Does Counter-picking Characters Limit Longterm Skill?

[danieljosebatista]

The title pretty much sums it up. Does counter-picking characters for short-term wins in certain match-ups limit your overall growth as a player?

 

[Pengie]

I think it depends on your mindset going into it; if you switch of to Sheik against a CF because you feel that you can control space better as her and it fits how you would rather play the matchup then you can actually learn something about the character and it can then be applied to other characters in general. If you switch to Sheik against CF because lolsheiktechchasescfforfreealldai you'll probably focus too much on that one aspect of the matchup and it probably won't help you as a player or even in that one match because you are probably focusing on playing your opponent's character rather than your opponent.

 

[danieljosebatista]

But that's just the point. If I'm playing a captain falcon and I decide to switch to Sheik instead of stay as Marth which is my main, how can I learn to deal with captain falcon as marth? In the end the skills that Sheik requires to defeat captain falcon don't perfectly translate to marth. Even if I get a few wins against captain falcons at the lower level, won't this ultimately hurt me at the higher level when my Sheik just can't stack up to good falcons and my Marth never developed the skills to defeat him?

Edit: Btw, I'm a fan of that avatar man

 

[t3h Icy]

Mew 2King

 

[danieljosebatista]

I think M2K was better when he focused on Marth and didn't switch between 3 characters to cover all matchups. I feel like this is something that has hurt him over time.

 

[Mahone]

It depends... If you think its a really bad matchup like ics vs peach, then you probably arent hurting urself by playing a secondary... Sure u dont learn as much with ics, but secondaries can give you new ideas for ur main and also winning matches with secondaries allows you to move on and play better players with ur main

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Depends on your character honestly.

I mean if you play like... Zelda, no sense in forcing yourself to fight Sheik.

For Top/High tier characters, unless you get to like... top level play you're not going to really need to CP characters; stick to one character and practice practice practice.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Stupid topic is really stupid.

 

[Veetaak]

I wish crush wasn't banned in here..

he would make cool posts all the time

 

[ArcNatural]

Stupid topic is really stupid.

I don't see how the question is stupid at all. I've heard pros and cons to both methods from a lot of players.

Most believe that sticking to one character benefits you much better than using multiple characters against specific matchups.

A lot of people struggle when they sort of peak at their current level of skill with their mains, sometimes switching mains or mixing up your characters can help you break out of it.

 

[Kal]

It depends on how much time you have to invest and how you plan on investing it. If you're only picking up Fox because you don't like Marth vs. Sheik, that is going to be a problem when you play against a Sheik/Falco main and are forced to play Fox vs. Falco or Marth vs. Sheik. So, if you pick up a secondary, be sure he's actually a secondary: know all of his matchups, and keep him as a second option across the board.

Depending on your level of play, your growth as a player might get stunted. At higher levels, there is a small period of trying to pick up the character where you are initially off-put by the character's differences from your main, but this is a minor issue. At lower levels, you will find it harder to become fluid with either character because you are still becoming accustomed to the game's nuance. My suggestion has always been to choose a main to focus on until reaching a certain skill level (generally some sort of peak where you aren't rapidly improving from simple facts), then pick up a secondary if you feel that is appropriate.

 

[azianraven]

Switching between characters isn't a terrible thing because if you win with your counterpick, that's all that matters at the end of the day.

However, counterpicking makes you focus your abilities with a secondary on a smaller and different set of opponents with the size of the sets varying according to your reason for CP (Listed) rather.

Character based Counterpick

This is probably where most CPs stem from and especially in low level play. For example, say you hate the marth vs sheik matchup playing as marth. Instead, you resort to fox to handle this character. Now, you have to rely on your fox that you only play vs sheiks against every sheik regardless of skill level because you can't handle the matchup with your main.

Player based Counterpick.

You pretty much pick a character solely to beat one player. This is probably the most limiting of CPs because you have to learn one character for just one player.

There are other reasons for counterpicking, but these are the two I most commonly see. I don't see anything wrong with counterpicking, I just don't like the inconsistency it gives to most smashers. Yes, it is nice on the short term when you need to wreck that garbage matchup in a tourney, but now you've just made twice as many obstacles to overcome. One, against the bracket (The one that all players face) and two, with a secondary in one matchup.

 

[Pogogo]

I think its more your experience and your practice that limits you. Excellent examples are Axe, who plays a bad character but produces very good results, or Mango, who randomly switches mains. Even people who feel stuck get better, even always counter picking characters. I'm not even sure if I believe you must "play to win" to progress just based on the number of people who play to play and become good.

