Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Þe 1 → Way]

There really IS a Spongebob meme for everything...

You flatter me.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Essential?

Spoiler

(too blue)






You could make the argument for Mii... but I don't want to, lol.

There you go. 38 characters. I await the dissent, especially over the third-parties.

And just keep in mind I cut both my mains so I'm not being biased here.

I feel Steve fits with the 3rd-parties, being both iconic and loved by Nintendo (Minecraft Dungeons was also going to be a 3DS exclusive originally), nearly being just as relevant (if not exactly as relevant, maybe more than at least one arguably) to them as the other three these days. He was also very much desired by plenty of fans including early Gen Z and millenials.

I think a retro character could be kept too, maybe R.O.B. or Duck Hunt (I love the Ice Climbers but I don't know if Nintendo would keep them over the other two, although they do usually keep their game with the others they often rerelease in initial lineups and stuff, and in the NES Remix games...).

 

[Ivander]

Seriously, Twitter gives me a headache sometimes.

Just never read the comments. It's tempting, but not reading them relieves so much stress.

 

[Ben Holt]

Honestly, speaking of Legends Arceus, I am cautiously optimistic that it may bring me back into the Pokémon series.
I basically retired after ORAS, as X and Y disappointed me with zero post-game content, and ORAS outright OFFENDED me with the removal of the Battle Frontier. GameFreak's excuse of, "kids are used to the instant gratification of mobile games, and not enough people would even make it to the Battle Frontier for it to be worth the time," sealed the deal for me, and Sword and Shield's poor quality led me to cynicism.
But Legends Arceus, if it truly is a Breath of the Wild quality game, will make me shout GameFreak's praise once more.

 

[N3ON]

I feel Steve fits with the 3rd-parties, being both iconic and loved by Nintendo (Minecraft Dungeons was also going to be a 3DS exclusive originally). He was also very much desired by plenty of fans including early Gen Z and millenials.

I think a retro character could be kept too, maybe R.O.B. or Duck Hunt (I love the Ice Climbers but I don't know if Nintendo would keep them over the other two, although they do usually keep their game with the others they often rerelease in initial lineups and stuff, and in the NES Remix games...).

Lol, I literally wrote out "I know some people are going to say Steve or whoever fits", but decided not to keep it in. And not even because I thought Steve did fit, I stand by my distinction. I mean Dragon Quest has closer ties to Nintendo than Minecraft does. It was because I knew Steve would somehow be the sticking point.

 

[Louie G.]

Since it's still relevant to the conversation, I decided to sort the cast out to convey where I think everyone stands and how safe I think their return is. These are general categories so it's not exactly saying "if you're in this category you're safe" or "if you're in this category you're out". It just means that I'm a lot more confident in the characters returning the higher up they are.

imgur.com

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more from users like sptoons.

imgur.com

Sorry for the extra link click, it won't let me post the image in full. Oh yeah, I left out echo fighters also since I think their inclusions are just a variable of whether or not there's enough time to throw in some last-minute characters at the end. Although I think a few have a chance of returning regardless (Chrom).

 

[Ben Holt]

Lol, I literally wrote out "I know some people are going to say Steve or whoever fits", but decided not to keep it in. And not even because I thought Steve did fit, I stand by my distinction. I mean Dragon Quest has closer ties to Nintendo than Minecraft does. It was because I knew Steve would somehow be the sticking point.

Minecraft literally has Mario Skins. Can't get much closer than that.
But then again, Rayman Legends had Mario Skins AND a crossover (Rabbids are still technically a Rayman spinoff) and he's still not a fighter yet.
Maybe Ubisoft is simping and Nintendo isn't interested.

 

[Idon]

You could probably just use the NX model for the base form and have the regular version be like a FS or something
View attachment 306612

I'm not talking about goddamn Alphamon.
I'm talking about the cutscene you linked, brother.
That's like last fifth of the game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, so to pump the brakes on our millionth FE and cut discussion, how excited would you be if Crash was in Ultimate's base game alongside the Belmonts?

Sames as Ridley and K Rool.

