Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[MonkUnit]

WI smash does not exist.

This is too true. There are what, like 15 people here?

OT: Technically, anything melee shouldn't be discussed in this topic. The topic was asking aobut the fact that a lack of true combos may or may not hurt brawl.

 

[Clel]

Many, if not most Melee players played quite a bit of Brawl when it first came out, due to the insane amount of hype associated with it. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Melee player who doesn't own, or at one point owned, a copy of Brawl.

It's safe to say that most Melee players have rejected Brawl due to their own experiences with it. You can't say the same about Brawl players; many of them have not played Melee at all, and most have not played Melee at a competitive level.

Wait but you missed that I'm asking if they play it at a competitive level, not if they played it at all. And if they're playing it currently at a competitive level O.o

Uh oh, it's the next part of the post! Could it be? Fun time with insults? Oh snaps!

Nah jk I'm not stooping to that level =)

OOO JK AGAIN THAT WAS AN INSULT GTFO SCRUBS!!!

 

[Scufo]

K. Melee players still have more experience with Brawl than Brawl players have with Melee.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This is too true. There are what, like 15 people here?

Everyone is up north, I think Eau Claire has a bunch of smashers but only YoshQ and Loki actually travel up there.

There are people in the Fox Cities but only a few again travel.

Only people who do are the few in Madison, some in Milwaukee, Wisconsin used to be better but the only tournaments that can get hosted are in Racine, and still only 7-8 people show up for smash.

OT: Technically, anything melee shouldn't be discussed in this topic. The topic was asking aobut the fact that a lack of true combos may or may not hurt brawl.

I disagree.

Combos seem to be the main focus of the fact Brawl having less, saying none is being ignorant, does hurt it. Melee is used as a reference point to, "what is good and bad about it."

And at this point this thread turned into Brawl vs Melee, a topic I don't care about more so the fact people are spouting BS whenever talking about it.

K. Melee players still have more experience with Brawl than Brawl players have with Melee.

And yet they seem to be just as clueless if not more as to how things in the game work. I bring up anything about Lucario, Sonic and other character and they spout BS like, "Spin dash combos should never work on top tiers"

Gee I guess the people at MLG Dallas weren't abusing these great fail safes that makes spin dash combos and set-ups not work, am I right?

 

[Gatlin]

I really don't see the point in arguing about which is "better" because (sorry to continue the broken record) but it is, purely, based on opinion and preference. People prefer different things in terms of what they are looking for in a game. If you like playing the oh-so-much-faster Melee, then cool, play it instead of wasting time trying to persuade people to go by your opinion as if it is a fact.

 

[Clel]

On tonight's episode of "pointless arguing" with Tom and Bob

The quote in discussion is:

K. Melee players still have more experience with Brawl than Brawl players have with Melee.

So what do we have here?

I don't know Bob, but it looks to be a statement of some sort.

But there's no proof to back that up Tom!

Exactly, and even if it were true it's not a major point that'd prove melee > brawl

Thus we confirm - it's pointless arguing.

And that's all we have for today folks else we'd consider Gatlin's post that this entire debate is opinionated and pointless.

Who cares it's a battle of pride now! All pacifists GTFO or enjoy the show!

 

[King Funk]

Close this. It's ********.

 

[Clel]

No! Melee has to win this argument! Hurry up! Somebody come in and explain that Brawl is trash in good detail, then we can close it up so the brawlers can't respond!!

 

[Mr. Doom]

Haha. This thread is funny. I personally don't think this lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl.

I'm out.

 

[Scufo]

It's been done many times. Some Brawl players will admit that Melee is the deeper and more technical competitive fighter while continuing to prefer Brawl (which is fine), while others will delude themselves into thinking Brawl is somehow just as deep as Melee, despite the fact that it was intentionally dumbed down in an attempt to make it more accessible.

 

[Hydro_Smasher]

Personally, I think to combo in brawl, you need to be fast. and to be fast you need special techniques. and without those techniques, and comboes that would have made brawl entertaining, I think melee is better, just because it suits what I want to do more.

If you "combo" in brawl, and feel achieved, then, thats cool.

 

[Phoxhound]

People only say the lack of combos hurt Brawl because they expected the game to be more similar to Melee than it actually was. This is Brawl, not Melee, guys. It is its own game.

I personally like the defensive style of Brawl. It's nice, different, and refreshing.

sums up my opinion...I think brawl just wasn't intended to be played the same way as melee, and I really wish people would accept it as something different and stop the moronic youtube flame wars.

as I see it the lack of "true combos" just makes brawl different than other fighting games.

 

[Gatlin]

sums up my opinion...I think brawl just wasn't intended to be played the same way as melee

It wasn't, Sakurai decided to take a new direction with Brawl, he didn't want it to be the same as Melee. I won't go into too much detail, but you can read about it here.

 

[Revven]

Yeah he wanted it to be different so everybody could win! He didn't want anything to become competitive but it does anyway. His philosophy and ideas are what a lot of players disagree with and more importantly, the way he so called "balanced" the game is what turns many people off from playing it once they delve into it further.

Everything about the game is anti-competitive, but what's even funnier to me is that he's so hypocritical too at times. Like, he takes something out like nontumble DI (which is what makes 99% of the dumb **** that exists in Brawl work) as well as something as trivial as crouch canceling your run (you know you run and crouch to cancel the run and do something like a down smash or down tilt) and yet has something like Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash intentionally coded into the game. It just baffles me what went through his mind when he was making this game. While there are a good majority of players that enjoy this game, I'm not one of them for more reasons than I can count and that playing Brawl is basically supporting his philosophy of "everybody wins" or "accessibility > competition". And of course I don't generally like the gameplay but you get the point I'm making by now right?

This thread is still dumb though and should be locked by now, I don't see why it hasn't yet other than "it's funny discussion let it keep going so people can continue to make themselves look stupid and angry lols".

 

[SmashChu]

Yeah he wanted it to be different so everybody could win! He didn't want anything to become competitive but it does anyway. His philosophy and ideas are what a lot of players disagree with and more importantly, the way he so called "balanced" the game is what turns many people off from playing it once they delve into it further.

