Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Knight Dude]

As far as video-game types go, I'd say we're missing the "Samurai" archetype.

Unfortunately, the notable ones... don't exactly have a snowball's chance in hell.
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(Adam Williams, Flynn, Haohmaru, Wolf, Takamaru, Lyn)

Out of these, I think I'd pick Haohmaru. I guess there's Brave Fencer Mushashi too, though not the lead, I think Mitsurugi is still notable enough. Oh, and maaaybe someone from Onimusha.

There's definitely more Knights(or Knight adjecent) and Ninjas that leads in their games.

 

[Ben Holt]

-Dry Bowser and Mrs.PAC-MAN honestly work better as alts. Especially for Dry Bowser, as there's no Different Characteristics that separates Dry Bowser from Regular Bowser

Excuse me? He has the same difference that separates Simon and Richter.

Blue fire!

 

[DevaAshera]

Toon link is based off those toei anime movies from the 60s. There's no real specific style to anime honestly.

Yup, I know, I was going off of the stereotypical idea what what is and isn't 'anime' since I rarely see someone refer to Toon Link as an 'anime swordsman'..granted, I've had arguments with people trying to say the main Link isn't 'anime-esque' and is clearly 'cartoony' before..so I know people are biased and fickle.

 

[DarthEnderX]

And she's a completely different character in Tropical Freeze. Diddy glides; Dixie double jumps.

?
That's still only one move.
You're talking about platformers where characters only have, like, 3 moves. A "totally different character" is a character that jumps a little differently.
You translate that "difference" over into Smash, and they still have 90% of their moveset left to go.

 

[Shroob]

However given the option of taking a rushed character inclusion now and a fully-fleshed out character later, I'd take the latter.

But what is later?

Between the choice of Echo Fighter now, or full fledged character in a future Smash game that won't have anywhere near our current roster, I'd gladly take the Echo now.

 

[Ben Holt]

For the record, I'm against the concept of characters being alternate costumes of other characters altogether.
Male and female variants are fine, but if Daisy can have the exact same moveset as Peach down to the frame data while still having her own character slot, then so can Alph.
Hero can easily have 4 separate movesets as can Alex, and especially Zombie, and Enderman.
The only exception I make is Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings simply due to the sheer number of them, and no Koopaling is any more or less important than the others to merit their own slot while the others remain costumes.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's use the horny test.

Please, no.

 

[DarthEnderX]

if Daisy can have the exact same moveset as Peach down to the frame data while still having her own character slot

She shouldn't. It's ****ing stupid that Daisy has no gameplay changes.

 

[Ben Holt]

But what is later?

Between the choice of Echo Fighter now, or full fledged character in a future Smash game that won't have anywhere near our current roster, I'd gladly take the Echo now.

I call bull**** on this idea. The next Smash game will have a bigger and better roster with minimal, if any cuts.
This may be SAKURAI'S last game as the sole director due to his age, but Smash Bros. is too much of a cash cow to slow down. Maybe he'll co-direct in the future.
Hell, I remember people thinking that Gen 5 would be the last time we get new Pokémon because the Pokédex exceeded 500 monsters.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

She shouldn't. It's ****ing stupid that Daisy has no gameplay changes.

Honestly, I am miffed they took out a legitimately great difference.

Daisy having Smash 4 turnips was actually ingenious.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Another post due to boredom based on Artstyle this time..I was curious how many anime-esque reps we had in relation to the rest of the cast..

Cartoon:

Anime:

Realistic:

Having now done this, I realize that, in some cases, it can be very subjective..it was really hard to figure out where to put Little Mac, for instance, since he has traits that would fit into all three 'styles'.

The reason its so hard to differentiate "anime" from "cartoon" is because one is just a subcategory of the other. Remember, the big anime eyes will all know and love originate from Disney.

Marth is a cartoon character whether you people like it or not.

On one final note, anime is more defined by geography then artistic style, but even then most of Smash's cartooniest characters like Kirby and Villager still have strong stylistic influences from popular anime. I'd argue that Diddy Kong and K.Rool are the only "non-anime cartoon" characters. I'm not sure what I'd call Steve.

 

[Idon]

But what is later?

Between the choice of Echo Fighter now, or full fledged character in a future Smash game that won't have anywhere near our current roster, I'd gladly take the Echo now.

Later is another Smash game where they can truly shine as their own character.

I see that we're of different minds about this, but I think every fighting game character should be at least somewhat unique. I'd gladly take an inclusion later in uncertain circumstances if it means that they aren't doomed to be in the position they are now, forever, due to their weird original circumstances.