"I don't care about this. But at least I don't have to see requests for them anymore."

I’d love a Black Knight echo for Ike. It’d give FE a villain, more visual uniqueness, presumably a super heavyweight, and Black Knight is also just a really cool character. I think they would be the best choice for a new FE Rep.

This is literally the only FE addition that wouldn't infuriate me.

 

[Ben Holt]

Minecraft literally has Mario Skins. Can't get much closer than that.
But then again, Rayman Legends had Mario Skins AND a crossover (Rabbids are still technically a Rayman spinoff) and he's still not a fighter yet.
Maybe Ubisoft is simping and Nintendo isn't interested.

Is it tacky to quote yourself?
Oh well, I want to expand upon this idea anyway.
With how buddy buddy Nintendo and Microsoft have been with Banjo, Cuphead, Minecraft, crossplay (even before Sony reluctantly joined in), etc., I would not be surprised if a Nintendo Direct came saying:
"Nintendo is dedicated to making video games accesible for everyone! So with Nintendo Switch Version x.x.x, we have partnered with Microsoft to allow native compatibility with the XBox Adaptive Controller. No third party adapters necessary!"

 

[DanganZilla5]

Okay, so to pump the brakes on our millionth FE and cut discussion, how excited would you be if Crash was in Ultimate's base game alongside the Belmonts?

That would have made the wait for the game 10x harder. Plus it would be exciting because Spyro would be slightly more likely, even though he may not happen anyways. But I would be able to hold onto more hope for him.

 

[N3ON]

Minecraft literally has Mario Skins. Can't get much closer than that.
But then again, Rayman Legends had Mario Skins AND a crossover (Rabbids are still technically a Rayman spinoff) and he's still not a fighter yet.
Maybe Ubisoft is simping and Nintendo isn't interested.

Of course you can get closer than that. Mario skins? Tekken has that. Scribblenauts has that. Ace Combat has that. Just Dance has that. I mean there are Zelda skins in Skyrim and Diablo.

Half of Dragon Quest's main titles were exclusives, Nintendo publishes DQ games outside Japan for its systems, and not counting Smash, there have been three crossovers between DQ and Mario.

Minecraft is big. Indisputably. But other series have closer ties to Nintendo.

 

[Louie G.]

I think it's interesting people jumped to point out the absence of Steve from N3ON's lineup when I feel the absence of Ryu is much more noteworthy. Can't argue with it too much though since I do believe if we had to narrow it down to one, Mega Man edges him out a bit.

Steve is obviously a worthy addition but I'm not convinced just yet that he's at Sonic or Pac-Man levels of "he needs to be in every Smash game".

 

[Ben Holt]

Of course you can get closer than that. Mario skins? Tekken has that. Scribblenauts has that. Ace Combat has that. Just Dance has that. I mean there are Zelda skins in Skyrim and Diablo.

Half of Dragon Quest's main titles were exclusives, Nintendo publishes DQ games outside Japan for its systems, and not counting Smash, there have been three crossovers between DQ and Mario.

Minecraft is big. Indisputably. But other series have closer ties to Nintendo.

Fair enough.

 

[SpecterFlower]

Greninja is not the most popular Pokemon of all time. Pikachu is the most popular Pokemon of all time. Then probably Charizard. Then maybe Mewtwo or Squirtle or someone. Greninja might be in the top 10. Pokemon is so massive, ubiquitous and widespread that even a poll of that size is only a sliver of the total audience.

And Xenoblade isn't really that big a series. I'd consider removing Ike, but if I was going to give any other series another character, it'd be Star Fox.

Thanks for the feedback, though.

mhm, xenoblade will probably outgrow fire emblem eventually since it's inherently a more mainstream concept (cinematic stry telling with action-y combat vs visual novel story telling with strategy based combat) which is why im putting them on equal terms with the series likelihood to get a new character with smash.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Lol, I literally wrote out "I know some people are going to say Steve or whoever fits", but decided not to keep it in. And not even because I thought Steve did fit, I stand by my distinction. I mean Dragon Quest has closer ties to Nintendo than Minecraft does. It was because I knew Steve would somehow be the sticking point.