Everything about the game is anti-competitive, but what's even funnier to me is that he's so hypocritical too at times. Like, he takes something out like nontumble DI (which is what makes 99% of the dumb **** that exists in Brawl work) as well as something as trivial as crouch canceling your run (you know you run and crouch to cancel the run and do something like a down smash or down tilt) and yet has something like Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash intentionally coded into the game. It just baffles me what went through his mind when he was making this game. While there are a good majority of players that enjoy this game, I'm not one of them for more reasons than I can count and that playing Brawl is basically supporting his philosophy of "everybody wins" or "accessibility > competition". And of course I don't generally like the gameplay but you get the point I'm making by now right?.

I'll tell you.

He, being a free lance developer, wanted to best serve his client, Nintendo. The best way to do that was to make a game that would make the company lots of money which would help his career as he can put it as a credential, make money and get more jobs. So, in order to make more money, he needed to reach new people. So he made a game that was easier to get into. And it worked. The game has sold 10 million copies and Nintendo hired him again to make Kid Icarus.

Funny thing is, these developers are trying to make money, and they do that by reaching as many people as they can. In the end, the game becomes more accessible to new players and tournament players hate it because it means the game is less technically. Also see: Starcraft 2.

 

[Scufo]

^Actually the only stuff that Blizz made easier in SC2 was the stuff they absolutely HAD to change to avoid criticism that they never advanced past the technology of 1998. It's still a really, really hard game and has a thriving competitive community. Starcraft 1 diehards exist, but "SC1 vs. SC2" basically doesn't exist compared to Brawl vs Melee.

And the actual gameplay of Brawl had very little to do with its sales.

 

[Pogogo]

The argument is like "brawl is worse because...", "thats an opinion how can u be such an ***"

 

[SmashChu]

^Actually the only stuff that Blizz made easier in SC2 was the stuff they absolutely HAD to change to avoid criticism that they never advanced past the technology of 1998. It's still a really, really hard game and has a thriving competitive community. Starcraft 1 diehards exist, but "SC1 vs. SC2" basically doesn't exist compared to Brawl vs Melee.

Hardcore players whined A LOT over it. Team Liquid was ballistic. You could say the same thing for wavedashing and L canceling.

And the actual gameplay of Brawl had very little to do with its sales.

Ok, prove it.

 

[Scufo]

Hardcore players whined A LOT over it. Team Liquid was ballistic. You could say the same thing for wavedashing and L canceling.

Pre-release, maybe. People voiced concerns over things like multiple building selection and smart casting. But by the time the Beta came around these concerns were silenced. Sure, some aspects of the game are easier. For example, unit pathing isn't ******** so you don't have a click a million times to get them to go where you want. But Blizz actually added elements that make the game harder. Each race has a "macro mechanic", which is one extra thing to keep up on, and is almost an arbitrary skill barrier (although there are sometimes advantages to not doing it, so not quite).

Or if you don't feel like reading that, Blizzard designed Starcraft 2 as an E-sport. Sakurai intentionally made Brawl anti-competitive. The two games really aren't similar at all.

Ok, prove it.

Pretty sure I can't objectively prove it.

I feel Brawl sold almost entirely on hype. Everyone who even remotely enjoyed Melee bought Brawl.

Adjusted for console sales, both Melee and Brawl sold out the wazoo. I know you're going to tell me that Melee was the worst selling Smash game in Japan, but overall it was a huge, HUGE seller. Best seller on Gamecube. Its sales were only really limited by the (relatively) small number of 'Cubes in circulation.

Brawl would have sold just as well if the gameplay was untouched. Can I prove it? Nope. That's not the way it went. I still maintain that Melee was perfectly accessible as it was.

 

[Revven]

Blah blah blah sales argument blah blah blah compare to a different game of another genre by a company that has different beliefs and so forth than Nintendo blah blah blah BLAH

That's all you do and all you come up with and that's all this thread devolves to once someone like me says Sakurai has a silly idea on how his games should be made. I know it's a business, but the only reason Nintendo is where it is now is because of us. That's all that needs to be said.

Edit: It's a repetitive argument and doesn't change how either side feels so just get this thread locked already.

 

[SmashChu]

That's all you do and all you come up with and that's all this thread devolves to once someone like me says Sakurai has a silly idea on how his games should be made. I know it's a business, but the only reason Nintendo is where it is now is because of us. That's all that needs to be said.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
ha.........ha...ah

Yes, Nintendo is only doing well because of the less then 100,000 people on Smashboards (if that). Not because they looked past the norm and sold to people outside the normal market.

Pre-release, maybe. People voiced concerns over things like multiple building selection and smart casting. But by the time the Beta came around these concerns were silenced. Sure, some aspects of the game are easier. For example, unit pathing isn't ******** so you don't have a click a million times to get them to go where you want. But Blizz actually added elements that make the game harder. Each race has a "macro mechanic", which is one extra thing to keep up on, and is almost an arbitrary skill barrier (although there are sometimes advantages to not doing it, so not quite).

The complaints people had never got fixed. You could still have more than 12 units in a group and there was a lot less tedious micro. That never changed. The difference is those players kept playing the game.

Or if you don't feel like reading that, Blizzard designed Starcraft 2 as an E-sport. Sakurai intentionally made Brawl anti-competitive. The two games really aren't similar at all.

Blizzard did not design the game as an E-sport. Most people who play Starcraft 2 don't play the ladder. They made a great game. That is what Blizzard does. Also, Blizzard does not target the highest tier players. They never have (see Starcraft 1 and World of Warcraft).

Pretty sure I can't objectively prove it.

I feel Brawl sold almost entirely on hype. Everyone who even remotely enjoyed Melee bought Brawl.

Adjusted for console sales, both Melee and Brawl sold out the wazoo. I know you're going to tell me that Melee was the worst selling Smash game in Japan, but overall it was a huge, HUGE seller. Best seller on Gamecube. Its sales were only really limited by the (relatively) small number of 'Cubes in circulation.

Brawl would have sold just as well if the gameplay was untouched. Can I prove it? Nope. That's not the way it went. I still maintain that Melee was perfectly accessible as it was.

Incorrect.

Melee sold less than 64. Why would Brawl go up if it copied Melee.

You may say "But the Wii sold more, so Brawl sold more." That correlation has never worked because games sell systems, not the other way around. People buy Wii for Smash. And Brawl is the best selling game of the series in Japan. This means players who have never played 64 or Melee played and bought Brawl. Also, 40 % of it's sales were after the 10th week. If the game was bad and sold on hype, then why didn't sales plummet?

