Does rolling kill the fun?

[Dsull]

Rolling itself doesnt urk me. What ticks me off is when people somehow manage to ignore the "delays" after a roll or attack or grab and immediately roll again/dodge.

Faced a Rosalina earlier that kept rolling after she failgrabbed me faster than i could grounddodge and tap A, and dashing in to grab me again before my ONE PUNCH animation was over letting me roll/dodge. Yet every time i miss a grab because of grounddodge or rolling away, he could dash attack or even SMASH me before i could do anything since i missed my attack.
Occationally i face people like that and it leads me to believe theres some form of wavedashing in this game, but it cuts the lag animations without a graphical glitch (the sliding without moving thing). He could dash, grab, roll, dash, grab again before i could even flitch because of my lag animations (no matter who im using, not just lucario).

Really pisses me off when i cant hit someone doing this unless i can overpower what theyre doing, which as Lucario i typically cant until im almost dead (Lucario does like no damage under 40% lol). If i try to hit them during the "lag" animation they get away, even if i am so close im surprised i didnt get hit/grabbed.

 

[Redcard]

It's not that it's difficult to predict or beat or anything, but it's just not fun to deal with.
And it gets bad when you're against a character with projectiles when you're lacking any. Perfect Shielding is pretty hard with the input lag in FG.

 

[Rysir]

Rolling in general is not a fun killer but it does fuel a fire when its spammed after you do something your opponent did not count on/like.

Faced a Rosalina who would spam rolls every time I killed luma and would do nothing but rolls with a few down smashes here and there till luma came back and then the process repeats when luma is killed again, I eventually won with a good old B-air to the face but jeez some people need a back up plan that is not roll spamming.

 

[Clemente]

Rolling is the worst part of Smash 4.
A lot of people will claim to be able to punish rollers but they're really just BSing. There are only a handful of characters who can punish roll spam, and even then you have to get somewhat lucky.

For example in the case of Pit my main, continuous rolls can easily dodge an entire forward smash and down smash, and both have multiple hits. And I don't have a continuous attack such as Ness dash attack for example.

And a lot of characters are in that boat.

 

[Quillion]

Rolling will most likely kill the competitive scene, I'm almost convinced at this point.

A lot of people will claim to be able to punish rollers but they're really just BSing. There are only a handful of characters who can punish roll spam, and even then you have to get somewhat lucky.

For example in the case of Pit my main, continuous rolls can easily dodge an entire forward smash and down smash, and both have multiple hits. And I don't have a continuous attack such as Ness dash attack for example.

And a lot of characters are in that boat.

Are you rolling backwards? Because if you're using a roll to react to a finisher before it comes out, of course the attack won't hit.

 

[Clemente]

Are you rolling backwards? Because if you're using a roll to react to a finisher before it comes out, of course the attack won't hit.

Sorry it won't kill the competitive scene (it will just make it more short lived because defensive play is boring to watch).

No I'm talking about characters who can roll around you and still dodge down smashes if they do it continuously. There is not enough lag after using a roll.

Someone mentioned the same about air dodging, and I agree with that too...

Oh, don't worry. I'm not offended. I know I'm trash at Smash 4. I still try and play it like Melee, and I know I need to work on it. I wanted to know if others were experiencing similar difficulties or related to my struggles in adapting. And if anyone knew reliable approach methods and stuff.

Just ignore everything Hibiki has to say. He tries to convince people that he's good by being condescending and rude in every post. Self hating weaboo.

 

[lijero13ss]

Maybe rolling is going to become a viable competitive aspect and we all should learn to roll competitively......

 

[Quillion]

We need a definitive video demonstration or we won't come to any conclusions.

 

[Orngeblu]

It's harder to punish online times, depends on the connection, but ultimately harder regardless of connection. (I mean Smash 4 still has input lag, just to a lesser degree, which is good)

It's pretty damn annoying when your opponent is just rolling around the stage and you have to chase them. I can punish them, but it just stalls the match even further. I usually don't have a problem unless it's seriously getting on my nerves, or the lag is unbearable.

 

[Captain Norris]

lol. Everyone thinks that tolling will make the competitive scene go sour? Are you serious? Rolling is really only decent at best in For Glory, in which there IS lag in some slight form. Rolling normally is very punishable with grabs.
Good competitive people know rolling is not nearly as beneficial as people make it out. They will not use it much in the real scene, meaning that it is not going to be "short-lived"

 

[Clemente]

lol. Everyone thinks that tolling will make the competitive scene go sour? Are you serious? Rolling is really only decent at best in For Glory, in which there IS lag in some slight form. Rolling normally is very punishable with grabs.
Good competitive people know rolling is not nearly as beneficial as people make it out. They will not use it much in the real scene, meaning that it is not going to be "short-lived"

I misspoke, I guess what I'm just saying is that it makes the game less fun, much more boring to watch, much more slow paced.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Meaning , (who has no chaingrab), and especially are still bad.

lol dis huy just said dedede was bad. and g dorf is awsome and the prime example of a character you gotta make reqds with. well at least in zero's opinion.