What does Mega Man have besides his old exclusives?

I like Mega Man, but I don't think that's the best point when Nintendo clearly cares about Minecraft. Dungeons was originally going to be a 3DS exclusive too until Mojang decided to have crossplay and stuff. Minecraft not being exclusive didn't keep it from ruling the eShop for a while.

 

[N3ON]

I think it's interesting people jumped to point out the absence of Steve from N3ON's lineup when I feel the absence of Ryu is much more noteworthy. Can't argue with it too much though since I do believe if we had to narrow it down to one, Mega Man edges him out a bit.

I knew it would be Steve, lol.

I think the character with the next strongest case is Hero, personally.

But I think the thing that is most telling is that we're debating on who the next character in line is, when had I excluded Sonic, Mega Man or Pac-Man, I think the consensus would be to put that excluded character with the other two. And that, to me, sort of solidifies that they are the three highest, the three most essential, and what follows is a little more subjective.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Sakurai POTD.

pic.twitter.com/P2XvtOZa7R

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 10, 2021

 

[Shroob]

Sakurai POTD.

pic.twitter.com/P2XvtOZa7R

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 10, 2021

Daisy dancing through fire, eh?


Inb4 someone somehow reads into this as a Shantae hint.

 

[Ben Holt]

mhm, xenoblade will probably outgrow fire emblem eventually since it's inherently a more mainstream concept (cinematic stry telling with action-y combat vs visual novel story telling with strategy based combat) which is why im putting them on equal terms with the series likelihood to get a new character with smash.

I once joked how "Too many Xeno characters!" is gonna replace the Fire Emblem meme.

Smash 7:
Adds Rex as the XC2 protagonist
"Uh-oh! Now XC2 has three characters to XC2, so we gotta add Dunban and Fiora!"
"But now XBX is the only Xenoblade game without a playable fighter!"
Adds Elma
"But technically, Cross is the protagonist, so we gotta add him!"
Adds Cross
"Well, KOS-MOS is pretty popular to represent the classic Xeno franchise."
Adds KOS-MOS
Nintendo Corporate: "Hello Mr. Sakurai. We're releasing Xenoblade Chronicles 3 soon. Smash did so well marketing Fire Emblem, so we'd like you to promote our new game in Smash!"
Adds XC3 Protagonist
Now we got 10 Xeno Fighters.

 

[SpecterFlower]

honestly i think ryu is much more likely than megaman to come back, megaman is the "or the fans pick" but if either Nintendo or Capcom had to choose ryu would be the one to come back since he's a much larger deal for both of them.

 

[SharkLord]

Sakurai POTD.

pic.twitter.com/P2XvtOZa7R

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 10, 2021

sakurai voice I know, let's give Terry a super powerful Super Special move with a crazy input to teach people how to commands. It's really rewarding, so it has an incentive
sakurai voice a year later Hmm yes give Pyra a spammable Power Geyser for a normal up special

 

[Louie G.]

But I think the thing that is most telling is that we're debating on who the next character in line is, when had I excluded Sonic, Mega Man or Pac-Man, I think the consensus would be to put that excluded character with the other two. And that, to me, sort of solidifies that they are the three highest, the three most essential, and what follows is a little more subjective.

I think Smash 4 really did a great job with its third-party selection. I was content with Sonic / Mega Man / Pac-Man, then we got Ryu and I'm convinced he's the other "essential", personally. Then we got Cloud who is essentially the face of JRPGs and the most iconic character from another wildly successful series with close ties to Nintendo (despite Cloud himself being more Sony). With these five I already thought like, the third-party lineup is exactly where it needs to be. Give or take Simon, which lo and behold came not too long afterwards lmao.

Well, Bayonetta came somewhere in between but I've always considered her a special case, seeing how Nintendo effectively adopted her.

I kinda miss that comfort of having a more concise cast of third party characters, but I do enjoy how far we've come too. I feel like I'm in the minority where I wouldn't mind seeing a significant majority of the third party characters cut and for the roster to focus back on Nintendo again... but I dunno if that's even feasible to imagine at this point seeing how much that spectacle has become engrained in Smash's DNA by now.