Of course it's not an option I'm exactly given, it's just a belief I hold. I'm glad that other fighting games have moved beyond "Let's just make this character exactly the same as another just to say they're in" inclusions.

I call bull**** on this idea. The next Smash game will have a bigger and better roster with minimal, if any cuts.
This may be SAKURAI'S last game as the sole director due to his age, but Smash Bros. is too much of a cash cow to slow down. Maybe he'll co-direct in the future.
Hell, I remember people thinking that Gen 5 would be the last time we get new Pokémon because the Pokédex exceeded 500 monsters.

Hold your horses buddy, the future of Smash is uncertain. The fact is no fighting game has a perfect retention rate across its entire series unless it died young. I wouldn't be so certain as to say Smash 6 will be bigger because it sells well when even among games that do sell well their sequels can vary wildly.

 

[Ben Holt]

She shouldn't. It's ****ing stupid that Daisy has no gameplay changes.

Then we are on two different wavelengths.

 

[7NATOR]

I call bull**** on this idea. The next Smash game will have a bigger and better roster with minimal, if any cuts.
This may be SAKURAI'S last game as the sole director due to his age, but Smash Bros. is too much of a cash cow to slow down. Maybe he'll co-direct in the future.
Hell, I remember people thinking that Gen 5 would be the last time we get new Pokémon because the Pokédex exceeded 500 monsters.

That depends

It depends on how much of the Gameplay will be shaken up Next Smash game. If it stays relatively the same, then I could imagine a bigger roster since I imagine assets would be heavily re-used, and the balance would be kind of in place, especially since the balance of the game now is pretty good

If the Gameplay is drastically changed, there will definitely be Lesser roster, mainly because you now need to balance every character to the New Gameplay elements added. Trying to Re-balance Over 80-90 Characters is Probably not gonna happen

There's also other factors like how much of Graphic overhaul, Moveset tweaks (Small or Big), Other type of content like Single Player modes and such, etc that need to be factored in

Also regrding 3rd parties, there's also the issue of having to re-license everything, which will be very expensive as well as a daunting task, especially with all the 3rd party franchises added through DLC. The good news is Discounting Microsoft and SNK, Nintendo have stuck to Companies they have worked with Smash 4 or before for 3rd party content, and SNK is very Crossover happy it seems as well. Between Smash also being the biggest it's every been and it's now reputation of putting all these franchises together, they may have more leeway for licensing characters

 

[Ben Holt]

That depends

It depends on how much of the Gameplay will be shaken up Next Smash game. If it stays relatively the same, then I could imagine a bigger roster since I imagine assets would be heavily re-used, and the balance would be kind of in place, especially since the balance of the game now is pretty good

If the Gameplay is drastically changed, there will definitely be Lesser roster, mainly because you now need to balance every character to the New Gameplay elements added. Trying to Re-balance Over 80-90 Characters is Probably not gonna happen

There's also other factors like how much of Graphic overhaul, Moveset tweaks (Small or Big), Other type of content like Single Player modes and such, etc that need to be factored in

Also regrding 3rd parties, there's also the issue of having to re-license everything, which will be very expensive as well as a daunting task, especially with all the 3rd party franchises added through DLC. The good news is Discounting Microsoft and SNK, Nintendo have stuck to Companies they have worked with Smash 4 or before for 3rd party content, and SNK is very Crossover happy it seems as well. Between Smash also being the biggest it's every been and it's now reputation of putting all these franchises together, they may have more leeway for licensing characters

Pretty sure they were smart enough to make the third party contracts long term.

 

[Shroob]

Later is another Smash game where they can truly shine as their own character.

I see that we're of different minds about this, but I think every fighting game character should be at least somewhat unique. I'd gladly take an inclusion later if it means that they aren't doomed to be in the position they are now, forever, due to their weird original circumstances.

Of course it's not an option I'm exactly given, it's just a belief I hold. I'm glad that other fighting games have moved beyond "Let's just make this character exactly the same as another just to say they're in" inclusions.

But at the same time, you could argue that not every character has the luxury to wait for however long we'll be waiting for the Smash after Ult, which, I don't see the Switch getting a new one unless it's a Deluxe edition.

Characters like Chrom or Dark Samus, IMO, would have definitely never gotten into a future Smash title were it not for this game, simply because there'd be no reason to include them. Chrom was still popular during this game, and Dark Samus works as Metroid Prime hype for Prime....4...........oh wait.


Sure, characters like Dixie are evergreen, as long as they keep appearing in their homegame, they're never really in danger of falling out, but the Echo role helps those that just wouldn't make it otherwise to get in.

