Does rolling kill the fun?

[LancerStaff]

Rolling is a great stalling mechanic in FG though 5 minutes is too short of a time to deal with someone like that

One would imagine a Pit main would be good at punishing rolls between the arrows, fast dash attack, long-lasting and auto-canceling nair (don't FF, hitbox lasts until you hit the ground anyway), long-lasting Upperdash Arm, effective jab and infinite jab, and general long reach, but I guess that's not the case.

Falcon can't be that bad at it either.

Yes it does, and to the people who say its easy to punish; well that's only if your opponent is rolling in obvious patterns..Try punishing someone who has no patterns. It's not so easy.

Rolling and shielding make 2 stock best of 3 matches go for like a straight 18 minutes minimum. It's horrendous.

You have any kind of proof that smart rolling makes matches last that long?

 

[BobVance_]

One would imagine a Pit main would be good at punishing rolls between the arrows, fast dash attack, long-lasting and auto-canceling nair (don't FF, hitbox lasts until you hit the ground anyway), long-lasting Upperdash Arm, effective jab and infinite jab, and general long reach, but I guess that's not the case.

Falcon can't be that bad at it either.



You have any kind of proof that smart rolling makes matches last that long?

Proof? Do you play For Glory? Have you watched the tourney twitch streams on New Meta or VGCamp? Have you checked out 1fow1's GOOD matches? When he plays competent players, the matches go for a long 'friggin time. Streams are so boring that the commentators talk about random goofy stuff to eat up time.

 

[LancerStaff]

Proof? Do you play For Glory? Have you watched the tourney twitch streams on New Meta or VGCamp? Have you checked out 1fow1's GOOD matches? When he plays competent players, the matches go for a long 'friggin time. Streams are so boring that the commentators talk about random goofy stuff to eat up time.

I play tons of Glory, and any player that's better then me just about refuses to roll. I roll alot in comparison, and it typically bites me in the rear. Never heard of 1fow1, but I suppose I'll look him up later. Who does he use anyway?

 

[XxBHunterxX]

One would imagine a Pit main would be good at punishing rolls between the arrows, fast dash attack, long-lasting and auto-canceling nair (don't FF, hitbox lasts until you hit the ground anyway), long-lasting Upperdash Arm, effective jab and infinite jab, and general long reach, but I guess that's not the case.

Falcon can't be that bad at it either.



You have any kind of proof that smart rolling makes matches last that long?

I suppose, but do you have any proof for this? Listen I know how to deal with rolling but just because I know how to deal with it doesn't make it less of a design flaw

 

[Zionaze]

i h8 on invisible rollz

 

[WyvernLord]

Rolling only kills the fun when your opponent does nothing but roll and spam projectiles at you *CoughCough*

 

[LancerStaff]

I suppose, but do you have any proof for this? Listen I know how to deal with rolling but just because I know how to deal with it doesn't make it less of a design flaw

Proof for what, that Pit has every tool for punishing rolls and more? That's just common sense.

People have been complaining about rolls since the very beginning. If a Donkey Kong player can effectively punish rolls, anybody can. It's not that hard, and it's simply being overblown. Roll spam won't win a thing and it isn't remotely hard to deal with. People who have trouble with rolls rather clearly need to improve, end of story.

 

[Hayzie]

I think rolling will be a treat on Wii U due to the 60ps 1080p eye-candy. I'm feelin' it.

 

[Kinslayer]

Proof for what, that Pit has every tool for punishing rolls and more? That's just common sense.

People have been complaining about rolls since the very beginning. If a Donkey Kong player can effectively punish rolls, anybody can. It's not that hard, and it's simply being overblown. Roll spam won't win a thing and it isn't remotely hard to deal with. People who have trouble with rolls rather clearly need to improve, end of story.

Kind of a silly comment considering donkey kong can effectively punish rolls because he Has ground pound and down smash both of which, hit on both sides of him at the same time. It's not as simple for someone playing a character who has to read the side and the rolls well. My main is Marth and for characters like sonic it's kind of hard consistently punishing them over and over because of the speed, range, and of course online bs. With a character like dk, Luke, rosa luma, etc it isn't hard at all because again you hit both sides of you at the same time.

I do think roll recovery frames are a little to short for an invincible movement option.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Proof for what, that Pit has every tool for punishing rolls and more? That's just common sense.

People have been complaining about rolls since the very beginning. If a Donkey Kong player can effectively punish rolls, anybody can. It's not that hard, and it's simply being overblown. Roll spam won't win a thing and it isn't remotely hard to deal with. People who have trouble with rolls rather clearly need to improve, end of story.