Your arguments are inconsistent with what the market showed. So, it's more likely to think that Brawl was better designed to get more people to play it, such as being more accessible.

Sales Data

 

[KingClubber]

I have an few Question for the core brawl players... How does Brawl disappoint you? What is this game missing?, and how would you make brawl better?

 

[Scufo]

...Except that Melee sold more than SSB64 by a large margin. 7.09 million to 4.9 million. Japan isn't the only market that matters.

And then, Brawl sold more than Melee. All I'm seeing is an overall upward trend as the series goes on. Increased accessibility is not the only factor at work here, and I'm not even convinced it's an important factor.

I could say that the increased sales from one game to the next is due to the increased amount of content in each game, and there's nothing to make that argument any less legitimate than your accessibility argument.

All I'm gonna say on Starcraft is that its thriving competitive scene is indicative of its design as a competitive game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think I'm just gonna let it out.

See, the problem I have with Melee is while it shows technicality it's trying to send the message that it can do it while outsourcing everyone else. That adding things like L canceling for the purpose of just being a technical barrier is ok to add to a game. I hate things like this, I don't expect a game to be as easy a a sesame street game or something like that but I don't like playing a game that forces technical barriers just to be technical barriers. Make things over complicated for no reason other than to be complected. Being complected for the sake of being complected is not depth to me at all when choice in many cases, pointing at L canceling, is a no brainer where people would never say no to doing an L cancel.

Everyone wins does not happen in competitive play at all, the game is not random or force the worse player to lose when set up, because if people go for that turn all items on in melee and see what happens when Armada plays M2K. You have to balance accessibility and competition, I don't think I've ever played anything that I felt like ti did it perfectly, then again I don't think I ever will.

I see people complain about auto canceling, grabbing the ledge backwards or a little distance away, no one cares if a minority hates it people actually like these additions even on the competitive level. I've tried getting it hosted at casual library tournaments or even with some of my friends. No one wants to play it because they had trouble playing it at first. When they played against people who knew what they were doing they were not having fun at all. I let them play Brawl, they enjoy the game a lot more and had fun playing it.

Even more so they wanted to comeback for it, where as the next event I helped host I dropped melee because no one wanted to play it. You can say they are just casuals, you need to get people the steps of casual -> competitive. This is what Sakurai was talking about and something I have experienced first hand. Maybe back in 2001 or later he could get away with this and people would try and be competitive, but nowadays when people know that you can make game play simpler in aspects and this is what gamers want nowadays.

This is something a lot of the Brawl hack people and Melee people don't understand, for the hack community they seem to think that why didn't Sakurai aim it at them and make a game at the competitive audience. For Melee they wanted the technical aspects that melee gave with it's speed.

People forget that Smash Bros. was deigned to be original, a response to the fighting game community because fighting games typically do not sell well. Smash offers simplistic controls with great multi player options, including stages choice that matters, items to help enhance gameplay when playing multiplayer, settings to change it, etc. He knows what people don't like and knows not to repeat it and how to change it for the better.

Melee was loved for vastly improving the original, and the competitive community loves the speed when they play it, wanna know what the game was heavily criticized for?

It's speed and hyper sensitive nature.

People did not like how fast it was, many people found it as a turn off from melee. Hackers don;t get this because they aren't selling the game they are making but rather making it for a selective audience, this is exactly what Project M is a remake of brawl for the melee community. They are not making money off of Project M, if they are it is blatant copy right infringement and therefore illegal.

Melee players hate it because they hate that what they like is what many people who bought the game found bad, like many many critics said. Maybe for a competitive player, including myself who plays melee as well, we don't get this because we learned how to deal with Melee's speed.

Wanna know why Brawl was slowed down, probably because that was the main thing people disliked about Melee.

Smash is being sold as an accessible fighter for people from both competitive and causal to enjoy. You can claim that casuals also enjoyed Melee, and you are correct, but saying that Brawl making it more accessible was a bad thing is being horribly near sighted. I can at least get more people to play it now than I could with Melee.

I do like Smash more than any other series of fighting games, but saying that I enjoy Melee being complected and forcing tech heavy environments just to be tech heavy rather than to be good for everyone is dumb to me.

Personal rant, but one I openly admit. I can see this from both sides and do prefer Brawl over Melee and this rant was targeted more so at the groups I have the most qualms with. But people on both sides need to get their heads out of their ***** and start seeing things from other perspectives.

Because quite frankly people are being extremely closed minded about both communities due to personal tastes.

People need to stop with the anti-competitive garbage just like people should stop with the melee is mashing your head on a controller and spamming techs just to do it.

I still love this community though, even if people don't accept each other for liking a game over another.

 

[Big-Cat]

I approve of this post.

Also, there are ways to make things more accessible AND increase depth. One of my favorite ideas is the mechanic to just turn around in mid-air. Grab the edge from behind and increase the mix-up game.

 

[Gatlin]

I'm fine with open discussion about which game people prefer, I just really don't like it when people try to act elitist about which game is better, when "better" doesn't even exist. Better according to who? An opinion or preference does not make proof of the better game, much like me saying I like one band over another does not determine the better band, because there will always be someone who prefers the opposite. I also don't like when people try to hammer their opinion into my head as a way of persuasion to switch games. It is useless doing so, and this argument just bounces back and forth with no score. People already have set in their mind which game they play, which game they like, which game they prefer to play, and how they play that game. The chances of them switching, not very high.

Good read Red Ryu, I agree with all of it, but I fear a lot of people won't.

 

[Strong Badam]

Ok, prove it.

This coming from the kid who constantly said "It's my opinion! It can't be wrong!" whenever his arguments were refuted.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's hard for Brawl players to talk about how terrible Melee is because 1.) it is not terrible and 2.) they have never played melee competitively, so how would they know?

Also, A LOT of Brawl players like to imply the Melee is simply mashing buttons and automatic combos, and less thinking (my personal favorite).

Oh, you want legitimate critique? Fine, I'll give you legitimate critique against melee as a game.

