Do the stages actually kill us, or is it our own fault?

[The_Altrox]

Altrox, when will BF kill you on a whim?

Did I say it did? no. i did not. I said I play every stage different. Many other people do too. I took the two simplest stages as examples. Do you think a Diddy user plays FD and BF the same? They can't. and while certain stages may alter ones style more than anothers, you're likely to play each stage a bit differently. How does this tie in? Every stage has a quirk that may cause an issue. FD has those ledges that you can get trapped under, but you know it was there. so don't lead yourself to that situatuon. Norfair has that lava wave, a thing you know may happen that gives you a warning before it hits. Don't let yourself fall into that situation.

 

[AgentJGV]

u implied that every stages changes your playstyle the same way, which it doesn't. BF has less risk of you dying because of the stage than say norfair.

 

[AbeX300]

At most of the times, it is actually their fault. Otherwise, if there are hazards that can appear OUT OF NOWHERE (like the trampolines in 75m), THEN it's the stage wanting to kill us.

Sometimes it's your fault, and sometimes it's not, which is 50/50 on the F-Zero stage, because sometimes you can see them coming, sometimes you can't.

At Mario Kart stage, it's DEFINITLY your fault if you don't keep an eye on the map on the top screen, nor the warning sign.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Stages that are Counterpics that can kill you :Haliberd, Corneria, FrigateOrpheon, Norfair, Castlesiege, PortownAeroDive, MarioCircut, Brinstar,RainbowCruse, Pirateship, JungleJapes, DistantPlanet, Pictochat, Greengreens, Delfino. Those are all of the counter pick stages that the stage is capable of killing you.

Otherstages that can kill you: NewporkCity, MarioBros, Warioware, Spearpillar, Flatzone2, 75m, Rumblefalls, Summit, MushroomyKingdom, BigBlue, Bridge of Elden.

Stages where the stage is more dangerous than the player (atleast in my oppinion): MarioBros, Warioware, Spearpillar, Flatzone2, 75m, Rumblefalls, Mushroomykingdom, Bigblue, Rainbowcruise. In these stages, it doesn't take just a reflect to take care of the stage's issue, but you actually spend more time worried about and taking care of the stage than you do fighting the enemy.

In most, if not all other stages, the issues are very minimal, and it takes about a twitch to deal with the stage's issue. The 3rd set of stages are the only ones that I think deserve banishment. In all others, it's usually yourfault for getting your butt kicked by the stage, or your opponents welldeserved stage kill.

 

[Smudge]

Just a little thinking, something many johning brawlers forget to do. .

That made me lol.

And i've got to agree, if the stage kills you, it's 9 time out of 10 your fault for either not noticing it or falling into it.

(NOTE: I said 9 times out of 10, theres always exceptions to everything)

 

[Pink murder]

News flash: Every stage changes your play style.

I would never play Wolf on FD the same way I play him on Battle Feild. Likewise, battling Fox on FD and then Falco make a difeference in style. SWmash is based on the sole idea of adaptation to your opponent to knock them off the stage.If I play against CFs with Bowser all day, then I have to battle a DDD, I gotta change style fast if I don't want to get royaly screwed. and when you dodge the claw or lava, it doesn't take much effort at all. Just a little thinking, something many johning brawlers forget to do. But as far as your core style of moves that aren't affected by different stages, obstacles aren't going to be the issue, and can't change that.

Did I say it did? no. i did not. I said I play every stage different. Many other people do too. I took the two simplest stages as examples. Do you think a Diddy user plays FD and BF the same? They can't. and while certain stages may alter ones style more than anothers, you're likely to play each stage a bit differently. How does this tie in? Every stage has a quirk that may cause an issue. FD has those ledges that you can get trapped under, but you know it was there. so don't lead yourself to that situatuon. Norfair has that lava wave, a thing you know may happen that gives you a warning before it hits. Don't let yourself fall into that situation.

Unbelievable, you've actually managed to change my mind ^^
Congratulations.
I still however believe that there are exceptions. Like someone (Forgot the name >.>) above me said, 9/10 times it's your fault (although IMO i'd say its more like 8/10).
There is still one thing that i have not been convinced out of. How would you explain the interrupted combos? It wouldnt be your fault if a giant bullet just so happens to appear right in front of you while your executing a combo.

 

[13th Nightmare]

I dont think the stages kill you, but there are things in the stage that can catch you unaware if you aren't concentrating. Most of the time, it is the players fault if they die, be it down to lack of experience with their chosen brawler, or not reacting in time to avoid something that appeared on the stage

 

[Lemonwater]

Well, I've had the ultimate chimera spawn practically RIGHT ON ME in New Pork City and I had no opportunity to evade so I died. I don't think that was my fault.