Why? Rolling has never been a problem in past games so why do you think people are complaining now? Air dodging in brawl was a thing people hated not only because of the wave dashing being taken out, it was a very low effort means of avoiding damage, sure you could punish someone mindlessly using it but adapting to something badly designed doesn't automatically make it better. Donkey kong breaks shields so it's easier for him to bait out a roll and he's fairly fast so for his size

Also say what you will about wether or not I need to improve because that's not really important, I've already stressed how the combination of rulesets that FG enforces are a direct result of why rolling is such a popular thing online, a linear stage like FD and a time limit of only 5 minutes have gotten me the most SD's I've ever had in a smash game yet.

 

[Kinslayer]

Why? Rolling has never been a problem in past games so why do you think people are complaining now? Air dodging in brawl was a thing people hated not only because of the wave dashing being taken out, it was a very low effort means of avoiding damage, sure you could punish someone mindlessly using it but adapting to something badly designed doesn't automatically make it better.

Also say what you will about wether or not I need to improve because that's not really important because I've already stressed how the combination of rulesets that FG enforces are a direct result of why rolling is such a popular thing online, a linear stage like FD and a time limit of only 5 minutes have gotten me the most SD's I've ever had in a smash game yet.

How does any of this contribute to SD's?

 

[XxBHunterxX]

How does any of this contribute to SD's?

Sudden death, forgot about self destruct sharing an acronym. For me people tend to roll away burning time while you're trying to adapt to their rolling habits

 

[LancerStaff]

Why? Rolling has never been a problem in past games so why do you think people are complaining now? Air dodging in brawl was a thing people hated not only because of the wave dashing being taken out, it was a very low effort means of avoiding damage, sure you could punish someone mindlessly using it but adapting to something badly designed doesn't automatically make it better. Donkey kong breaks shields so it's easier for him to bait out a roll and he's fairly fast so for his size

Also say what you will about wether or not I need to improve because that's not really important, I've already stressed how the combination of rulesets that FG enforces are a direct result of why rolling is such a popular thing online, a linear stage like FD and a time limit of only 5 minutes have gotten me the most SD's I've ever had in a smash game yet.

Complaining about rolls in Brawl: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/928518-super-smash-bros-brawl/42264308

Took ten seconds to find. People have been complaining about them for forever, like I said.

Then who can't punish rolls?

I've had five Sudden Deaths in 1000 Glory matches, most caused by me. I've stalled for SDs because I was losing. I get KOed for rolling most times too, and it isn't for spam. Rolls are still quite easy to deal with, no amount of complaining will change that absolute fact.

 

[Kinslayer]

Complaining about rolls in Brawl: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/928518-super-smash-bros-brawl/42264308

Took ten seconds to find. People have been complaining about them for forever, like I said.

Then who can't punish rolls?

I've had five Sudden Deaths in 1000 Glory matches, most caused by me. I've stalled for SDs because I was losing. I get KOed for rolling most times too, and it isn't for spam. Rolls are still quite easy to deal with, no amount of complaining will change that absolute fact.

I must agree, I've only had 1 sudden death and im 1,000 games.

However, I do disagree that they are quite easy to deal with and at certain times are annoying and can be problematic. Characters like rosa whose rolls are hard to track or sonic whose roll is quick and has awesome recovery are pretty annoying to deal with.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Sudden death, my bad

Complaining about rolls in Brawl: http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/928518-super-smash-bros-brawl/42264308

Took ten seconds to find. People have been complaining about them for forever, like I said.

Then who can't punish rolls?

I've had five Sudden Deaths in 1000 Glory matches, most caused by me. I've stalled for SDs because I was losing. I get KOed for rolling most times too, and it isn't for spam. Rolls are still quite easy to deal with, no amount of complaining will change that absolute fact.

You know that you only found a thread for brawl because we all know that game is the most polished in the franchise right? There are multiple things wrong with that game so I'm actually not surprised rolling was an issue and considering smash 4 shares a lot of mechanics with brawl

how is that an absolute fact? We wouldn't be having this conversation it were, the fact that this thread exists debunks your so called fact, but believe what you wish, no ones saying it's impossible to punish, you admitted yourself you have been caught rolling too much, the roll must be good enough for you develop a bad habit like that in a match. Smash 64, melee, project m all have rolling mechanics that get the job done but even at a casual level aren't they abused like they are in smash 4 because they all have noticeable ending lag on them making it easier to punish them if you've read correctly, smash 4's window to attack a roll is very small making it harder to attack unless you're reads are pin point

 

[Wobblerbox]

yes rolling is way to strong in this game and it should be nerfed

 

[AngeloHollow]

I must agree, I've only had 1 sudden death and im 1,000 games.

However, I do disagree that they are quite easy to deal with and at certain times are annoying and can be problematic. Characters like rosa whose rolls are hard to track or sonic whose roll is quick and has awesome recovery are pretty annoying to deal with.