 

[DarthEnderX]

This may be SAKURAI'S last game as the sole director due to his age

Miyamoto is still making games, and he's 20 years older than Sakurai.

He just needs to learn to delegate more.

Pretty sure they were smart enough to make the third party contracts long term.

Here's hoping.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The next Smash game will have a bigger and better roster with minimal, if any cuts.

Sakurai has gone on record saying that "Everyone is here" is pretty much a one time thing and they can't make it happen again.

You think that a brand new Smash game (not an Ultimate port) would be bigger? Potentially with no cuts?

I'm gonna be blunt. That notion is insane.

 

[Shroob]

The future of Smash is too scary.


That's why I enjoy living in the moment with what I currently have. I don't really care how much the gameplay gets shaken up in future titles tbh, this is the Smash game I dreamed about since I started speculating during Brawl Era.


Does it have flaws? Of course it does, the single player content is lacking hard, but this Roster has already blasted my expectations to the moon, and there's still 2 left to join.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Sakurai has gone on record saying that "Everyone is here" is pretty much a one time thing and they can't make it happen again.

You think that a brand new Smash game (not an Ultimate port) would be bigger? Potentially with no cuts?

I'm gonna be blunt. That notion is insane.

Everyone Is Here was insane. The only thing that would keep it from happening is Nintendo paying for it. And there's not really any reason for Nintendo to no spend ALL OF THE MONEY making Smash.

Sakurai is just trying to lower expectations so everyone will freak out all over again when it happens again, instead of people just taking it for granted.

 

[Nekoo]

Sakurai always said "This time it's the biggest" and "I never think about the future and make each smash if it was the final one"
I think that in his mind, in the current time ,he don't think he can top it.

But in the future if he had to do it again? You can be damn sure he'd try to top it all over again just as a mere personal challenge. That man is crazy.

 

[Knight Dude]

I don't completely hate Echoes like other people do, especially in the context of this particular game as every character did return. I just wish more of these echoes were along the lines of Chrom and Ken mechanically. I actually like characters like Akuma or Noob Saibot. Fun off-shoots on an established style. For Smash, I think Protoman would be a great choice for that. In MM9 and MM10, he's a Glass Cannon unlike Mega Man being tanky. So making him faster, giving him a passive shield(like MM9 and 10) when standing and a Shield Dash instead of Top Spin would be enough I think. He also only shoots two lemons, as opposed to Mega Man's three lemons. Maybe they also deal more damage.

Dark Samus has a handful of small changes, a lower-profile fireball, lower-profile upsmash, and a different roll. But for substantial stuff, having the Rapid fire would've been nice.

Richter's Holy Water could have crawled forward like some of the other CV games. Or he used Knives instead of the Boomerang.

Daisy losing any unique traits kind of sucks. She could have the Superball from Mario Land, like how Peach has a bunch of Mario 2 refences.

I call bull**** on this idea. The next Smash game will have a bigger and better roster with minimal, if any cuts.
This may be SAKURAI'S last game as the sole director due to his age, but Smash Bros. is too much of a cash cow to slow down. Maybe he'll co-direct in the future.
Hell, I remember people thinking that Gen 5 would be the last time we get new Pokémon because the Pokédex exceeded 500 monsters.

Considering we almost have 100 characters, I kind of doubt that. Unless they use the same/similar engine yet again. And Nintendo would still need negotiations to work well again. I can see Capcom/Sega/SNK being cool about it, but Snake already had to skip again before.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don't completely hate Echoes like other people do

What people? Most people like Echoes.

 

[Super Devon]

So uhh, Pyra and Mytrha are a thing in Smash now, nice.
One of my most wanted characters (Tails) now has had it's chances been killed, burnt to a crisp, FeelsBadMan

but their trailer does prove that Mii costumes don't deconfirm the game/franchise of said Mii Costume.
So I have and idea......

Spoiler

Lars from Tekken will get his long awaited buff back to top tier by joining Smash

 

[Knight Dude]

What people? Most people like Echoes.

I hear people were disappointed in how Daisy, Richter and D.Samus don't have that extra "oomph" that Ken has. At least if any videos on the topic and a few discussions here.

Mind you I only said some people. Not "Most" people. Cause we've got every character back so its not a big deal.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I hear people were disappointed in how Daisy, Richter and D.Samus don't have that extra "oomph" that Ken has. At least if any videos on the topic and a few discussions here.

Thinking an echo should have more differences doesn't mean they're hated.

