Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Technomage]

We've come soo far

Soo many new, interesting characters and franchises


And thank god it's nearly over

View attachment 315104

Yeah, I've had my fill of base game and DLC, too. I'm okay with it ending after FP2 and some later balance patches. Well, especially if FP2 goes out with a bang.

 

[Gengar84]

Hell Even a lot of Blizzard's Human Designs are fantastic just look at 90% of the Overwatch cast and also a lot of Stand out characters like Arthas. and if we streatch human to Humanoid then Tyrael, Illidan as you said Kerrigan just to say the least.

Oh yeah. I definitely agree with that. Blizzard has some of my favorite character designs overall, human or no, and someone like Arthas would be awesome in Smash. We are definitely lacking in ice elemental characters and I can’t ever complain about more villains.

 

[7NATOR]

Y'know, more than anything I'm realizing the question of Ayumi vs. Shadow is just weirdly specific. They're owned by different companies, they have different aesthetics, they're from different genres, and they're overall in much different situations. I think the real question here is why we're debating Ayumi and Shadow specifically.

It's because I'm a little mad

Like I said, I don't usually really get up in arms about the characters we talk about and what people feel are likely. with Ayumi though, I really don't understand why she's getting as much talk as she is getting right now, when really she has all the elements against her.

So I had to see what people felt about her, compared to a Popular and Iconic character like Shadow. I just had to see if people really didn't have high hopes for Shadow's chances, and it seems that yes, People really don't feel too high about Shadow's chances if Ayumi Tachibana is seen as more likely than him. I find it kind of frustrating personally

With all due respect, people are better off reaching their own conclusions about Shadow, because your perspective is going to cast him in a favourable light compared to almost anyone. And the reality of the situation is he's not in a very favourable situation, currently.


Ayumi because her games are coming out in a couple days, so people are talking about her.

And Shadow being grafted on to it is because... you know why.

I can't just keep quiet on Shadow though. the reason I put him in such a favorable light is that most people don't give him the time of day and just cast him in unfavorable light all the time, when there are actual counter arguments against some of the cons on his likelihood. I'm like the equalizer in this regard

The Assist thing is hard because many people won't be convinced unless an actual promotion were to happen, but alot of these responses are now being geared more towards people that are open to Assist Promotions, and mention how the Merits of the actual character is the main thing to consider

I understand if people find Eggman and Tails to be more likely, but Shadow also has reason to be in the conversation, as he is the 2nd most popular character, was the main showcase in the game that brought Sonic to Nintendo audiences, Has been the most requested Sonic character alot of the time (in more casual circles), is the Head of Sonic team (or Studio) favorite character, and is still a Relevant and Iconic character in general.

and Shadow should not just be seen as Echo Fodder. Shadow on his own merits is closer to Sephiroth than a character like Dark Samus. Shadow and Dark Samus both have the capabilities to be their own characters, but unlike Dark Samus, Shadow doesn't have any drawbacks that would prevent him from not being seen as his own character, and as said, as Merits comparable to Sephiroth in terms of Iconic status, popularity, etc

In regards to the reality of the situation, Sephiroth was not seen in a favorable light, as many people did not give him the time of day before he got in. I did not have him in active predictions, but I still saw him as viable candidate for FP2, and there were some actively predicting him, but many others just disregarded him despite his pedigree

I can see why you'd be hesitant on a promo pick who was region-centric for the longest time. I'll admit, I'm taking quite a risk here, and I can see why others wouldn't really want to take that risk. But "moveset potential"? VNs inherently being less likely? That's... decidedly less solid evidence, especially the former. Nintendo's choosing the characters, not Sakurai, and I don't think they'd care very much about moveset potential. Not when they kept coming back to ask Sakurai to add Steve Minecraft over and over again.

I'll also say that it's kinda hard to just say "(X) has a better shot than (Y) in all circumstances" when there isn't an end-all be-all criteria. Let's say Nintendo wants someone big and recognizable. In this scenario, then yes, Shadow is more likely. On the other hand, what if Nintendo wants to promote an upcoming release. Based on past precedent with the promo picks, a first-party like Ayumi is more likely. It's not black-and-white like that.

And as some constructive criticism, try to make your posts more concise. Most people are used to reading posts that are about three paragraphs at the most. When your replies go on for about five paragraphs, people tend to feel daunted, and glaze over the really long post unless it's a neutral, informative post and not an argumentative one. Basically, less is more and shorter posts get the point across more easily.

