Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Mr. Game + Watch]

This is my updated wants for the rest of the fighter pass. (Removed Doomguy and added jak and Daxter) Feel free to give ur thoughts on it and plz ignore my crappy editing. (Did this on some phone app)

 

[Evil Trapezium]

You go into the Options, select Smash, and put Echoes with their Base Fighter and Done!

Nope nah. I think filling up the roster with four more characters and three more stages would solve the problem.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Nope nah. I think filling up the roster with four more characters and three more stages would solve the problem.

You could always mod your game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Melee clones are not Echoes either. Sakurai has actually made it clear there's differences, acknowledging it by noting Ken being an Echo and Dr. Mario being a Clone is somewhat arbitrary. They're officially different terms.

Only Dr. Mario could legitimately come close, but this only shows all the more reason he's not labeled one. Ganondorf is most definitely not anywhere close to an Echo. There is no "Melee-style Echo", cause it's a term created for a subset of clones introduced in Ultimate. Roy is even closer than some others, but Ganondorf, Young Link, Falco, and Pichu are different bodyshapes, with Young Link being so different he can't have the moniker(Pichu even has a different bodyshape too. This is why the Project M Team made it clear he can't be a costume like Dr. Mario was. In fact, nobody else could be but Dr. Mario due to different bodyshapes).

Or in other words; All Echoes are a type of clone. All Clones are not a type of echo.

Isabelle, for the record, is a clone of sorts(albeit, the unused term officially, "semi-clone"), but she could not ever be an Echo anyway. I'm not sure if she could even if it was New Leaf Villager's design. The different kind of feet and hands might've been part of it too, but I feel like that's less important. Yes, they would stand at different heights(...though with that in mind, that even more makes it clear they're still a different bodyshape).

 

[PeridotGX]

My brain has no idea who it is, but my heart is filled with DETERMINATION, hopes, and dreams.

 

[Nekoo]

My brain has no idea who it is, but my heart is filled with DETERMINATION, hopes, and dreams.

Yeah, I too agree that Goku might be in since thoses are the value DBZ shares.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

You could always mod your game.

Nah I don't want solutions. I want a excuse to moan about not having a Fighter Pass 3.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Melee clones are not Echoes either. Sakurai has actually made it clear there's differences, acknowledging it by noting Ken being an Echo and Dr. Mario being a Clone is somewhat arbitrary. They're officially different terms.

Only Dr. Mario could legitimately come close, but this only shows all the more reason he's not labeled one. Ganondorf is most definitely not anywhere close to an Echo. There is no "Melee-style Echo", cause it's a term created for a subset of clones introduced in Ultimate. Roy is even closer than some others, but Ganondorf, Young Link, Falco, and Pichu are different bodyshapes, with Young Link being so different he can't have the moniker(Pichu even has a different bodyshape too. This is why the Project M Team made it clear he can't be a costume like Dr. Mario was. In fact, nobody else could be but Dr. Mario due to different bodyshapes).

Or in other words; All Echoes are a type of clone. All Clones are not a type of echo.

Isabelle, for the record, is a clone of sorts(albeit, the unused term officially, "semi-clone"), but she could not ever be an Echo anyway. I'm not sure if she could even if it was New Leaf Villager's design. The different kind of feet and hands might've been part of it too, but I feel like that's less important. Yes, they would stand at different heights(...though with that in mind, that even more makes it clear they're still a different bodyshape).

Melee Clones aren't officially considered Echoes, but I would personally consider their Melee States Echoes. They were all De-Cloned from there, mostly via Animation for Young Link and Pichu, Moveset for Falco, Ganondorf, and Roy, and Dr. Mario is the least changed. Dr. Mario is Ken Tier in my opinion. He has the amount of differences Ken has, a Borderline Semi-Clone, and the only thing preventing him from being an Echo is the fact that he was in Melee.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

My wants are Monster Hunter, Reimu, Amaterasu, SMT rep, or Crash

Though for expectations, I could see it being either Dante, Phoenix Wright, Chun-li, another Pokemon, or no character reveal today with an announcement of a smash direct at a later date.