 

[Knight Dude]

Thinking an echo should have more differences doesn't mean they're hated.

Fair enough, I could have worded it differently.

 

[Shroob]

So uhh, Pyra and Mytrha are a thing in Smash now, nice.
One of my most wanted characters (Tails) now has had it's chances been killed, burnt to a crisp, FeelsBadMan

but their trailer does prove that Mii costumes don't deconfirm the game/franchise of said Mii Costume.
So I have and idea......

Spoiler

View attachment 304359
Lars from Tekken will get his long awaited buff back to top tier by joining Smash

It really doesn't tbh.


Rex's costume came back in FP1, all the way nearly 2 and a half years ago, and Pyra/Mythra were probably decided on long after the FP1 lineup was decided.


Likewise, the Heihachi Mii came out with Min Min, who came out about 8 months ago or so. If any Tekken character were going to be in FP2, they'd have saved him for then, much like how Joker, Hero, and Seph only brought Miis of their company with them, and how Namco costumes are being tossed in wherever as filler.


Now if there's ever a FP3, then I'd say Tekken has a fair shake, but not in FP2.

 

[Idon]

My ideal fantasy would be that every Smash character included as an obligatory 1:1 clone gets developments on their moveset that make them unique and/or more true to their character like Luigi, Falco, Roy, etc.
That way they both pad out the roster, serve to make those fans satisfied with just an inclusion happy, and provide unique interesting gameplay remixes that might endear future fans to the gameplay of that character.

I fear with the echo term being invented for this franchise, that's just... not going to happen anymore if there's a character that coincidentally matches body-types with someone else. Much as I'm loathe to admit it, Dark Samus is probably going to be "blue samus" for as long as it can be justified as "she's literally a clone, bro."

 

[Super Devon]

Also thank you Smash for once again having me spend a load of money for another game to play.....

You're really breaking my wallet here :')

It really doesn't tbh.


Rex's costume came back in FP1, all the way nearly 2 and a half years ago, and Pyra/Mythra were probably decided on long after the FP1 lineup was decided.


Likewise, the Heihachi Mii came out with Min Min, who came out about 8 months ago or so. If any Tekken character were going to be in FP2, they'd have saved him for then, much like how Joker, Hero, and Seph only brought Miis of their company with them, and how Namco costumes are being tossed in wherever as filler.


Now if there's ever a FP3, then I'd say Tekken has a fair shake, but not in FP2.

Ah, well guess I'll take the L on both my most wanted characters then :')

 

[Shroob]

My ideal fantasy would be that every Smash character included as an obligatory 1:1 clone gets developments on their moveset that make them unique and/or more true to their character like Luigi, Falco, Roy, etc. That way they both pad out the roster, serve to make those fans satisfied with just an inclusion happy, and provide unique interesting gameplay remixes that might endear future fans to the gameplay of that character.

I fear with the echo term being invented for this franchise, that's just... not going to happen anymore if there's a character that coincidentally matches body-types with someone else. Much as I'm loathe to admit it, Dark Samus is probably going to be "blue samus" for as long as it can be justified as "she's literally a clone, bro."

Oi, ya never did give me your nominations for my dumb theory.

 

[ZelDan]

Echoes are fine as long as it makes sense for a character to echo another one and a character doesn't lose anything special about them when echoing another character.

So and , as previously mentioned work as echoes. and are fine too.

On the other hand:

doesn't really work as a Peach echo in my mind. Daisy wasn't in SMB2 so her having a turnip move doesn't make sense, nor does her using toads really make sense either, as she's the princess for Sarasaland, not the Mushroom Kingdom.

definitely didn't benfit from her echo status.Dark Samus had plenty of different attacks/capabilities between Prime 2 and 3 that didn't really show up in her moveset. her AT is more unique FFS.

I'm a bit more mixed on. On one hand it kind of makes sense to have Dark very similar to Pit.on the other though, KI: Uprising had so many weapons and abilities that it could have been nice for Dark Pit to maybe show a bit more of those off. At the very least though it would have been nice if Dark Pit used his staff outside of just his FS.

Now when it comes to Dixie Kong, honestly, I don't think echo status would really be that bad for her, AS LONG AS she gets the Ken/Chrom treatment, and I say this as someone who considers Dixie Kong one of his more wanted characters. The one thing Dixie is known for that makes her stand out from DK and Diddy is her ability to attack and fly with her hair. they could definitely have Dixie fly with her hair if they gave her DK's up special and change it so it's her hair spinning her around opposed to her arms. They could perhaps have Dixie whip characters while she's grabbing them, and maybe even when she latches onto opponents with her side special.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

My ideal fantasy would be that every Smash character included as an obligatory 1:1 clone gets developments on their moveset that make them unique and/or more true to their character like Luigi, Falco, Roy, etc.
That way they both pad out the roster, serve to make those fans satisfied with just an inclusion happy, and provide unique interesting gameplay remixes that might endear future fans to the gameplay of that character.