When I mentioned moveset potential, I didn't mean to say that would be a massive deterrent against Ayumi on it's own. but in comparison to other characters, from Sakurai's point of view, it's gonna be a factor

If it ever came down to Shadow vs Ayumi for whatever reason, Choosing to develop Ayumi over Shadow is gonna be a case of more work for less reward. while Minecraft took a long while to conceptualize a moveset, it was obviously worth the effort since at the time of choosing, it was one of the most high-selling and popular games out there, and Steve himself was very requested character. In this case, why choose to develop Ayumi, who comes from a game that makes it harder and time-consuming to conceptualize a moveset than usual, and a game that has more niche appeal and has no recent data of previous success, over a Character like Shadow, who comes from a Popular and relevant franchise, been very requested character, with 2 decades worth of usable content of moveset, along with a base to use in Sonic (though I don't think it would end up being clone scenario)

And the reason I'm so down on Ayumi is that even from a Promotion standpoint, Ayumi is most likely too big of a risk to gamble on. Corrin, Byleth, Min-Min, and Pyra/Mythra all had data to show that their franchise and/or games have seen success, which is something Ayumi doesn't have right now. There's a reason back in Smash 4, they decided to go with Fire Emblem as the promotion, and not Xenoblade Chroncles X, as Awakening brought the franchise to big heights, while Xenoblade as a franchise was more niche at that point.

It might even just be better to Promote a game from a 3rd party franchise, like Sonic, since Sonic has at least shown good sales data on Nintendo for years and years

I will take your constructive criticism to heart though. I do have alot to say usually so it's gonna be kind of hard to narrow down posts

 

[GoodGrief741]

Another hypothetical scenario: How would everyone react if another Fire Emblem character (such as Reginn from FEH) were to be revealed at E3, especially if the other DLC is NOT revealed there, too? I'd be disappointed due to getting tired of all the FE milking.

If it's Lyn we cool

If it's anyone else, especially someone from Heroes, I don't see how that wouldn't go down in history as one of the worst Smash reveals ever lol

 

[chocolatejr9]

It's because I'm a little mad

Like I said, I don't usually really get up in arms about the characters we talk about and what people feel are likely. with Ayumi though, I really don't understand why she's getting as much talk as she is getting right now, when really she has all the elements against her.

So I had to see what people felt about her, compared to a Popular and Iconic character like Shadow. I just had to see if people really didn't have high hopes for Shadow's chances, and it seems that yes, People really don't feel too high about Shadow's chances if Ayumi Tachibana is seen as more likely than him. I find it kind of frustrating personally



I can't just keep quiet on Shadow though. the reason I put him in such a favorable light is that most people don't give him the time of day and just cast him in unfavorable light all the time, when there are actual counter arguments against some of the cons on his likelihood. I'm like the equalizer in this regard

The Assist thing is hard because many people won't be convinced unless an actual promotion were to happen, but alot of these responses are now being geared more towards people that are open to Assist Promotions, and mention how the Merits of the actual character is the main thing to consider

I understand if people find Eggman and Tails to be more likely, but Shadow also has reason to be in the conversation, as he is the 2nd most popular character, was the main showcase in the game that brought Sonic to Nintendo audiences, Has been the most requested Sonic character alot of the time (in more casual circles), is the Head of Sonic team (or Studio) favorite character, and is still a Relevant and Iconic character in general.

and Shadow should not just be seen as Echo Fodder. Shadow on his own merits is closer to Sephiroth than a character like Dark Samus. Shadow and Dark Samus both have the capabilities to be their own characters, but unlike Dark Samus, Shadow doesn't have any drawbacks that would prevent him from not being seen as his own character, and as said, as Merits comparable to Sephiroth in terms of Iconic status, popularity, etc

In regards to the reality of the situation, Sephiroth was not seen in a favorable light, as many people did not give him the time of day before he got in. I did not have him in active predictions, but I still saw him as viable candidate for FP2, and there were some actively predicting him, but many others just disregarded him despite his pedigree




When I mentioned moveset potential, I didn't mean to say that would be a massive deterrent against Ayumi on it's own. but in comparison to other characters, from Sakurai's point of view, it's gonna be a factor

If it ever came down to Shadow vs Ayumi for whatever reason, Choosing to develop Ayumi over Shadow is gonna be a case of more work for less reward. while Minecraft took a long while to conceptualize a moveset, it was obviously worth the effort since at the time of choosing, it was one of the most high-selling and popular games out there, and Steve himself was very requested character. In this case, why choose to develop Ayumi, who comes from a game that makes it harder and time-consuming to conceptualize a moveset than usual, and a game that has more niche appeal and has no recent data of previous success, over a Character like Shadow, who comes from a Popular and relevant franchise, been very requested character, with 2 decades worth of usable content of moveset, along with a base to use in Sonic (though I don't think it would end up being clone scenario)

And the reason I'm so down on Ayumi is that even from a Promotion standpoint, Ayumi is most likely too big of a risk to gamble on. Corrin, Byleth, Min-Min, and Pyra/Mythra all had data to show that their franchise and/or games have seen success, which is something Ayumi doesn't have right now. There's a reason back in Smash 4, they decided to go with Fire Emblem as the promotion, and not Xenoblade Chroncles X, as Awakening brought the franchise to big heights, while Xenoblade as a franchise was more niche at that point.

