Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Momotsuki]

a bit difficult to imagine what motivation Nintendo would have to randomly hone in on Touhou.

Nintendo's motivation would be thinking Reimu will sell well as DLC because they're corporate goons who like money?

 

[SKX31]

What time is Sephiroth's official release today? I wanna know when I can get the Spirit Board.

Soon after the Challenge ends (which I believe is 01:00 GMT, which would translate to ca. 19:00 for the American east coast).

Hey guys, what would be the chances of Nintendo adding a joke character as one of the DLC fighters? I'm thinking Slippy, Tingle, Bubsy, or maybe even Lester the Unlikely (the latter of whom would be a very big surprise as the Final DLC char).

Serious answer:

Practically 0 % for the idea as DLC. The big reason why is that Nintendo would be more hard-pressed to sell an intentional joke character as DLC if (s)he was intentionally underpowered (like with its 3 % up-airs). Sure, you'd have those that would buy every character (like me), and people who would be curious for whatever reason, but a joke character would draw a lot of ire too. It's also worth noting that Pichu was partly chosen because it was a clone, and thus much easier to make - making a full-fledged joke character would also require more resources.

It's kinda telling that when Pichu returned, Sakurai and Bamco decided to ramp up its damage-racking capabilities and offensive potential to 11.

 

[Louie G.]

Nintendo's motivation would be thinking Reimu will sell well as DLC because they're corporate goons who like money?

Many other characters more significant to Nintendo and with a wider presence worldwide would do this as well, but I'm not here to tell you what to expect and what not to. I just wanted to contribute to the Reimu conversation - believe what you'd like, because I've been wrong before and I'll surely be wrong again LOL

I just personally have a hard time seeing them lean toward Reimu for that big Japanese market when you can throw in someone like Monster Hunter or Arle and accomplish the same thing for a wider audience that Nintendo can better direct toward official, properly localized releases. If Reimu gets in I'd gladly eat my words and be happy for many of my friends who are massive Touhou nerds.

 

[Momotsuki]

Many other characters more significant to Nintendo and with a wider presence worldwide would do this as well, but I'm not here to tell you what to expect and what not to. I just wanted to contribute to the Reimu conversation - believe what you'd like, because I've been wrong before and I'll surely be wrong again LOL

I just personally have a hard time seeing them lean toward Reimu for that big Japanese market when you can throw in someone like Monster Hunter or Arle and accomplish the same thing for a wider audience that Nintendo can better direct toward official, properly localized releases. If Reimu gets in I'd gladly eat my words and be happy for many of my friends who are massive Touhou nerds.

Hey, fair enough. Not trying to tear into your or anything. You're one of the more reasonable folks around these parts.
I do hear it often regarding Reimu and I'm just not too certain on it. The problem you're bringing up has become a lot better in recent times, for whatever it may be worth - and if Nintendo sees an opportunity to tap into an eastern giant and a western cult fanbase at the same time... I think they very well may.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Serious answer:

Practically 0 % for the idea as DLC. The big reason why is that Nintendo would be more hard-pressed to sell an intentional joke character as DLC if (s)he was intentionally underpowered (like with its 3 % up-airs). Sure, you'd have those that would buy every character (like me), and people who would be curious for whatever reason, but a joke character would draw a lot of ire too. It's also worth noting that Pichu was partly chosen because it was a clone, and thus much easier to make - making a full-fledged joke character would also require more resources.

It's kinda telling that when Pichu returned, Sakurai and Bamco decided to ramp up its damage-racking capabilities and offensive potential to 11.

Adding to this, the other characters that could even be considered to be added because they'd be funny are:

• Who was accepted because it's the only character with character development in The Subspace Emissary, and that made it a notable character in its own right.
• Who was accepted because Wii Fit sold a lot. Even so, most people seem to ignore her.
• Who wasn't accepted by anyone who didn't find it funny.

So unless they've got a following (like...I guess Bubsy), or they whip out a true story mode, I don't think even a lethal joke character would go over well.