 

[Paraster]

All right, here's my final pre-Direct predictions for the last 3 fighters. I have two different versions. Order doesn't matter for either version; any of my speculated fighters could be today.

Spoiler: Images

I've explained Euden and Quote here and Reimu and Gordon here.
Crash is really only here because I initially planned to have Gordon in the Quote version as well, but decided they probably wouldn't like two "gunner" characters in the same pass, and I couldn't come up with any other predictions that stood out to me, so I went with one of the current most popular picks.
I would have put Reimu and Quote together, but similar to the "gunner" thing, I thought having two different Japanese indie icons in the same pass was a stretch.

Reimu render
Gordon render
Crash render

 

[BernkastelWitch]

I'm putting money on a more "Dark horse" or "Unexpected" reveal since this feels like part of the pass where we'll get someone more lowkey or a character everyone thought was unlikely or impossible due to being "small".

And I have a hard time believing we'll get a third "big name" in a row anyways after Steve and Sephiroth. It may be possible but this feels like the perfect chance to put in a more niche/regional character if they wanted to.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Melee Clones aren't officially considered Echoes, but I would personally consider their Melee States Echoes. They were all De-Cloned from there, mostly via Animation for Young Link and Pichu, Moveset for Falco, Ganondorf, and Roy, and Dr. Mario is the least changed. Dr. Mario is Ken Tier in my opinion. He has the amount of differences Ken has, a Borderline Semi-Clone, and the only thing preventing him from being an Echo is the fact that he was in Melee.

Except the term Echo exists solely in Ultimate.

They are literally and officially referred to as Clones.

There is no such thing as an Echo till Ultimate(and literally only could it loosely apply in 4, and at most, Dr. Mario still can count).

They fail to have the same bodyshapes as is. So beyond Dr. Mario, they're not "Melee style". They're just clones, because they used someone as a base and have similar movesets. Even Smash 64 did this somewhat(Mario was used for both Ness and Lucas, Samus was used for Falcon, and Kirby was used for Jigglypuff), and Sakurai never once called these clones either. Though to say the least, Luigi and Jigglypuff are close enough to be them. The other two are too far off, much like Wolf is.

Dr. Mario being in Melee isn't the only thing. He has way more attribute and move differences than Ken, which from our knowledge, attributes play some kind of role, but that's only something that Reggie said. Whether that's entirely accurate or not is unknown, but Dr. Mario and Ken are very very different regardless. The only thing in common besides using a base is same proportions. That's like it.

This is literally trying to rewrite history by using a really strange term that makes no sense, honestly. Nobody is saying Dr. Mario couldn't be an Echo necessarily(just there might be reasons why he isn't one beyond being in Melee, which does make sense). Dr. Mario did start off poorly, agreed. Funny thing is he's the only one close enough to an echo in Melee either way, since he barely is changed. The rest are too massively different to be even "close" to that.

Frankly, no, Ken isn't a borderline semi-clone. He's a borderline clone, which are much less unique than a semi-clone(Isabelle is even closer than ones like Wolf, and Ness doesn't even come close to being a semi regardless of the base. But to be fair, he shared slight animations, less than Falcon too. You see thematically similar moves here and there at best).

Again, Echoes are just a subset of clones. They don't "exist" that early on. At best only in 4, and only two characters since Dr. Mario actually had fairly different stats(more than Ken did even then in comparison) that made him stay as a regular clone.

 

[Simplythe1]

Me waking up and getting ready to head right into the direct knowing I'll probably not get who I want but glad there is a direct anyways

 

[Cutie Gwen]

SNK vs. Capcom: The Match of the Millenium is available now via the Switch eShop! https://t.co/15n75UmoID pic.twitter.com/mbCrVxczNh

— Nintendo Wire (@NinWire) February 17, 2021

Oh yeah. Y'all know what this means.