I fear with the echo term being invented for this franchise, that's just... not going to happen anymore if there's a character that coincidentally matches body-types with someone else. Much as I'm loathe to admit it, Dark Samus is probably going to be "blue samus" for as long as it can be justified as "she's literally a clone, bro."

Essentially the Brawl approach.

Honestly, considering many clones get decloned (or sometimes the original character changes) this will probably still happen to some degree. If an echo character is planned from the start, they're probably going to have some notable differences. Lucina and Dark Pit probably had no changes due to the huge workload of Ultimate's base game.

 

[Peripuff]

For the record, I'm against the concept of characters being alternate costumes of other characters altogether.
Male and female variants are fine, but if Daisy can have the exact same moveset as Peach down to the frame data while still having her own character slot, then so can Alph.
Hero can easily have 4 separate movesets as can Alex, and especially Zombie, and Enderman.
The only exception I make is Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings simply due to the sheer number of them, and no Koopaling is any more or less important than the others to merit their own slot while the others remain costumes.

I agree, though I feel like the only case I have a strong issue with is Alph. My issue is mostly with the fact that Alph loses his personality and presence entirely by being an Olimar alt. You can argue that the Heroes and Minecraft characters are similar enough that you could consider them one character, but not Alph. Alph is simply a different person from Olimar, and I believe it would be best to make him an echo to make those differences apparent, even if they don't result in any gameplay differences. I hope this sorta makes sense

 

[Idon]

Oi, ya never did give me your nominations for my dumb theory.

Oh yeah
I gotchu before I go to bed.



I could all see these characters feasibly happening and also they use fire in some way.

 

[Shroob]

Big brain thought.


People are expecting MonHun or Phoenix if the MonHun costumes skip the Pyra/Mythra showcase


yfw it's Ammy

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dixie would most likely end up being a Brawl styled clone. I always thought Ness / Lucas was the best comparison, but now Young Link / Toon Link works as well.

Imagine Dixie with mostly different normals, take a few Specials from Diddy as the Peanut (Bubblegum) Popgun, Monkey Flip and who knows Banana. Give her a new grab, like Lucas has with his tether Snake Rope. Her Up B has to be unique, and her Helicopter Spin as a float, like Peach.

Then she'd likely be floaty, and a bit lighter than Diddy to make up for her overall better recovery. She might be a little slower on the ground too, as she also is in DKC2. Her dash speed would probably be the same as DK's tho, so definitely not slow.

This just wouldn't do as Echo standards.

 

[Pillow]

My test for whether a character should be an Echo is to look at how they work in the home series.

Diddy and Dixie always had different movesets. Unique.
Donkey Kong and Funky Kong function roughly the same (except Funky has some unique handicaps). Echo.

Though Tails was a direct copy of Sonic in Sonic 2, he's been unique since Sonic 3 onward. Unique.
Shadow, to this day (in core Sonic games, not spin offs), uses Sonic's same moveset. From Adventure 2 to Forces, they are the definition of clones. Echo.

Almost every echo currently in Smash functions differently from the character they’re based off of. Dark Samus has completely unique abilities separate from Samus we don’t see. Chrom and Roy are nothing alike and aren’t even from the same game. Daisy could have had a move set inspired by sports games. But they don’t have unique movesets.

Besides, you said you’re fine with an Isabelle vs villager situation. The title of echo is ultimately meaningless. Dr Mario isn’t considered an echo, but he basically is one. Dixie could easily have Diddys move set with a unique up B.

However given the option of taking a rushed character inclusion now and a fully-fleshed out character later, I'd take the latter.

Sure. Personally I’ll take clone now, because Smash games are few and far between, but I can see people preferring this alternative. This is all Assuming said characters are guaranteed to show up later.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Big brain thought.


People are expecting MonHun or Phoenix if the MonHun costumes skip the Pyra/Mythra showcase


yfw it's Ammy

Ah danggit not another heckin anime swordfighter.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Guys, look what just happened on Gfaqs. I think Mike Pollock (voice of Eggman) really just dropped in: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/79302746

He was snooping as usual, I see.

(Yes, I'm aware he isn't the one who originally said the line, let me have my bad jokes please)