diminish. If you can install a ledge grab timer and a regrab timer you can figure out how to make rolling punishable after spamming it.

Oh and air dodges are spammable too. You think they can't air dodge into the ground? Lol , you can cancel air dodge animations in this game with aerials. I can Short Hop Airdodge > Any aerial with Marth, so I get rewarded with an option for using an Airdodge lower to the ground. You couldn't even do that in Brawl.

This game is getting more busted by the day.

No, it just means you're using the game's mechanics to your advantage. Those kinds of cancels aren't any different from wavedashing.

 

[Quillion]

Melee's defensive mechanics SUCKED.

That's what made them GOOD. Melee's defensive options were "noob options"; they were useful at low-level play, but at high level play they're fun to punish and force you to have more creativity with your approaches and hit-and-runs.

 

[Liam_Butler]

That's what made them GOOD. Melee's defensive options were "noob options"; they were useful at low-level play, but at high level play they're fun to punish and force you to have more creativity with your approaches and hit-and-runs.

That is one of the reasons Melee got to be so fast, is because defense is non existent, you're forced to be offensive. Makes it more fun all around. Lame options still exist, however, so it doesn't run into Third Strikes problem of "I can't play defensively" (disclaimer, Third Strike is my favorite video game, but I know its flaws), forcing you to constantly be offensively. Melee and Third Strike have the same speed factors like that, but a defensive is possible in Melee. It just isn't strong.

One problem I have with 4 is that defense gets rewarded too much. It doesn't have the offensive/defensive balance of something like Ultra Street Fighter 4. Melee leaned towards offense, 4 and Brawl are leaning a bit too far into defense for my liking.

 

[Lord P Wallington]

It's annoying online due to the lag and the fact that every stage is FD. If we had platforms to move around, rolling wouldn't be as prevalent as it is now. For now, either D-Smash or moves with lingering hitboxes work wonders.

Did anything come out of the rumor that you could play battlefield online?

 

[wingedarcher7]

I want to say that if someone is only constantly rolling, it shouldn't be impossible to predict them, but even with that, rolling is way too safe in this game. You can guess what they'll do, but by the time that happens, they're rolling somewhere else already. This game is all about defending and punishing more than it as about trying to be offensive and land hits.

 

[LancerStaff]

Do you see the problem then? Roll spamming is way too powerful.

Lolno, I'm using your own, flawed, logic to solve a problem that only exists in your head. If your logic was true, the game would revolve around roll spam in tournaments. Show me that's how people win tournaments. If it's not, it's an incredibly stupid tactic that only noobs will use.

Did anything come out of the rumor that you could play battlefield online?

Adding in a random Battlefield to FD would cause more problems then solutions.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Lolno, I'm using your own, flawed, logic to solve a problem that only exists in your head. If your logic was true, the game would revolve around roll spam in tournaments. Show me that's how people win tournaments. If it's not, it's an incredibly stupid tactic that only noobs will use.



Adding in a random Battlefield to FD would cause more problems then solutions.

How? Battle field would at least add more variety and FD isn't that balance because it promotes a very linear fighting style. I don't see how it would cause problems at all unless you use characters who benefit on FD and don't want to change that

 

[Liam_Butler]

Lolno, I'm using your own, flawed, logic to solve a problem that only exists in your head. If your logic was true, the game would revolve around roll spam in tournaments. Show me that's how people win tournaments. If it's not, it's an incredibly stupid tactic that only noobs will use.



Adding in a random Battlefield to FD would cause more problems then solutions.

I'm not seeing any problems with Battlefield in For Glory

 

[Lord P Wallington]

Lolno, I'm using your own, flawed, logic to solve a problem that only exists in your head. If your logic was true, the game would revolve around roll spam in tournaments. Show me that's how people win tournaments. If it's not, it's an incredibly stupid tactic that only noobs will use.



Adding in a random Battlefield to FD would cause more problems then solutions.

I think what everyone is wondering is how specifically can you punish rolls like pros enough that they aren't viable to spam. They obviously arent done in top tournaments, but no one can give a straight answer on how to punish them.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

lol is this just a complain about roll and not do anything to competitivly counter it? Be cause if not this thread has been answerd already with mixed opinions. some like it some don't and any form of debate is just being dismissed by the opposite party. This threads purpose is starting to look like an elusive hate thread.