MORRIGAN HAS A SWITCH APPEARANCE THEREFORE MORRIGAN CONFIRMED

 

[Deleted member]

I'm putting money on a more "Dark horse" or "Unexpected" reveal since this feels like part of the pass where we'll get someone more lowkey or a character everyone thought was unlikely or impossible due to being "small".

And I have a hard time believing we'll get a third "big name" in a row anyways after Steve and Sephiroth. It may be possible but this feels like the perfect chance to put in a more niche/regional character if they wanted to.

I know expectations were blown with Sephiroth, but at this point who hasn't been discussed that would be unexpected or a dark horse? I'm all for it, honestly, but I feel like there isn't anyone that would fit that description without eliciting the reaction of "ok, but y tho?"

Crash, Ryu Hyabusa, Master Chief, Rayman, Chun Li, Dante, Doom Guy, KOS-MOS, Reimu, Lloyd or Yuri, Rex & Pyra, Dr. Robotnik, Shadow, Tails, and Pokemon have all been discussed for the entirety of the Fighter's Pass Speculation period (some more recent than others as time went on).

So the reveal would have to be someone who isn't one of the aforementioned characters and still be recognizable enough to have been considered, because let's face it, sure there are some of us who know and recognize Busby or Jersey Devil, but I sincerely doubt they're considering adding a character than only a handful of people recognize and actually care about. Being a Dark Horse reveal would be really hard to accomplish.

 

[Otoad64]

They are literally and officially referred to as Clones.

is the term clone actually official?


and why do you care so much about semantics anyway?

 

[SharkLord]

I will be listening to nothing but songs and remixes of Touhou and Ys until I watch that direct in hopes taht I can will Reimu and Adol into existence. Due to stuff going on, I won't be able to see it live beyond the last couple minutes, so don't be surprised if I just randomly going berserk out of nowhere at 4:00 PST-ish

 

[BernkastelWitch]

I know expectations were blown with Sephiroth, but at this point who hasn't been discussed that would be unexpected or a dark horse? I'm all for it, honestly, but I feel like there isn't anyone that would fit that description without eliciting the reaction of "ok, but y tho?"

Crash, Ryu Hyabusa, Master Chief, Rayman, Chun Li, Dante, Doom Guy, KOS-MOS, Reimu, Lloyd or Yuri, Rex & Pyra, Dr. Robotnik, Shadow, Tails, and Pokemon have all been discussed for the entirety of the Fighter's Pass Speculation period (some more recent than others as time went on).

So the reveal would have to be someone who isn't one of the aforementioned characters and still be recognizable enough to have been considered, because let's face it, sure there are some of us who know and recognize Busby or Jersey Devil, but I sincerely doubt they're considering adding a character than only a handful of people recognize and actually care about. Being a Dark Horse reveal would be really hard to accomplish.

I can kind of argue there's still a lot of people who think KOS-MOS and Reimu are "too niche for Smash" in their own words and instantly dismiss her. I still place them in dark horse category simply because there's still a portion of the fanbase who refuses to acknowledge them. Chun-Li is basically like Sephiroth here: Always a possibility but often ignored for the longest time until people realized a third party rep can have two unique characters.

Of course it seems like things changed on their reputation lately, even if it is merely that one supposed leak with Sephiroth being guessed right. But I am going by how I saw the fandom react.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Oh **** the trailer leaked. I'm gonna post it but without the embed so that people won't be spoiled by the thumbnail, though I will say, he's an unexpected yet refreshing choice

Gumshoe got a letter

Shoutouts to Catastrophic Candy™#9856 for having the idea

youtu.be

 

[Lyncario]

Oh **** the trailer leaked. I'm gonna post it but without the embed so that people won't be spoiled by the thumbnail, though I will say, he's an unexpected yet refreshing choice

Gumshoe got a letter

Shoutouts to Catastrophic Candy™#9856 for having the idea

youtu.be

Smh, I can't believe you would post such a blatantly fake leak, especialy when the actual trailer that got leaked early is right there

Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up (Official Music Video)

Rick Astley's official music video for “Never Gonna Give You Up” Subscribe to the official Rick Astley YouTube channel: https://RickAstley.lnk.to/YTSubIDFoll...

www.youtube.com

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

is the term clone actually official?


and why do you care so much about semantics anyway?