1. L-cancelling. It's pointless tech skill for tech skill's sake. Lousy game design.
2. Its balance is ****ty. In brawl, you get people all the way down to D and E tier doing well in tournaments. San, Reflex, Shaky, Ravenlord... hell, two sonic mains hit top 8 at MLG Dallas! In Melee... Maybe the occasional CF or Peach. Almost never a doc or ICs. That's... what, 5 characters who actually ever win anything? 7 characters who fare even remotely well in tournaments? Plus, let's not forget sheik, a character who ****s on low tiers in a way that Metaknight would drool about. Brawl is way more balanced than melee. Remove metaknight from the equation, and this becomes not just obvious, but ridiculously blatantly obvious. A mid/low tier in Melee has about as much chance of winning a tournament as Ganondorf and Zelda in brawl; a mid-low tier in Brawl just got two top spots at a huge national and took away a total of $1,100.
3. It's extremely inaccessible. Ties in with 1. The barrier to just get to the very lowest level of competitive play is ridiculously high. You HAVE to learn how to L-cancel. You HAVE to know far more than the basics. It is, quite frankly, ridiculous how high the entry barrier is. And it's not like brawl, where if you lose against someone who is at a medium-low level, you are fighting a battle of wits. In melee, if you're a low level player trying to get into the game and play against someone remotely versed in it, you will get completely distroyed and outsped, and you will grow a resentment towards a game which is incredibly difficult to get into.
4. Its community is apparently filled with arrogant douchebags. Maybe it's different in the states, but judging from what RR has to say? I doubt it. Virtually every single member of the german melee community who doesn't also play brawl is a gigantic douchebag. They have their own elitist club and will insult brawlers whenever the find the opportunity. The brawl community is far more accepting. Maybe because melee is better, or maybe because we don't feel the need to reinforce our overblown, gigantic egos by putting down those who don't play our game constantly. I'm not sure.

Yeah, Imad.

 

[KingClubber]

i can agree with most of it, but i get an different response for different smash games.

Imma use my lil bro for this, im sure he won't mind. ^_^

Okay, he grew up playing Melee, and is easily the best 12 year old player "I Know" but to me he sucks, i can 4 stock him no problem mind you his best character is luigi, and my main before i drop him was Falco.

Once brawl came out he mained Lucas, and this was no longer possible. i could only 2/3 out of 4 stock him.

Him being every good an evasion was given a 1up with multi-air dodging.

He personally like brawl better because it's easier for him, and he doesn't have to worry about me ruining his life (as long as I'm not playing with Sonic), because i can't 0 to death him anymore.

But he likes the fast pace of melee.

I myself love melee as well but it's things about the smash series i loved more, such as the play style of Kirby, and Link from 64, Ganon, and Falco from Melee.

Brawl isn't an bad game, im just saying it could be better, a lot better. To tell you the truth if only the hitstun was like 64, i think i would have loved brawl even more then melee because i would have felt like they we're going back to they roots.

 

[Strong Badam]

1. fair enough.
2. Except players like Axe, Taj, Gimpyfish, Bum, Shroomed, The Germ, etc. have all done well with low-tiers in the past. Hint: just because people don't place with a character doesn't mean that a character isn't viable; it means that the player isn't.
3. Yeah, a vocal minority of both Brawl & Melee communities seem to make us all seem like that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, you want legitimate critique? Fine, I'll give you legitimate critique against melee as a game.

This'll be interesting.

1. L-Cancelling

I'm fine with this.

2. Balance

This is just... wrong. Compare the results of recent majors in both games and you'll notice how similar they are in terms of balance, considering the lower number of characters in Melee.

3. Inaccessible

Low level Melee isn't hard to get into unless you were raised on a diet of Wii Sports. Wave-dashing is easy, L-Cancelling is easy, SHFFL'ing aerials is easy. A lot of characters don't even need these advanced techniques to do well in low level play, like Peach, Marth, Sheik and Jigglypuff.

4. Community

Basing an entire community off of a small sub-set of players is an amateur mistake. I'm disappointed in you, BPC.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Maybe we have a different opinion on what counts as low level? Ever think of that?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's generally considered Mid-Level play, Theo. Being able to consistently do everything but not make all the right decisions.

Low level play is more like players who know the basics of the game at a competitive level, they can do some advanced techniques, but don't know how to apply any of their skills really, they are generally also predictable.

 

[SmashChu]

...Except that Melee sold more than SSB64 by a large margin. 7.09 million to 4.9 million. Japan isn't the only market that matters.

And then, Brawl sold more than Melee. All I'm seeing is an overall upward trend as the series goes on. Increased accessibility is not the only factor at work here, and I'm not even convinced it's an important factor.

I could say that the increased sales from one game to the next is due to the increased amount of content in each game, and there's nothing to make that argument any less legitimate than your accessibility argument.

All I'm gonna say on Starcraft is that its thriving competitive scene is indicative of its design as a competitive game.

Melee had an explosion of content, but the game did worse then 64 in Japan. Even though there was an increase in sales between the two games worldwide, Japan declined. This could be pointing to a possible trend. Sakurai also lives and works in Japan and likely saw the problems people have with the game.

Brawl brought back people who left after 64. More content doesn't explain it because Melee had more content than 64. Accessibility is the better answer.

As for Starcraft, it was not designed as a competitive game because Blizzard doesn't do it, not even with the first game. They also had things like campaigns and custome games, and most people don't play the ladder.

This coming from the kid who constantly said "It's my opinion! It can't be wrong!" whenever his arguments were refuted.

Dont you love that ad hominem

 

[flyinfilipino]

Dont you love that ad hominem

Well, can you 'prove' that Brawl's high sales figures are mostly due to changes in gameplay from previous games?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This'll be interesting.



I'm fine with this.



This is just... wrong. Compare the results of recent majors in both games and you'll notice how similar they are in terms of balance, considering the lower number of characters in Melee.

Seriously? You guys have one mewtwo, one pikachu, and one bowser, none of which I've heard particularly much about recently, and those are pretty much the only "low tier" mains who make a splash. Then there's Kage, some Doc player, and... uh... "In the past" doesn't count. Modern metagame does. Virtually all known melee players main high/top tiers. Virtually all national-level tournaments are won and placed almost exclusively by high and top tiers. Go on, gimme some recent results. Prove me wrong that melee is less balanced and I'll drop this point.

