Does anyone else find ike hard to deal with?

[elheber]

We can argue that the fireball is or is not a game changer 'til the apolcolypse. But can we at least agree that, to whatever extent, Luigi's Fireball is at least an advantage against Ike? A big advantage or a very small advantage, but an advantage none the less.

Being able to attack from a distance and minimizing risk is always an advantage. And it's not an advantage Luigi usualy gets against other characters. At best, Fireball spam can completely throw the opponent off-balance. At worst, it can force Ike into an offensive position. Whatever the case, Ike mainers have adapted to projectiles just as Luigi mainers have adapted to his own traction.

Big advantage, small advantage... still an advantage. It's not Luigi's only strength.

 

[Eten]

Fireballs are used to annoy an Ike who keeps waiting for you to rush into his moves. Luigi is as fast as hell in his attacks, but he doesn't have high mobility outside of the tornado. So unlike some other, faster characters that can catch Ike in the wind-up portion of some of Ike's moves, Luigi doesn't. Instead, you simply back off and chuck that green fireball and get some free damage. It forces Ike to approach, and it's in that approach that you'll find your opportunity to punish him.

It forces Ike to play the way you want him to play, and makes up for the fact that Luigi isn't the fastest character around.

Now, I know that *really good* Ike players do not easily give up punishable lag and will try to space the crap out of you with mostly aerials. Thankfully Luigi doesn't make an easy target and even really good Ike players are going to give you a place to land your hits. But if you fireball carelessly you do make yourself an easy target(in contrast to spamming aerials carelessly, you don't actually give a lot of openings), so you need to use them sparingly. They aren't an all-dominating projectile to be used aggressively.

 

[Locuan]

Fireballs are useful, i'm not arguing that........but they certainly don't give Luigi the advantage in the match.
Even in the match vs. Ankoku the fireballs didn't change the game or anything.

Well considering that you posted:

Ike can just jab the fireball............seriously fireballs are crap against Ike stop bringing them up.

One had the idea that you considered fireballs to be "no good" and had no usefulness in a match.

Now you are saying that they are useful? Your contradicting yourself . Either way as Eten said:

But if you fireball carelessly you do make yourself an easy target(in contrast to spamming aerials carelessly, you don't actually give a lot of openings), so you need to use them sparingly. They aren't an all-dominating projectile to be used aggressively.

Therefore, its all about knowing when and when not to use Luigi's fireballs.

 

[-Mars-]

They are crap against Ike is what I said and you brought up vids against Marth and MK.........two overly aggressive characters that play completely opposite from Ike.

 

[Locuan]

True, the part of MK and Marth being offensive, but still the idea stands, you need to use the fireballs accordingly, against a defensive character or offensive character, what differences their use is the way you manipulate them.

 

[hippiedude92]

Couldn't we just end this discussion by saying ike is garbage against projectile users or just has a hard time with projectile users? lol.

the fireball isn't a game breaking thing anyways unlike a infinite.

 

[HeroMystic]

Fireballs will be used against Ike to hinder his spacing ability. End of discussion.

 

[Gea]

ROFL, make him approach you, then play patient and wait for him to do something, and punish. Ike is a matchup that actually requires waiting and precise timing because his attacks are so ****ed strong with weird timing.

Fireballs are useful as long as you aren't set up to be fair/baired out of the animation. Use it to annoy/force approach. His game is stunted then.

I miss Luigi's ftilt range from Melee.

 

[CR4SH]

hmmm im thinking a lot of you guys have a lack of experience.

fireballs are bad in this matchup. when i fireball, ikes move ends up hitting the fireball, and THEN hitting me because its so strong lol.
.

I think you understimate us.

Like I said earlier, Ike WILL get around the fireballs.

@mars, no ****, fireballs won't be your main source of damage. Hell, they won't do any damage reliably against a good ike. What they DO do is make him act. An ike being spammed can't just stand there. THAT is what fireballs are for.

A luigi uses his fireballs because they outrange anything ike has, and it forces ike to act. Any action has a potential to be punished. Some more, some less, some hardly at all. But force them to act enough, and they'll do something stupid. Nobody is a robot.

Fireballs!=win, however fireballs=advantage.

