Does rolling kill the fun?

[Rᴏb]

@ LancerStaff Of course Fox is used more than MK, Brawl is dead.
But if you're comparing the ratio of MK's usage vs the rest of Brawl's cast to Fox's usage vs the rest of Melee's cast, you're wrong. MK has more usage than the other characters in Brawl by a wider margin (2.1x more likely than the second most used char with subsequent ~.4 increases going down the rest of the cast.) than Fox's usage compared to the other characters in Melee (1.3x more likely than the second most used char with subsequent ~.2 increases going down the rest of the cast.) PM is the best in this aspect though <3 (with the exception of 3DS who doesn't have a developed enough metagame to pass the same judgement about).


Also the amount of roll apologists is kinda funny. Rolling is undeniably safer than ever in this game, at least for most characters it is. It's still beaten the same way though, albeit with much stricter timing due to the various differences in gameplay Smash 4 has compared to the other games. Does it kill the fun? Yeah, kinda.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time. While I disagree with the OP, I find it very interesting to see how other smashers approach game balance and mindset. Plus, when something is pissing you off it can make you feel better to know you're not alone.

What isn't a waste of time? To discuss ways in which to counter it or to complain about it?

 

[Darkzephr]

What isn't a waste of time? To discuss ways in which to counter it or to complain about it?

Complaining about it.

 

[Rᴏb]

What isn't a waste of time? To discuss ways in which to counter it or to complain about it?

I'm gonna go with the latter. We've known how to counter rolls since 64, it's just harder to do now. We might as well talk about who we think will win the 2000 US presidential election. ..But neither of those things are what this thread is about.

The whole point of this thread seems to be about rolling complaints so I'd say the people in this thread are just fulfilling it's purpose.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Complaining about it.

Well we have an inherent disagreement.

Personally I find that one viewpoint positively affects a players gradual rise to the top, and the other just keeps you stuck in average purgatory.

I'm gonna go with the latter. We've known how to counter rolls since 64, it's just harder to do now. We might as well talk about who we think will win the 2000 US presidential election. ..But neither of those things are what this thread is about.

The whole point of this thread seems to be about rolling complaints so I'd say the people in this thread are just fulfilling it's purpose.

Whether they are on-topic or not is absolutely irrelevant. I'm talking about whether it's truly meaningful. It seems pedantic to simply mention that they are on topic.

 

[Rᴏb]

Whether they are on-topic or not is absolutely irrelevant. I'm talking about whether it's truly meaningful. It seems pedantic to simply mention that they are on topic.

Then you're asking something that doesn't have an answer.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Then you're asking something that doesn't have an answer.

It does have an answer, the question is rhetorical.

 

[Rᴏb]

It does have an answer, the question is rhetorical.

Rhetorical questions don't necessarily have answers, if that's what you're getting at. Regardless, my point was "true meaning" (whatever that is) is not something you can really criticize an answer for lacking due to how subjective the question was. To me, fulfilling a purpose could easily be considered truly meaningful.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Rhetorical questions don't necessarily have answers, if that's what you're getting at. Regardless, my point was "true meaning" (whatever that is) is not something you can really criticize an answer for lacking due to how subjective the question was. To me, fulfilling a purpose could easily be considered truly meaningful.

Now you're just not making sense.

A rhetorical question does have an answer. That's the point of a rhetorical question, to allow the person being asked to figure the answer out for themselves because it should already be obvious.

The answer is that it isn't meaningful. There is no purpose that complaining fulfills except to agitate everyone else around you.

 

[Rᴏb]

Now you're just not making sense.

A rhetorical question does have an answer. That's the point of a rhetorical question, to allow the person being asked to figure the answer out for themselves because it should already be obvious.

The answer is that it isn't meaningful. There is no purpose that complaining fulfills except to agitate everyone else around you.

Nah you're wrong dude. Rhetorical questions are figures of speech used to make points, rather than elicit answers. That means they don't necessarily have answers. Asking if something is meaningful is the perfect example of a rhetorical question that doesn't have a clear-cut answer, due to it being so subjective.
If you feel that way about complaining then I suggest you leave the thread and spare yourself the anguish.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Nah you're wrong dude. Rhetorical questions are figures of speech used to make points, rather than elicit answers. That means they don't necessarily have answers. Asking if something is meaningful is the perfect example of a rhetorical question that doesn't have a clear-cut answer, due to it being so subjective.
If you feel that way about complaining then I suggest you leave the thread and spare yourself the anguish.