Low level Melee isn't hard to get into unless you were raised on a diet of Wii Sports. Wave-dashing is easy, L-Cancelling is easy, SHFFL'ing aerials is easy.

No, maybe, and no. For the record, I literally cannot even FHBair with jiggs. Seriously. Even the most trivial actions are made ridiculously hard due to the lack of a buffer. The game has a RIDICULOUS entry level.

A lot of characters don't even need these advanced techniques to do well in low level play, like Peach, Marth, Sheik and Jigglypuff.

Maybe Sheik. Doubt it for the others.

Basing an entire community off of a small sub-set of players is an amateur mistake. I'm disappointed in you, BPC.

"Small Subset"? You mean every active melee player on German Smash who doesn't also play brawl? And every Melee player I've ever seen posting in these areas who doesn't play brawl? Small subset is one thing, but this is something else. And it's not just me, either. I'm not running into a bunch of melee players that don't like me, brawl players everywhere are running into melee players who will diss them and their game because of their overblown egos.

 

[OkamiBW]

grabbing the ledge backwards

I don't have time to respond to all of your guys' things, though I read them all. Just wanted to respond to this.

Grabbing the ledge backwards takes away options. Imagine on Yoshi's Story (Melee) when you drop off a platform and want to wall jump without using your double jump. Okay...and...here we go...ready to wall jump?...grab the ledge.

Wheeeee! Less options! ^^

Also, this is just me, but it is quite silly not being able to get off the edge right away after you grab the edge in Brawl. I mean...I know the game's supposed to be slow...but seriously?

P.S. To all Melee players who think Brawl is as deep as a puddle (or more shallow). Brawl players know their game is not Melee. They know that all of the competitive greatness of Melee is not in Brawl. But keep in mind that some Brawl players like specific aspects of the game that you simply can't argue about. For example, Yoshi doesn't have DJC'ing, so he rises like crazy while being able to do a Nair. Or his egg throw upward movement. Or new characters. Or new stages. Just because Brawl isn't as good or as competitive as Melee doesn't mean they can't like the game for other reasons and still play it competitively.*
*Note: This is to Melee players. Brawl players please ignore this.

Note 2: I love using BB code.

 

[Sliq]

No, there isn't because it's an OPINION.

a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

So what, you can't respect my opinion that I like Vanilla ice cream. Am I arrogant and misinformed for liking Vanilla. I must be so ignorant.

Again, no one cares if you don't like Brawl. My question is why are you still posting on the Brawl boards.

UNSUPPORTED OPINION

I can post links too! Hurray!

The argument isn't that you like Vanilla ice cream. The argument is that Vanilla is the best flavor without ever tasting the other flavors.

Also, people DO care, even if it is a little. And I'm posting because I'm on lunch break and already ran out of information to take in from my other lunch break websites.

When you insult the Brawl community with ignorant claims, it's hard not to expect ignorant claims from the other side on Melee. =S

Whatever, I play all three smash games and love everyone. <3

My claims are not ignorant, as I played Brawl for somewhere around 2 years, as well as melee for around 3.

GOML

Oh, you want legitimate critique? Fine, I'll give you legitimate critique against melee as a game.

1. L-cancelling. It's pointless tech skill for tech skill's sake. Lousy game design.

Sure. However, if aerials automatically l canceled in Melee, Fox would be stupid broken. In the end it may be an "unnecessary" technical barrier, it did balance out a lot of nonsense that could have happened. It is an arbitrary test of skill, but a test of skill nonetheless.

2. Its balance is ****ty. In brawl, you get people all the way down to D and E tier doing well in tournaments. San, Reflex, Shaky, Ravenlord... hell, two sonic mains hit top 8 at MLG Dallas! In Melee... Maybe the occasional CF or Peach. Almost never a doc or ICs. That's... what, 5 characters who actually ever win anything? 7 characters who fare even remotely well in tournaments? Plus, let's not forget sheik, a character who ****s on low tiers in a way that Metaknight would drool about. Brawl is way more balanced than melee. Remove metaknight from the equation, and this becomes not just obvious, but ridiculously blatantly obvious. A mid/low tier in Melee has about as much chance of winning a tournament as Ganondorf and Zelda in brawl; a mid-low tier in Brawl just got two top spots at a huge national and took away a total of $1,100.

You provide no evidence. You would need to compare tournament results from both games, and base the results on PERCENTAGE of characters used, considering Melee has significantly less characters. I have a feeling they would be rather close in terms of placement and character choice.

3. It's extremely inaccessible. Ties in with 1. The barrier to just get to the very lowest level of competitive play is ridiculously high. You HAVE to learn how to L-cancel. You HAVE to know far more than the basics. It is, quite frankly, ridiculous how high the entry barrier is. And it's not like brawl, where if you lose against someone who is at a medium-low level, you are fighting a battle of wits. In melee, if you're a low level player trying to get into the game and play against someone remotely versed in it, you will get completely distroyed and outsped, and you will grow a resentment towards a game which is incredibly difficult to get into.

So your argument is that it takes time and effort to develop skill in Melee, which is unfavorable to you?

So I guess you are implying that Brawl doesn't take effort or time, or at least a lot of effort or time. Yeah, I'll spend my time learning something somewhat difficult so there is an actual sense of accomplishment.

In competition, there should be a notable gap in skill between players, otherwise the competition will be boring. The deeper the competition, the more intense it is for the competitors. If I win a match in Melee it's great. If I win rock paper scissors, who cares?

If Brawl does that for you, then fine. But people are putting YEARS into this game. I don't get why you wouldn't just invest THAT MUCH TIME in a much deeper competition, whether it be gaming or not.

From a non-competitive aspect, both games are equally accessible as their control schemes are NEARLY IDENTICAL.

4. Its community is apparently filled with arrogant douchebags. Maybe it's different in the states, but judging from what RR has to say? I doubt it. Virtually every single member of the german melee community who doesn't also play brawl is a gigantic douchebag. They have their own elitist club and will insult brawlers whenever the find the opportunity. The brawl community is far more accepting. Maybe because melee is better, or maybe because we don't feel the need to reinforce our overblown, gigantic egos by putting down those who don't play our game constantly. I'm not sure.

Before Brawl came out, there wasn't hardly any negativity. Also, the Brawl community is just as bad as the Melee community. The Brawl community isn't this meek boy scout who helps old ladies across streets and get's picked on by mean ol' Melee.