It might even just be better to Promote a game from a 3rd party franchise, like Sonic, since Sonic has at least shown good sales data on Nintendo for years and years

I will take your constructive criticism to heart though. I do have alot to say usually so it's gonna be kind of hard to narrow down posts

You are... really into this, aren't you?

I mean, I don't wanna be THAT person, but... Ayumi's the one getting a new game(s), even if they're remakes. That alone makes her more likely than Shadow, especially if Nintendo decides they want a character from a Switch game that people will be playing at the time like with Byleth.

 

[Shroob]

It's because I'm a little mad

Like I said, I don't usually really get up in arms about the characters we talk about and what people feel are likely. with Ayumi though, I really don't understand why she's getting as much talk as she is getting right now, when really she has all the elements against her.

So I had to see what people felt about her, compared to a Popular and Iconic character like Shadow. I just had to see if people really didn't have high hopes for Shadow's chances, and it seems that yes, People really don't feel too high about Shadow's chances if Ayumi Tachibana is seen as more likely than him. I find it kind of frustrating personally



I can't just keep quiet on Shadow though. the reason I put him in such a favorable light is that most people don't give him the time of day and just cast him in unfavorable light all the time, when there are actual counter arguments against some of the cons on his likelihood. I'm like the equalizer in this regard

The Assist thing is hard because many people won't be convinced unless an actual promotion were to happen, but alot of these responses are now being geared more towards people that are open to Assist Promotions, and mention how the Merits of the actual character is the main thing to consider

I understand if people find Eggman and Tails to be more likely, but Shadow also has reason to be in the conversation, as he is the 2nd most popular character, was the main showcase in the game that brought Sonic to Nintendo audiences, Has been the most requested Sonic character alot of the time (in more casual circles), is the Head of Sonic team (or Studio) favorite character, and is still a Relevant and Iconic character in general.

and Shadow should not just be seen as Echo Fodder. Shadow on his own merits is closer to Sephiroth than a character like Dark Samus. Shadow and Dark Samus both have the capabilities to be their own characters, but unlike Dark Samus, Shadow doesn't have any drawbacks that would prevent him from not being seen as his own character, and as said, as Merits comparable to Sephiroth in terms of Iconic status, popularity, etc

In regards to the reality of the situation, Sephiroth was not seen in a favorable light, as many people did not give him the time of day before he got in. I did not have him in active predictions, but I still saw him as viable candidate for FP2, and there were some actively predicting him, but many others just disregarded him despite his pedigree

7, babe, it ain't just Shadow. Trust me, if Shadow wasn't an assist, people would be a lot more open to him, but as it stands, he's an assist trophy, and we have no way if knowing if that 100% deconfirms. Most people lean on yes it does, which is why soo many people have him as a bleak outlook.

Now, if Shadow wasn't, then sure, more people would be open to the idea, but if you're only just now seeing that others don't have high hopes for him, well, it's not just him, to be frank.


And also, I'd say comparing him to Sephiroth is a bit... disingenuous. One has an active role in the game already, the other had nothing in the game. You'd be better off comparing him to Min Min, or P/M, not Sephiroth.

 

[Lamperouge]

Another hypothetical scenario: How would everyone react if another Fire Emblem character (such as Reginn from FEH) were to be revealed at E3, especially if the other DLC is NOT revealed there, too? I'd be disappointed due to getting tired of all the FE milking.

If it's Lyn, I win.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I mean

I went into Ultimate hoping for Fiora, one of my ballot picks

she got Chrom’d day 1

so I went for my backups - Neku, my other non-veteran ballot pick, and Elma

and it doesn’t look like either have a good shot either

So now I’m just hoping one of my new support pickups (Octoling, LoL, Reimu) make it

 

[perfectchaos83]

I do agree, but with the caveat that she would've had very little notability outside Japan when FP2 was chosen. That's what makes me hesitant re: Ayumi (or any FDC character) - for a while the FDC remake was scheduled to be Japan-exclusive, and only after a while did they announce an international release.

It's very possible that an international was always planned from the outset. However, like SharkLord said, localizing a game like that is always a challenge due to the sheer amount of text involved. The caveat, at least in my opinion, is that the game was delayed in Japan and a few months later it was announced for a worldwide release. I don't think that it would have been that quick to fast track a localization of that calibur that quickly and it was probably in the works for awhile with the JP version taking the delay just to stick with a simultaneous release. It's quite clear that Nintendo really wants to do worldwide releases now, likely because it means that their departments world wide can largely be on the same page instead of the non-JP branches being 5-6 months behind.

Not that it means anything for Smash, just something I wanted to bring up.