No, it's not wrong, but your googlepedia is showing. Rhetorical questions can have answers, they just don't desire the answer to be given when used. You're right, they aren't meant to elicit an answer, but I didn't say they were. I said they have answers.

In any case, now you're trying to argue over fundamental vocabulary when it's absolutely irrelevant to anything which is a testament to your lack of focus. The point is that complaining about something especially when it's not even proven to be what is being complained about is hardly productive compared to taking the time to improve around it.

 

[LancerStaff]

So what are you arguing? How is it the games fault people pick fox? Especially if he's extremely hard to use over other characters. Also of course he's factually used more than meta knight is, the games been out for nearly 8 years longer than brawl

@ LancerStaff Of course Fox is used more than MK, Brawl is dead.
But if you're comparing the ratio of MK's usage vs the rest of Brawl's cast to Fox's usage vs the rest of Melee's cast, you're wrong. MK has more usage than the other characters in Brawl by a wider margin (2.1x more likely than the second most used char with subsequent ~.4 increases going down the rest of the cast.) than Fox's usage compared to the other characters in Melee (1.3x more likely than the second most used char with subsequent ~.2 increases going down the rest of the cast.) PM is the best in this aspect though <3 (with the exception of 3DS who doesn't have a developed enough metagame to pass the same judgement about).


Also the amount of roll apologists is kinda funny. Rolling is undeniably safer than ever in this game, at least for most characters it is. It's still beaten the same way though, albeit with much stricter timing due to the various differences in gameplay Smash 4 has compared to the other games. Does it kill the fun? Yeah, kinda.

Melee is just as borked as Brawl. And of course it is. People pick Fox because he's the best. And he's used more then MK is, percent wise. More people played Fox in Melee's lifetime then MK in Brawl's, even when compared as a percent. I don't know why, but something about Melee caused it.

Look, I'll find the data on a somewhat less busy day then a major holiday, alright?

It's slightly harder then before, and yet we have the same amount of people complaining. Really, I'll take rolls that are actually useful over the bad ones if it only causes a minor problem.

Nah you're wrong dude. Rhetorical questions are figures of speech used to make points, rather than elicit answers. That means they don't necessarily have answers. Asking if something is meaningful is the perfect example of a rhetorical question that doesn't have a clear-cut answer, due to it being so subjective.
If you feel that way about complaining then I suggest you leave the thread and spare yourself the anguish.

The complaining spreads to any other thread dealing with the metagame. We'll have to deal with it with or without this topic.

 

[Quillion]

Melee is just as borked as Brawl. And of course it is. People pick Fox because he's the best. And he's used more then MK is, percent wise. More people played Fox in Melee's lifetime then MK in Brawl's, even when compared as a percent. I don't know why, but something about Melee caused it.

Look, I'll find the data on a somewhat less busy day then a major holiday, alright?

It's slightly harder then before, and yet we have the same amount of people complaining. Really, I'll take rolls that are actually useful over the bad ones if it only causes a minor problem.



The complaining spreads to any other thread dealing with the metagame. We'll have to deal with it with or without this topic.

Thing is, is at least beatable. His fast fallspeed is a blessing and a curse, as he can survive Star/Screen KOs very well, but is highly susceptible to juggle combos.

is completely unbeatable. He's got absolutely no significant disadvantages.

Like it or not, Melee is a lot, A LOT, less centralized than the one-character Brawl. And the only reason why MK was brought back after being banned was that he's the only character who's fun to play as in tournaments.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

So to summarize what @Zipzo is getting at hes basically saying is a person who complains is fine but a person who complains but dose not do anything about it is just asking for sympathy. And boy was comming to the internet the wrong place for it.

-A man who who gets stoped by a hill or gap was never really going to get to his destination-
Xavier Fulfit

 

[Rᴏb]

No, it's not wrong, but your googlepedia is showing. Rhetorical questions can have answers, they just don't desire the answer to be given when used. You're right, they aren't meant to elicit an answer, but I didn't say they were. I said they have answers.

In any case, now you're trying to argue over fundamental vocabulary when it's absolutely irrelevant to anything which is a testament to your lack of focus. The point is that complaining about something especially when it's not even proven to be what is being complained about is hardly productive compared to taking the time to improve around it.

