Does anyone else find ike hard to deal with?

[Matador]

Overall though I don't find the matchup to be a difficult one, at least for me. This is why I haven't gone into a specific conclusion on a "rating" for the matchup. For now we have been discussing all the Ike's +'s in the matchup but we haven't taken emphasis on what Luigi can do.

What I mean is yes we have said that if Ike spaces properly Luigi will have a hard time to get in range to attack but what happens when Luigi has his range and is able to attack?

Luigi has a great combo game on Ike, reasonable KO%, and a projectile to help hinder Ike's spacing. Luigi can even get around Ike's gimping if you recover smart and mix it up a bit. So why 60:40?

Luigi's fine if he can get in. Great combo and jab game as well, and his KOs will come at pretty good %. The problem is getting in and staying in.

This is basically the equivalent of Marth vs Mario. Mario really can't get in or stay in long enough to combo him to hell (which he can since Marth is weak from below where we excel).

He can also reach out and try to Fair us during our recovery and sometimes score a gimp.

Also, our approach game is dampened because Marth is faster than we are and can swat away fireballs as an approach. If we DO happen to get close, Ike's jab...excuse me...Marth's dancing blade knocks us back out just as easily.

It falls back on Mario's defensive game...which is relatively strong with Fludd, FIHL, his awesome OOS options, and retreating fireballs. That's the ONLY reason why we don't get absolutely ***** in the matchup...because rushing the entire time isn't safe vs Mario.

That's definitely not the case with Luigi and Ike. He can practically do whatever he wants if his spacing is on point.

Wow...didn't realize. Mario vs Marth and Luigi vs Ike...

Edit:

EDIT: Or what would be an excellent way for Luigi to approach?

You give me this and Luigi's reliable defensive game, and I'll back off. Ussi already addressed why playing patient really isn't counted as a defensive game vs Ike.

 

[Ussi]

Wow...didn't realize. Mario vs Marth and Luigi vs Ike...

this concludes Fire Emblem > Super Mario Bros.

Spoiler

10lulz

 

[Locuan]

being patience? THAT DOES NOT FACTOR A MATCH UP! gosh -_- player attributes do not affect match ups!! What if Ike decides to be PATIENT and just use only constant pressure moves nair, jab and fair waiting for you to slip up? THEN WHAT?

Ok first of all, Ike is a character that is supposed to be played DEFENSIVELY. If you start to use pressure moves like crazy, countering him would not be hard at all.

Second, we know that how a player handles a specific matchup is not the same as the matchup definitions some have, were only character vs. character attributes are taken into consideration while how go around those attributes is often negated or overlooked. Here is were the irony comes in because I have seen a lot of people who win against other characters who are supposed to be "their hardest matchup" and people who see the vid etc. are going: "OMG WTF! how in the world? that is not supposed to happen."

A thorough matchup analysis Should be one were: character vs character attributes are taken into consideration but also how and what might the opponent do in order to counter this aspects and develop a way around them. This way one would be able to have the knowledge of what to do normally against a specific character and what to do when a specific character plays in X or Y manner in order to try and counter X or Y character.

EDIT: didn't see the last quote of yourself you quoted boss (lol redundant).

-As for his defensive game I have kinda explained myself before, if it seems to easy and awkward then it probably might on paper but in practice it's a totally different thing.

 

[Ussi]

"What if Ike decides to be PATIENT and just use only constant pressure moves nair, jab and fair waiting for you to slip up? THEN WHAT?"

Then answer that

 

[Matador]

this concludes Fire Emblem > Super Mario Bros.

Except I don't even agree with the Marth vs Mario matchup. They just pissed me off with their theory.

Ok first of all, Ike is a character that is supposed to be played DEFENSIVELY. If you start to use pressure moves like crazy, countering him would not be hard at all.

Second, we know that how a player handles a specific matchup is not the same as the matchup definitions some have, were only character vs. character attributes are taken into consideration while how go around those attributes is often negated or overlooked. Here is were the irony comes in because I have seen a lot of people who win against other characters who are supposed to be "their hardest matchup" and people who see the vid etc. are going: "OMG WTF! how in the world? that is not supposed to happen."