Yeah, Imad.

Clearly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't have time to respond to all of your guys' things, though I read them all. Just wanted to respond to this.

Grabbing the ledge backwards takes away options. Imagine on Yoshi's Story (Melee) when you drop off a platform and want to wall jump without using your double jump. Okay...and...here we go...ready to wall jump?...grab the ledge.

Wheeeee! Less options! ^^

Also, this is just me, but it is quite silly not being able to get off the edge right away after you grab the edge in Brawl. I mean...I know the game's supposed to be slow...but seriously?

If you space it correctly and do it during the first frames of dropping off you can wall jump in Brawl and not grab the ledge, I do this as a mix-up with Lucario to so ledge jumped Bairs on Yoshi Island (Brawl), Frigate Orphan, and in some cases FD. You just gotta know how the game works. Heck you can even get nicely spaced Uairs by doing this with him.

As long as your not tether character with a Zair like Link, Toon Link or Samus, because of their Zair they can regrab the ledge on frame 1, or Pikachu who has notable less frames he has to stay on the ledge.

You can wall jump without grabbing the ledge.

@people talking about results: I posted long ago about Results. Let me re post it again.

MLG Dallas:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=290675&highlight=APEX+results

Singles Results (182 Entrants, $35,000 in Prizes)
Championship Bracket Results
1st (9) Gnes -Diddy Kong - $12,500
2nd (3) TyRaNt - Meta Knight - $7,500
3rd (2) ESAM - Pikachu - $5,000
4th (1) Ally - Snake - $3,500
5th (11) Espy - Sonic - $2,500
6th (12) _X_ - Sonic - $1,750
7th (4) LeeMartin - Meta Knight/Lucario - $1,250
8th (7) Atomsk92 - King Dedede/Ice Climbers/Meta Knight$1,000
9th (14) mikeHAZE - Marth
10th (15) -Dojo- - Meta Knight
11th (13) DEHF - Falco
12th (16) Mjg7tlink - Toon Link
13th (6) RichBrown - Olimar
14th (5) NickRiddle - Zero Suit Samus
15th (8) FatalMatt - Snake
16th (10) logic- - Olimar

APEX:

BRAWL SINGLES:

1st - DEHF (Falco)
2nd - Brood (Olimar)
3rd - Mew2King (Meta Knight)
4th - Lee Martin (Lucario/MK)
5th - Ally (Snake)
6th - Lain (Ice Climbers)
7th - Atomsk (Ice Climbers/D3/Wario)
8th - Rain (Falco/MK)
9th - Anti (MK)
9th - Shadow (MK)
9th - Shugo (Falco/MK)
9th - San (Ike)
13th - Gnes (Diddy)
13th - Malcolm (Wario)
13th - Inui (MK)
13th - SweetPea (D3)
17th - ChuDat (Kirby)
17th - UltimateRazor (Snake)
17th - Vex Kasrani (D3)
17th - Jerm (Toon Link)
17th - Doom (MK)
17th - Bizkit (Snake)
17th - Ninjalink (Ice Climbers/ROB/Diddy)
17th - Earth (?)
25th - Logic (Olimar)
25th - Blue Rogue (Wario)
25th - PatG (Lucario/ZSS)
25th - HolyNightmare (ROB/MK)
25th - Swordgard (Ice Climbers)
25th - Nairo (MK)
25th - SK92 (Falco)
25th - Jash (Toon Link)
33rd - Vinnie (Game and Watch)
33rd - Squall (Snake)
33rd - vVv Fino (Olimar)
33rd - Bloodcross (Falco)
33rd - Snakeee (Zero Suit Samus)
33rd - Mintyflesh (MK)
33rd - Speed (Sonic)
33rd - Kel (MK)
33rd - Jtails (MK)
33rd - CO18 (D3)
33rd - Eggz (?)
33rd - Keitaro (Falco)
33rd - Cable (Donkey Kong)
33rd - Junebug (Lucario/Donkey Kong)
33rd - Koolaid (Snake)
33rd - Bill_ (?)
49th - Suinoko (Pokemon Trainer?)
49th - Dr. Grandpa (Donkey Kong?)
49th - Boss (Luigi/Mario)
49th - DeltaCOD (Pokemon Trainer)
49th - Chaos Marth (Marth?)
49th - Jbandrew (D3)
49th - Big Lou (Luigi)
49th - Fujita (?)
49th - Will (Donkey Kong)
49th - TUSM (?)
49th - Orion (MK)
49th - Trela (Lucario)
49th - TeeVee (ROB)
49th - Zucco (Lucario)
49th - Coney (D3)
49th - (no one, M2K had a bye)

MLG Raleigh:

Singles Results (148 Entrants, $7,000 in Prizes)
1: Mew2King (MW)- Meta Knight - $2,500
2: LeeMartin (S) - Toon Link/Meta Knight/Lucario - $1,500
3: Felix (WC) - Diddy Kong - $1,000
4: Seibrik (S)- Meta Knight - $700
5: NickRiddle (S) - Zero Suit Samus - $500
6: TyRaNt (WC)- Meta Knight - $350
7: DEHF (WC) - Falco - $250
8: Havok (WC)- Meta Knight/Marth - $200
9: ESAM (S) - Pikachu
10: Kel (MW) - Meta Knight
11: FatalMatt (EC) - Snake
12: NinjaLink (EC) - Diddy Kong/Ice Climbers
13: RichBrown (WC) - Olimar
14: Atomsk (EC) - Falco/Meta Knight/Ice Climbers
15: ch33s3 (EC) - Ice Climbers/Meta Knight
16: _choice_ (WC) - Falco/Wolf
17: Sky Hazuki (WC) - Wario
17: Ally (CAN) - Snake
17: CO18 (S) - King Dedede/Snake
17: Bizk1t (EC) - Snake
17: Big Lou (S) - Luigi
17: Will (EC) - Donkey Kong
17: Bloodcross (EC) - Falco/Meta Knight
17: Grimace (MW) - Snake
25: Kismit (S) - Falco
25: ADHD (EC) - Diddy Kong
25: Zex (WC) - Marth/Meta Knight
25: MikeHaze (WC) - Marth
25: MVD731 (S) - Snake
25: Reflex (S) - Pokemon Trainer/Sheik
25: Chaz (S) - Marth
25: Hunger (MW) - Wario
33: Fonz (MW) - Lucario
33: Xaltis (S) - Falco
33: only4GOD (S) - King Dedede
33: KirinBlaze (EC)- Link/Mario
33: Inui (EC) - Meta Knight
33: Stockfield (S) - ROB
33: Vinnie_C (EC) - Game & Watch/Ice Climbers
33: Kadaj (EC) - Marth/Meta Knight
33: Foxy_ (S) - Meta Knight/Donkey Kong
33: Stingers (S) - ROB
33: Zucco (EC) - Lucario
33: Micaelis (S) - Meta Knight/Donkey Kong
33: TuRtL (S) - Zero Suit Samus
33: Izumi (EC) - Meta Knight/Toon Link
33: Xzax (EC) - Falco/Meta Knight
33: Mister-Eric (MW) - ROB

