Do expert Lucario players use Double Team?

[Timbers]

Boy do things go off topic quickly around here!

I had to check the topic title to remember what thread this was. I thought we were in the Game-and-Watch matchup thread for a second.

 

[LP4Life666]

I had to check the topic title to remember what thread this was. I thought we were in the Game-and-Watch matchup thread for a second.

I think the thread just totally double-teamed your a$$.

 

[Nurotasama]

I think the thread just totally double-teamed your a$$.

You know what I have to say to THAT!?

...

Spoiler

DEMON FANG!

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Just a heads up: some guy is systematically going through the character boards with a Vote for Gerudo Valley thread.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Vote for Gerudo Valley, j/k.
Hi Lucario trainers, I have been keeping an eye on Lucario and think he is a great character to be a second to my main, possibly replacing Falco, or Dedede.
So, I might be showing interest in your Lucario discussions.

 

[LP4Life666]

Vote for Gerudo Valley, j/k.
Hi Lucario trainers, I have been keeping an eye on Lucario and think he is a great character to be a second to my main, possibly replacing Falco, or Dedede.
So, I might be showing interest in your Lucario discussions.

Hi, welcome to the double-team thread. Don't mind the baby Lucarios strapped with C4, we went on a bit of a tangent there.

So what's your take on Lucario's double-team move?

 

[Kitamerby]

you Know What I Have To Say To That!?

...

Spoiler

demong Fang!

Lightning Tiger Blade! : D

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Don't mind the baby Lucarios strapped with C4, we went on a bit of a tangent there.

So what's your take on Lucario's double-team move?

Oh, I won't, and wouldn't that be a Rioulo? heh heh heh

Well, I doubt my inexperienced state of mind with Lucario can contribute, but I just use it when I know an attack is coming, rather than assume an attack will come.

 

[tedward2000]

Oh, I won't, and wouldn't that be a Rioulo? heh heh heh

Well, I doubt my inexperienced state of mind with Lucario can contribute, but I just use it when I know an attack is coming, rather than assume an attack will come.

And thats when you Double Team!
-t2

 

[Samuelson]

i dont use it that often, i only use it against projectile spam or if the move is extremely predictable like FALCON PAWWWNCH!!!

 

[manhunter098]

Dont forget using it on any projectile with some ending lag on it, or when its still pretty close to your opponent. That pretty much screams double team at you.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

i dont use it that often, i only use it against projectile spam or if the move is extremely predictable like FALCON PAWWWNCH!!!

What about a 180 degree Ganon PUNCH?

 

[zrky]

Double-Team seems to work well for me with any predictable move(*hint*heavy character)Also if the person is doing a side smash, it works great or with projectiles. Other than that I usually forget about it.

 

[Trapt497]

And also, I'd like to point out that the Lucario boards rock. Best community based on a single character evar.

YAY!!!! That makes me feel good. I'm glad I'm part of a community that gets respected like that.

I think you just made my day =P

Marth's counter is the easiest to pull off, Ike's is a bit harder but still not bad, Lucario's on the other hand... If the animation was 100 frames before the user was back in control of Lucario, about 10 of those frames would actually be used to counter. It's certainly hard to pull off but we've found our uses for it.

With that said, it widely varies. Some Lucario users seem to never want to use it, some overuse it, but it still gets used. DT is an awesome KO move so when an opponent is being predictable, it'll get used. It's also good at closing the gap between from spammed projectiles (Pikachu <.<).

I agree. Though I am no expert, I personally don't use it much because I find it so hard to connect and make it work. I haven't gotten the timing down, and I feel like there are very few frames in which getting hit makes Lucario counter. Maybe I haven't practiced enough. But thats just me.

 

[Blue Flames]

Double team has too much startup lag in my opinion (I still use it way too much, though). Everytime I use it, the opponent either hits in the startup frames, or misses. It almost looks like there's invicibility frames at the start.

 

[Rebonack]

Woah!

The derailed topic has returned to da rails? What madness is this?

I already said my piece on it. I use Double Team to patch up holes in my offensive, blah blah blah.

Is it just me or does Double Team seem more suited as a teleport punish like MetaKnight's cape rather than a counter move? I mean, it doesn't deal counter damage and it's slow enough on its execution that it can often be blocked.

Yar.

 

[benji618]

double team is a great couter and its also good for doging even if you don't hit the attacker

 

[Rogue Pit]

I Played Azen(lucario) and Chillendude(d3) in doubles, my partner took the d3 and i had azen and i didnt see him use DT once, he just stuck to destroying me with like the ken Combo, Fair Fair Dair. I got in a few good hits but i doubt he took the time and risk to use DT.