By the way I don't disagree with the case for Hero either. Didn't mention him here since he came later as DLC but now that DQ is in Smash it's hard to imagine them letting up on that - potential rights or budget issues withstanding.

 

[Ben Holt]

What does Mega Man have besides his old exclusives?

I like Mega Man, but I don't think that's the best point when Nintendo clearly cares about Minecraft. Dungeons was originally going to be a 3DS exclusive too until Mojang decided to have crossplay and stuff. Minecraft not being exclusive didn't keep it from ruling the eShop for a while.

I was around during the Brawl days (on an old lost account).
Mega Man was ALWAYS heavily requested and deemed "next in line" after Sonic.
He was the "Big Get" for Smash 4. This was when Third Party characters were a rare treat, so it meant more back then.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

You know smash fans will always talk crap about Fire Emblem but you guys have no idea how happy I am it’s gotten as big as it has. It was a bummer during the Radiant Dawn era of Fire Emblem was... depressing. Like I was very scared Shadow Dragon would be the last and even though I’m not fond of Fates I’m super glad Awakening brought it back to life single handily. It gave us masterpieces like Echoes and Three Houses and with Heroes it’s even more prominent.

Do I wish they would lighten up on them in Smash? Absolutely but Smash fans have often taken their disappointment of a character out on the Fire Emblem franchise and fans and I really do hate that. It’s just how it is tho I guess.

 

[PeridotGX]

spicy hot take: terry shouldn't have moves locked behind imputs. dumb idiot babies who can't do fighting game inputs are basically locked out of a key part of his kit.

source: dumb idiot baby who can't do fighting game imputs

 

[SharkLord]

spicy hot take: terry shouldn't have moves locked behind imputs. dumb idiot babies who can't do fighting game inputs are basically locked out of a key part of his kit.

source: dumb idiot baby who can't do fighting game imputs

Just be grateful Geese fell off the tower and missed the envelope

 

[TheCJBrine]

I was around during the Brawl days (on an old lost account).
Mega Man was ALWAYS heavily requested and deemed "next in line" after Sonic.
He was the "Big Get" for Smash 4. This was when Third Party characters were a rare treat, so it meant more back then.

Steve was also heavily requested once people got the idea of him in Smash, like on miiverse and social media, with many more who didn't realize he could be in Smash loving his inclusion afterwards since they only made the connection (or realized he did have a chance) just then, as people do for other characters including the past big ones. He just didn't exist during Brawl.

Arguably Steve is just as "essential" as Mega Man, especially with Smash's "celebrating videogame history" focus, him easily beating out Mega Man if it was modern day only (and in return, if it was retro times or pre/very early-2010s only, Steve would easily be beaten out, but it's not those times only).

I'm not trying to dump on Mega Man or anything, as I said I like him too, but I don't understand how Steve doesn't fit .__. The old characters aren't the only big ones Nintendo cares about, nor are they the only ones important to videogame history and Nintendo themselves.

edit: thought about it a bit more, think I had it a bit wonky but have a better idea and better wording now.

 

[Shroob]

^Even spicier take


All the Hayabusa leaks came around December-January iirc, with all the Koei-Techmo stuff


And Byleth was shown off in January. I stand by my thought process that Verg's never said that he's heard Hayabusa, just that Koei-Techmo were in talks for Smash, how do we not know it wasn't Byleth?

 

[PeridotGX]

View attachment 306617
Just be grateful Geese fell off the tower and missed the envelope

yes. if i can barely do a hadoken, i'm glad that assault on the wrist isn't in smash.

 

[ARandomZoomer]

Personally I'd like for a Smash 6 to keep as much of Ultimate's newcomers as possible. They can be more liberal with the remaining characters.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Do I wish they would lighten up on them in Smash? Absolutely but Smash fans have often taken their disappointment of a character out on the Fire Emblem franchise and fans and I really do hate that. It’s just how it is tho I guess.

I mean, I blame Nintendo. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if FE's Smash pushes were hurting the series.

