Does a lack of "true combos" hurt Brawl?

[Scufo]

Melee had an explosion of content, but the game did worse then 64 in Japan. Even though there was an increase in sales between the two games worldwide, Japan declined. This could be pointing to a possible trend. Sakurai also lives and works in Japan and likely saw the problems people have with the game.

I would like a link to the total Japanese sales figures. I can't find them anywhere. Regardless, Melee did worlds better than SSB64 overall.

Brawl brought back people who left after 64. More content doesn't explain it because Melee had more content than 64. Accessibility is the better answer.

Not sure how you jump to the conclusion that Brawl brought back these supposed masses of people that played SSB64 but not Melee.

As for Starcraft, it was not designed as a competitive game because Blizzard doesn't do it, not even with the first game. They also had things like campaigns and custome games, and most people don't play the ladder.

Sorry, this is flat out wrong. Blizzard has committed a ton of time and resources to balancing SC2 at a high level of play. By the time the beta came out, the game was basically done, and the months of beta were spent on heavy balance testing (and testing Bnet 2.0).

The mere presence of the campaign and custom games doesn't rule out that SC2 is intended to be competitive. They need to include something for the people who don't want to ladder. And they can get away with making a game geared towards the hardcore crowd, because they make bucketloads of money from televised Korean tournaments. Also, they have infinite money from WoW.


Now to talk about accessibility. I'm going to theorize that Brawl did not sell on accessibility. Did your average non-gamer buy Brawl? No. People who were already fans of Nintendo bought Brawl. The games that DID sell on accessibility are games like Wii Fit, Wii Sports Resort, and Wii Play. You know, the games that sold 22-27 million to Brawl's 9.5 million. There's your expanded audience right there. There's the brilliance of Nintendo's marketing strategy with the Wii. These are the games that other companies are constantly trying to emulate, in order to capitalize on this new, previously untapped market. Not Brawl.

Compared to those titles, Brawl is a bastion of "core gamer" mentality. From a distance, Brawl and Melee are basically the same. They were both praised for the exact same things and were played and loved by the same young male demographic as most games.

Edit: @BPC so you're arguing that high level Brawl takes the same amount of tech skill as high level Melee. Right.

 

[Black Mantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Wx9rznGIs&feature=autofb

this looks like a combo to me

 

[Big-Cat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Wx9rznGIs&feature=autofb

this looks like a combo to me

If you can't DI out of it, it is one to me. Even then, it looks very situational, not what I'd call a BnB combo.

 

[thesage]

lol@people thinking games sell based on accessibility...

That's why super mario bros. sold well. It was the easiest game ever. And tetris.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You can DI the trajectory, but if they are that close to Snake when he footstools I don't think it's gonna matter.

It's pretty similar in concept to Link Bomb stools.

 

[KingClubber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Wx9rznGIs&feature=autofb

this looks like a combo to me

this is an combo sir - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMhXSJBn808

 

[SmashChu]

UNSUPPORTED OPINION

I can post links too! Hurray!

The argument isn't that you like Vanilla ice cream. The argument is that Vanilla is the best flavor without ever tasting the other flavors.

Also, people DO care, even if it is a little. And I'm posting because I'm on lunch break and already ran out of information to take in from my other lunch break websites.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Answers.com. Wow, you trumped my argument.

A opinion is just "I think X," which is why unsupported opinion does not exist. Again, I can like Vanilla Ice cream all I want. I don't have to have a reason nor do I need to have tried other ice cream because it's an opinion. I don't have to have a reasons. Opinions, BY DEFINITION, have no reasonable backing and is subjective. This is the definition I posted from a dictionary.

And no, the argument was "Which is better." Which is "the best," is also an opinion and does not require any facts because it is an opinion. I shouldn't have to sit here and try to explain something any grown person should know.

I would like a link to the total Japanese sales figures. I can't find them anywhere. Regardless, Melee did worlds better than SSB64 overall.

Here are the figure for the three games.