 

[LP4Life666]

Edit: disregard this post <.<

 

[Nodrak]

It's not a move a lot of people will use often but it's still extremely good. Just cause Azen doesn't use it doesn't mean no one should use it. Besides Double Team is only a risk when you aren't used to the startup time. Also isn't the ken combo a spike, not just any dair? =S

 

[Zero_Gamer]

*HAS A HUGE REALIZATION*

Double Team is easy to punish, yes, but... it turns Meta Knight into a sniveling baby.
It ruins:
- aggressive Metas' approaches (every Meta Knight) It will turn him into a defensive Meta Knight, which will then be prone to multiple Aura Sphere in his fat face (yes, his face is fat because it consists of his entire body).
- Olimar spam. This includes the ENTIRE time the Pikmin have made contact with you (get latched, then run at them with a SH DT anyone? This has the potential to ruin Olimar forever!)
-projectile spam (duh)
-slow attacks (duh)
- If we are able to predict grenade explosions we could purposely charge into those grenades in the center of the field, DT/RDT, and eat Snake's hand (yes, Lucario actually bites your hand off and reattaches it with AIDS, that's why Double Team is so powerful).

We should seriously have someone post another thread stating what moves/characters are most prone to the Double Team. After some study and practice, this move will make Lucario more feared than Meta Knight!

 

[Timbers]

^ Metaknight's grab game is very powerful, don't underestimate it. I never thought of DTing the nades though, I wonder how that'd work lol. Although generally you want to stay away from Snake. <.<

 

[Zero_Gamer]

^ Metaknight's grab game is very powerful, don't underestimate it. I never thought of DTing the nades though, I wonder how that'd work lol. Although generally you want to stay away from Snake. <.<

His grab game is powerful, buuuuuut,

The first couple of approaches will most likely be SH Fairs.
Once Meta Knight grabs you, he will most likely do a Dthrow. In which case, you can DT immediately out of the grab and more likely than not, punish the Meta Knight for not being used to being un-broken because he will almost always try to prolong the combo with an aerial.
The logic is infallible because it is sexy.

 

[Timbers]

Except he can shield before your DT will actually hit him. DT doesn't work on low lag attacks.

EDIT: Oh yeah and he can always bait the DT and grab you again or somethin

 

[Tomkraven]

Except he can shield before your DT will actually hit him. DT doesn't work on low lag attacks.

Exactly thats why you should never use dt against any fast character... especially MK...
try to use it against ike or king dedede.

2 months ago i found out a really tricky use for dt...

i was playing a friend and he was using toon link... he jumped and threw his boomerang... meanwhile i kept fighting normally with him but just before the boomerang came back i DTed it and he had no time to shield or do anything cause he was charging Fsmash thinking that i did it by mistake

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

What about a 180 degree Ganon PUNCH?

DONT DOUBLE TEAM THIS!

Spot Dodge then hump his leg... much more humiliating.

/nods

 

[Timbers]

Exactly thats why you should never use dt against any fast character... especially MK...
try to use it against ike or king dedede.

2 months ago i found out a really tricky use for dt...

i was playing a friend and he was using toon link... he jumped and threw his boomerang... meanwhile i kept fighting normally with him but just before the boomerang came back i DTed it and he had no time to shield or do anything cause he was charging Fsmash thinking that i did it by mistake

I'm personally against using it on DDD, only because DDD's game is hugely based on grabs. He might have laggy moves, but if you're that close to him he'll probably go for the chaingrab more than anything. Ike, Zelda, Ganon all come to mind as DT prey.

It's just not a good move. There's no point trying to butter it up. A high risk counter that can be shielded in almost every situation. It's pointless. At least if you're going to put in a counter then make them get caught in the hitlag while your counter goes through. That's why it works for Ike, Marth, and Peach. That's why it doesn't work for Lucario.

 

[Tomkraven]

Thats true... sad but true and theres nothing we can do about it

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

It's just not a good move. There's no point trying to butter it up. A high risk counter that can be shielded in almost every situation. It's pointless. At least if you're going to put in a counter then make them get caught in the hitlag while your counter goes through. That's why it works for Ike, Marth, and Peach. That's why it doesn't work for Lucario.

Next thing you will say Gannon's Wizard Punch has no use either...

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Except he can shield before your DT will actually hit him. DT doesn't work on low lag attacks.

EDIT: Oh yeah and he can always bait the DT and grab you again or somethin

I don't mean DT the actual grab. I mean AFTER eating his feet from that Dthrow, you can immediately carry out your counter. Chances are that, since almost 100% of Meta's like to chase that throw, it will work on a good couple of throws. Once you get the fear in him though, and he starts learning. THAT'S when you can do other stuff because he's too worried about that c-c-c-combo breaker and he decides to go by an entirely different approach, after grabs anyway.
This should work, experiment with it when you fight a Meta in a friendly fight or something. Who knows, this might turn the matchup into a more favorable one against Meta.
Personally, I prefer NOT to get grabbed. If I see a Meta running at me I'll chuck an Aura Sphere in his face, but in the chance that I do happen to be grabbed, I would like to know my options to keep from being killed.
Conclusion: Don't knock it till you try it.

Edit: and you can't put up your shield when you slash 3 times and you're in the air...

 

[Timbers]

Next thing you will say Gannon's Wizard Punch has no use either...