Lol I can't take this seriously. You don't need to be rude man. I guess I'll try to explain this one more time to you:

Rhetorical questions don't necessarily always have answers. Answers aren't necessary for rhetorical questions in that they aren't the purpose of the questions and because there simply isn't an answer sometimes. "What is the meaning of life?" Is and example of this. The question you presented is also an example of this because of it's subjective nature, which is why I disagree with you when you say complaining in this thread isn't "truly meaningful". That's all there is to it, if you still choose to disagree then I shoot me a PM so we stop cluttering this thread.

And he's used more then MK is, percent wise. More people played Fox in Melee's lifetime then MK in Brawl's, even when compared as a percent. I don't know why, but something about Melee caused it.

Look, I'll find the data on a somewhat less busy day then a major holiday, alright?

It's like you completely ignored my post.

 

[Darkzephr]

Is it just me, or is it a little philosophy up in here?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Is it just me, or is it a little philosophy up in here?

you know bro? i think i should welcome you to the boards. not to mention you plesantly friendly you and me are cool bruh.

 

[Azaris]

It's more that sometimes you have no choice but to roll...

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Lol I can't take this seriously. You don't need to be rude man. I guess I'll try to explain this one more time to you:

Rhetorical questions don't necessarily always have answers. Answers aren't necessary for rhetorical questions in that they aren't the purpose of the questions and because there simply isn't an answer sometimes. "What is the meaning of life?" Is and example of this. The question you presented is also an example of this because of it's subjective nature, which is why I disagree with you when you say complaining in this thread isn't "truly meaningful". That's all there is to it, if you still choose to disagree then I shoot me a PM so we stop cluttering this thread.
It's like you completely ignored my post.

If you dislike thread clutter, I recommend not utterly deviating from the topic to prove a point on some irrelevant issue you have with vocabulary, especially if you're inaccurate.

I disagree that it's subjective but you're free to believe what you want. You can believe in unicorns if it makes you happy.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Regardless of whether or not rolling is OP (it's probably not) and whether it hurts some characters more than others (it does, as anybody who plays characters that can't camp knows) it's a bad idea for one single defensive option to be so powerful in this game.

You know why Brawl's competitive scene died? It wasn't just MK. It wasn't just chaingrabbing. It wasn't just planking...actually, that last bit is misleading. Planking was the perfect example of why the Brawl scene died. And you know why that is? It was ****ing slow. It was defensive, campy, and any match that didn't have MK in it (and a bunch of those that did) took for-****ing-ever.

Slow games are anti-hype, and hype is what a fighting game's competitive scene thrives on. Actually, I'm gonna be frank. If Smash 4 continues on the path it appears to be going on, it's going to end up just like Brawl with the exception of matches involving characters like Shiek and Sonic.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Regardless of whether or not rolling is OP (it's probably not) and whether it hurts some characters more than others (it does, as anybody who plays characters that can't camp knows) it's a bad idea for one single defensive option to be so powerful in this game.

You know why Brawl's competitive scene died? It wasn't just MK. It wasn't just chaingrabbing. It wasn't just planking...actually, that last bit is misleading. Planking was the perfect example of why the Brawl scene died. And you know why that is? It was ****ing slow. It was defensive, campy, and any match that didn't have MK in it (and a bunch of those that did) took for-****ing-ever.

Slow games are anti-hype, and hype is what a fighting game's competitive scene thrives on. Actually, I'm gonna be frank. If Smash 4 continues on the path it appears to be going on, it's going to end up just like Brawl with the exception of matches involving characters like Shiek and Sonic.

dunno bro but every tournament iv watched so far of smash 4 is pretty hype just saying. all the reads are awesome. lol gdorf can't camp but he deals with rolls pretty darn well with down b just saying. I think your frankness is pretty off.
Also any characters specifically that rolling hurts. Cuz dk and bowser eat rolling 2. and everyone else has serious speed.

 

[Darkzephr]

Regardless of whether or not rolling is OP (it's probably not) and whether it hurts some characters more than others (it does, as anybody who plays characters that can't camp knows) it's a bad idea for one single defensive option to be so powerful in this game.