 

[Gengar84]

I mean

I went into Ultimate hoping for Fiora, one of my ballot picks

she got Chrom’d day 1

so I went for my backups - Neku, my other non-veteran ballot pick, and Elma

and it doesn’t look like either have a good shot either

So now I’m just hoping one of my new support pickups (Octoling, LoL, Reimu) make it

I’m sorry to hear that. I was fortunate enough to get K. Rool, who I voted for on the ballot, and Sephiroth, who is one of my favorite game characters ever. I also really like Ridley and Joker. I hope you can get at least someone you feel the same way about.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I forgot to add KOS-MOS (and T-elos) to my new support pickups

then again, Namco is allergic to adding anyone after PAC-MAN to Smash apparently

 

[7NATOR]

7, babe, it ain't just Shadow. Trust me, if Shadow wasn't an assist, people would be a lot more open to him, but as it stands, he's an assist trophy, and we have no way if knowing if that 100% deconfirms. Most people lean on yes it does, which is why soo many people have him as a bleak outlook.

Now, if Shadow wasn't, then sure, more people would be open to the idea, but if you're only just now seeing that others don't have high hopes for him, well, it's not just him, to be frank.


And also, I'd say comparing him to Sephiroth is a bit... disingenuous. One has an active role in the game already, the other had nothing in the game. You'd be better off comparing him to Min Min, or P/M, not Sephiroth.

This is Exactly one of the reasons that I think Shadow being an Assist is not as much of a downer as people might make it out to be

Sephiroth did not have an active role before he got into FP2...which meant that him being absent from the game up until then did not turn heads, and there was no reason for Nintendo or Sakurai to negotiate a role for him in Base game in 2015

Shadow however has been in Smash in some from since Brawl, and Shadow is not a character that has any reason to have their role downgraded. Notice how for the Assists that didn't return, they were usually some of the least popular ones, or at least not as popular as the ones that got to stay. In Ultimate Tingle, Magnus, Saki got cut as Assists. If Shadow has his Assist Cut, that would be showcasing him in the same light as those characters, when in reality Shadow is not on their level but above, it would just be weird

So when they decided to negotiate for the Sonic content in 2015, when DLC wasn't even a factor at that point, and wouldn't be until 3 years later, they would negotiate for Shadow to return since it be weird for him to have no presence in the game, since he has had one in the past.

And yes he was added as an Assist Trophy in the base game and not a playable character, but so wasn't Sephiroth, who had to wait until FP2 to get into the Playable roster.

Imagine if Nintendo decided not to do DLC at all for Ultimate, but they didn't negotiated Shadow to have an Assist in the base game. It would be a weird absence for Shadow of all characters to be downgraded in role. on the other hand, if Sephiroth was missing from the game, There's no weirdness with that, and there wasn't from the time the base game released to the time Sephiroth was announced

Base game was negotiated for years before DLC was ever negotiated for, and being a 3rd party franchise, Sonic content would have to be negotiated in the beginning and can't just be added later, as that's too much of a risk with how you need to work with the 3rd party on the content in Smash.

 

[Shroob]

This is Exactly one of the reasons that I think Shadow being an Assist is not as much of a downer as people might make it out to be

Sephiroth did not have an active role before he got into FP2...which meant that him being absent from the game up until then did not turn heads, and there was no reason for Nintendo or Sakurai to negotiate a role for him in Base game in 2015

Shadow however has been in Smash in some from since Brawl, and Shadow is not a character that has any reason to have their role downgraded. Notice how for the Assists that didn't return, they were usually some of the least popular ones, or at least not as popular as the ones that got to stay. In Ultimate Tingle, Magnus, Saki got cut as Assists. If Shadow has his Assist Cut, that would be showcasing him in the same light as those characters, when in reality Shadow is not on their level but above, it would just be weird

So when they decided to negotiate for the Sonic content in 2015, when DLC wasn't even a factor at that point, and wouldn't be until 3 years later, they would negotiate for Shadow to return since it be weird for him to have no presence in the game, since he has had one in the past.

And yes he was added as an Assist Trophy in the base game and not a playable character, but so wasn't Sephiroth, who had to wait until FP2 to get into the Playable roster.

Imagine if Nintendo decided not to do DLC at all for Ultimate, but they didn't negotiated Shadow to have an Assist in the base game. It would be a weird absence for Shadow of all characters to be downgraded in role. on the other hand, if Sephiroth was missing from the game, There's no weirdness with that, and there wasn't from the time the base game released to the time Sephiroth was announced

Base game was negotiated for years before DLC was ever negotiated for, and being a 3rd party franchise, Sonic content would have to be negotiated in the beginning and can't just be added later, as that's too much of a risk with how you need to work with the 3rd party on the content in Smash.

I.... don't follow this logic at all tbh.

If they negotiated Sonic content alongside base game, that means that they negotiated Shadow to be an assist trophy back then.


Sephiroth getting in in no way has any bearings on Shadow's chances. Sephiroth was negotiated for some time before FF7R came out, and considering all that he brought with him, it would seem like he was negotiated for fairly early on.