 

[Dr. Yatagarasu]

Many other characters more significant to Nintendo and with a wider presence worldwide would do this as well, but I'm not here to tell you what to expect and what not to. I just wanted to contribute to the Reimu conversation - believe what you'd like, because I've been wrong before and I'll surely be wrong again LOL

I just personally have a hard time seeing them lean toward Reimu for that big Japanese market when you can throw in someone like Monster Hunter or Arle and accomplish the same thing for a wider audience that Nintendo can better direct toward official, properly localized releases. If Reimu gets in I'd gladly eat my words and be happy for many of my friends who are massive Touhou nerds.

this is definitely a knock against her yeah
Although a similar argument can be applied to a lot of indies if you're looking at region specific appeal. America? Shovel Knight, to take a popular example, would probably be overshadowed by somebody like Chief.
Europe? I think Rayman would be the most popular pick here? I'm not entirely sure about which characters are the most popular there, but I know Rayman is up there. No indie that I know of (Minecraft really doesn't count anymore) can really compete

none of them have the localization issue though yeah

 

[Speed Weed]

Yeah, honestly...I'm not really feeling Reimu. Dunno, just never looked at her and was able to picture her in Smash. I can't quite put my finger on it, maybe it's what Louie said, maybe it's something else, but she just never really struck me as someone they'd go for.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

this is definitely a knock against her yeah
Although a similar argument can be applied to a lot of indies if you're looking at region specific appeal. America? Shovel Knight, to take a popular example, would probably be overshadowed by somebody like Chief.
Europe? I think Rayman would be the most popular pick here? I'm not entirely sure about which characters are the most popular there, but I know Rayman is up there. No indie (Minecraft really doesn't count anymore) can really compete

none of them have the localization issue though yeah

Is Rayman even an indie character?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Is Rayman even an indie character?

Ubisoft certainly isn’t indie so uhhhh no

 

[Dr. Yatagarasu]

Is Rayman even an indie character?

Read it a bit more closely, I'm saying that there really isn't an indie character that could compare to the popularity of Rayman in europe
the way I worded that might have been a bit unclear
also he's owned by the smol indie company Ubisoft

 

[Gyrom8]

Rayman is indie



... indie ice

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Rayman is indie



... indie ice

Hah gottem

For real tho I think that’s just an optical illusion

 

[SharkLord]

Honestly walking us through THCRAP to translate Touhou games on Steam definitely sounds like something Sakurai would do.

Granted, he could always just plug the fangames that are already on the Switch. Stuff like Luna Nights and Spell Bubble and such are already on there, and as long as Nintendo's own IPs aren't involved I don't think they'd really give a %$#@. Granted, Reimu would definitely be a Japan-appeal pick, but I think there's enough Western pull to make her work.

 

[Momotsuki]

Was it already nearly three months ago I got to watch Sakurai sass the daylights outta Nintendo for like three minutes? That was nice.

 

[Dr. Yatagarasu]

Honestly walking us through THCRAP to translate Touhou games on Steam definitely sounds like something Sakurai would do.

maybe, but I dunno given that THCRAP can be somewhat finnicky at times
and at least Touhou 7-17 are playable without patches
Touhou 6 just plays at 1000 FPS unless you have patches to fix that

 

[Garteam]

Honestly, if Nintendo was comfortable selling as a DLC character before his game received an international release, I don't think the profitability of a fighter really matters too much.

 

[7NATOR]

Honestly

I think the bigger issue with Reimu (and actually on the Same metric Shantae) is that they don't have official 3D Models to base anything on. All of their assets are officially currently only 2D

Not to say that means they couldn't be playable, but I think it's a process of Seeing how much work needs to be put into these characters, and what the payoff is.

Min-Min and Steve I Know had their models ported, so it makes the process of making them easier, and Sephiroth I'm not sure what Model he uses, or if it's edited, but these 3 Have 3D Model Assets already, and I'm not just talking characters, but also the Stage assets, and other stuff as well

You see how long it's taking to make these characters with the Balancing and Animating and such, and that's with assets on the ready.