Edit: Lol, I forgot the whole reason I made this post. " when i fireball, ikes move ends up hitting the fireball, and THEN hitting me because its so strong lol"

Any time an Ike is in a position to hit you through a fireball, you shouldn't have thrown that fireball. Like I said earlier, you spam, then read. You read the ike completely wrong. In that situation, you take advantage of the Ike attack that would have gone through your fireball, avoid it and punish him. This is the entire reason you're throwing fireballs.

 

[ALiAsVee]

I think you understimate us.

Like I said earlier, Ike WILL get around the fireballs.

@mars, no ****, fireballs won't be your main source of damage. Hell, they won't do any damage reliably against a good ike. What they DO do is make him act. An ike being spammed can't just stand there. THAT is what fireballs are for.

A luigi uses his fireballs because they outrange anything ike has, and it forces ike to act. Any action has a potential to be punished. Some more, some less, some hardly at all. But force them to act enough, and they'll do something stupid. Nobody is a robot.

Fireballs!=win, however fireballs=advantage.

Edit: Lol, I forgot the whole reason I made this post. " when i fireball, ikes move ends up hitting the fireball, and THEN hitting me because its so strong lol"

Any time an Ike is in a position to hit you through a fireball, you shouldn't have thrown that fireball. Like I said earlier, you spam, then read. You read the ike completely wrong. In that situation, you take advantage of the Ike attack that would have gone through your fireball, avoid it and punish him. This is the entire reason you're throwing fireballs.

Can I throw in the minor hitstun that comes with fireballs? That plays an even bigger role with Ike I think. Luckily, Luigi can fireball, take advantage of Ike's stun, and get the hell out.

It all comes down to how good of a spacer you are, cause the minute you make a mistake, you'll get sent flying.

Boiled Down Version: Ike isn't hard.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike isn't easy to play against though. He's probably one of Luigi's most annoying matchups by far because you can't punish him out of shield easily unless you powershield or spotdodge at the right time.

Still, you have the advantage on him since you can camp him, and easily combo him.

It's not like Ike is easily KOing Luigi anyway either. In fact he has pretty significant trouble getting KOs easily since most of his kill moves are telegraphed, and the few moves he's able to use a lot won't kill unless he just died.

 

[-Mars-]

I left a thread on the Ike board to get some of their opinions on the matchup. Maybe my thinking is wrong on the issue.

 

[YagamiLight]

This topic is hilarious to read. And by hilarious I mean it burns my eyes to a point that few other versus Ike topics do.

Let me begin by saying that Ike has a clear advantage in this match-up. It's not a **** match, but it's pretty much 6-4. Vastly more range, priority, power against speed, combos and some joke of a projectile. I can't believe some fools here actually stated that Ike can be camped with Fireballs. Are we all stuck at the "April 2008" phase when everyone seemed to think that Ike instantly loses to any sort of projectile? Luigi's Fireball does exactly two things in this match: It can force Ike to approach and it can stop a Quick Draw recovery. There are few characters that Ike will NOT be approaching against, and as for Quick Draw, it's very seldom used as a form of recovery. The fireball is slow, follows a set path and can be jabbed or simply power shielded. I have really no idea why any of you think it is any good.

And this "Ike isn't going to be killing" joke is also funny, though not quite as much so. Luigi isn't light, by any means, but he's still a middle weight character. When almost every move Ike has is a kill move, it is VERY hard to imagine Luigi not being properly zoned and hit. Ike's Ftilt and Fair cover ridiculous amounts of range and the Ftilt really does kill early. If you think all of Ike's moves are telegraphed or something like that, I suggest the theory-playing stop.

I saw some mention that Ike can't do anything to a Luigi recovering. Unfortunately, Ike can actually Fair Luigi's Side B and his Up B isn't much for distance, is it? I'm not saying that Luigi can't equally mess with Ike offstage, in fact Luigi has a better off-stage game! But this whole "Don't worry, Ike can't do much to you when you're recovering thing" is a fallacy.

Feel free to discuss anything you want about my post.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

What yagami said isn't even half of it. Comments like I look for patterns and just dodge his smashes have to stop. I actually think the luigi boards should tell those 2 guys and anyone else saying something similar to stay away from any type of match up discussion.

Seriously look for patterns? god stop playing with anyone on wifi.

Only a few people have actually said real things that can be used against Ike effectively but most just say crap with out actually realizing the match up. Even Pit's projectile isn't much of a problem so I wouldn't even consider it an advantage.