 

[Technomage]

Hey guys, after learning that Little Nightmares (videos of which I've been getting interested in) is actually published by Namco. So, how would Six or Mono work as fighters, and what would the LN stage be like?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just to point out, Tingle's assist being gone is simply because he's got a new role in the game, being back in the stage Great Bay. Considering the MM version is more popular among the West, it's not really a downgrade. He's an annoying AT, but the actual stage hazard is far less annoying and a more popular version of the character too. He's only actively disliked in WW anyway. And his later Toon-style appearances also spun-off three games for him.

He's not unpopular in general, though the West did not like him in WW and it tainted him for many. This is possibly why they chose his MM version for HW later on. It also would make that Tingle's first playable role in the West coincidentally(since none of his games were in the US).

 

[Shroob]

Just to point out, Tingle's assist being gone is simply because he's got a new role in the game, being back in the stage Great Bay. Considering the MM version is more popular among the West, it's not really a downgrade. He's an annoying AT, but the actual stage hazard is far less annoying and a more popular version of the character too. He's only actively disliked in WW anyway. And his later Toon-style appearances also spun-off three games for him.

He's not unpopular in general, though the West did not like him in WW and it tainted him for many. This is possibly why they chose his MM version for HW later on. It also would make that Tingle's first playable role in the West coincidentally(since none of his games were in the US).

Alfonzo volunteered, but he was too heavy.


"Tingle has returned to his old job on Great Bay, so he won't be an assist trophy."

Alfonzo, "Sorry, leave it to me to mess this up!"

 

[ZelDan]

Even if ATs are on the table for FP2, I think one huge problem for Shadow is that he has some very steep competition within the Sonic franchise.

If they wanted a non-protagonist character from Sonic, then there's Eggman, who quite frankly I think would be more likely to be added over Shadow, unless they were only able to fit in a clone/semi-clone for the Sonic Franchise.

There's also Tails and Knuckles, both who have existed longer and could also work as atleast semi-clones too I believe (I haven't played SOnic beyond the classic games and Mania though so I maybe I'm missing something). So I wouldn't be surprised if either or both of these characters had priority over Shadow too.

 

[7NATOR]

I.... don't follow this logic at all tbh.

If they negotiated Sonic content alongside base game, that means that they negotiated Shadow to be an assist trophy back then.


Sephiroth getting in in no way has any bearings on Shadow's chances. Sephiroth was negotiated for some time before FF7R came out, and considering all that he brought with him, it would seem like he was negotiated for fairly early on.

Yes, if they negotiated Sonic Content alongside base game, they negotiated Shadow to be an Assist Trophy and a spirit

the Logic is that even if they wanted Shadow as playable sometime in the future, if they weren't gonna put him immediately in the base roster, then his absence as an Assist Trophy would have been seen as weird if they didn't negotiate him as an Assist during Base roster

The reason Sephiroth has any bearing is that

-He had no active role in the past before his inclusion in FP2, as such, it wouldn't be weird if Sephiroth was completely absent, unlike Shadow
-Sephiroth, despite his pedigree, had to wait till FP2 to be included as Playable, so if you want to use the argument that Shadow should have just been added as playable if they were planning on that, just know that Sephiroth also had to wait

DLC was not factored into development until sometime after January of 2018, long after everything in Base game was negotiated for. there was probably talks before things, as can be seen with Steve, but many things can be talked about and not lead to anything, and it would be unwise to develop something in a way to account for something that's not guaranteed

That's why I'm saying that Shadow being an Assist Trophy is likely not as much of a downer as people make it out to be

 

[SharkLord]

It's because I'm a little mad

Like I said, I don't usually really get up in arms about the characters we talk about and what people feel are likely. with Ayumi though, I really don't understand why she's getting as much talk as she is getting right now, when really she has all the elements against her.

So I had to see what people felt about her, compared to a Popular and Iconic character like Shadow. I just had to see if people really didn't have high hopes for Shadow's chances, and it seems that yes, People really don't feel too high about Shadow's chances if Ayumi Tachibana is seen as more likely than him. I find it kind of frustrating personally

At this point, the best solution is to just agree to disagree. Everyone has different opinions, decided by different standards and criteria. Some people look for promo picks, some people look for legacy. Some people think region-centric status is the worst curse you could have in the context of Smash, some people think being an Assist Trophy is. Some people naturally lean towards Scrimblo Bimblos, others look for Popular McJRPG guys. Everyone looks at things differently, and at this point I think those beliefs are locked in.

If you're getting frustrated because people have different views on who's likely and who's not, it's best to just take two steps back and take a breather. If Shadow's in, he's in. If he's not, he's not. Smash has gotten too big to truly know what's in store, and everyone's got different thoughts and prediction on what's next. It's not something worth getting worked up about.