Like I imagine making just the Sans and Cuphead Mii Costumes did take viable effort because this is their first introduction into 3D, so there's alot of Design aspects you got to talk about to port them to the 3D Plane, and that's just for Mii Costumes. Playable Characters require much or talking and negotiations

and going into Reimu and Shantae, Shantae would Require a Bunch of Animation, more than usual, because of her Animal Transformations and stuff. Reimu would definitly need to be balanced Very carefully because her Natural Gameplay archetype of "Aerial Based Projectile zoner" sounds very easy mess up the balancing, and I doubt people want to fight against Jigglypuff with Projectiles, especially if unbalanced

It really depends on how Early they started negotiations for Reimu and Shantae, if they did. I'm not sure they'd be able to finish negotiations in time for FP2 finalization if they only started in 2019 or even 2018 perhaps. I Know ZUN is a lax Guy, But I'm sure he's still gonna put in alot of input into how Reimu will be represented to the general public

 

[SharkLord]

maybe, but I dunno given that THCRAP can be somewhat finnicky at times
and at least Touhou 7-17 are playable without patches
Touhou 6 just plays at 1000 FPS unless you have patches to fix that

Guess we'll just have to allot some extra time to downloading those extra patches too

And while we're at it, let's have him walk us through the best places to get Fumo plushies in the West. Make sure there's no confusion for any newcomer to the series.

 

[SirBillyBob]

I have no horse in this Touhou race, never played them, so I can't really say anything but I just wanted to give a quick shout out to SharkLord . Before, whenever anyone talked about the prospect of Touhou getting into Smash, I would usually roll my eyes and think to myself "Really? I hope it doesn't get into Smash because that would be lame. Gimme Quote instead." But now I have gained a new appreciation for it thanks to that dude. So, if it ever gets into Smash I'll think "Neat, that one Smashboards guy will be happy." So yeah, cheers dude.

 

[cashregister9]

Honestly

I think the bigger issue with Reimu (and actually on the Same metric Shantae) is that they don't have official 3D Models to base anything on. All of their assets are officially currently only 2D

That didn't really stop these fellows

 

[pinshadow]

Honestly, if Nintendo was comfortable selling as a DLC character before his game received an international release, I don't think the profitability of a fighter really matters too much.

That's fair but it was also at a time when Sakurai was still making the decisions on characters. Nintendo wouldn't have decided to step in and direct the course of the DLC if they didn't think it would benefit them.

 

[Lyncario]

ZUN playing nicely with Touhou fan content will not hurt Reimu's chances. Nintendo is a bunch of zealous, trashy freaks, but they still only care about that stuff with their IPs. If they think Reimu will help sell the pass, that's what will matter to them.

Steve was just a bit over two months ago. Minecraft has a flourishing modding scene that the developers of Minecraft are quite friendly with. Former Minecraft modders are at Mojang, for crying out loud, and that didn't peeve the screaming, wallowing infant that is Nintendo.

The fact that Nintendo was at Reitaisai that one time pretty much makes it so that they don't have problem with how ZUN is very chill with fanworks

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

 

[cothero]

Do you guys think the Resident Evil spirits were added as a consolation prize due to negotiation failures of having a playable character in the game? I mean, that spirit event sounded pretty fishy back then and obviously hurts the chances of having an RE rep in smash pretty bad, but it definitely don't deconfirm it either.

 

[SharkLord]

I have no horse in this Touhou race, never played them, so I can't really say anything but I just wanted to give a quick shout out to SharkLord . Before, whenever anyone talked about the prospect of Touhou getting into Smash, I would usually roll my eyes and think to myself "Really? I hope it doesn't get into Smash because that would be lame. Gimme Quote instead." But now I have gained a new appreciation for it thanks to that dude. So, if it ever gets into Smash I'll think "Neat, that one Smashboards guy will be happy." So yeah, cheers dude.

Glad to see my Touhou plugging's paid off. Cheers to you too.

 

[Aerospherology]

Honestly

I think the bigger issue with Reimu (and actually on the Same metric Shantae) is that they don't have official 3D Models to base anything on. All of their assets are officially currently only 2D

Not to say that means they couldn't be playable, but I think it's a process of Seeing how much work needs to be put into these characters, and what the payoff is.

Min-Min and Steve I Know had their models ported, so it makes the process of making them easier, and Sephiroth I'm not sure what Model he uses, or if it's edited, but these 3 Have 3D Model Assets already, and I'm not just talking characters, but also the Stage assets, and other stuff as well

You see how long it's taking to make these characters with the Balancing and Animating and such, and that's with assets on the ready.