I don;t have the time to get to the rest of your post. I'll try to get to it later.

 

[Big-Cat]

An opinion can be unsupported, but to use that in an argument is debating suicide. If you use such an opinion without getting research from different areas, no one's gonna take you seriously.

And just because Melee sold less in Japan doesn't mean it's a decline. A game selling less than its sequel doesn't mean it's a decline. When people think of a decline, they think of a trend. Going from one to another is not a trend; going from one to another to another to another is a trend.

 

[Stev]

Looking at balance:

Number of players with metaknight next to their name in top 24 (going from bottom to top): 9,9,7,4*

*only top 16 listed. you could add M2K to that list as well since he was banned

If you look at the Melee 2010 summary, the 9 biggest tournaments were won by 9 different characters (with only M2K using multiple with Marth and Sheik). That has to do with who won.

You listed 4 tournaments with 3 different character victors. Obviously that's not enough to compare.

I dont' have time to look up others, but Ill start with pound 4:

1: Mango (puff / falco)
2: Hbox (puff)
3: Amsah (sheik)
4: Armada (peach)
5: M2k (fox/marth and maybe sheik?)
5: Jman (fox)
7: Lucky (fox)
7: Zhu (falco)
9: Dr. PP (falco)
9: Plank (sheik)
9: Silent Spectre (falcon)
9: Tope (sheik)
13: DEHF (falco)
13: Hax (falcon)
13: DarkRain (falcon)
13: Linguini (ganon)
17: over triforce (sheik)
17: Silent Wolf (fox)
17: Pc Chris (fox)
17: Kage The Warrior (ganon)
17: Ka-Master (luigi)
17: Zgetto (fox)
17: Remen (fox)
17: Axe (Pikachu)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Golden Sun 2 sold less than the original and people consider it better than the original anyways.

Then again it depends on what people see as good or bad, I mean there are things like Lord of the Rings trilogy which many consider to be well worth the hype and money it made, then you get things like Twilight which many people including myself say is garbage.

So you know, popular opinion isn't always right.

I don't get why people eat Twilight garbage up. Still I'm not gonna hate my sister for dragging me to each movie.

@Stev: I'll be waiting for more.

 

[OkamiBW]

Post Genesis I results! There was like Falcon->Falcon->Falcon->Falcon->Jigglypuff->Ganon->Ganon->Ganon or something I remember. Also, there were both PikaChad and Axe who got 33rd with Iori with Pikachu and Mewtwo respectively! ^^

Also...DGDTJ results? Top 9's first names all started with J-names (not including Jeff/Axe). Can you say imbalanced? This is the kind of stuff the Brawlers are talking about. You don't want to go to a tournament and instantly be better because your name starts with J. Broken. Brawl, everyone has the same

Spoiler

(for lack of a swear word)

tripping advantage. Look, they banned the smash ball and IC's chain grabs, so that makes Brawl a good game. Leave them alone. (I thought that you can't fthrow chain grab with IC's more than 3 times in a row?)

Edit: I just thought of something. Allow me to offer an evolutionary perspective of the matter.

Melee is a more combo and tech chase heavy game than Brawl. This we cannot deny. So over the years, natural selection has occurred and players that don't always camp begin to have a selective advantage over the others. So the trait develops in which Melee players are more offensive.

Tripping aside, Brawl is a slower game with more defensive options. We know this. In the same respect, Brawl has selected for more defensive players who practice living until 200% and refuse to die. The trait develops in which Brawl players are more stubborn because they refuse to die.

So what does this mean? Evolution has taken place. Melee players attack Brawl players telling them that their game is bad. They try and convert Brawl players to Melee players or sometimes even simply away from smash telling them that they're not technical, they only want to camp, whatnot. Brawl players, on the other hand, don't want to die before 200%. They're stubborn. They refuse to listen to the overly aggressive Melee players. So we reach an impasse. Homozygous dominance...less people like both Melee and Brawl. More people begin to like only one of the games. And we reach a divergent split. Melee players and Brawl players become different species. Neither can breed anymore. See what I'm getting at? You guys can fling your genetic material back and forth at each other, but neither of you will get anywhere. You can't breed! You can't understand each other. You speak different languages. You play different games. You are...who you choose to be. You don't have to be a gun.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

ICs CG, wut? those aren't banned lol.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Edit: @BPC so you're arguing that high level Brawl takes the same amount of tech skill as high level Melee. Right.