 

[Warhawk]

Stupid topic is really stupid.

How is it a bad thread? So he's not allowed to use a thread to create a discussion on an issue that doesn't really have a clear-cut answer? Why do you always post like such an *** on things you don't necessarily agree with? As if its such a crime for people to have viewpoints or questions that you personally don't care for. If you don't like it or care for it then just don't post at all.

 

[Kal]

Warhawk, if it's not obvious to you that we're supposed to know exactly what Blistering Speed wants us to talk about before we talk about it, then I don't know what to say.

 

[Archangel]

I think it limits long term skill but brings short term success. It's no secret that people who stick to their guns.(shroomed and hax come to mind) Those players reach a higher level with that character than people who switch to other characters.

 

[N64]

If you plan to use that char as a consistent counterpick in the matchup, I don't really see how there's an issue. If you switch from Marth to Sheik to fight against CFs, then yeah you'll suck at Marth vs CF, but you'll only have to play the matchup if someone switches to CF on their counterpick. You may end up playing Sheik vs. somethingelse if they switch off CF on their counterpick, so there is that to worry about.

Otherwise, you'll get good at Sheik vs CF and Marth vs EveryoneElse.

Now, if you start adding more counterpick chars so that you're counterpicking every other matchup, you'll have an issue with spreading yourself across too many chars and ending up being mediocre with all of them. Having 1-2 pocket counter chars should be pretty manageable.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Certain other examples I can think of at the high level is Ice at Apex. Clearly Ice is a high level player, but apparently he doesn't like to do Marth dittos. He lost to HBK's Marth as Sheik in losers round 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhi-uQjRqc0&feature=related

And he lost to Niko's Marth in pools, also playing as Sheik.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA-ejc6ftRg

Not saying that he would have necessarily won if he had gone Marth, but damn I wish he would at least try with his main instead of switching out. Niko and HBK are too good to just get bumped by some secondary Sheik.

Also, Ken dominated as only Marth. Mango dominated as Puff. Now he's still a beast player, but doesn't seem to enjoy the same success as he did when he was a pure puff main. M2K was at his prime when he was only Marth. Shroomed and Wobbles consistently place top ten with "bad" characters that they stick to. It just seems to me that no matter how I look at it, truly being good at this game (at some level) has to do with completely mastering the character and overcoming bad matchups, not avoiding them.

Also, as far as Armada cp'ing Hbox with Young Link, I think that's an exception because aside from that one counterpick for one player, there isn't another player who can challenge Armada, and Hbox hasn't yet been able to beat that strategy.

 

[Warhawk]

Also, Ken dominated as only Marth. Mango dominated as Puff. Now he's still a beast player, but doesn't seem to enjoy the same success as he did when he was a pure puff main. M2K was at his prime when he was only Marth.

Ken actually had a Fox that he would use every so often and Mang0 was dominant for awhile with Falco too and not just Puff. Mang0 isn't as dominant because people caught up with him, not because he stopped playing only Puff, which one could argue he switched because he couldn't play Puff the way he wanted and still be dominant with the metagame shifting. Also if I recall correctly, when M2K first started playing Sheik he destroyed people he had trouble with before. Like I think I remembering 4-stocking PC Chris who normally gave him trouble back then.

 

[JPOBS]

I think M2K was better when he focused on Marth and didn't switch between 3 characters to cover all matchups. I feel like this is something that has hurt him over time.

I strongly disagree.

I don't think switching characters has hurt m2k in the long run. There are numerous other reasons which have had a more direct impact on his skill, namely, the fact that he all but stopped practicing melee as of 2008, and only plays at tournaments. The release of brawl, and his complete lack of practice has *much* more impact on his relative skill i'd imagine, than whether he happens to chose sheik or marth. And besides, even in his absolute prime, m2k frequently used fox, so no.

Almost every good player in the history of melee has had atleast 2 tournament characters even if one was considered more of a "main." Some players even entirely switched mains and STILL remained in the top 3 of their time.


the only players who could arguably contribute the entirety of their success to only one character are hbox, PP, and Armada if you don't count Ylink. Oh and i guess there are the falcon and ice climber mains as well. For whatever reason, those two characters have historically been polarizing .

I would argue that "only use one main" is actually a new thing because ken/kdj/PC/azen and mlg era players ALL had numerous characters in tournament.

 

[danieljosebatista]

I strongly disagree.