 

[SmashAdr]

it is fun when they rolling backwards all the time to get away from you.. you are aggressive and have to figure how his patterns and feels satisfying when you beat them lol

 

[Captain Norris]

I misspoke, I guess what I'm just saying is that it makes the game less fun, much more boring to watch, much more slow paced.

-sigh- not really. When they roll, they will be punished by a dash grab, and that will be chained into aerial attacks and such. From the tourneys that have been played, virtually nobody uses infinite amounts of rolls because they know it is a bad decision. The only place you really see rolls is in For glory, and that is purely because there is a lack of platforms.
Rolling IS boring to watch. But it is punishable.

 

[Vino.]

I think they're by far the most annoying part of smash 4.

 

[Clemente]

-sigh- not really. When they roll, they will be punished by a dash grab, and that will be chained into aerial attacks and such. From the tourneys that have been played, virtually nobody uses infinite amounts of rolls because they know it is a bad decision. The only place you really see rolls is in For glory, and that is purely because there is a lack of platforms.
Rolling IS boring to watch. But it is punishable.

You're forgetting that not every character is Captain Falcon when it comes to dash grabbing. There are definitely characters who can punish rolling. Also there's characters like Shulk whose attacks last too long and reach too far for roll spamming to be very effective, like his down smash. But a lot of characters can't do anything vs. rolling.

It should have a delay, and it was poorly implemented as is. I'm not sure if you're defending it as something good or what. The way roll was implemented is just bad IMO.

 

[Captain Norris]

You're forgetting that not every character is Captain Falcon when it comes to dash grabbing. There are definitely characters who can punish rolling. Also there's characters like Shulk whose attacks last too long and reach too far for roll spamming to be very effective, like his down smash. But a lot of characters can't do anything vs. rolling.

It should have a delay, and it was poorly implemented as is. I'm not sure if you're defending it as something good or what. The way roll was implemented is just bad IMO.

Not every character NEEDS a dash grab like Falcon. They just need a grab. You read the roll, and punish it with a grab. The only ones who cannot use this method are those with tether grabs.
Almost all characters are able to do something against roll spam.

I am not saying that the rolling could have been implemented better. What I AM saying is that rolling is not, and should not, be considered "Op."
Besides, not all toll spams are even that effective.

I don't even get why everyone assumes I am using Captain Falcon in my examples. Sure I like him, and I play with him, but he is not usually my primary example. That is why I never mention him specifically, cause I am not alluding to him.

 

[Clemente]

Not every character NEEDS a dash grab like Falcon. They just need a grab. You read the roll, and punish it with a grab. The only ones who cannot use this method are those with tether grabs.
Almost all characters are able to do something against roll spam.

I am not saying that the rolling could have been implemented better. What I AM saying is that rolling is not, and should not, be considered "Op."
Besides, not all toll spams are even that effective.

I don't even get why everyone assumes I am using Captain Falcon in my examples. Sure I like him, and I play with him, but he is not usually my primary example. That is why I never mention him specifically, cause I am not alluding to him.

When people are saying it's overpowered in this case, they're saying it's too strong as implemented, and that is true. It is too forgivable. People are often using rolls to move, which is silly.

I assumed you were talking about CF because if someone is continuously rolling directly away from you not every character is fast enough to punish them with a grab, or at least, you will be very predictable. But I'm sure it works well on CF and other really fast moving characters.

 

[Quillion]

I remember in Kid Icarus Uprising that there was this rolling-like thing where if you dash really close to an attack, you become invincible and it doesn't hit you.

But if you try to do it repeatedly, you suffer lag at the end which gets you hit.

Why couldn't they implement THAT into SSB4? That's a PERFECT way of giving you an easy-to-use effective defense option while punishing you for being overreliant on it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Rolling is the worst part of Smash 4.
A lot of people will claim to be able to punish rollers but they're really just BSing. There are only a handful of characters who can punish roll spam, and even then you have to get somewhat lucky.

For example in the case of Pit my main, continuous rolls can easily dodge an entire forward smash and down smash, and both have multiple hits. And I don't have a continuous attack such as Ness dash attack for example.

And a lot of characters are in that boat.

I punish those rolling away from me by shooting an arrow with the right timing. Not that hard after charging. If they camp, I outcamp them. Force an approach from roll spammer and punish, as they usually don't have the capacity to mix up their attacks.

I remember in Kid Icarus Uprising that there was this rolling-like thing where if you dash really close to an attack, you become invincible and it doesn't hit you.