Oh wow this is hilarious. First of all, maybe. Second of all, tech skill is only a part (I'd argue a part you should reduce) to being good at a game. Things like mindgames, strategy... anything that isn't in the realm of "handing your opponent the win" (tech skill flops, in other words)... those are part of what makes a game difficult as well. You want pure tech skill? I hear Tetris needs players...

 

[Phoxhound]

perhaps the players are what make the scene "competitive" and not the game...? maybe I'm pulling stuff out of my *** here but Brawl is just approaching its 3rd birthday and people have managed some rather impressive feats with this game; stuff like what BPC posted above. There are plenty of great brawl matches out there, and the game continues to develop. great players continue to take a system which is oriented for a slower, more accessible style of play and force it to fit with their well-developed tactics and plans.

tl;dr : in my opinion, great/dedicated players make the engine.

no intent to offend/flame.

 

[OkamiBW]

perhaps the players are what make the scene "competitive" and not the game...? maybe I'm pulling stuff out of my *** here but Brawl is just approaching its 3rd birthday and people have managed some rather impressive feats with this game; stuff like what BPC posted above. There are plenty of great brawl matches out there, and the game continues to develop. great players continue to take a system which is oriented for a slower, more accessible style of play and force it to fit with their well-developed tactics and plans.

tl;dr : in my opinion, great/dedicated players make the engine.

no intent to offend/flame.

Fixed. Only the silly Brawl players seem to make paragraph posts and say, "Hey guys, I'm sorry if this is too long for you to read (on a forum, for goodness sakes)!"

I'm sure some scrubby Melee posters do it too, but to all people who do this...stop thinking that your post is long just because it's longer than the URL.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I love how you see technicality as a flaw, BPC.

That's like me saying that chocolate milk is objectively worse than strawberry milk.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I love how you see technicality as a flaw, BPC.

That's like me saying that chocolate milk is objectively worse than strawberry milk.

But...it is worse because Strawberry Milk is too delicious.

Also it can be a flaw based on what people think of it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I love how you see technicality as a flaw, BPC.

That's like me saying that chocolate milk is objectively worse than strawberry milk.

Ehh... not really. It's not worse from a competitive standpoint, or even a design standpoint if you know exactly who you're marketing to. It's certainly not a flaw for those who like it. But it raises the bar of entry to the game obscenely, making the game less accessible to a wider audience. Additionally, it ignores the game design precedent of "Easy to learn, hard to master". So yes, it is bad design.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I didn't realize there was a universal definition of easy, Cadet.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

True, but if you discount melee, what modern game is hard?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Super Meat Boy.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

It's pretty obvious that Brawl is not as technical as melee. You'd be completely idiotic to argue against it.

One thing that technical potential provides are options and gameplay mechanics. Just the wavedash/land in melee gives amazing freedom of movement and options in any situation. Then there are the other fundamental movement techs that make Melee so much more technical, like dashcanceling and significantly less laggy aerials.

I'm not sure how you can argue that Brawl takes as much skill to play or master as melee is, since not only are melee tech and reflex barriers higher, but the situation knowledge barriers as well.

 

[DippnDots]

Do you guys still have a limit on ledge grabs? It's funny how dropping and grabbing the ledge is a viable strategy, so viable it needs to be banned for competitive camping to exist.

 

[Ghostbone]

Melee is really easy to learn, perhaps not on a competitive level, but definitely just playing casually it's extremely simple. (I played it casually for about 4 years, even after brawl came out without any problems...)