I don't think switching characters has hurt m2k in the long run. There are numerous other reasons which have had a more direct impact on his skill, namely, the fact that he all but stopped practicing melee as of 2008, and only plays at tournaments. The release of brawl, and his complete lack of practice has *much* more impact on his relative skill i'd imagine, than whether he happens to chose sheik or marth. And besides, even in his absolute prime, m2k frequently used fox, so no.

Almost every good player in the history of melee has had atleast 2 tournament characters even if one was considered more of a "main." Some players even entirely switched mains and STILL remained in the top 3 of their time.


the only players who could arguably contribute the entirety of their success to only one character are hbox, PP, and Armada if you don't count Ylink. Oh and i guess there are the falcon and ice climber mains as well. For whatever reason, those two characters have historically been polarizing .

I would argue that "only use one main" is actually a new thing because ken/kdj/PC/azen and mlg era players ALL had numerous characters in tournament.

Like you said, back then it was more of a norm to have multiple tournament characters. But I just don't think counterpicks were used in the same way. For example, when Ken lost to PC Chris he didn't say "**** I guess I should go Fox on this guy." He practiced and defeated him with Marth next time. I think the real problem comes when people resort to counterpicks as a method of avoiding matchups they simply would rather not play. As far as switching mains goes, no one said switching is bad. M2K actually switched from Fox to Marth, that's when he became the beast he was for a while.

Ken actually had a Fox that he would use every so often and Mang0 was dominant for awhile with Falco too and not just Puff. Mang0 isn't as dominant because people caught up with him, not because he stopped playing only Puff, which one could argue he switched because he couldn't play Puff the way he wanted and still be dominant with the metagame shifting. Also if I recall correctly, when M2K first started playing Sheik he destroyed people he had trouble with before. Like I think I remembering 4-stocking PC Chris who normally gave him trouble back then.

I still feel like this just drives the point home though. These players DID enjoy short-term benefits from selective counterpicking, only to later be beaten by players who were more solid with their mains in matchups that they couldn't handle. M2K's sheik can't handle PP's Falco, neither can his Marth. Armada just about destroys everyone.

 

[JPOBS]

You're using armada as a example of a player who is great because he just learned how to win with one main. But this is the say guy who practiced in his room secretly for a year developing a counter pick for ONE player in ONE matchup, because he couldn't win with his main.

*shrugs* I don't see your point at all, sorry. Counterpicking is a part of the game should be encouraged, not discouraged imo.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Also, as far as Armada cp'ing Hbox with Young Link, I think that's an exception because aside from that one counterpick for one player, there isn't another player who can challenge Armada, and Hbox hasn't yet been able to beat that strategy.

But your point stands, he does counterpick Hbox after all lol. I just feel that it's legitimate because we can't really say he's limiting himself since he doesn't lose.

Edit: I'm not necessarily discouraging counterpicking, just wondering if it limits growth and if maybe it should be used as a last resort like in Armada's case

 

[Warhawk]

I still feel like this just drives the point home though. These players DID enjoy short-term benefits from selective counterpicking, only to later be beaten by players who were more solid with their mains in matchups that they couldn't handle. M2K's sheik can't handle PP's Falco, neither can his Marth. Armada just about destroys everyone.

I guess that's where we disagree because I really think Mang0 lost short-term by fiddling with Falco (had some much closer sets with people for awhile and even lost to Kage at ROM) but in the long run became dominant again for awhile. I feel its more people caught up (or Mang0's own dwindling motivation at the game) than that switching from a single main to a Falco-Puff and eventually Falco-Fox player caused him harm in the long run. His Puff and the style he played Puff with would not have been able to remain dominant once people began to play Puff more campy like how they do now. I think that training his Falco in the end kept Mang0 a top threat and prevented him from falling from the top when Puff stopped being as dominant. Also Armada has tons of secondaries besides just Young Link that he plays and he's still the best player in the world. In fact other than Hungrybox really, and even him too if you count his supposed Ness secondary, the top 5 in the world all have at least one secondary and Mang0 and Armada have a bunch.

 

[twizzlerj]

if you go between fox and falco like fox for sheik,peach and puff i guess. Falco for falcon and others since i think falco can camp a little better in match ups. Yea between them shouldn't hinder you.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, questions like these don't work if you don't define what you mean by "skill." Some people think that a player who can approach all the time successfully is more skillful than someone who can time out his opponents successfully. Others would argue the opposite.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Warhawk, if it's not obvious to you that we're supposed to know exactly what Blistering Speed wants us to talk about before we talk about it, then I don't know what to say.

I'm glad someone gets it.