I agree with you. Rolling is a nuisance at best, but it is not overpowered like many will believe, and if they watched tournament players, they will see that the players hardly ever dodge unless they really need to. Dodges like Rosalina's is particularly obnoxious because it has very little wait time for dodging repeatedly, and because there's almost no way to track which way she will dodge without tracking her via touching her icon the touch screen.

 

[LancerStaff]

You know that you only found a thread for brawl because we all know that game is the most polished in the franchise right? There are multiple things wrong with that game so I'm actually not surprised rolling was an issue and considering smash 4 shares a lot of mechanics with brawl

how is that an absolute fact? We wouldn't be having this conversation it were, the fact that this thread exists debunks your so called fact, but believe what you wish, no ones saying it's impossible to punish, you admitted yourself you have been caught rolling too much, the roll must be good enough for you develop a bad habit like that in a match. Smash 64, melee, project m all have rolling mechanics that get the job done but even at a casual level aren't they abused like they are in smash 4 because they all have noticeable ending lag on them making it easier to punish them if you've read correctly, smash 4's window to attack a roll is very small making it harder to attack unless you're reads are pin point

I only found a thread for Brawl over because GFAQS's forums didn't save topics until long after Melee. Noobs will complain about anything, even basic stuff like grabs or gimps. This isn't different at all. Are grabs overpowered? No. It's an absolute fact, even though a couple people complain.

Rolling is good enough to deal with CPUs for years, yes. Not that anybody would be surprised, since they'll readily walk into jabs for no reason.

It's not hard. Anybody who does think it's hard needs practice, that is all.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I only found a thread for Brawl over because GFAQS's forums didn't save topics until long after Melee. Noobs will complain about anything, even basic stuff like grabs or gimps. This isn't different at all. Are grabs overpowered? No. It's an absolute fact, even though a couple people complain.

Rolling is good enough to deal with CPUs for years, yes. Not that anybody would be surprised, since they'll readily walk into jabs for no reason.

It's not hard. Anybody who does think it's hard needs practice, that is all.

Are you trying to fool yourself into thinking you're not a noob by attempting to ignore something with baseless facts? But again adapting to a bad mechanic doesn't make it better by proxy,

 

[FlareHabanero]

Anyone that says grabs weren't overpowered in Brawl are fooling themselves, and no it's not just Ice Climbers that are guilty of it. It's the reason why the grqb immunity was implimented this time around, to prevent a zero to death situation with chain grabs.

 

[LancerStaff]

Are you trying to fool yourself into thinking you're not a noob by attempting to ignore something with baseless facts? But again adapting to a bad mechanic doesn't make it better by proxy,

'Scuse? How can I both be a noob and adapt to a supposedly bad mecanic?

Anyone that says grabs weren't overpowered in Brawl are fooling themselves, and no it's not just Ice Climbers that are guilty of it. It's the reason why the grqb immunity was implimented this time around, to prevent a zero to death situation with chain grabs.

If you were talking to me, in that case it was about SSB4 and how grabs beat shields.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

'Scuse? How can I both be a noob and adapt to a supposedly bad mecanic?



If you were talking to me, in that case it was about SSB4 and how grabs beat shields.

Well I never called you a noob I was just pointing out how silly your qualifications for being a noob are, "if there is an obvious flaw in a game mechanic and you notice it you're a noob". Listen there is nothing I could say to convince you otherwise and vice versa, we've both played over a 1000 matches online and am pretty sure that our W/L ratios are heavily in our favor, so I guess it just comes down to our own experiences

 

[LancerStaff]

Well I never called you a noob I was just pointing out how silly your qualifications for being a noob are, "if there is an obvious flaw in a game mechanic and you notice it you're a noob". Listen there is nothing I could say to convince you otherwise and vice versa, we've both played over a 1000 matches online and am pretty sure that our W/L ratios are heavily in our favor, so I guess it just comes down to our own experiences

Oh, I know I'm not going to change your mind. But I know that you'll either learn or quit SSB4 altogether.

 

[Rubiks Dan]

1) Pick Shulk
2) Spam downsmash

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Oh, I know I'm not going to change your mind. But I know that you'll either learn or quit SSB4 altogether.

Or nintendo does to it what they did to air dodging

 

[LancerStaff]

Or nintendo does to it what they did to air dodging

Or they don't because people can still easily punish rolls.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Or they don't because people can still easily punish rolls.

Who knows what the new patch will fix considering replays won't work with it, so it might be the rolls other than that there's nothing to really fix

 

[LancerStaff]

Who knows what the new patch will fix considering replays won't work with it, so it might be the rolls other than that there's nothing to really fix

Rosalina and Bowser have confirmed changes, rolls do not.