Like I imagine making just the Sans and Cuphead Mii Costumes did take viable effort because this is their first introduction into 3D, so there's alot of Design aspects you got to talk about to port them to the 3D Plane, and that's just for Mii Costumes. Playable Characters require much or talking and negotiations

and going into Reimu and Shantae, Shantae would Require a Bunch of Animation, more than usual, because of her Animal Transformations and stuff. Reimu would definitly need to be balanced Very carefully because her Natural Gameplay archetype of "Aerial Based Projectile zoner" sounds very easy mess up the balancing, and I doubt people want to fight against Jigglypuff with Projectiles, especially if unbalanced

It really depends on how Early they started negotiations for Reimu and Shantae, if they did. I'm not sure they'd be able to finish negotiations in time for FP2 finalization if they only started in 2019 or even 2018 perhaps. I Know ZUN is a lax Guy, But I'm sure he's still gonna put in alot of input into how Reimu will be represented to the general public

Plenty of Smash fighters were only in 2D before their inclusion. Samus, Ness (does a physical figure count as a 3D model?), Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Dr. Mario, Marth, Roy, Mr. Game & Watch (yes, he has a 3D model), Pit (only had a trophy in Melee as a 3D model), Lucas, Lucario(?), and Duck Hunt (the ducks had a trophy in Melee).

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Do you guys think the Resident Evil spirits were added as a consolation prize due to negotiation failures of having a playable character in the game? I mean, that spirit event sounded pretty fishy back then and obviously hurts the chances of having an RE rep in smash pretty bad, but it definitely don't deconfirm it either.

You know the funny thing is that it feels like a lot of ideas that didn't happen revolved around Capcom of all companies. Resident Evil only getting spirits, Chun-Li falling out of favour for Ken and now apparently Byleth being a stand in for Monster hunter if I'm understanding that correctly. Hell Megaman hasn't been in character trailers since Ridley and he appeared all the damn time in the Smash 4 trailers.

Starting to wonder if Capcom even has a fighter in this pass.

 

[7NATOR]

That didn't really stop these fellows

I'm not saying Reimu and Shantae are impossible

I'm just saying it's an obstacle and a Disadvantage that they have. Remember that...

-Reimu and Shantae are 3rd party characters, which means that more talks have to be exchanged for design details and stuff. With Pit and Duck hunt being 1st parties that were dormant, there's more creative input the Smash dev team could put in, but with Reimu and Shantae, their Owners have to give their input

-Sans is a perfect example. Sans was originally gonna have fingers, but Toby wanted his hand to be mitts. Every small detail needs to be talked over with the creators of the I.P, and that takes time

With that being said, I'm not saying Reimu and Shantae can't be playable, but this is a disadvantage that they have, and in comparison to alot of potential characters that have 3D Assets on the ready (meaning not as much Design details to go over), that have their own merits and such, it's an obstacle for these Two

 

[Perkilator]

Hah gottem

For real tho I think that’s just an optical illusion

That said, who wouldn't be surprised if Rayman got in and Sakurai joked about it?

 

[SharkLord]

I'm not saying Reimu and Shantae are impossible

I'm just saying it's an obstacle and a Disadvantage that they have. Remember that...

-Reimu and Shantae are 3rd party characters, which means that more talks have to be exchanged for design details and stuff. With Pit and Duck hunt being 1st parties that were dormant, there's more creative input the Smash dev team could put in, but with Reimu and Shantae, their Owners have to give their input

-Sans is a perfect example. Sans was originally gonna have fingers, but Toby wanted his hand to be mitts. Every small detail needs to be talked over with the creators of the I.P, and that takes time

With that being said, I'm not saying Reimu and Shantae can't be playable, but this is a disadvantage that they have, and in comparison to alot of potential characters that have 3D Assets on the ready (meaning not as much Design details to go over), that have their own merits and such, it's an obstacle for these Two

I mean Reimu's just owned by one guy, and I believe WayForward is pretty small too. It shouldn't be too hard to get things across. Heck, for all we know ZUN could be personally coding danmaku patters in Reimu's stage, just like how he coded the patterns in the Twilight Frontier games.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Reimu always felt like a potentially interesting base game pick by Nintendo where her inclusion would be no financial risk in the West. As DLC to be specifically bought, its a bit trickier to imagine them going for something with that much of an imbalance in regional popularity.