 

[Kinzer]

Thank you Light, you have shown the Luigi boards the "Light" (lol). I mean C'mon, the Mario boards were cooler than this, they knew d*** well Fireballs wouldn't give them the advantage over Ike, but at least we came to an agreement of 55:45 Mario for other reasons.

But what do I know, I have yet to fight a good Luigi as of yet, however I'm applying my general knowledge of the playstyles of each character, if you feel that you disagree that Ike/Luigi or more or less neutral, feel free to hit me up, maybe we can arrange something on Wi-Fi. (Yes I know, Wi-Fi johns come to mind but it's my only means of getting Brawls, it's more or less a tool used to help me get a clearer thought on the matchup assuming any of you Luigis are willing to take up on my offer, don't worry it's not TOO serious, but there is some in there because I absolutely love it when people assume that Ike is at a bad disadvantage for somewhat stupid reasons.)

 

[YagamiLight]

Thank you Light, you have shown the Luigi boards the "Light" (lol). I mean C'mon, the Mario boards were cooler than this, they knew d*** well Fireballs wouldn't give them the advantage over Ike, but at least we came to an agreement of 55:45 Mario for other reasons.

Well, actually YOU and the Mario boards agreed to that. ^_^

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Yah I don't think its mario's advantage either. Ike > Italians.

 

[Kinzer]

Alright alright, THEY have come to that conclusion, can we just let them run their matchup thread the way they want to? >.>

 

[HeroMystic]

We Marios like to be as accurate as possible, but we're not elitists.

If something is not right, we want to fix it, for better or for worse, so we can delve in even more bigger detail when the time comes.

btw, lol @ thread hijacking about Mario.

 

[ROFL]

well....i agree with light lol.

i really do feel the average skill level of the luigi boards is fairly low and lacking experience. i feel completely alone sometimes when i go on here looking for knowledgeable information lol.

 

[ROFL]

we should do an ike vs luigi wifi tournament lol.

luigi boards picks 3 of their top players.

ike boards does the same.
we do some battle and pick a winner.

 

[Kinzer]

Luigi is always overshadowed by his older brother.

Edit: I just want challenges, not a tournament to further complicate things! O.o

 

[ROFL]

well....you know...not a TOURNAMENT.

but each players plays a best of 3 set. we report the winnings and see which characters did better.

it wouldnt really prove anything because it comes down to skill of the player, and wifi is a whole new game especially with ike, but maybe it would change the minds of some people.

 

[HeroMystic]

Luigi is always overshadowed by his older brother.

In Brawl? It's vise versa. >_>

 

[Kinzer]

But it's not that way in this thread for the moment, Hero!

Anyway yeah it wouldn't work ROFL, again I'm only accepting challenges from Weegees because I want to, go ask somebody like Burrito if he would do Wi-Fi challenges and see what he says about it. >.>

 

[-Mars-]

I actually think the Luigi boards are intelligent. I don't even main or secondary Luigi, I just love to play him and I love coming on this board for discussion and tips. I want to see what HippieDude and some of the other Luigi mains say when they see some of this stuff tomorrow.

On a side note Ikes gold outfit is epic, why it's not required for Ike players to use is beyond me

 

[Matador]

This is a 60:40: matchup in Ike's favor.

Luigi has a great combo game on Ike, reasonable KO%, and a projectile to help hinder Ike's spacing. Luigi can even get around Ike's gimping if you recover smart and mix it up a bit. So why 60:40?

How is Luigi going to get in and how is he going to stay in? Ike vastly outranges Luigi and if he spaces well enough, you won't be able to punish the lag. Luigi's approach options aren't the least bit safe and his projectile does little more than annoy. Sure, you can mindgame your fireball into a makeshift approach tactic, but Ike's jab game kicks Luigi right back out. Not only that, but Ike's OOS game keeps you from pulling off your combos if you DO happen to get close. Luigi's defensive game is...lacking, which is bad because it's almost required in this matchup.

You stay on defensive until you can approach. Once you approach, you combo. No defensive game, no approach. No approach, no combos. No combos, no KOs.