 

[N3ON]

I can't just keep quiet on Shadow though. the reason I put him in such a favorable light is that most people don't give him the time of day and just cast him in unfavorable light all the time, when there are actual counter arguments against some of the cons on his likelihood. I'm like the equalizer in this regard

The Assist thing is hard because many people won't be convinced unless an actual promotion were to happen, but alot of these responses are now being geared more towards people that are open to Assist Promotions, and mention how the Merits of the actual character is the main thing to consider

I understand if people find Eggman and Tails to be more likely, but Shadow also has reason to be in the conversation, as he is the 2nd most popular character, was the main showcase in the game that brought Sonic to Nintendo audiences, Has been the most requested Sonic character alot of the time (in more casual circles), is the Head of Sonic team (or Studio) favorite character, and is still a Relevant and Iconic character in general.

and Shadow should not just be seen as Echo Fodder. Shadow on his own merits is closer to Sephiroth than a character like Dark Samus. Shadow and Dark Samus both have the capabilities to be their own characters, but unlike Dark Samus, Shadow doesn't have any drawbacks that would prevent him from not being seen as his own character, and as said, as Merits comparable to Sephiroth in terms of Iconic status, popularity, etc

In regards to the reality of the situation, Sephiroth was not seen in a favorable light, as many people did not give him the time of day before he got in. I did not have him in active predictions, but I still saw him as viable candidate for FP2, and there were some actively predicting him, but many others just disregarded him despite his pedigree

You're only equalizing things if the conversation was previously speaking down on Shadow and you provide the counterpoint. If people aren't talking about him at all, which is usually the case, then constantly bringing him up doesn't equalize, it tips things heavily one way, which isn't going to do you any favours.

And let's be real, you're not trying to be the counterbalance. You're the cheerleader. If everyone were super gung-ho on Shadow, you wouldn't be devil's advocate and raising points against him. If you ask a cheerleader who's going to win, they're not going to say the other team.

And that's why people are best left to draw their own conclusions. Because hopefully they've much less skin in the game, and therefore can look at things impartially. And impartially, the reason Eggman gets broached more than the others is because he's the only one currently unaccounted for. It's not like we spend time talking about Tails or Knuckles either. There are dozens of other, good characters with existing roles. If you're a big believer of promotions, why not embrace the "equal" part of equalizer and raise more than the same one over and again?

 

[PeridotGX]

Y'know, more than anything I'm realizing the question of Ayumi vs. Shadow is just weirdly specific. They're owned by different companies, they have different aesthetics, they're from different genres, and they're overall in much different situations. I think the real question here is why we're debating Ayumi and Shadow specifically, and not something like Shadow vs. another Sega character or Ayumi vs another region-centric character.

"taking a shot every time 7Nator mentions Shadow the Hedgehog" is the way the death penalty is enacted in 17 states. A new jersey man died from it, and he was drinking lemonade.

As for Ayumi, I don't know.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Technically, couldn't they have kept Tingle's assist and just have it always be disabled on Great Bay like the Moon?

 

[Technomage]

Technically, couldn't they have kept Tingle's assist and just have it always be disabled on Great Bay like the Moon?

I don't think that'd even be needed, since MM Tingle and WW Tingle are two different people.

 

[Shroob]

Yes, if they negotiated Sonic Content alongside base game, they negotiated Shadow to be an Assist Trophy and a spirit

the Logic is that even if they wanted Shadow as playable sometime in the future, if they weren't gonna put him immediately in the base roster, then his absence as an Assist Trophy would have been seen as weird if they didn't negotiate him as an Assist during Base roster

The reason Sephiroth has any bearing is that

-He had no active role in the past before his inclusion in FP2, as such, it wouldn't be weird if Sephiroth was completely absent, unlike Shadow
-Sephiroth, despite his pedigree, had to wait till FP2 to be included as Playable, so if you want to use the argument that Shadow should have just been added as playable if they were planning on that, just know that Sephiroth also had to wait

DLC was not factored into development until sometime after January of 2018, long after everything in Base game was negotiated for. there was probably talks before things, as can be seen with Steve, but many things can be talked about and not lead to anything, and it would be unwise to develop something in a way to account for something that's not guaranteed

That's why I'm saying that Shadow being an Assist Trophy is likely not as much of a downer as people make it out to be

I mean, DLC was being talked about before the game came out though, and outright worked on, so at least for FP1, it absolutely was being taken into consideration during development.


We have the day 1 game code that shows Plant, Joker, and Hero were all being worked on before the game came out, and after Sakurai announced that we'd be getting a Fighter's pass, that every character had been decided already.


Your logic feels very "What-if" focused, like, "Well, if Shadow had been absent, it would have been suspicious!", and sure, it would have, but he wasn't absent, he was in the game. This sounds like, I'm going to regret saying this, the Geno fanbase thinking that Geno's costume being absent for soo long was a guaranteed meaning that Geno was coming.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Technically, couldn't they have kept Tingle's assist and just have it always be disabled on Great Bay like the Moon?