MLG Columbus

Singles Results (250 Entrants, $7,000 in Prizes)
1: Mew2King (MW) - Meta Knight - $2,500
2: Ally (CAN)- Snake - $1,500
3: NickRiddle (SE)- Zero Suit Samus - $1,000
4: LeeMartin (SW)- Meta Knight/Lucario - $700
5: -Dojo- (SW) -Meta Knight - $500
6: Gnes (SW)- Diddy Kong - $350
7: Tearbear (?)- Meta Knight - $250
8: ESAM (SE)- Pikachu - $200
9: TyRaNt-WC (WC) - Meta Knight
10: Shaky3 (?) - Ness
11: San (EC) - Ike
12: Judge (MW) - Meta Knight
13: Seibrik (SE) - Meta Knight
14: _choice_ (?) - Wolf/Falco
15: Atomsk92 (EC) - Ice Climbers/Meta Knight/King Dedede
16: RichBrown (WC) - Olimar
17: theboss8 (EC) - Luigi/Mario
17: HavokZ (WC) - Meta Knight
17: CO18 (SE) - King Dedede
17: Shugo (MW) - Falco
17: Bizk1t (EC) - Snake
17: Will (EC) - Donkey Kong
17: DEHF (WC) - Falco
17: Ook (MW) - Donkey Kong
25: mikeHAZE (WC) - Marth
25: Blue_Rogue (MW) - Wario
25: grimacepok (MW) - Snake
25: Fino (MW) - Olimar
25: Jem. (WC) - Meta Knight
25: NinjaLink (EC) - Diddy Kong/Ice Climbers
25: TheLegendaryJash (EC) - Toon Link
25: Lain (MW) - Ice Climbers
33: MVD731 (?)
33: ch33s3 (EC) - Ice Climbers/Meta Knight/Donkey Kong
33: Fizzle_Boy (MW) - Lucario/King Dedede
33: Keitaro (EC) - Falco
33: junkk (?)
33: CONEYZZzzz (?) - King Dedede
33: t0mmy (WC) - R.O.B.
33: Sky Hazuki (WC) - Peach
33: meepxzero (EC) - Ice Climbers
33: Kel (MW) - Meta Knight
33: VexKasrani (EC) - King Dedede/Game & Watch/Snake
33: FatalMatt (EC) - Snake
33: hunger1455 (MW) - Wario
33: SteelSamurai7 (MW) - Marth
33: Quivo (MW) - Toon Link
33: InfernAngelis (MW) - Snake
49: DarkLouis
49: Mikey Lenetia - Peach
49: Seph
49: MalcolmM - Wario
49: Wakka - Diddy Kong
49: [Z]IKO
49: Big Lou - Luigi
49: Anther - Pikachu
49: Amazing Ampharos
49: Nope - Snake
49: KIDGoggles
49: Speed - Sonic
49: dextasmurf
49: ChiboSempai - R.O.B.
49: Kain - Wolf
49: Vinnie
65: Sumer
65: SneakyTako - R.O.B.
65: rolrctermaniac
65: nvh2pc
65: GIMR - Game & Watch
65: kirbycpok
65: RalphCecil
65: ArgentStew - Lucario
65: Arty - Falco
65: dj_iskascribble - Meta Knight
65: Sai90 - Diddy Kong
65: MX778
65: esojose - Diddy Kong
65: Krystedez - Wario
65: Dark 3nergy
65: Suyon - Pit
65: Mekos
65: xzax - Meta Knight
65: Ripple - Donkey Kong
65: MetalMusicMan
65: FuRyOf1000SuNs
65: Lie - Falco
65: Punishment Divine
65: asc853
65: -Hilt- - Olimar
65: Joey
65: Sago - Meta Knight
65: YoshQ
65: Tmacc
65: KirinBlaze
65: Pyronic Star - Olimar
65: pikapika - Pikachu
97: Ankoku - Sheik
97: Xyless
97: DSF
97: Acton182
97: Mothuzad
97: Nasty
97: solecalibur
97: Stealth_Raptor - Pikachu
97: DLA
97: ithrowthings - Sonic
97: King Beef - Peach
97: TheGreatMuldini7
97: Trent
97: cranz
97: jt5565
97: HeyItsYO
97: egosin33
97: Smash64 - Ness
97: cr4sh - Luigi
97: Allied
97: [GLASSJAW]
97: ScytheMagus
97: lukedu4
97: Watkins1247
97: Arc.Revived
97: sorasin
97: kingtoon
97: Fonz - Lucario
97: TakeYouDown
97: Silhouette - R.O.B.
97: Red_Ryu
97: stephaney
129: aposl
129: Sharky
129: Jiffyboob
129: BlaizeRaz0r
129: coswhite
129: Koojiboo
129: Mister-Eric - R.O.B.
129: Aeon v1
129: Mav
129: TheRealFatty
129: KassandraNova
129: circleguy
129: Bead
129: Xero_Levantine
129: VorpalLyric
129: Poe-
129: spongejordan123
129: Lumi
129: Champ - Falco
129: Auspher - Wolf
129: Chuee95
129: King0Gus
129: fzk_
129: TheBanhammer - Game & Watch
129: Eviltwin0688
129: TommyGreenShirt
129: Judo
129: SlaughterinStew
129: Riku
129: Legan - Link
129: Holmes
129: peep_rivers
129: T.K.O.
129: Twilight Prince
129: LK24
129: Blazing Katakiri
129: roflteedaniel
129: Y.b.M. - Kirby
129: GURU3LIVE
129: t1mmy - Meta Knight
129: friendlyhacker7
129: MulticolorShyGuy
129: King Yoshi - Pikachu
129: Colaya - track
129: Sovereign90
129: whitley79
129: bschung
129: Prizefighter_Inferno
129: downanda
129: Matser
129: XeroXen
129: Rathrn
129: clowsui - Falco
129: kamenriderw
129: Thinkaman
129: THE_SMILE
129: Noctournez
129: glove24
129: ADHD
129: Braggins
129: Dark-Kakashi
129: Xionix
129: Maverick5809
129: Phoenix2005
193: Duck131313
193: Higatron
193: Joshkipime
193: revrabies
193: Silenoz666
193: Ebo
193: FaTaL-ThUmBs
193: Framerate
193: Mudvayne91
193: calic.
193: distortlove
193: L-R-A-Start
193: Wafles_
193: poptartlovesyou
193: PositiveExternality
193: Machiave
193: Chaz
193: dj.asakura
193: cammjohn
193: Henry_H13
193: MysteriousSilver
193: AirborneReborne
193: Gumby2
193: yeti610
193: Boisfat
193: Snackk
193: Xyphercoop01
193: DuhZex
193: PharaohTPM
193: -Ensis-
193: Tutu_No.2
193: JTSM
193: Dalegendarysamus
193: BMX09
193: L_Cancel - Olimar
193: lou_4222 - Game & Watch
193: Ori_bro
193: FS_SlimJim
193: Today
193: CaptainPlatypus
193: Atopgun007
193: WhatsThePoint
193: insanedifficulty09
193: Sphere.
193: DrillbitSammy
193: Shadow_111
193: LoliLovesRain
193: bellboys6779
193: Calebyte
193: giobot
193: Nistacular
193: The_crum
193: Snakeee
193: RoyalTempest
193: SniperSnakeCQC
193: Lokeloki
193: HigherCalling
193: drj12