A thorough matchup analysis Should be one were: character vs character attributes are taken into consideration but also how and what might the opponent do in order to counter this aspects and develop a way around them. This way one would be able to have the knowledge of what to do normally against a specific character and what to do when a specific character plays in X or Y manner in order to try and counter X or Y character.

EDIT: didn't see the last quote of yourself you quoted boss (lol redundant).

-As for his defensive game I have kinda explained myself before, if it seems to easy and awkward then it probably might on paper but in practice it's a totally different thing.

Alright, where do you have this matchup being if the Ike is constantly spacing? If you move backward, he approaches. If you approach, he moves backward while still maintaining spacing. If you get close, Ike jabs you away if he's not already being combo'd. What're your counter actions? Advantage or disadvantage?

 

[boss8]

this concludes Fire Emblem > Super Mario Bros.

Spoiler

10lulz

o wow do you not relize who your messing with???

your messing with mario aka mr nintendo aka the N aka the main mofo who started this shizz...

super mario bro's>Fire emblem....

 

[Ussi]

Super Mario Bros. stands even now as the most sold game ever, I was kidding

 

[HeroMystic]

Except I don't even agree with the Marth vs Mario matchup. They just pissed me off with their theory.

Agreed. Theorycrafting =/= Realism.

And I somewhat agree with Loucan on his stance with character match-ups. Ussi, you know that even our character match-up thread doesn't follow that formula either, because instead of being focused on "How so-and-so character does against this character", it's focused on "How so-and-so character is able to win against this character". It's a much better realistic match-up guide.

In fact, it's probably why the Luigis (and many other boards, including myself) are rather biased when it comes to match-up threads, because they don't focus on how they get beaten, they focus on how to win.

Similarly, this is why I don't like being fully aggressive about match-up numbers unless it's dead-wrong (like all of the 70:30 disadvantages for Ike), because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter in a realistic setting.

 

[Ussi]

~_~ hence why i gave up on numbers.

 

[Matador]

Agreed. Theorycrafting =/= Realism.

And I somewhat agree with Loucan on his stance with character match-ups. Ussi, you know that even our character match-up thread doesn't follow that formula either, because instead of being focused on "How so-and-so character does against this character", it's focused on "How so-and-so character is able to win against this character". It's a much better realistic match-up guide.

In fact, it's probably why the Luigis (and many other boards, including myself) are rather biased when it comes to match-up threads, because they don't focus on how they get beaten, they focus on how to win.

Similarly, this is why I don't like being fully aggressive about match-up numbers unless it's dead-wrong (like all of the 70:30 disadvantages for Ike), because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter in a realistic setting.

Precisely why I'm kind of sick of matchup discussion. It holds little weight when it comes to the real deal. It's basically just for knowing what a character CAN do vs another...but people like Boss, Deva, and Ryoko constantly overcome these seemingly unbeatable matches and terrible odds.

I have no doubt that Boss has little trouble vs Ikes while he's Luigi...yet theory would give Ike the nod.

 

[TheMann]

o wow do you not relize who your messing with???

your messing with mario aka mr nintendo aka the N aka the main mofo who started this shizz...

super mario bro's>Fire emblem....

QFT!!!!

Anyways match up discussion sucks. There would be only one way to settle this and that would be on the sticks. Luigi players vs ike players. And since that will never happen this argument will never end and is becoming pointless.

 

[Locuan]

o wow do you not relize who your messing with???

your messing with mario aka mr nintendo aka the N aka the main mofo who started this shizz...

super mario bro's>Fire emblem....

Lol at Boss's statement.

In fact, it's probably why the Luigis (and many other boards, including myself) are rather biased when it comes to match-up threads, because they don't focus on how they get beaten, they focus on how to win.

I think this summarizes the whole argument's.

I have no doubt that Boss has little trouble vs Ikes while he's Luigi...yet theory would give Ike the nod.

In theory, I would have to agree Ike has the advantage.

An important fact though is that theory =/= as in practice.

Second, in theory seeing as if Ike's range is obviously larger than Luigi's, can gimp him, etc. the match-up would be 60:40 Ike's favor (in theory!).

What I actually think the matchup's rating is or is not I have not decided yet (based on the definition I support of matchup).