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

May I plug this since where talking about old Indie Games again

Yume Nikki, Shantae, Cave Story and Touhou all came before it, but Braid was the first indie game to break into the mainframe of gamer's conciseness. Braid made people pay attention to Indie Games. It sold really well on XBox Live Arcade and Won many awards for it's brilliant game design at the time. It was the first Truly Breakout star of the indie game world.

When talking about Indie Games in Smash, Keep Braid In mind, if we get a Crazy Indie pick, I have no doubt in mind it could be Tim.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

May I plug this since where talking about old Indie Games again

View attachment 296810

Yume Nikki, Shantae, Cave Story and Touhou all came before it, but Braid was the first indie game to break into the mainframe of gamer's conciseness. Braid made people pay attention to Indie Games. It sold really well on XBox Live Arcade and Won many awards for it's brilliant game design at the time. It was the first Truly Breakout star of the indie game world.

When talking about Indie Games in Smash, Keep Braid In mind, if we get a Crazy Indie pick, I have no doubt in mind it could be Tim.

And which is getting an anniversary release next year, and thus onto a Nintendo console for the very first time to boot.

 

[Joinallthreacs.smash]

And which is getting an anniversary release next year, and thus onto a Nintendo console for the very first time to boot.

How did I forget that

 

[Idon]

Yume Nikki, Shantae, Cave Story and Touhou all came before it, but Braid was the first indie game to break into the mainframe of gamer's conciseness. Braid made people pay attention to Indie Games. It sold really well on XBox Live Arcade and Won many awards for it's brilliant game design at the time. It was the first Truly Breakout star of the indie game world.

When talking about Indie Games in Smash, Keep Braid In mind, if we get a Crazy Indie pick, I have no doubt in mind it could be Tim.

That's complete horse****. I remember tons of indie games and developers came out that were influenced by Cave Story alone so attributing the genesis of the wave of modern Indie games to Braid alone is just ridiculous.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I mean Reimu's just owned by one guy, and I believe WayForward is pretty small too. It shouldn't be too hard to get things across. Heck, for all we know ZUN could be personally coding danmaku patters in Reimu's stage, just like how he coded the patterns in the Twilight Frontier games.

I don't think actual danmaku patterns would work in a stage since the character's hitboxes aren't the size of peas, but it would be cool for that to be Reimu's Final Smash.

 

[ZelDan]

Honestly, if Nintendo was comfortable selling as a DLC character before his game received an international release, I don't think the profitability of a fighter really matters too much.

This is something I've always pondered myself, the profitability behind fighters. Like, how well did the best selling DLC character do compared to the worst selling one? How much variance is the between all DLC fighters in terms of sales? How much sales are there just from the "I just want a complete roster" types, or those who just bought the fighters passes as soon as they were available to purchase? Etc etc...

 

[cothero]

Which Mii Costumes still haven't returned from smash 4? I can only remember of Lloyd's and the Monster Hunter ones. There's more?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Hey guys, what would be the chances of Nintendo adding a joke character as one of the DLC fighters? I'm thinking Slippy, Tingle, Bubsy, or maybe even Lester the Unlikely (the latter of whom would be a very big surprise as the Final DLC char).

They kinda already did.

Yeah, it was free at first but it's being sold for $4.99 now.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Which Mii Costumes still haven't returned from smash 4? I can only remember of Lloyd's and the Monster Hunter ones. There's more?

I think that’s about all that remain really

 

[N3ON]

Honestly, if Nintendo was comfortable selling as a DLC character before his game received an international release, I don't think the profitability of a fighter really matters too much.

The reasons a character is included as DLC aren't uniform. When you look at the first-parties that become DLC, it's clear a different agenda is at play than when you look at the third-parties. Nintendo isn't looking to first-parties to find the big names, they're doing so to find characters that can move their own products.

It's apples and oranges. Reimu is subject to the same impetus that land us characters like , not the Byleths, Corrins and Min Mins of the world.