Wasn't Hyrule Warriors Definitive Edition on the Switch? If so, that's the one used. Likely it was the only design promotable at the time.

And the other one saw less usage lately, so it was just easier to go with the active design. You are right it would've been that easy, but there's probably a behind the scenes factor for why he didn't return beyond the Stage giving him a different role. Considering the Moon can't appear on the stage as an AT, it's already the case.

 

[Shroob]

Wasn't Hyrule Warriors Definitive Edition on the Switch? If so, that's the one used. Likely it was the only design promotable at the time.

And the other one saw less usage lately, so it was just easier to go with the active design. You are right it would've been that easy, but there's probably a behind the scenes factor for why he didn't return beyond the Stage giving him a different role. Considering the Moon can't appear on the stage as an AT, it's already the case.

It feels like one of those funny Smash logic scenarios.


Can't have Conductor Link on Spirit Tracks when Toon Link is playable, despite them being different Links.

Can't have Alucard on Wii Fit Studio, because lolvampireshadows.

Or like how they removed Knuckles from the BG of Green Hill Zone since he's an Assist now.

 

[kylexv]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/XcaXVK9uAI

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 14, 2021

 

[Shroob]

Pic of the Day:

pic.twitter.com/XcaXVK9uAI

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 14, 2021

Long....live...the king.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It feels like one of those funny Smash logic scenarios.


Can't have Conductor Link on Spirit Tracks when Toon Link is playable, despite them being different Links.

Can't have Alucard on Wii Fit Studio, because lolvampireshadows.

Or like how they removed Knuckles from the BG of Green Hill Zone since he's an Assist now.

Worth noting that Toon Link is actually a design choice. He's listed as from Spirit Tracks too. But yes, they do that often. I actually argued Toon Link wasn't cut cause Conductor Link is a different person on another forum. ...Coincidentally they're the same Toon Link in Smash(since it's about the design, not the particular game they're from, unlike Young Link who is supposed to be OOT/MM only. It's the odd English version of Melee that suggests he's from other games. This explains his stage and abilities quite well). In other words, my argument on that forum wasn't relevant to Toon Link, but I was right about him coming back despite that. Now, why on earth regular Link caused Conductor Link to disappear is an odd one. Apparently any Link will do that for some reason, not just the one specifically meant to represent all the Toon-style games. ._.; That said, I don't know if that's the case in Ultimate. If all three Link versions do that, then fair enough. Though really, where's my Conductor Link costume, dagnabbit!

My point anyway was that Tingle wasn't outright removed. Not that his AT couldn't still easily be in without causing issues, heh.

 

[Dukefire]

You mean

Long....Live.....the Ice Climbers

 

[Ivander]

Long....live...the king.

At least the first reply here to that wasn't the same as the first reply on the tweet.

 

[Shroob]

At least the first reply here to that wasn't the same as the first reply on the tweet.

You mean the Sonic one, right?


Yeeeeeeeah.

 

[N3ON]

I know people were talking about Nintendo's silence on their E3 plans earlier. Here's, ostensibly, a window when we should expect clarification:

This is also in reference to Microsoft.

 

[Ivander]

You mean the Sonic one, right?


Yeeeeeeeah.

Not the one I was referring to. Now I'm questioning if the previous one I saw was better in the first place.

 

[Shroob]

I know people were talking about Nintendo's silence on their E3 plans earlier. Here's, ostensibly, a window when we should expect clarification:

View attachment 315110

This is also in reference to Microsoft.

Considering there's only 2 weeks left in May, makes sense.


Wow, we're already halfway through May.

 

[7NATOR]

You're only equalizing things if the conversation was previously speaking down on Shadow and you provide the counterpoint. If people aren't talking about him at all, which is usually the case, then constantly bringing him up doesn't equalize, it tips things heavily one way, which isn't going to do you any favours.

And let's be real, you're not trying to be the counterbalance. You're the cheerleader. If everyone were super gung-ho on Shadow, you wouldn't be devil's advocate and raising points against him. If you ask a cheerleader who's going to win, they're not going to say the other team.

And that's why people are best left to draw their own conclusions. Because hopefully they've much less skin in the game, and therefore can look at things impartially. And impartially, the reason Eggman gets broached more than the others is because he's the only one currently unaccounted for. It's not like we spend time talking about Tails or Knuckles either. There are dozens of other, good characters with existing roles. If you're a big believer of promotions, why not embrace the "equal" part of equalizer and raise more than the same one over and again?