JPOBS covered everything pretty comprehensively. I still have no idea why Ice Climbers and Falcon's historically don't have secondaries. Pride? They have some crippling matchups.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Well, questions like these don't work if you don't define what you mean by "skill." Some people think that a player who can approach all the time successfully is more skillful than someone who can time out his opponents successfully. Others would argue the opposite.

By skill I just mean overall tourney performance, anything else is pretty hard to say really.

 

[Mahone]

I don't really think ur wondering anything.... seems like uve already made up ur mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5yrBwJJujc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIPssvmCAG0

m2k would most likely have lost grand finals of 2 tournaments against mango if he didn't have a sheik for mango's falcon...

chu uses pikachu for peach players and was at one point the best player in the world

mango lost to dehf and other falco's with his puff before pound 3.... he hates that matchup and always played falco dittos... he fox dittoed azen on green greens game 3 of pound 3, since fox jiggs is like unwinnable there

isai used sheik for teams and is considered one of the best teams player of all time...


I dunno man i could go on, but the point is it CAN help

 

[Kal]

I still have no idea why Ice Climbers and Falcon's historically don't have secondaries. Pride? They have some crippling matchups.

I don't think it's pride. Some players believe they can be overcome, and others don't have the time to invest in multiple characters. This is especially true with Falcon and Ice Climbers, who don't have the raw power to merely be picked up and played well. They require serious time investments.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I don't think it's pride. Some players believe they can be overcome, and others don't have the time to invest in multiple characters. This is especially true with Falcon and Ice Climbers, who don't have the raw power to merely be picked up and played well. They require serious time investments.

Yes, but this is true of every character at the highest level.

 

[Kal]

At the highest level, I might agree. I was referring more to mid to mid-high level Falcon players who stick to their guns.

 

[Strong Badam]

I do think it does. It prevents you from gaining tournament experience with your main. If you also continue to use your secondary for certain match-ups you can come to a question of "What character do I use?"
My friend uses both spacies and Falcon quite well and he's often faced with that question. Sometimes he's switching chars constantly throughout a set because he's not sure what will work. I just use 1 character, Donkey Kong, and do my best.

If you're at top level and you're intelligently using different characters to cover match-up weaknesses then you're already past the point where tournament experience with your main is incredibly vital. You already know what you're doing by then, and changing characters is more of a positive than a hindrance.

 

[Blistering Speed]

At the highest level, I might agree. I was referring more to mid to mid-high level Falcon players who stick to their guns.

All the top level Falcon's also do this though, which is what perplexes me. You'd think they'd have some competitive aspiration.

 

[Kal]

Maybe they do it so we can have something to discuss in a stupid topic that is really stupid.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think Falcon mains have an incredible amount of character pride. Some of the most talented players ever chose to use Captain Falcon not because he was the best character, but because he was the most fun/flashiest/coolest character and wanted to push him to his limits.

 

[Warhawk]

All the top level Falcon's also do this though, which is what perplexes me. You'd think they'd have some competitive aspiration.

I think if they didn't have character pride they wouldn't play Falcon for tournament matches at all since they would only want to win. I think you have to have character pride to main Falcon. Or want to have fun more than you want to win. Not that Falcon's bad, just there are characters that are better in every single matchup than Falcon is (ok maybe Falcon is better in one matchup, but the one is like barely better for Falcon and neglibible) and if winning truly was numero uno for them then they'd play that character.

 

[Archangel]

I think Falcon has a chance against anyone. I'm sure some falcon players have this same belief in their character. They also believe that they have a chance against anyone as well. History remembers the winners and the overall top 5 placings...etc. Still at one point in history Silent spectre was 1 hit away from beating the best player in the world, He also beat Armada at pound 4. I don't think he would have got to that point or did nearly as well if he switched to fox.

 

[Bones0]

If you are just picking a secondary for a certain matchup, you're going to do a little better in the short term, and then you'll improve less quickly than if you stuck with your main, but once you reach a certain point of experience your secondary will catch back up with your main. Basically, it doesn't matter as long as you aren't relying on a certain characteristic of your secondary as a crutch to net you easy wins, and as long as you keep up practice with it.

 

[danieljosebatista]

I think Falcon has a chance against anyone. I'm sure some falcon players have this same belief in their character. They also believe that they have a chance against anyone as well. History remembers the winners and the overall top 5 placings...etc. Still at one point in history Silent spectre was 1 hit away from beating the best player in the world, He also beat Armada at pound 4. I don't think he would have got to that point or did nearly as well if he switched to fox.

I agree with you. Obviously Falcon has rough matchups but that doesn't mean he can't win. Personally i think anyone who sticks to their character (not assuming unviable characters of course) can become a top player