But if you try to do it repeatedly, you suffer lag at the end which gets you hit.

Why couldn't they implement THAT into SSB4? That's a PERFECT way of giving you an easy-to-use effective defense option while punishing you for being overreliant on it.

Doing it repeatedly just lowered the invincibility frames to a certain point. Recharging takes only a moment. Only way you'll get the edge, in in a typical DCS vs DCS duel, is waiting for them to shoot and shoot them back during the endlag. Realistically, such a mechanic in SSB would disrupt more then it helps, especially in the solo modes.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Rolling is pretty bad. It is too fast with too much invincibility frames. A Mac that knows how to roll with his armor is near invincible to most of the cast. It is not impossible to fight against but I think the super rolls were put in to compensate for landing lag and other things that lower defenses, to make the game more friendly to casual play. Instead it makes it less friendly and far more annoying to play against.

 

[Terotrous]

No I'm talking about characters who can roll around you and still dodge down smashes if they do it continuously. There is not enough lag after using a roll.

While rolls are more safe in this game compared to previous games, they all still have frames of vulnerability at both the start and the end. Your total punish window is probably around 10-15 frames. When attempting to roll punish with a down smash, you may need to charge the attack so you can time the appearance of the hitboxes to punish. Make sure you get used to the timing of your down smash because they vary.

 

[AshBoomstick]

That makes more sense.


Will you put a link on this thread? I'm interested in that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhuHIFXrRhw&feature=youtu.be

Dash dancing alternative, Pivot dancing
Any move (tilts, smash, dash attack, specials) can be done out of pivot dancing
Tested only for a couple of hours today, much better use possible with practice
Some characters have better pivot dancing then others
Slower and more defensive then dash dancing
Must be used more sparingly then dash dancing
You will not use as often as I do in video
Used too often will result in punish
A more defensive option to mix up attacks
May be able to be done quicker on Gamecube controller

Let me know what you all think about how else this can be used! Hit me up on youtubehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEBwthcpWBTQXscn8bpS6Q or on 3ds for a match! Friend code (2809 7728 1923)

 

[LinkNIvy]

Approaching with rolls is incredibly punishable. It's not safe at all.

 

[Laltrack]

It's actually not that hard to punish rolls.
Dsmash, Projectiles, Grabs.. there are lots of ways to counter someone doing infinite rolls.
In the worst case scenario you can stand still and wait till the roller stops rolling and tries that classic roll+dash attack/dash grab combo.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

LinkNivy, Laltrack, and most of all AshBoomstick are right on this one. Generally rollspamming is terrible because almost every move in the game is designed to set you up for a counter attack just after you've executed it, so spamming a move, especially rolling, can get you into major trouble, and make you predictable. Also, Dsull, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason your opponent could do all that stuff is because if he's shielding, even for a fraction of a second, I think he can use those moves pretty much lagless out of shield because there's no/minimal shield delay in this game. Don't hate rolling, hate sakurai for taking out shield delay. Also, if I said anything thats wrong/untrue, please correct me so I can be a better more informed player.

 

[no1butmenotu]

As a Melee player, I picked up Smash 4 in hopes of possibly returning to Melee like gameplay. But, playing online, I notice that rolling is a huge problem. It seems too good, to me at least. It is such a good tool for escaping, which is fine in all, but since there is no reliable approach method (I.E. Wavedashing), you have to roll to catch up with the person rolling. Which isn't fun. Jumping at them doesn't work, because they can roll and not get punished. You can't dash at them because you'll get rolled. You can't approach because rolls. So you have to approach with rolls. And then it is just two people rolling and rolling, until someone throws at a move, and gets punished. Repeat. Am I the only one who notices this? Does someone know a reliable counter to rolling, outside a hard read? Am I stupid, and I don't understand Smash?

Mind games is pretty much how I counter it. Excessive rolling can be predictable at times and sometimes I do stuff that deters people from rolling. For example, Charizard is one of my mains. An answer to counter the rolling is to use my down smash. It's pretty much a guaranteed hit even if they roll behind me. Other times I just rush at where they are going to roll to, then grab them.

 

[TheBlossomingLily]

When I first started playing I was much too used to previous Smash games and kept on attempting punishes a bit too late against rolls, so I can understand that frustration.
With time I've adjusted to properly timing my punishes against rolls though. I have my friend who plays to thank for that since he's kept that "Brawl-Lucario" habit of rolling a lot.

 

[Quillion]

Doing it repeatedly just lowered the invincibility frames to a certain point. Recharging takes only a moment. Only way you'll get the edge, in in a typical DCS vs DCS duel, is waiting for them to shoot and shoot them back during the endlag. Realistically, such a mechanic in SSB would disrupt more then it helps, especially in the solo modes.