Yes. The term is official. Melee and 4 directly use it to refer to the characters who used another as a base specifically. Ganondorf by the time of Brawl stopped using that term(Semi-Clone is pretty much the same thing as a Unique Character for all we know). Melee has 6 clones, and 4 has 3 clones. Directly stated by Sakurai too. Echo is just as official, and also has a unique designation on the Smash website, to show that they are treated differently. No matter how eh the differences are. I mean, having literal hurtboxes and separate animations are enough to be an Echo too, which shows how arbitrary the requirements are beyond "same bodyshape". Daisy is bleh...

It's not semantics. They're hard terms created for Smash that have very different uses, directly by Sakurai himself. The only actual made-up term is Semi-Clone. We don't exactly know how Sakurai defines ones like Isabelle. He might just call her a Clone. He might not. He's actually confirmed that Echoes and Clones are different things overall, but has noted that the difference isn't really "that much" anyway in return. Which makes sense.

But that's also why something like a cross-series Echo is possible, since it's that loosely defined(same bodyshape is the only official statement thusfar). Not that I think it's realistic, but when you're doing an Echo, it's not about the same franchise, it's who fits them best in bodyshape first. Which makes sense. Clones operate in a similar way, same with using others as a base(which there doesn't seem to be a fanterm for ones like Ness and Falcon yet?).

 

[SKX31]

Smh, I can't believe you would post such a blatantly fake leak, especialy when the actual trailer that got leaked early is right there

Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up (Official Music Video)

Rick Astley's official music video for “Never Gonna Give You Up” Subscribe to the official Rick Astley YouTube channel: https://RickAstley.lnk.to/YTSubIDFoll...

www.youtube.com

smh I know who really is CP9.

The one who really cut down Galeem.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Smh, I can't believe you would post such a blatantly fake leak, especialy when the actual trailer that got leaked early is right there

Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up (Official Music Video)

Rick Astley's official music video for “Never Gonna Give You Up” Subscribe to the official Rick Astley YouTube channel: https://RickAstley.lnk.to/YTSubIDFoll...

www.youtube.com

smh I know who really is CP9.

The one who really cut down Galeem.

You have no clue how vindicating this meme was as Vergil was my first ****ing thought during the slice lmao

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Any copyright leaks on the CP9 page? Or are they not going to make that mistake twice.

I wonder what taboo this next character will break.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Any copyright leaks on the CP9 page? Or are they not going to make that mistake twice.

I wonder what taboo this next character will break.

The broken taboo will be. Tabuu!

SUPER SMASH BROS ULTIMATE X SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Taken from Reimu thread:

Phoenixx (the publishers of Genso Wanderer, Lotus Labyrinth, Azure Reflections, Gensokyo Defenders, Mechanical Scrollery, Touhou Labyrinth 2, Luna Nights and now Antimony of Common Flowers) did actually retweet a Famitsu article regarding the upcoming Nintendo Direct.
Take that however you will.

It’s to my understanding they did NOT do this with past directs

 

[Schnee117]

The broken taboo will be. Tabuu!

SUPER SMASH BROS ULTIMATE X SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL

As part of the update, random tripping is brought back

 

[chocolatejr9]

As part of the update, random tripping is brought back

Remind me again why people think Brawl is a good game?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Smh, I can't believe you would post such a blatantly fake leak, especialy when the actual trailer that got leaked early is right there

Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up (Official Music Video)

Rick Astley's official music video for “Never Gonna Give You Up” Subscribe to the official Rick Astley YouTube channel: https://RickAstley.lnk.to/YTSubIDFoll...

www.youtube.com

An ad saved my life.