 

[SharkLord]

^Even spicier take


All the Hayabusa leaks came around December-January iirc, with all the Koei-Techmo stuff


And Byleth was shown off in January. I stand by my thought process that Verg's never said that he's heard Hayabusa, just that Koei-Techmo were in talks for Smash, how do we not know it wasn't Byleth?

I don't think it was just Byleth, either. There's also the AoC and Sophie Spirits, which still list Koei-Tecmo in the trademarks. KT has a decent amount of minor content, and while it could point to a fighter in the future, it could also just be that the deals are for all the little things instead.

 

[Ben Holt]

^Even spicier take


All the Hayabusa leaks came around December-January iirc, with all the Koei-Techmo stuff


And Byleth was shown off in January. I stand by my thought process that Verg's never said that he's heard Hayabusa, just that Koei-Techmo were in talks for Smash, how do we not know it wasn't Byleth?

I don't know who holds the rights to Byleth specifically, but I'm pretty sure that Nintendo wholly owns the Fire Emblem franchise, meaning that the only challenge to brining Byleth in would be cutting royalty checks to whomever designed the character, music, etc. And I'm pretty sure royalties are agreed upon at the start of a project, not once it's in Smash.
Of course, this is just my assumption.
I just know that Nintendo didn't need Tate's permission to release the Donkey Kong Country trilogy on Virtual Console because Donkey Kong is fully owned by Nintendo.

 

[SharkLord]

I remember KT being partially credited for Byleth's trailer, since they made Three Houses and that reveal reused a cutscene from that game. Can't seem to find the tweet that said it, though...

 

[Louie G.]

And Byleth was shown off in January. I stand by my thought process that Verg's never said that he's heard Hayabusa, just that Koei-Techmo were in talks for Smash, how do we not know it wasn't Byleth?

Because Byleth belongs to Nintendo and Intelligent Systems. It's unlikely that they needed to negotiate with Koei Tecmo about anything significant for a property and character that they have full ownership of.

I remember KT being partially credited for Byleth's trailer, since they made Three Houses and that reveal reused a cutscene from that game. Can't seem to find the tweet that said it, though...

Although I remember this too. There's a case to be made here, but Byleth isn't a "Koei Tecmo character" or anything like that.

 

[Shroob]

Because Byleth belongs to Nintendo and Intelligent Systems. It's unlikely that they needed to negotiate with Koei Tecmo about anything significant for a property and character that they have full ownership of.



Although I remember this too. There's a case to be made here, but Byleth isn't a "Koei Tecmo character" or anything like that.

But say that Koei worked on the trailer, considering a good amount of it seems to be done in the same vein as the 3 Houses cutscenes, for all intents then they would need to be in talks.

 

[PSIGuy]

View attachment 306617
Just be grateful Geese fell off the tower and missed the envelope

Am I right in thinking the entire middle section of inputs is more complicated then it actually is?

It's like the difference between a Japanese sentence without kanji
"ハハハハハハハハノハハハハハハハトワラウ"
compared to with kanji;
"母は「ハハハ」母の母は「ハハハハ」と笑う"

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I feel like if the Koei-Tecmo stuff was Byleth it would’ve leaked somehow that it was Byleth. But all that time Vergeben and everyone else was shooting down Koei-Tecmo as being involved with the next character. I explicitly remember KT being one of the first companies Verge shot down so if the rumors of Koei-Tecmo around that timeframe had any kind of direction towards Byleth then I think it would’ve been known. But Verge was dead set that it wasn’t KT and well, it wasn’t. Aside from that way after Byleth was when Vergeben said, yeah I heard KT and Nintendo were in talks.

So yeah, it’s either another KT character being Byleth or possibly the KT spirits in terms of Hyrule Warriors and Persona 5 Strikers but I don’t think that Byleth getting in disconfirms Hayabusa or KT. The timeline just doesn’t make sense.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Interesting video by max. He has connections in the fighting game industry so he probably does know stuff we don't. I will say though that the stuff he says about Fighters Pass 2 are already things we know about. He basically says that Fighters Pass 2 was planned very much in advance before the announcement.