From now on I'll just argument theoretical points, since that is what most people here seem to be supporting.

 

[Ussi]

Yes everything is in theory We Ikes are used to breaking theory (Cause we 4/6 a lot of characters) not keeping it o_O So I don't know if we'll be used to having the advantage o_O...

 

[Locuan]

Theory is just that theory pretends there's a perfect X or Y character user facing another perfect X or Y character user who does not even blink or make mistakes. That's why I don't stand by it, lol ironic I'm majoring theoretical physics.

That's the problem with theory, let's place chemistry for example. Your testing Y element's reactions with X element; once you mix them your supposed to get 100g of YX's compound theoretically but you end up getting 92g experimentally in other words depending on how a person handles the situation theory can shift dramatically. Either way, theoretically Ike must have matchups that give him an advantage.

 

[CR4SH]

OK, WOW. As someone who has fought multiple Ikes, in tournament situations. Ones that know what they're doing. Hearing you guys dismiss fireballs completely, makes me want to laugh.

It's obvious that you've never fought a good luigi. It's obvious that you don't know what fireballs can do to your approach. It's obvious that you're completely biased.

FIREBALLS FORCE IKE TO ACT. That in itself is an advantage! How do you not understand this? You guys act like you're the only one who knows how to powershield. How does luigi get in on ike? He dosen't he forces Ike to come to him. How does luigi stay in? With a powershield. Or by throwing a fireball into an ike approach. Or with a ****ed doge. Once there, damage will come.

And saying luigi has "moderate" KO options on anyone, is kind of hilarious.

Yes, ike has range on luigi. Yes, Ike has power on luigi. Yes Ike WILL get his KO's. But a situation where you're forced to make the first move, is a big disadvantage! I play luigi! I understand this thoroughly!

[/bias][/rant]

At the end of the day, luigi has the advantage, because of fireballs, and things he can do behind one. Not a big advantage, but an advantage.

 

[Ussi]

So fireballs force Ike to act? Sooo what? Ike can deal with them rather easily. Luigi can't deal with Ike's offense easily. advantages are given by the difficultly on how the situations (in theory) are easily dealt with.

 

[Kinzer]

This guy's post.

Okay, I give up. It's another person who thinks projectiles are going to drastically change the matchup. Believe what you want, but Luigi is at best neutral. Fireballs won't prove to do anything but annoy, it's just another tool that you have, but of course we have things to counteract it. Please think before you post, Ike is tired of hearing people say that he sucks vs projectiles.

And I have yet to get anything from any of the Weegees to toss me up a Wi-Fi challenge, and until I find somebody who is at least at my level if not higher, I will continue to believe that Ike > Luigi.

 

[CR4SH]

Okay, I give up. It's another person who thinks projectiles are going to drastically change the matchup. Believe what you want, but Luigi is at best neutral. Fireballs won't prove to do anything but annoy, it's just another tool that you have, but of course we have things to counteract it. Please think before you post, Ike is tired of hearing people say that he sucks vs projectiles.

And I have yet to get anything from any of the Weegees to toss me up a Wi-Fi challenge, and until I find somebody who is at least at my level if not higher, I will continue to believe that Ike > Luigi.

Thinks is one thing. Has seen it happen, has DONE it. That's another thing entirely.

As for "forces ike to act, so what?" LOL@you.

Annoying Ike is the WHOLE POINT. If you didn't know that's what I've been saying, then you haven't been paying attention. Fireballs throw ike's game off. Like it or not, they just do. They hamper him from doing what he wants to do.

As for comparing the effect to mario's fireballs. The concept makes sense, but it's wrong. All Ike has to do is just jump over mario's fireballs. To deal with luigi's he has to initiate some sort of action. If you can read that action, you can punish it. Moreover, if you can condition ike to take a specific action to deal with your fireballs, you have a giant advantage. It's a wall, its a mindgame that only works one way.

Fireballs matter. Dismissing them is idiotic. No they are not the win buttton, but they are a distinct advantage in an otherwise very close matchup.

As for a wifi challenge? Are you kidding? Are you high? Wifi proves exactly nothing. Wifi brawl != face to face brawl. Acting like a wifi match will prove anything makes you look ridiculous.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh boy, hold on I'm going to post a quote of mine earlier.