How? Making the roll increasingly vulnerable after repeated spamming wouldn't disrupt the game at all provided that you only roll twice or thrice or so and after your "roll counter" is up, the endlag of the roll is increased or you get no more invincibility. Or you could make it that an "extra roll" forces you to trip at the end.

It's a very simple change, and it would help Smash immensely since the developers have done nothing but strengthen basic defensive options since Brawl. They've already forcibly removed planking, now they could forcibly deter roll spamming given that it's been strengthened to the point of near-brokenness.

 

[LittlePac]

Punish roll spammers all day. There are a million ways to do this. space so they cant roll behind you often. if they roll away too close many characters can dash attack them as they exit the animation, for me personally I like to dash and use pacman's tether grab which has a lot of frames that "latch" on to the other character, so it doesn't require super precise timing.

it comes with experience but rollers are painfully predictable. i use it mainly as an oh **** button.

recently played a falcon that literally wouldn't walk or run, would just roll to get wherever he wanted to go on the stage. was cracking me up, it looked so stupid.

 

[LittlePac]

Rolling is the worst part of Smash 4.
A lot of people will claim to be able to punish rollers but they're really just BSing. There are only a handful of characters who can punish roll spam, and even then you have to get somewhat lucky.

For example in the case of Pit my main, continuous rolls can easily dodge an entire forward smash and down smash, and both have multiple hits. And I don't have a continuous attack such as Ness dash attack for example.

And a lot of characters are in that boat.

I don't think I've seen you make a single post yet that isn't whining about something.

 

[yahooda]

Rolling in smash 4 is similar to wavedashing but with invincibility frames and being punishable at the end of the animation.

 

[LancerStaff]

How? Making the roll increasingly vulnerable after repeated spamming wouldn't disrupt the game at all provided that you only roll twice or thrice or so and after your "roll counter" is up, the endlag of the roll is increased or you get no more invincibility. Or you could make it that an "extra roll" forces you to trip at the end.

It's a very simple change, and it would help Smash immensely since the developers have done nothing but strengthen basic defensive options since Brawl. They've already forcibly removed planking, now they could forcibly deter roll spamming given that it's been strengthened to the point of near-brokenness.

For one, it makes dealing with projectiles harder. Rolling in of itself has been a poor option up until now, and it's still not that great. We don't need it weakened again. It's just not necessary.

 

[ChikoLad]

Characters like Sonic can punish rolls like it's nobody's business, since they can quite literally outrun the rolls and be right on top of the opponent for when they are open. I have great fun doing this on Little Macs. You have quite a few options too - you can dash attack on them, short hop into an aerial, do a sliding Up Smash, grab them, or pivot tilt them.

Rosalina is also very good at punishing MOST character's rolls. I often send Luma Shot at them while they are trying to roll about. It's actually kinda simple to time. N-Air spam also does the trick against roll spamming, and you can also use Star Bits to catch them off guard. In general, people also tend to forget about Luma when he is wandering about too, so that can lead to some great things for me.

 

[Qwins]

Although you can punish rolls with a hard enough read and good timing, there isn't much of a reward for doing so.
You may get one or two hits in but you are better off rolling around like a moron too until they have to approach you.
My hype for this game is slowly dwindling due to the sheer lack of skill it takes to avoid being hit.

 

[Shmoe93]

Online lag is the problem.

 

[Regi_King]

A good grab read tends to put them out of sync, I see myself pulling this most of the time. Any grounded tilts or other things seem harder to pull of, I just hope with the Wii U version and the GC controller, it will become easier to punish rolls.

 

[SmashBear]

Yea rolling can be annoying at times its hard to punish the roll unless they roll right near you.It can also be annoying ESPECIALLY with a lot of online lag.Although rolling can be useful for that gtfo moment I've seen some online players just roll the entire match and to stall and it gets pretty annoying.

 

[Quillion]

For one, it makes dealing with projectiles harder. Rolling in of itself has been a poor option up until now, and it's still not that great. We don't need it weakened again. It's just not necessary.

But rolling has been buffed to the point of an annoyance.

You and others are misunderstanding here. It's not that it's unpunishable, it's just incredibly annoying to have to deal with. We shouldn't have to work hard at punishing someone who is overreliant on a defensive option. They need to have mechanics that force you to mix it up.

Also, do you not know how to air dodge? That already renders projectiles (other than 's blaster) useless.

 

[LancerStaff]

But rolling has been buffed to the point of an annoyance.

You and others are misunderstanding here. It's not that it's unpunishable, it's just incredibly annoying to have to deal with. We shouldn't have to work hard at punishing someone who is overreliant on a defensive option. They need to have mechanics that force you to mix it up.

Also, do you not know how to air dodge? That already renders projectiles (other than 's blaster) useless.

Air dodge has tons of landing lag now. It's useless against most projectiles in my experience.