Before the direct today. My predictions are as follows. I’ll be splitting it into what I’m confident in and what I’m not.
Confident
A 2D Metroid of some kind. New or Remake.

A Mario 3D style Collection of Zelda OOT, MM, WW, and TP. Maybe not MM since Nintendo cucked Galaxy 2.

BotW 2 and Metroid Prime 4 information.

New Kirby Game.

New Smash fighter is Phoenix Wright.

Great Ace Attorney Duology is being localized and ported.

Not Confident
Maybe like an echo pass, WoL expansion, or Stage DLC for Smash Ultimate alongside the new fighter.

Perhaps a new Top down Zelda in the style of Links Awakening.

All of this probably isn’t happening together. But these seem like reasonably choices. Obviously there will be others since the direct is 50 minutes long.

 

[rexfan53]

can someone ping me if cp9 actually leaks. No trolls plz

 

[SpecterFlower]

Melee clones are not Echoes either. Sakurai has actually made it clear there's differences, acknowledging it by noting Ken being an Echo and Dr. Mario being a Clone is somewhat arbitrary. They're officially different terms.

Only Dr. Mario could legitimately come close, but this only shows all the more reason he's not labeled one. Ganondorf is most definitely not anywhere close to an Echo. There is no "Melee-style Echo", cause it's a term created for a subset of clones introduced in Ultimate. Roy is even closer than some others, but Ganondorf, Young Link, Falco, and Pichu are different bodyshapes, with Young Link being so different he can't have the moniker(Pichu even has a different bodyshape too. This is why the Project M Team made it clear he can't be a costume like Dr. Mario was. In fact, nobody else could be but Dr. Mario due to different bodyshapes).

Or in other words; All Echoes are a type of clone. All Clones are not a type of echo.

Isabelle, for the record, is a clone of sorts(albeit, the unused term officially, "semi-clone"), but she could not ever be an Echo anyway. I'm not sure if she could even if it was New Leaf Villager's design. The different kind of feet and hands might've been part of it too, but I feel like that's less important. Yes, they would stand at different heights(...though with that in mind, that even more makes it clear they're still a different bodyshape).

Ken is so more different from Ryu than Dr. Mario is from Mario, i think Ken should've been counted as a semicolon rather than an echo.

 

[PeridotGX]

Any copyright leaks on the CP9 page? Or are they not going to make that mistake twice.

I wonder what taboo this next character will break.

I have it on good authority that the long standing fanrule "Magneton will not be playable" will be shattered.

 

[Megadoomer]

Remind me again why people think Brawl is a good game?

Also, Subspace Emissary might have had something to do with it.

EDIT: I just noticed that Sonic's Brawl trailer doesn't show Green Hill Zone at all, which seems unusual.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes. The term is official. Melee and 4 directly use it to refer to the characters who used another as a base specifically. Ganondorf by the time of Brawl stopped using that term(Semi-Clone is pretty much the same thing as a Unique Character for all we know). Melee has 6 clones, and 4 has 3 clones. Directly stated by Sakurai too. Echo is just as official, and also has a unique designation on the Smash website, to show that they are treated differently. No matter how eh the differences are. I mean, having literal hurtboxes and separate animations are enough to be an Echo too, which shows how arbitrary the requirements are beyond "same bodyshape". Daisy is bleh...

It's not semantics. They're hard terms created for Smash that have very different uses, directly by Sakurai himself. The only actual made-up term is Semi-Clone. We don't exactly know how Sakurai defines ones like Isabelle. He might just call her a Clone. He might not. He's actually confirmed that Echoes and Clones are different things overall, but has noted that the difference isn't really "that much" anyway in return. Which makes sense.