But some stages just have too many hazards you have to pay attention to. So many that it distracts you from actually getting any fighting done. So many that is's F***ING annoying. And those hazards constantly appear, and the stage design sucks. 75m and Mario Bros. come to mind. I refuse to play on them. Mario Bros. is the worst stage ever, and those dumb crabs are RIDICULOUSLY powerful. They kill me at like 50%.

And I don't like scrolling stages. Characters who have bad jumping ability just curl up and die if they have an opponent who can spare a jump or two to prevent them from moving up.

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Most of the time it is certainly the players fault.
If you get killed by the stage in Pirate Ship, Norfair, Halbert, or other such stages where you can see the stage hazards coming from a mile away then it is certainly your own fault.
It is not really based on luck. You can see the hazards coming, and many people can use their skill to dodge them. If you can't, then your skill is lacking. There are no real johns for getting killed by the stage in a stage like that and if you make a john then you are ********.

Unless you got hit cause you Random Tripped or something. That is luckbased and a valid john. Random Tripping sucks. Biggest mistake in Brawl I think. Though it's certainly not the only one.

 

[Pink murder]

Most of the time it is certainly the players fault.
If you get killed by the stage in Pirate Ship, Norfair, Halbert, or other such stages where you can see the stage hazards coming from a mile away then it is certainly your own fault.
It is not really based on luck. You can see the hazards coming, and many people can use their skill to dodge them. If you can't, then your skill is lacking. There are no real johns for getting killed by the stage in a stage like that and if you make a john then you are ********.

O.k
So what about stages like pictochat or that g&w stage? You cant see what, where, or when somthing is coming. They just kind of... appear >.>

 

[Lemonwater]

I don't think Pictochat's hazards are as dangerous as the ones you can see from a long ways away, but Flat Zone is just insane.....

In general, I don't like stage hazards.

 

[The_Altrox]

Stages that are Counterpics that can kill you :Haliberd, Corneria, FrigateOrpheon, Norfair, Castlesiege, PortownAeroDive, MarioCircut, Brinstar,RainbowCruse, Pirateship, JungleJapes, DistantPlanet, Pictochat, Greengreens, Delfino. Those are all of the counter pick stages that the stage is capable of killing you.

Otherstages that can kill you: NewporkCity, MarioBros, Warioware, Spearpillar, Flatzone2, 75m, Rumblefalls, Summit, MushroomyKingdom, BigBlue, Bridge of Elden.

Stages where the stage is more dangerous than the player (atleast in my oppinion): MarioBros, Warioware, Spearpillar, Flatzone2, 75m, Rumblefalls, Mushroomykingdom, Bigblue, Rainbowcruise. In these stages, it doesn't take just a reflect to take care of the stage's issue, but you actually spend more time worried about and taking care of the stage than you do fighting the enemy.

In most, if not all other stages, the issues are very minimal, and it takes about a twitch to deal with the stage's issue. The 3rd set of stages are the only ones that I think deserve banishment. In all others, it's usually yourfault for getting your butt kicked by the stage, or your opponents welldeserved stage kill.

k, but that didn't answer my question. I said which stages randomly kill you. Most/all counter picks give warnings. many of the banned do the same thing. Good compiling however.


and...

u implied that every stages changes your playstyle the same way, which it doesn't. BF has less risk of you dying because of the stage than say norfair.

I never implied that. I just said stages will slightly alter your play-style. Even Smashville with it's slightly different build requires a different game than FD. And though we can assume that more people "get screwed" on Norfair than BF, that's not necisarrily true for all people. The stage is built diffenently. The edges are more so to grab. You play Ganon right? It might be part of your game for the lava to save you. Heck, I myself die more on BF than Norfair when I play Olimar. Just an example.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Oh, randomly. I missed that part. Why would it even matter if it's Random? You usually always get a warning if a threat becomes deadly or not... infact, I can't think off of the top of my head when you'd be instantly killed by something without it.

The only thing I really felt like saying was that you can usually slaughter anyone in any environment, and the stages' dangers can be used against your enemy just as well as they can destroy you too. Except for the stages that I mentioned seem to force you to fight against the stage more than your opponent, most of the time that you die, it's either your fault for failing to dodge or react in time, or the enemy's fault for using the stage to kill you.

I'm sorry if I didn't answer anything or if I sounded stupid. I some times enjoy thinking outloud. And I like to do so, since I occasionally have intelligent thoughts come out.

About the stages changing your play style, I agree with that 100%. It's impossible to play 80% of the stages the same way as you play another. I'm not trying to flame or be cocky or anything, but I want someone to tell me some stages that you can play the same on without changing your strategy at all.