Apex 2010

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283374

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sure. However, if aerials automatically l canceled in Melee, Fox would be stupid broken. In the end it may be an "unnecessary" technical barrier, it did balance out a lot of nonsense that could have happened. It is an arbitrary test of skill, but a test of skill nonetheless.

Fair enough. My stance on arbitrary tech skill is known.

You provide no evidence. You would need to compare tournament results from both games, and base the results on PERCENTAGE of characters used, considering Melee has significantly less characters. I have a feeling they would be rather close in terms of placement and character choice.

RR just gave us brawl results. How about some recent melee results? Last 3 or 4 melee nationals, top 32 or so. I'm not about to go digging around the melee boards for them, when I see that it's basically all fox, jiggs, and peach in the vids.

Also, percentage doesn't matter. You're entirely wrong on that count.

To be clear, it doesn’t matter how many squares there are on the character select screen. Who cares whether five useless portraits remain in the game or fifty? Percentage-based breakdowns are meaningless. Only two factors count when considering balance: whether there are four or more characters in top tier, and whether the matchups between them measure up to our high standards. When either of these criteria ceases to be true, that’s when we should stop playing the game.

Why would it? Brawl is more balanced, with a more variable metagame. Doesn't matter if Melee has less unviable characters, it also has less viable characters. Which game is deeper and better for competition, the game with 4 evenly matched characters and no others, or the game with 5 evenly matched characters and 100 unviable ones?

So your argument is that it takes time and effort to develop skill in Melee, which is unfavorable to you?

So I guess you are implying that Brawl doesn't take effort or time, or at least a lot of effort or time. Yeah, I'll spend my time learning something somewhat difficult so there is an actual sense of accomplishment.

In competition, there should be a notable gap in skill between players, otherwise the competition will be boring. The deeper the competition, the more intense it is for the competitors. If I win a match in Melee it's great. If I win rock paper scissors, who cares?

If Brawl does that for you, then fine. But people are putting YEARS into this game. I don't get why you wouldn't just invest THAT MUCH TIME in a much deeper competition, whether it be gaming or not.

From a non-competitive aspect, both games are equally accessible as their control schemes are NEARLY IDENTICAL.

Way to completely misinterpret my argument. The difference between melee's learning curve and Brawl's learning curve is the jumpiness. Brawl is fairly linear; melee has a gigantic barrier near the beginning. Brawl is hard, but the difficulty doesn't have many large springs. You gradually get better and better. In melee, it's similar to that... once you reach a certain level. It's like comparing two graphs: f(x)=x (brawl) and f(x)=x+100 (melee). The skill level required still reaches towards infinity, but there's just this ridiculous jump near the beginning of melee. Is this bad for the competitive nature of the game? No, but it's lousy design because people who aren't already really into the game are going to be driven away by how ridiculously difficult it is! Even outside of competitive play, how easy it is to just flat-out kill yourself can't have avoided you. The game is ridiculously fast, and incredibly unforgiving, which inherently leads to a high curve starting out. Also, "nearly identical"? Smash's command scheme is very bizarre-I've struggled in explaining it to most of my friends ("no, upB is your third jump"). Add a ridiculously high speed and a very fast falling speed, plus really tiny ledgegrab ranges, and you have a murderous game on your hands. People don't like that. If you're into that, you're a minority figure. And simply put, "easy to learn, hard to master" sums up only 2 of the smash games-the other is "hard to learn, hard to master". Guess which is which.

Before Brawl came out, there wasn't hardly any negativity.

Who were you gonna hate on, street fighter? Guilty Gear (hey, at least they're on the same console)?

It doesn't matter. That negativity came from the melee community being threatened by a new, different game that they didn't like. In short, it doesn't matter what caused you guys to become arrogant *******s, what matters is that you did.

Also, the Brawl community is just as bad as the Melee community. The Brawl community isn't this meek boy scout who helps old ladies across streets and get's picked on by mean ol' Melee.

Really? REALLY? That's a wonderful baseless claim you just made there. I have nothing against the melee community, or rather, I had nothing against them until they started shouting bull**** at brawl. In every single case that I have documented, the brawl community has been accepting and forgiving, and the melee community has continued to spout **** about us for playing a "worse" game.