Ike can even wreck your recovery. Recover low, you get spiked or simply swatted back out during your upB, downB or sideB. Recover directly toward him, same deal. Recovering high is safe right? Except...being over Ike is a VERY bad position especially for someone as floaty as Luigi. So...you CAN get around Ike's gimp game, but it's still a very real threat to Luigi.

Well, actually YOU and the Mario boards agreed to that. ^_^

I agreed to even

 

[Kinzer]

No really, the Marios are freaking cool.

 

[Hoser]

Fireballs aren't crap. Yes, he can jab them, but you'll shoot one right after, he'll use his second jab, then his last jab, and then he eats two fireballs. If you shoot one out of nowhere it'll get him off guard. Shoot one if he uses QD, etc. There are many opportunities to use a fireball.

There's something we call jab canceling. We can punch fireballs until the end of time if you really are foolish enough to just stand there and shoot them. And you'll rarely see and Ike use QD, especially when it can be punished by something as slow as a fireball.

Ike has the advantage here, as explained by various posts in the last two pages.

Couldn't we just end this discussion by saying ike is garbage against projectile users or just has a hard time with projectile users?

NO U

 

[WIGI]

ok. ike vrs luigi.


ike vrs luigi is much like ddd crs luigi.

one grab and thats the stock pretty much.

luigi grabs ike and that can do one fo 2 thing.

pop jim into the air. once this happens luigi has his way with ike, a few up airs or any ariel really ill ahppene before iek can even get a bair out. this can get good preceantage on ike,

or. if you are near the edge. a forward throw or back throw puts ike in a posistion where he needs to double jump in order to get into up b or side b recovery range,luigi is fast and a fair before or after the double jump will gimp ike. and luigi can always follow up with another ariel just to be safe. theres the stock. ive done this countless times on some good ike players.


Bair aproaching seems to work too if you control and space it properly


my opinion

Luigi 70
ike 30

 

[HeroMystic]

my opinion

Luigi 70
ike 30

Welcome to the "This is what the other boards always say" topic.

That's simply not true.

 

[SaltyKracka]

ok. ike vrs luigi.


ike vrs luigi is much like ddd crs luigi.

one grab and thats the stock pretty much.

luigi grabs ike and that can do one fo 2 thing.

pop jim into the air. once this happens luigi has his way with ike, a few up airs or any ariel really ill ahppene before iek can even get a bair out. this can get good preceantage on ike,

or. if you are near the edge. a forward throw or back throw puts ike in a posistion where he needs to double jump in order to get into up b or side b recovery range,luigi is fast and a fair before or after the double jump will gimp ike. and luigi can always follow up with another ariel just to be safe. theres the stock. ive done this countless times on some good ike players.


Bair aproaching seems to work too if you control and space it properly


my opinion

Luigi 70
ike 30

Please go out and learn how to play Brawl.

 

[Locuan]

Ok first of all:

Ike can gimp Luigi
Luigi can gimp Ike not as well but he can.
For a Luigi getting into Ike is not easy but as soon as he does he will get a lot of percentage in there.
Aerial wise Ike is at a disadvantage.

-A properly spaced Ike can negate approaches by a Luigi user. (This ends up with our initial disadvantage but it can be overcomed.)

You stay on defensive until you can approach. Once you approach, you combo. No defensive game, no approach. No approach, no combos. No combos, no KOs.

^ This is the point that requires the most emphasis because getting Ike into the air in that situation is not an easy task, basically the Luigi user has to keep an eye out for any mistake miss one and you lost your opportunity.

Patience is a virtue, and after the Luigi is in range he will manage to get decent percentages in there.

Unfortunately, I have still not arrived to a conclusion around the matchup, this is because most of us are assuming information.

EDIT:

NOTE: Ike can gimp Luigi but this is if Luigi does not recover correctly... A lot of people are assuming Luigi will recover from under the stage and use side-b instantly.

 

[Chis]

my opinion

Luigi 70
ike 30

I hope that's sarcasm.

 

[Matador]

WIGI's Post

My eyes are burning...

^ This is the point that requires the most emphasis because getting Ike into the air in that situation is not an easy task, basically the Luigi user has to keep an eye out for any mistake miss one and you lost your opportunity.

Patience is a virtue, and after the Luigi is in range he will manage to get decent percentages in there.