You know why Brawl's competitive scene died? It wasn't just MK. It wasn't just chaingrabbing. It wasn't just planking...actually, that last bit is misleading. Planking was the perfect example of why the Brawl scene died. And you know why that is? It was ****ing slow. It was defensive, campy, and any match that didn't have MK in it (and a bunch of those that did) took for-****ing-ever.

Slow games are anti-hype, and hype is what a fighting game's competitive scene thrives on. Actually, I'm gonna be frank. If Smash 4 continues on the path it appears to be going on, it's going to end up just like Brawl with the exception of matches involving characters like Shiek and Sonic.

Chess games, Golf, and Poker are all slow games that get huge amounts of hype from people. (not me specifically, but they totally have an audience). Hell, Football and soccer are both reasonably slow, and there's no way to top the hype for those games (especially soccer).

From the sounds of it, the reason Brawl's competitive scene struggled was not just the change in speed (I will totally accept the transition from Melee to brawl probably killed a lot of the interest), but also due to specific design choices that made skill development less valuable - basically, if you put the same amount of practice into Melee and Brawl, you would see a much greater effect in Melee.(This is not based on experience, I could totally be wrong about this.)

This game hasn't been out for very long, so its tough to judge whether a competitive scene with thrive, but I only just got into smash and I feel like the effects of my practice are paying off. I show my significant other replays, and they enjoy them. I actually watch streams and tournaments and enjoy them. The speed of this game is very nice for me (someone who is relatively new to smash), because as an inexperienced player I can actually follow the fights, while still appreciating the amazing displays of skill.

After learning more about the game, some of the Melee tournament replays are really exciting, but they are cool because they feel like I'm watching the good parts of Dragon Ball Z. If a competitive scene is going to thrive, the casual observer has to be able to identify impressive plays, and this game hit's a pretty good mark with its speed for that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Thing is, is at least beatable. His fast fallspeed is a blessing and a curse, as he can survive Star/Screen KOs very well, but is highly susceptible to juggle combos.

is completely unbeatable. He's got absolutely no significant disadvantages.

Like it or not, Melee is a lot, A LOT, less centralized than the one-character Brawl. And the only reason why MK was brought back after being banned was that he's the only character who's fun to play as in tournaments.

MK wasn't brought back because he made the game fun, quite the contrary. He was brought back because APEX said so when 80% of the community wanted him banned.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

When it's a Lucario rolling to the edge of the stage to charge his aurasphere (rolls faster than characters like Zelda or Robin), yes it's killing the fun.

I encounter too many Lucarios like this... 4 minutes 30 of spamming Reflect with Palutena is not fun. The worst part about this is that I win thanks to reflect.

 

[Hayzie]

I saved two replays yesterday of people who rolled because I dominated their predictable stupidity.

Sonic would keep running to grab me, then roll away, run + grab, rinse & repeat.... and kept missing. I showed him by grabbing him consecutively and tossing him. Two times he couldn't recover and I didn't even need to try to gimp.

The other was Zerosuit Samus doing the predictable spam gun tazer, run+kick or grab. She kept rolling away far enough away from me to do the same. Well just like Sonic, I showed her. It was quite hilarious because I fibbled and lost a stock by SD. She crouched down a few times to teabag, but with a few flashy moves in a mere seconds after I spawned I gimped her into her own SD

I need to upload these.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Not sure what Third Strike you played, my friend, but camping in Third Strike is not a viable option. Defense in Third Strike is like playing Bowser in Melee. Not viable if the person you're playing has any kind of competitive skill. And Parrying isn't solely a defensive mechanic. It does both. Parrying destroys zoning, if you can play defensive in Third Strike, congratulations. You have the best Remy in the world.



I don't think it's game breaking at this point, it just annoys me.

Yo third strike is the ****. parry Karakusa all day.

But yeah, Parrying does satisfy offensive and defensive criteria, but I think that you knows what he means. I mean, in theory, nothing is safe on block in thirds strike except for grabs, and even some command grabs (like Karakusa) can be teched. So I guess you can say the best offense in the game would go to who..Alex? But that's a different story.

I see some similarities in Smash 4 since I basically use power shielding as a pseudo parry on the ground, so I guess that lends it self some offensive capability. What I really wished to see would be something like shield diminish on power shield, because some players tend to power shield and not release the shield for punish. I'm not sure if it's a reaction based issue, or if you aren't confident in a punish, but having the shield actively diminish even during power shield frames will not only allow people to apply pressure, but will do so with the idea in mind that your opponent can't eventually retaliate against your shield unless you are blocking attacks precisely. You can't simply opt out to do damage just by walking in and power shield to grab, even though you aren't taking shield damage, you have to take some risk since that shield is reducing by each fraction of time you're holding it. You could conclude that this favors those of us with quicker reflexes, but since the power shield window in this game is so big, players can steadily grasp the concept at their own pace.