And I can tell you a casual brawl player is going to get destroyed by even the low level competitive players just the same as melee, so they both require a significant amount of skill to even start playing competitively.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Super Meat Boy.

You mean a game purposefully designed to be so hard that you can use "this game is really ****ing hard" as a hook?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's the one.

 

[DippnDots]

Melee is really easy to learn, perhaps not on a competitive level, but definitely just playing casually it's extremely simple. (I played it casually for about 4 years, even after brawl came out without any problems...)

And I can tell you a casual brawl player is going to get destroyed by even the low level competitive players just the same as melee, so they both require a significant amount of skill to even start playing competitively.

Is your argument really that people who take a game seriously will in most cases beat a person who doesn't take it seriously?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just saying, my Meta Knight destroys people who are beginners at Brawl as much as my Ice Climbers destroy people who are beginners at Melee >_>

 

[DippnDots]

ice cucumbers are mad fun yo ^_^


edit:

my point was, his axiom can be applied to any and all aspects of life, clearly, if you put time into something, you will have an advantage over someone who doesn't put that time in.


I can play drums better than someone who's never taken the time to practice a musical instrument, even though I 'main' guitar

I can draw better
I can run better
I can swim better
I can fight better
I can sing better

all of these examples should end in, "than this person because he hasn't put as much time and effort into this practice as I have."


Thus, when you use it as an argument to make two things "equal"

You're essentially making the entire universe 'equal'

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes.

Yes they are.

 

[DippnDots]

tl;dr/don't understand version of my argument

you're taking something that's universal and warping it into an argument of quantities

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do you guys still have a limit on ledge grabs? It's funny how dropping and grabbing the ledge is a viable strategy, so viable it needs to be banned for competitive camping to exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHfcafE9ig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn_7KAv66Kg

Just saying, my Meta Knight destroys people who are beginners at Brawl as much as my Ice Climbers destroy people who are beginners at Melee >_>

Haven't you played Browny before?

It's pretty obvious that Brawl is not as technical as melee. You'd be completely idiotic to argue against it.

One thing that technical potential provides are options and gameplay mechanics. Just the wavedash/land in melee gives amazing freedom of movement and options in any situation. Then there are the other fundamental movement techs that make Melee so much more technical, like dashcanceling and significantly less laggy aerials.

I'm not sure how you can argue that Brawl takes as much skill to play or master as melee is, since not only are melee tech and reflex barriers higher, but the situation knowledge barriers as well.

See I'm not arguing that melee isn't technical, more so there are aspects of it I find to be poorly thought out like L canceling.

Options? even low tiers in Brawl have options though just like Melee, the higher tiered characters had better overall options.

 

[Scufo]

^But you can't argue that you don't have more options in Melee simply because there is more stuff you can do at any given moment. There's universal stuff like dash dancing and wavedashing/landing, and there's plenty of character specific stuff like double jump cancel and float cancel.

And I agree that L cancel is bad design in principle, but it too allows you to do more stuff by canceling the lag on your aerials. Would it be better if aerials simply had less lag? Many would say yes. But regardless, it's still an option you have in Melee but not Brawl.

And like others have said, these extra options add to the mental aspect of the game as well. You need more situational awareness.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

An argument? No. Funny? Yes. Accurate? Very yes.

 

[SmashChu]

An opinion can be unsupported, but to use that in an argument is debating suicide. If you use such an opinion without getting research from different areas, no one's gonna take you seriously.

You don't use opinions because anyone who has a passing grasp with English know there is no rhyme or reason to an opinion. Again, I can like any flavor of ice cream I like, and I don't think anyone would take an argument about ice cream seriously.

In debates, you use arguments, which is a side or stance based on reason. I might argue why the Health Care bill is a good idea. Saying "I don't like the health care bill," is an opinion and is not subject to an arguments unless your dumb.

And just because Melee sold less in Japan doesn't mean it's a decline. A game selling less than its sequel doesn't mean it's a decline. When people think of a decline, they think of a trend. Going from one to another is not a trend; going from one to another to another to another is a trend.