I guess I would be seen more as a balancer if people were actively just circlejerking in calling Shadow an unlikely character in actual posts. I do tend to start the conversations, but it's more like I can sense the energy, that Shadow is seen as a lost cause, and I like to give my reasons why there's good reason Shadow is still alive in the conversation, and maybe hope that people might see the other side. but honestly most of this is for me. Talking about Shadow in Smash is something i find very exciting to do, and I can't just keep all the ideas and reasons in my head. I also like to give my speculation in general

In any case, I have been critical of Shadow before you know. From the time when Smash ultimate released, till the time Extra DLC was announced, I had given up on Shadow because I know when to call it quits

I've also noted that other characters certain points more in favor of them then Shadow, including other Sonic characters. It would be foolish of me to say that Shadow is more Casually known than Tails for example. I know more people are gonna know of Tails than Shadow, and I know Eggman, Tails, & Knuckles have been around longer. I've also even in the past given reasons why Shadow being an Assist could matter in the decision process. I don't think Shadow being an Assist is a non-factor, I just think that it's a factor that Shadow can overcome

I have mentioned other Potential promotions in the past and sometimes even now. I've talked about Waluigi, Bomberman, Shovel Knight, and Isaac in the past. I've speculated on the potential of Undertale getting a fighter despite Sans being a Mii costume in the latter half of FP1

I will admit, I do tend to be much more postive about Shadow's chances than negative, you got me on that one.

I mean, DLC was being talked about before the game came out though, and outright worked on, so at least for FP1, it absolutely was being taken into consideration during development.


We have the day 1 game code that shows Plant, Joker, and Hero were all being worked on before the game came out, and after Sakurai announced that we'd be getting a Fighter's pass, that every character had been decided already.


Your logic feels very "What-if" focused, like, "Well, if Shadow had been absent, it would have been suspicious!", and sure, it would have, but he wasn't absent, he was in the game. This sounds like, I'm going to regret saying this, the Geno fanbase thinking that Geno's costume being absent for soo long was a guaranteed meaning that Geno was coming.

DLC was talked about before the game came out, that's a fact. but there's a difference between DLC being talked about and DLC actually being negotiated for, and a Difference between the years of 2017/2018, and 2015

Characters like Steve who would end up being DLC later on were talked about in 2015, but just because Steve was talked about then doesn't mean that actual negotiations or Legal signings took place back then. Everything has to be settled in place before everything is signed off and things start being planned for development, and we see it took a long time for Minecraft conceptualized in full, since we got Banjo before we got the character that led to Banjo getting in

When the Project Plan and Base roster was decided back in 2015, DLC was not a factor. Sakurai has outright said in an article that DLC wasn't decided to be developed until sometime after January of 2018, so until that point, any talks of potential DLC were just talks and not a surefire thing to happen, and anything that was negotiated for the base game in 2015, including the Sonic content in the Base game, was made with the intention that the base game might have been it for Ultimate, especially since the DLc was planned without the Developer's will

Lots of Smash Bros. tidbits from Sakurai - DLC talk, Goku unlikely, not thinking about another ballot, more - Nintendo Everything

I know people were talking about Nintendo's silence on their E3 plans earlier. Here's, ostensibly, a window when we should expect clarification:

View attachment 315110

This is also in reference to Microsoft.

Is this strictly about their E3 Plans, or is there anything else that this statement could mean?

 

[TheBeastHimself]

The only reason I'm iffy on Shadow, for this game specifically, is because if any AT gets a promotion, it's likely going to be Waluigi. Waluigi fans, for better or for worse, had a huge outcry to the point where Reggie said:

"We look at all of the feedback and share with the devs and certainly Mr. Sakurai will be aware of the groundswell of support that appeared for Waluigi."

Waluigi also has the benefit of being a first party character, so it's not like negotiations have to be made again. I'd like Shadow too, but I don't think it's happening.

 

[SharkLord]

The only reason I'm iffy on Shadow, for this game specifically, is because if any AT gets a promotion, it's likely going to be Waluigi. Waluigi fans, for better or for worse, had a huge outcry to the point where Reggie said:

"We look at all of the feedback and share with the devs and certainly Mr. Sakurai will be aware of the groundswell of support that appeared for Waluigi."

Waluigi also has the benefit of being a first party character, so it's not like negotiations have to be made again. I'd like Shadow too, but I don't think it's happening.

To be fair, I'm not sure we would've called Persona 5 before Tales or Dragon Quest for JRPGs, or Min Min as our first Spirit promotion. Basically, I'm saying it's better to consider multiple options instead of singling out only one.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

To be fair, I'm not sure we would've called Persona 5 before Tales or Dragon Quest for JRPGs, or Min Min as our first Spirit promotion. Basically, I'm saying it's better to consider multiple options instead of singling out only one.

I mean I'm certainly open to multiple possibilities because theoretically anything can happen in terms of promotions, but that's just my stance for the moment. Just because we have actual confirmation that Waluigi support made it to the often deaf ears of Nintendo, and he'd be an easier inclusion to do.

A bit of a close-minded stance I'll admit, but certainly one I would not die on a hill for. I'm down for whatever.

 

[Shroob]

Monkey's Paw

Sakurai promotes an Assist Trophy

Monkey's Paw curls

It's Andross
They don't shrink him