Offense and Defensive balance.

Now, if rolling wasn't some aggravating maybe the defensive system would be more balance since the opponent would have to learn proximal and stationary defensive tactics. Persons 4 arena tried this by only have tech wake ups keep you in a neutral position with active block stun so you had to understand your high and low mix ups and more importantly, know how to use your command dash from a pressure situation, making it viable, but also punishable. Now that I think about it, Persona 4 has some fairly well executed smash similarities.

I don't get how Sakurai's term couldn't oversee the problem with having spammable invincibility frames, but sees issues with repeated stage grabbing and grabs in general. Unless he just picked the obvious issues and just copped out the process. I dunno...

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yo third strike is the ****. parry Karakusa all day.

But yeah, Parrying does satisfy offensive and defensive criteria, but I think that you knows what he means. I mean, in theory, nothing is safe on block in thirds strike except for grabs, and even some command grabs (like Karakusa) can be teched. So I guess you can say the best offense in the game would go to who..Alex? But that's a different story.

I see some similarities in Smash 4 since I basically use power shielding as a pseudo parry on the ground, so I guess that lends it self some offensive capability. What I really wished to see would be something like shield diminish on power shield, because some players tend to power shield and not release the shield for punish. I'm not sure if it's a reaction based issue, or if you aren't confident in a punish, but having the shield actively diminish even during power shield frames will not only allow people to apply pressure, but will do so with the idea in mind that your opponent can't eventually retaliate against your shield unless you are blocking attacks precisely. You can't simply opt out to do damage just by walking in and power shield to grab, even though you aren't taking shield damage, you have to take some risk since that shield is reducing by each fraction of time you're holding it. You could conclude that this favors those of us with quicker reflexes, but since the power shield window in this game is so big, players can steadily grasp the concept at their own pace.

Offense and Defensive balance.

Now, if rolling wasn't some aggravating maybe the defensive system would be more balance since the opponent would have to learn proximal and stationary defensive tactics. Persons 4 arena tried this by only have tech wake ups keep you in a neutral position with active block stun so you had to understand your high and low mix ups and more importantly, know how to use your command dash from a pressure situation, making it viable, but also punishable. Now that I think about it, Persona 4 has some fairly well executed smash similarities.

I don't get how Sakurai's term couldn't oversee the problem with having spammable invincibility frames, but sees issues with repeated stage grabbing and grabs in general. Unless he just picked the obvious issues and just copped out the process. I dunno...

understandable statement but probably the best way to fix the not op rolling is the slower the roll tbe more invinciblity frames so characters like ganon and samus are not left with garbage rools and more quick rolls have more strict and punishable frames that way the characters that really need the roll (most heavys and certain others) can still have some safty while approaching while other need to be more precatious (little man and such) but im pretty okay with the way ot is now. and don't really see rolls being patched. im sure once wiiu comes out people will be punishing these rolls no problem

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't get how Sakurai's term couldn't oversee the problem with having spammable invincibility frames, but sees issues with repeated stage grabbing and grabs in general. Unless he just picked the obvious issues and just copped out the process. I dunno...

Could just be that the problem don't exist. Do you see tournament players ever spam rolls? No. It's not OP. It's horribly predictable and you will lose because of it unless the other player is a sap.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Could just be that the problem don't exist. Do you see tournament players ever spam rolls? No. It's not OP. It's horribly predictable and you will lose because of it unless the other player is a sap.

Tournament players also don't only play on FD and don't have sudden death decide the winner, so stalling isn't that encouraged.

 

[LancerStaff]

Tournament players also don't only play on FD and don't have sudden death decide the winner, so stalling isn't that encouraged.

Nah. Rolling is still just as "invincible" and FD still gets picked. Sudden Death is still just as broken as before, but the final moments with or without it will come down to somebody playing defensively. You won't see more then two rolls in a row, if at all.

 

[PedroSmashFan2014]

I think they're by far the most annoying part of smash 4.