Decline

9. to fail or dwindle; sink or fade away: to decline in popularity.

This is what happened in Japan. Fewer people were playing the game. Decline does not imply a trend. You can have a decline with two points. "Sales declined 40% in Q4."

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

^But you can't argue that you don't have more options in Melee simply because there is more stuff you can do at any given moment. There's universal stuff like dash dancing and wavedashing/landing, and there's plenty of character specific stuff like double jump cancel and float cancel.

You can, but what is actually viable to do?

Roy can Fair, Nair, Dair, Dance blade, Dtilt, Ftilt, Fsmash, Jump back wavedash back. Still doesn't change the fact that all of these options are terrible and will get him punished.

Lucario in Brawl can Charge cancel, this opens his option pull from a charge stance immensely. Glide tossing opens up options. Brawl has quite a bit of character specific tricks as well.

And I agree that L cancel is bad design in principle, but it too allows you to do more stuff by canceling the lag on your aerials. Would it be better if aerials simply had less lag? Many would say yes. But regardless, it's still an option you have in Melee but not Brawl.

So adding lag to a move or not adding lag to a move? Tough choice.

And yes the aerials should have less lag instead of needing to press a button when there is no reason to not attempt it.

And like others have said, these extra options add to the mental aspect of the game as well. You need more situational awareness.

What does this change about the speed issues with accessibility I brought up? Nintendo is a business, many people cited that Melee's speed and hypersensitive nature was an issue. Subspace was critizied as well my guess is next game they are gonna fix it so it's done better next time around.

Options are greater in melee, but what is viable as an option? And also how does this pan out over the cast of characters?

 

[Ghostbone]

Is your argument really that people who take a game seriously will in most cases beat a person who doesn't take it seriously?

Well it was kinda in reply to BPC saying there was a massive skill gap in melee between casuals and competitive players.

There's still a massive gap in brawl so that's not an argument against either game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well it was kinda in reply to BPC saying there was a massive skill gap in melee between casuals and competitive players.

There's still a massive gap in brawl so that's not an argument against either game.

The argument is that the gap is bigger in melee initially.

 

[Scufo]

You can, but what is actually viable to do?

Roy can Fair, Nair, Dair, Dance blade, Dtilt, Ftilt, Fsmash, Jump back wavedash back. Still doesn't change the fact that all of these options are terrible and will get him punished.

Lucario in Brawl can Charge cancel, this opens his option pull from a charge stance immensely. Glide tossing opens up options. Brawl has quite a bit of character specific tricks as well.

Wait, what? What kind of situation are we talking about here? I don't think you can say all those options are bad for Roy, all the time. And, there's options you didn't include. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

I don't doubt that there are character specific techs in Brawl. A good deal of them are even useful. I still hold that Melee gives you more options.

So adding lag to a move or not adding lag to a move? Tough choice.

And yes the aerials should have less lag instead of needing to press a button when there is no reason to not attempt it.

I agree that there's no depth in deciding whether or not to L-cancel. I meant that in Melee you at least have the option to L-cancel, whereas in Brawl you just have to eat the lag (unless the aerial auto-cancels, and not all do). Yes, it's always the best option to L-cancel, and so you should always be doing it, but it still allows you to do more stuff out of your jumps.

What does this change about the speed issues with accessibility I brought up? Nintendo is a business, many people cited that Melee's speed and hypersensitive nature was an issue. Subspace was critizied as well my guess is next game they are gonna fix it so it's done better next time around.

If we're arguing which is the deeper competitive game, accessibility isn't really a factor. I already shared my thoughts on Brawl's accessibility so whatev

Options are greater in melee

That's basically all I wanted. It's already known that viable options were removed in Brawl. Some were added in turn, but IMO not enough. I guess that's debatable.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Haven't you played Browny before?

Yep.

On Wi-Fi.

When I mained Jigglypuff.

And I was a Melee player.

Who had only been to one tournament.

Why do you ask?