 

[Pink murder]

I don't think Pictochat's hazards are as dangerous as the ones you can see from a long ways away, but Flat Zone is just insane.....

In general, I don't like stage hazards.

I hear you ^^
I mean, they're fun when your in a FFA and the point is to have fun, but when its a competitive match, they just become a nuisance >.>

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

Flatzone's Chaotic..... The worst part is probably the Lion Level, followed by the Gas Stage, and then Chef.... Fire is the best one to fight on... I feel the rest of the stages are way too unfair... Wouldn't it be hilarious if on the next Smash Bros there was a Game&Watch 2 (possibly girly themed) with an all new set of moves? The stage for her woulda been nuts!

 

[3rd Ice Climber]

Most stage hazards are avoidable,but when your in the middle of combo-ing on spear pillar,then palkia decides to **** you up by flipping the stage upside-down,and totally screwing you up and often killing those who rely on vertical recoveries

most are avoidable,but some are totally unavoidable (palkia is a meanie>_>)



and Flat Zone = WTF

 

[Ugg]

Most stage hazards are avoidable,but when your in the middle of combo-ing on spear pillar,then palkia decides to **** you up by flipping the stage upside-down,and totally screwing you up and often killing those who rely on vertical recoveries

most are avoidable,but some are totally unavoidable (palkia is a meanie>_>)



and Flat Zone = WTF

You can always turn your head upside down and look at the screen.

 

[omnicloud7strife]

Pillar of Destiny.... Cressilia is a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE thing. Also, Dialga doesn't give much warning for him jumping outta the stage and going, "I AM A POKEMON!" which kinda blows. Palkia, I typically just say to my opponent: "Truce till we're not upsidedown," and that works. If it didn't, I'm good at figuring out where I am.

 

[The_Altrox]

That's why SP is banned. Too random w/o warning.
and the cave of life. If it was only Dialga without timeslow, the stage might be Counter/banned.

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

O.k
So what about stages like pictochat or that g&w stage? You cant see what, where, or when somthing is coming. They just kind of... appear >.>

Yeah in Pictochat it is pretty impossible to dodge some hazards cause they have no warning.

But I think that as long as the hazard has a warning or is predictable enough to be dodged by skill, it's your own fault if you get hit (Or your opponents if he throws you in the hazard).

That's why SP is banned. Too random w/o warning.
and the cave of life. If it was only Dialga without timeslow, the stage might be Counter/banned.

Actaully you can see when Cresselia is going to attack. That big boomerang has to charge above her before she throws it and has a few set paths that it can fly and if you pay attention to her you can see that she makes an animation before doing the small boomerangs attack. So by watching her you can predict both moves.
So I don't think that Cresselia would be that bad.

Actually I think that it is mainly banned because of the loop of the stage that allows fast characters to stall out slow ones.

 

[The_Altrox]

I have already made an argument to have Pictochat moved. But apparently, you can DI the obstacles, and you have 1 second to do so. Very risky stag though, and useful to break up hardcore FD loving folks.

 

[Pink murder]

Yeah in Pictochat it is pretty impossible to dodge some hazards cause they have no warning.

But I think that as long as the hazard has a warning or is predictable enough to be dodged by skill, it's your own fault if you get hit (Or your opponents if he throws you in the hazard).

There you go ^^
That's a perfect explanation
If the stage gives us a warning of when something is going to happen, then its our fault. If it doesn't, then it's most likely the random stage's fault.

 

[Scinn]

one time a stage killed me it was the donkey kong place and a soccer ball spawned at the spike soccer ball hits me and i die

 

[The_Altrox]

one time a stage killed me it was the donkey kong place and a soccer ball spawned at the spike soccer ball hits me and i die

That's why items are banned. Try again.

There you go ^^
That's a perfect explanation
If the stage gives us a warning of when something is going to happen, then its our fault. If it doesn't, then it's most likely the random stage's fault.

Read my last post. I don't like the spawn time either, but there is a brief period showing that you can react and DI. I do think the stage hould be moved, but it won't be. It's a great stage to practice hazarding however.

 

[Nikacho]

Stages always have signs that something's going to kill you. I'd say it's your fault.

 

[Scinn]

That's why items are banned. Try again.



Read my last post. I don't like the spawn time either, but there is a brief period showing that you can react and DI. I do think the stage hould be moved, but it won't be. It's a great stage to practice hazarding however.

well no **** surelock it was on wi-fi wit anyone

 

[The_Altrox]

well no **** surelock it was on wi-fi wit anyone

Then it's irrelevant. >__>

 

[Pink murder]

Read my last post. I don't like the spawn time either, but there is a brief period showing that you can react and DI. I do think the stage hould be moved, but it won't be. It's a great stage to practice hazarding however.