You're forgetting that not every character is Captain Falcon when it comes to dash grabbing. There are definitely characters who can punish rolling. Also there's characters like Shulk whose attacks last too long and reach too far for roll spamming to be very effective, like his down smash. But a lot of characters can't do anything vs. rolling.

It should have a delay, and it was poorly implemented as is. I'm not sure if you're defending it as something good or what. The way roll was implemented is just bad IMO.

I agree with you both, against certain characters, like Rosalina and Captain Falcon, it´s very hard to punish their rolls

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Nah. Rolling is still just as "invincible" and FD still gets picked. Sudden Death is still just as broken as before, but the final moments with or without it will come down to somebody playing defensively. You won't see more then two rolls in a row, if at all.

It's true but FD isn't an exclusive stage meaning counter picks are possible, so rolling is still as op as always, but having to constantly change your altitude on stages like BF or prism tower doesn't do much for rolling and makes air dodging more dangerous because of the landing lag on the platforms.

I don't really know where you stand on competitive play, you say that since competitive players don't complain about rolling there's no possible way there could be a problem with it, but then you openly disagree with the possibility of FG having any other stage than FD, even though tournaments don't only use FD and most competitive players disagree with Nintendo's poorly made decision to do so

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It's true but FD isn't an exclusive stage meaning counter picks are possible, so rolling is still as op as always, but having to constantly change your altitude on stages like BF or prism tower doesn't do much for rolling and makes air dodging more dangerous because of the landing lag on the platforms.

I don't really know where you stand on competitive play, you say that since competitive players don't complain about rolling there's no possible way there could be a problem with it, but then you openly disagree with the possibility of FG having any other stage than FD, even though tournaments don't only use FD and most competitive players disagree with Nintendo's poorly made decision to do so

most competitive players hate like all the other levels but like battle field and once again rolling being op is opinonated. im sorry but untill i see rolling left and right im competive play i don't think its op since its obviouly not as supreamly solid as you make it to be.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

most competitive players hate like all the other levels but like battle field and once again rolling being op is opinonated. im sorry but untill i see rolling left and right im competive play i don't think its op since its obviouly not as supreamly solid as you make it to be.

Sure, I was never trying to pass anything off as being fact, so wether or not you agree with me is your problem. The main point is if it's fun to play against, I say no because no matter what side you belong to it's still not fun, if you're good at punishing it there's no fun to be had because your opponent isn't good enough to try a different approach, and if you're not so good at punishing it's not fun because they're basically wasting time by having you play tag in hopes of time running out.

But like I've said the wii u version could fix this with better controls and better setups with new techniques, so we'll see

 

[victinivcreate1]

I love how the last few pages have become a Melee vs. Brawl debate because of a select few people.

Comments in this thread really should have been like

"Rolls are dumb in this game, but I'll get better and I'll learn to punish better"
Doesn't rustle any jimmies.

 

[XDaDePsak]

I think you mean irk.

Woah... this just in

 

[Mataata]

... Iiiignoring the discussion on the last few pages, rolling is simply a mechanic. They've gotta stop sometime and eventually attack you if they want to win. The best way to deal with rollers is to either wait them out or learn their roll distance and timing and smack them hard with a charged attack.

I have never lost to someone simply because they rolled a lot.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

... Iiiignoring the discussion on the last few pages, rolling is simply a mechanic. They've gotta stop sometime and eventually attack you if they want to win. The best way to deal with rollers is to either wait them out or learn their roll distance and timing and smack them hard with a charged attack.

I have never lost to someone simply because they rolled a lot.

Rolling is a great stalling mechanic in FG though 5 minutes is too short of a time to deal with someone like that

 

[Los4Muros]

I find rolling kind of necessary with some characters. Link is a very slow character like to be making him run from one part of the stage to the other. Luckily, I don't consider that I spam with the rolls. Just use them for necessary spacing and dodging. And in no way do I consider the rolls a problem. Predicting is an important factor of the game. There's attacks to help you out with rolling such as D Smash with most characters, Spin attack with Link and grabs if you're quick enough.

 

[BobVance_]

Yes it does, and to the people who say its easy to punish; well that's only if your opponent is rolling in obvious patterns..Try punishing someone who has no patterns. It's not so easy.

Rolling and shielding make 2 stock best of 3 matches go for like a straight 18 minutes minimum. It's horrendous.