I'm back, and this is what I have to say to you.

Maybe I put a little too much emphasize (spelling check?) on Fireballs. They aren't EVEN so much annoying as they are yet another obstacle I just have to overcome. Again you need to stop worshipping it and stop kissing up to something as impudent as Fireballs and see it for what it really is.

Also:

But what do I know, I have yet to fight a good Luigi as of yet, however I'm applying my general knowledge of the playstyles of each character, if you feel that you disagree that Ike/Luigi or more or less neutral, feel free to hit me up, maybe we can arrange something on Wi-Fi. (Yes I know, Wi-Fi johns come to mind but it's my only means of getting Brawls, it's more or less a tool used to help me get a clearer thought on the matchup assuming any of you Luigis are willing to take up on my offer, don't worry it's not TOO serious, but there is some in there because I absolutely love it when people assume that Ike is at a bad disadvantage for somewhat stupid reasons.)

I KNOW D*** WELL WI-FI PROVES NOTHING, I JUST USE IT BECAUSE THE ONLY TOURNAMENT IN MY AREA IS ON A MONDAY WHICH I'M NOT AVAILABLE, DID YOU EVEN READ THIS GOD-D***ED THREAD BEFORE YOU MADE THAT POST?!?

 

[HeroMystic]

FIREBALLS FORCE IKE TO ACT.

That doesn't stop him from spacing you.

 

[CR4SH]

That doesn't stop him from spacing you.

That's true. But there are ways to deal with that. Which I'm not really going to get into right now. Because I just jumped into this thread because people were dismissing fireballs out of hand, and it rubbed me the wrong way. If you really need an example just ask and I'll provide one. I'm holding off on it because that leads to "But Ike can deal with that with X" and someone saying "But luigi can just do Y in that situation" which leads to "But Ike...." and it never ends.

The matchup without fireballs is fairly close, but in Ike's advantage. Fireballs are a tool for luigi to create an advantge, that's all I'm saying. And I'm bringing it up because in my experiences with Ike players (which are many) fireballs are how my luigi deals with him. And they work very well.

 

[HeroMystic]

Alright. I can see your point with that.

As a pre-annoucement though, the Ike boards is getting ready for their next match-up, which is Luigi. So I suggest we should hold off the "discussion" until then.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

from my personal experience as a luigi second, and as the guy who watches ultra luigi destroy people, ike does not have an advantage, ike people, you're high. luigi gimps your recovery, forces you to approach and stops your approach. sure, you have more range, oh well, you have more range than falco, doesn't mean he isn't a bad matchup.

ike has sooo many punishable moves that if a luigi either powershields, or runs towrads you while shielding, its an upb. now, you could try to prevent this by going with jabs, but then you lose your range advantage, so its a moot point.

if luigi grabs you, dthrow into a plethora of aerials will get you (as with most fatties) up to somewhere in the 40-60% range.

and other things, but i don't want to start a long argument with people who don't know the matchup

 

[Ussi]

You missed my point cr4sh

So fireballs force Ike to act? Sooo what? Ike can deal with them rather easily. Luigi can't deal with Ike's offense easily. advantages are given by the difficultly on how the situations (in theory) are easily dealt with.

I'll also say this, projectiles do not mess up Ike's game. Ike's game is about getting around projectiles.

and -sigh-

from my personal experience as a luigi second, and as the guy who watches ultra luigi destroy people, ike does not have an advantage,

Only someone who supposedly mains both characters in discussion should make a statement like this...

ike people, you're high. luigi gimps your recovery, forces you to approach and stops your approach.

you don't realize Ike gimps Luigi harder and Luigi has no reliable defense to stop Ike. But Ike is indeed forced to approach.

sure, you have more range, oh well, you have more range than falco, doesn't mean he isn't a bad matchup.

Have you seen falco's projectile? And his CG

ike has sooo many punishable moves that if a luigi either powershields, or runs towrads you while shielding, its an upb. now, you could try to prevent this by going with jabs, but then you lose your range advantage, so its a moot point.

Yet again, we discusses this already. Luigi suffers a heavy shield push back without a power shield. And Luigi PSing Ike is the same as Ike PSing Luigi for punishment, except Ike dishes out more damage.