 

[Lemon Girl]

I don't really understand what was Sakurai thinking with rolls in this game, it contradicts his vision of "making the game accesible for newer players", rolls are super easy to spam, and only good players are able to punish them. I don't get how he didn't see this as a problem for casuals, where they can just spam rolls and airdodges and avoid everything, they NEED a nerf, not to the point of being Melee bad, just less spammable. I think they will notice this and tweak them in future updates, just not now.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't really understand what was Sakurai thinking with rolls in this game, it contradicts his vision of "making the game accesible for newer players", rolls are super easy to spam, and only good players are able to punish them. I don't get how he didn't see this as a problem for casuals, where they can just spam rolls and airdodges and avoid everything, they NEED a nerf, not to the point of being Melee bad, just less spammable. I think they will notice this and tweak them in future updates, just not now.

I'd say it was less about making rolls easy to deal with, and more about making them easy to use. Most newer players have a tendency to roll over the other defensive options, so why not make it easier on them? I see the same idea with making grounded play more powerful also.

Since the average player will be playing FFA anyway, newer players typically don't have to deal with rolls by themselves.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

People that roll just for the sake of rolling are annoying. Like, fair enough if you're actually dodging moves, but rolling instead of running just to get you to the other end of the stage is just stupid.

Sometimes I actually stand still and just watch people roll and short hop all over the place even though I'm doing absolutely nothing and it just makes them look like try-hards. What's nice is that I beat mostly all of them, so just shows you don't need to rely on it.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I'd say it was less about making rolls easy to deal with, and more about making them easy to use. Most newer players have a tendency to roll over the other defensive options, so why not make it easier on them? I see the same idea with making grounded play more powerful also.

Since the average player will be playing FFA anyway, newer players typically don't have to deal with rolls by themselves.

Why do you make rolling sound like it was really difficult to use in the past games? If it's easier to use that only means it's more effective

 

[LancerStaff]

Why do you make rolling sound like it was really difficult to use in the past games? If it's easier to use that only means it's more effective

Because using it even once 99% of the time will get you hit, even against those barely getting out of noob status. Yes, it's more effective. That's a good thing, since it was basically not effective at all until now.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Because using it even once 99% of the time will get you hit, even against those barely getting out of noob status. Yes, it's more effective. That's a good thing, since it was basically not effective at all until now.

So you're telling me that me using a roll gets me hit more than not using it? When it clearly has less ending lag than just simply landing out of a jump? Sure.

I see you're really trying to dance around saying that rolling is really good in this game, the roll is better than it was in melee and PM but you punish them just as easily? Answer this, why do you believe that rolls needed to be improved in the first place?

 

[LancerStaff]

So you're telling me that me using a roll gets me hit more than not using it? When it clearly has less ending lag than just simply landing out of a jump? Sure.

I see you're really trying to dance around saying that rolling is really good in this game, the roll is better than it was in melee and PM but you punish them just as easily? Answer this, why do you believe that rolls needed to be improved in the first place?

A roll moves you to an exact spot, jumps do not.

Never said it was just as easy. It's still very easy to do, however. A SH Nair will get them in either game.

Balancing. Rolls might as well not existed until now. Balancing is the act of adjusting the entire game, not just leaving a few moves in the dust.

 

[AngeloHollow]

Rolls are nice for exact positioning, but shouldn't be used as a movement supplement, like lots of other players are using. Dodging is to avoid attacks without being predictable about it, but people who get dodge happy don't understand that dodging doesn't mean that they're safe from all forms of harm.

 

[Happy620]

I still need to brake the habit of rolling when there are many better options out there...

 

[XxBHunterxX]

A roll moves you to an exact spot, jumps do not.

Never said it was just as easy. It's still very easy to do, however. A SH Nair will get them in either game.

Balancing. Rolls might as well not existed until now. Balancing is the act of adjusting the entire game, not just leaving a few moves in the dust.

The reasons rolling was considered bad in melee wasn't because of it's intentional design though, when wave dashing and L canceling were introduced it by default made it a worse option in comparison. Now that those mechanics are gone increasing the rolls effectiveness seems counter productive, it's made more apparent when played on FD (which isn't the most balanced stage considering it's a counter-pick) due it's linear design

 

[LancerStaff]

The reasons rolling was considered bad in melee wasn't because of it's intentional design though, when wave dashing and L canceling were introduced it by default made it a worse option in comparison. Now that those mechanics are gone increasing the rolls effectiveness seems counter productive, it's made more apparent when played on FD (which isn't the most balanced stage considering it's a counter-pick) due it's linear design

Melee's overall balancing was as half-baked as Brawls, and it's only a shear coincidence that it's marginally more playable then Brawl. Rolls being useless even before what clearly wasn't taken into account for balancing is proof of this.

FD a counterpick? Uh, what crazy ruleset are you looking at? FD is more neutral then ever.

 

[xExcel]

I've stalled for SDs because I was losing.

Trash.