Reverse warlock punch owns for his recovery, it's not useless.

I don't mean DT the actual grab. I mean AFTER eating his feet from that Dthrow, you can immediately carry out your counter. Chances are that, since almost 100% of Meta's like to chase that throw, it will work on a good couple of throws. Once you get the fear in him though, and he starts learning. THAT'S when you can do other stuff because he's too worried about that c-c-c-combo breaker and he decides to go by an entirely different approach, after grabs anyway.
This should work, experiment with it when you fight a Meta in a friendly fight or something. Who knows, this might turn the matchup into a more favorable one against Meta.
Personally, I prefer NOT to get grabbed. If I see a Meta running at me I'll chuck an Aura Sphere in his face, but in the chance that I do happen to be grabbed, I would like to know my options to keep from being killed.
Conclusion: Don't knock it till you try it.

Edit: and you can't put up your shield when you slash 3 times and you're in the air...

I'm talking about him following with a sh fair. He barely leaves the ground with his sh, and at lower percents he'll chase the dthrow with another dthrow anyways. He's able to get back on the ground and shield if your DT does activate from the fair.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Reverse warlock punch owns for his recovery, it's not useless.

What are you talking about...

That move was put in there to Shame your opponent when you hit them with it. That move+your trash talk = game win when your opponent walks away from the match too shamed to play Brawl again

^_^

 

[Timbers]

was put in there to Shame your opponent when you hit them with it.

No, Lucario was.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Reverse warlock punch owns for his recovery, it's not useless.

I'm talking about him following with a sh fair. He barely leaves the ground with his sh, and at lower percents he'll chase the dthrow with another dthrow anyways. He's able to get back on the ground and shield if your DT does activate from the fair.

Perhaps I'm being too optimistic, but seeing as how you don't see this as a favorable scenario may only serve to strengthen my argument. The opponent, confident that he won't be punished, will never see this coming. Unless his reflexes are on an abnormally high level, he will get hurt. Once he's aware of this move as a viable combo ender, he will not be throwing based only off of reflexes, but also of prediction and will, thus, after taking a chunk of damage after those throws (do not forget that throws are not going come continuously, and therefore it is entirely possible to punish every throw), relent from the offense. I'm not sure who it was, but I think it was CunningKitsune that posted a guide on the psychological aspects of competetive Smash (found, respectively, in the Melee forums, if anyone is still playing that game...). It has served to further enlighten me in how to achieve the perfect mindset.
Experiment, do out-of-the-ordinary things and we may achieve out-of-the-ordinary results.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

but I think it was CunningKitsune that posted a guide on the psychological aspects of competetive Smash

Don't be silly... there is no guide on how to get one's skill higher. Skill is practiced not learned through reading.

 

[dguy6789]

Don't be silly... there is no guide on how to get one's skill higher. Skill is practiced not learned through reading.

That can't be further from the truth. You could play 2 hours a day every day for three years and you wouldn't get to the top level of play without the proper understanding of high level play. While there is nothing you can read that automatically makes you good, there are definitely readings that will significantly improve the game of those who apply what is said. This is why in Melee, there are people who have played the game every day since the game came out, and their skill level is not even a tiny fraction of the skill possessed by even an average level smasher on smashboards.

Here's a short example of what I am talking about. It was written about Melee, but everything said in it applies to Brawl.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=96828

There is so much more to competitive level gaming than meets the eye. Obtaining flawless control of your character will only get you so far. Understanding what to do with your moveset in an infinite number of different scenarios against every other character on every stage is something that will never be mastered so easily.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

That can't be further from the truth. You could play 2 hours a day every day for three years and you wouldn't get to the top level of play without the proper understanding of high level play. While there is nothing you can read that automatically makes you good, there are definitely readings that will significantly improve the game of those who apply what is said. This is why in Melee, there are people who have played the game every day since the game came out, and their skill level is not even a tiny fraction of the skill possessed by even an average level smasher on smashboards.

Here's a short example of what I am talking about. It was written about Melee, but everything said in it applies to Brawl.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=96828

-_- I guess saying something like that in a place where people read up on how to become better at something and improve their skill upon a game isn't the best place to preach... hmm....<_< >_>

 

[dguy6789]

I'm just saying that repetitive play can only get you so far. There are some things that most people will never "pick up on" if they just play the game over and over. Some things have to be told to them.

Simple example is that there are hundreds of Melee players who have reached the absolute pinnacle of character control. They never mess up, they can do everything their character can do. They can wavedash and l cancel as good as Ken, etc... Yet these people never win. The difference between Ken and some random Marth isn't necessarily how good they are technically, but how they use what they can do in the match.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I know some guys like that. They can frame-perfect shffle in melee, but can't handle a spammy Marth with no Ats whatsoever (me).

 

[Gymn]

Dt is a useful attack when predictable people play you, as everyone states. However lucario can become predictable if you use it too much. Im no expert, but i try to balance out my Dt against any oppenent to make sure he always second guesses himself and gets hit. But thats just me.