But that's also why something like a cross-series Echo is possible, since it's that loosely defined(same bodyshape is the only official statement thusfar). Not that I think it's realistic, but when you're doing an Echo, it's not about the same franchise, it's who fits them best in bodyshape first. Which makes sense. Clones operate in a similar way, same with using others as a base(which there doesn't seem to be a fanterm for ones like Ness and Falcon yet?).

Sorry, but until its seen otherwise, people will continue to view Echoes as being same-series only and there's no changing people's minds. From the moment echoes were announced as a thing, all we've seen are clones as the literal 'echo' of another character (Peach/Daisy, Samus/Dark Samus, Simon/Richter) and the others as Semi-Clones....Dr. Mario has a couple of different moves than Mario, Pichu has smaller frame data and a self-hurt mechanic (in exchange for increased power), Ganondorf is finally differentiated from Falcon to finally be a Semi-Clone, The Earthbound, Fire Emblem and the Star Fox gang all differ enough to be Semi Clones as well....aside from Lucina who is an exact clone of Marth and lo & behold, is classified as the Echo of Marth.

You may not like it or agree and can post a doctoral thesis on why this reasoning is wrong, but until Sakurai & Smash Ultimate produces an Echo that proves otherwise, you won't get the majority to agree.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Remind me again why people think Brawl is a good game?

Also, Subspace Emissary might have had something to do with it.

Also Brawl’s Final Destination theme is THE BEST. This is not up for debate

 

[SpecterFlower]

you know after all this talk about pokemone i've been thinking about who would be a really good inclusion....


and the answer was Red or another pokemon trainer, but here's the catch, you fight with the trainer themselves rather than pokemon, i mean who wouldn't want to see Red beating the **** out of Sephiroth and Bowser with his bare hand's?

 

[SKX31]

Remind me again why people think Brawl is a good game?

Brawl's content and various modes were consistently great, that was never the issue. And hey, just as some like a fast Smash game in Melee (such as I, just to use an anecdotal example. I'm a fan of Melee's competitive scene after all), some like a slower Smash game in Brawl.

Problem was, Brawl not only had tripping but also some carry over jank from 64 and Melee: such as chaingrabs (which circumvented hitstun cancelling), full edge grab invincibility which in both Melee and Brawl lead to some seriously dumb camping.

Plus it had other severe jank like hitstun cancelling - which is one reason why was borken. Most characters' follow up options were limited due to the opponent being able to cancel hitstun quickly. Not Meta Knight though because his attacks were so quick that he could strike before the opponent could cancel. And Meta Knight could spam his aerials freely. Move staling in Brawl was also excessive, which had the unfortunate side effect of ensuing that spamming the same move was actually viable since a stale move potentially kept the opponent locked in a cycle of pain.

Don't get me wrong, every Smash game has jank. Melee, for example, has the Invisible Ceiling + the jank surrounding meteor cancelling, while Ultimate's platforms feel like one is stuck in glue (which is understandable to prevent accidental drops, but ensures that platforms are a disadvantageous position) and jank relating to the short hop. Brawl just was unfortunate to have a mechanic so jank that practically everyone hated it: random tripping.

Which is a shame when Brawl had its own fun stuff like DACUS (Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash). And really, Brawl is a pretty good game to play still. Watching it is a bit wonkier, but that's just me personally who prefers to watch Melee foremost and Ultimate second.

 

[SneakyLink]

EDIT: I just noticed that Sonic's Brawl trailer doesn't show Green Hill Zone at all, which seems unusual.

The only reason I can think of is Green Hill Zone was a secret stage in Brawl.

Even then, the Brawl Dojo showed Gray Fox before revealing he was a hidden assist trophy.

 

[Otoad64]

Remind me again why people think Brawl is a good game?

like, every aspect of the game besides the floaty "non-competitive" nature of the gameplay

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Remind me again why people think Brawl is a good game?

Because Coin Launcher is the greatest game known to man. The side mode which has you beat up your friends as video game characters was cool too