Also, Ike will not be using his punishable moves to APPROACH if he is playing smart.

if luigi grabs you, dthrow into a plethora of aerials will get you (as with most fatties) up to somewhere in the 40-60% range.

DI, and Ike is skinny

and other things, but i don't want to start a long argument with people who don't know the matchup

You might as well start one, someone will eventually.

 

[CR4SH]

Edit: Actually forget it, I'm going to go ahead and take hero's advice

 

[Locuan]

Ok first of all cr4sh no one has dismissed fireballs, you just have to know when and how to use your fireballs and in what situation you just can't go dishing them out if it's obvious your going to use them.

NOTE: Remember we are talking theoretically here, (unfortunately), so that any players experience against Ike or Luigi is dismissed were only they're attributes are taken into effect.

DI, and Ike is skinny

Yes you could DI but you would only be evading the follow ups not the initial 2 attacks which could get 20% at least if I'm not mistaken (assuming that we are in low %'s people!)

PS. Yes Ike is skinny, next time say like heavy for his size? lol

Also remember Ike has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that amount of range and Luigi has >>>. (So spacing for Ike is key in this matchup)

cr4sh I know were you are going and it's exactly were Boss went, in my case I'm so used to facing Ike's that it has become an easier matchup than most of the others but that's because of experience not by theory (unfortunately matchup discussions are almost always based on theory).

 

[Ussi]

Yes you could DI but you would only be evading the follow ups not the initial 2 attacks which could get 20% at least if I'm not mistaken (assuming that we are in low %'s people!)

taking 20% =/= taking 40-60% that's all I was trying to debunk.

 

[Locuan]

taking 20% =/= taking 40-60% that's all I was trying to debunk.

LOL

BTW Ike d-tilt spikes are evil I've never been hit by one but I've nailed some a couple of times. (something to put into for 10 chars, didn't want to be boring and write 10 chars lol).

 

[CR4SH]

I understand what you're saying loucan. I would like to add this point though.

There are actually situations where you can just sit and spam fireballs at ike like a bozo. There is a range at which Ike can't punish you for throwing fireballs. I'm not saying any of them will actually HIT (though if you throw enough one or two will get through eventually) but thats not the point anyway. The point is to make ike uncomfortable being where he is. Better even, is to create a situation where you're "obviously" just going to throw fireballs. Giving you the upper hand, because you have the element of suprise when you don't "obviously" spam away.

So "well you can't just sit there and spam fireballs", well, sure you can.

 

[HeroMystic]

Luigi is up on the Ike match-up boards now. A few things first:

-We don't fully rely on theorycrafting. If it has worked for you, then bring it up. The match-up guide on the Ike boards is focused on how to win. Therefore "things that have worked" should be brought up.

-Refrain from bringing up ratios unless you feel it's necessary. We don't really care about that stuff, and I'm sure you guys don't either.

-We've start off on the wrong foot here. Let's just start this from scratch and pretend this thread never happened. Lets keep this discussion healthy and polite.

 

[Kinzer]

*Taking consideration into what Hero said*

...Where am I...who are you people...GET OUT OF MY HOUSE!!!

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

ok. ike vrs luigi.


ike vrs luigi is much like ddd crs luigi.

one grab and thats the stock pretty much.

luigi grabs ike and that can do one fo 2 thing.

pop jim into the air. once this happens luigi has his way with ike, a few up airs or any ariel really ill ahppene before iek can even get a bair out. this can get good preceantage on ike,

or. if you are near the edge. a forward throw or back throw puts ike in a posistion where he needs to double jump in order to get into up b or side b recovery range,luigi is fast and a fair before or after the double jump will gimp ike. and luigi can always follow up with another ariel just to be safe. theres the stock. ive done this countless times on some good ike players.


Bair aproaching seems to work too if you control and space it properly


my opinion

Luigi 70
ike 30

>_>



Stop making Canadians look bad.



Anyway, 60-40 sounds fine. Maybe even 55-45.

 

[Kinzer]

Ignoring the numbers, most people are saying that it's either neutral or Ike with the slight advantage...if you want to prove otherwise, the matchup thread is stickied on the Ike boards...