Yea i see what you mean, and i totally agree ^^
But wasn't this thread about whether its the stages fault or ours? Like i said before, in the random stages (Banned or not) there's a pretty decent chance that it will be the stages fault(I did say decent, as The Altrox said, there is sometimes a brief period where you can react and DI, but other times, it simply isn't enough >.>). On stages where there are clear warnings that a hazard is coming, then 9.5/10 it is our fault.

 

[~CPU~]

Stages can't kill. It's the players fault for getting hit by any hazards.

 

[The_Altrox]

New: topic idea/discussion
Should Skyworld be banned?
It's already counter banned, but what about banned?

We can't say the stage reforming itself is bad, because you can time the ledge rebuild.
But destroying of ledges seems to be a target on this stage to attack. after all, characters that rely on a tether get screwed. People say that instantly makes it okay as counterpick. But let's think: Isn't Summit banned for a similar reason? People also say that it's no different than an edgeguard that they can't grab. Untrue. when I use Ivysaur, I can chase people off the ledge with leaves. Similar things can't be done. The little chance to recover on a ledge guarded stage drops to zero on this stage. also, mini invinvcible caves exist under situations.
Discuss.

 

[Praxis]

Stages can't kill. It's the players fault for getting hit by any hazards.

However, there are occasions where the hazards are too overbearing to consistently evade. If the punishment is too harsh for the crime...

Examples include Port Town's cars that kill absurdly well and Spear Pillar.

Norfair, Pirate Ship, Picto-Chat,

These stages don't kill you; it's your fault. All three are actually legal in Washington, and now that all of us practice on the stage regularly, nobody gets killed by the stage. Actually, WA has Green Greens as a legal stage, and those of us that know the stage (I am famous for winning there always xD ) never get killed by it.

For example, Norfair. Why do people ever die here? The lava's knockback is not that high, and when the lava comes from the background, you can shield it, spotdodge it, or even grab or plank a ledge for invincibility- you don't NEED to be in the capsule! We usually just keep fighting and then both shield when the lava hits.

Pirate Ship's bombs are a bit absurd- 50% damage- but they rarely kill. PictoChat's hazards aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be- they have very poor knockback.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

I rather like it, but it's understandable if Skyworld is banned. You can gimp recoveries just by removing where the recovers are going to land. Other stages are unbalanced in different ways, but still, it's understandable that this one is going to be limited because of it. But still, people can still stop recoveries pretty well without it, so I can also see why the stage isn't banned. I personally think it should be just a Counter-Pick, because if the stage is destroyed by an enemy's attacks, it would still be more their fault than the stages that you died not being able to recover. But that's just my thoughts.

 

[Pink murder]

Lol i hate skyworld >.>
Yea, if by any chance i do end up on that stage, the first thing people do is rip apart the ledges. They say its a way of edge guarding? That's bull xD. I don't see how destroying the edge completely is a means of guarding it >.>. I shouldn't be complaining seeing as i main kirby, and the destroyed ledges don't really pose too much of a threat to me, but this isn't the kirby boards and the rest of you most likely do have a problem with them. Also, i find it annoying that you can actually spike someone using an up move >.>.
*Looks at snake*

 

[Praxis]

Sometimes, it's the player's fault. Sometimes, it's the opponent's actions. Other times, it can be the stage itself. Most of the time, it's clearly avoidable and your fault for getting hit/grabbed or for walking/running into the trap but there are some times when it comes out of nowhere and you're left wondering how it happened. That's why those stages are counterpick and not neutral or banned. Here's a couple of videos to help me back this up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGLc1bpya1g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE4zHjYWeyk

I saw almost everything coming on this one >_<

Green greens seems random, but you shouldn't play on the blocks. Their fault. and on both videos, lots of those deaths had nothing to do with the stage.

Actually, on Greens, if you air dodge you won't get hurt by bomb explosions, even if the bomb explodes by falling on you as you're airdodging.

 

[Jesusdragon737]

The only thing I have to say is....If you get killed by the stage when it flips in Frigate Orpheon, you have issues. The stage gives you plenty of warning. Just jump up when the siren starts going. Not that complicated.

 

[wh1te5had0w]

It is the players fault but the stages can get frustrating like big blue so people "john" and blame the stages.

 

[The_Altrox]

I'm considering putting all of mah smash theories in a collection and bring them to be standard theory. Good idea or bad idea or waste of time?

 

[Vorguen]

Only if Donkey Kong is manly enough.

 

[:mad:]

well no **** surelock it was on wi-fi wit anyone

I'm sorry, but that was just too good. How old are you? 10?

 

[The_Altrox]

Only if Donkey Kong is manly enough.

Last time I checked, he's still pretty high