Exactly my point. Ike's offensive game > Luigi's defensive game. What's Luigi going to do when Ike is pressuring him, or what's he going to do when Ike's doing retreating aerials to keep him away? His jab game and offstage game also allow Ike to safely play aggressive the entire time. All he has to worry about is spacing.

NOTE: Ike can gimp Luigi but this is if Luigi does not recover correctly... A lot of people are assuming Luigi will recover from under the stage and use side-b instantly.

Ike can even wreck your recovery. Recover low, you get spiked or simply swatted back out during your upB, downB or sideB. Recover directly toward him, same deal. Recovering high is safe right? Except...being over Ike is a VERY bad position especially for someone as floaty as Luigi. So...you CAN get around Ike's gimp game, but it's still a very real threat to Luigi.

 

[Locuan]

Ike can even wreck your recovery. Recover low, you get spiked or simply swatted back out during your upB, downB or sideB. Recover directly toward him, same deal. Recovering high is safe right? Except...being over Ike is a VERY bad position especially for someone as floaty as Luigi. So...you CAN get around Ike's gimp game, but it's still a very real threat to Luigi.

Exactly, we know Ike has a gimp game, that's why Luigi users have to act smartly while recovering and try to figure out which way the Ike user will use against Luigi's recoveries. That in a way at least very well possible considering Luigi's being floaty he can stay a while in the air before deciding when to recover and see how the Ike user reacts to certain movements or inputs a Luigi user does.

 

[Matador]

Exactly, we know Ike has a gimp game, that's why Luigi users have to act smartly while recovering and try to figure out which way the Ike user will use against Luigi's recoveries. That in a way at least very well possible considering Luigi's being floaty he can stay a while in the air before deciding when to recover and see how the Ike user reacts to certain movements or inputs a Luigi user does.

Ike can do the same because Luigi's floaty. Also, since his fastfall isn't too fast, he can follow his descent pretty easily...assuming you're recovering high where it's safe. But yea, I agree for the most part.

Basically, if you have a reliable approach in this matchup, it's a little better. Otherwise it's down to baiting to get in which isn't good for someone as generally slow as Luigi. You'd also need a formidable defensive game to deal with Ike's overwhelming range and jabs.

To my knowledge, Luigi has neither.

 

[Kirk]

I would add to the discussion but...locuan and Matador seemed to have covered this pretty well. I pretty much agree with all that you've said.

I'll just have to think some more :o

 

[Locuan]

Ike can do the same because Luigi's floaty. Also, since his fastfall isn't too fast, he can follow his descent pretty easily...assuming you're recovering high where it's safe. But yea, I agree for the most part.

Basically, if you have a reliable approach in this matchup, it's a little better. Otherwise it's down to baiting to get in which isn't good for someone as generally slow as Luigi. You'd also need a formidable defensive game to deal with Ike's overwhelming range and jabs.

To my knowledge, Luigi has neither.

I used to play very, very, very offensively with Luigi, what did I get? I got punished A LOT and I went to use MK in tournaments because of it. Now, with Luigi, I'm playing really defensively, by defensively I mean I wait for openings, bait my opponents and punish later (amongst other things), although it is a slower game method it has worked wonders for me. Therefore, this is were I have a bit of a problem with the Ike matchup analysis (at least in my case) were we are seeing a defensive character like Ike and I stating my points as a more defensive play-style.

Luigi's defensive game is not those fireball spamming parades other's normally think, I have had to learn how to properly shield/power shield, bait and counter my opponents attacks.

^ That's the problem right there when facing Ike because if he properly spaces Luigi's range, even though playing defensively, will not be sufficient in order to follow up, for example, an Ike Nair>jabs.

Overall though I don't find the matchup to be a difficult one, at least for me. This is why I haven't gone into a specific conclusion on a "rating" for the matchup. For now we have been discussing all the Ike's +'s in the matchup but we haven't taken emphasis on what Luigi can do.

What I mean is yes we have said that if Ike spaces properly Luigi will have a hard time to get in range to attack but what happens when Luigi has his range and is able to attack?

EDIT: Or what would be an excellent way for Luigi to approach?

 

[Ussi]

being patience? THAT DOES NOT FACTOR A MATCH UP! gosh -_- player attributes do not affect match ups!! What if Ike decides to be PATIENT and just use only constant pressure moves nair, jab and fair waiting for you to slip up? THEN WHAT?