Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Mamboo07]

honestly I still don't understand why Toad isn't in smash yet

He's too busy being part of Peach's moveset.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

これから先、いわゆる発売記念日ツイートに少し力を入れます。
発売日を調べ､新たに撮ります。日に何度か(少し空けて)投稿することもあるかも｡
続編もの等は原則『スマブラSP』に関連する作品に絞りますが、それでもかなり多そう…

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) February 14, 2021

What’s he saying here?

 

[SneakyLink]

これから先、いわゆる発売記念日ツイートに少し力を入れます。
発売日を調べ､新たに撮ります。日に何度か(少し空けて)投稿することもあるかも｡
続編もの等は原則『スマブラSP』に関連する作品に絞りますが、それでもかなり多そう…

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) February 14, 2021

What’s he saying here?

...that wasn't part of the Pic of the Day (which by the way is Street Fighter 2 anniversary!)

Google translate gave me:

From now on, I will put a little effort into so-called release anniversary tweets. Check the release date and take a new one. I may post it several times a day (with a little space). In principle, sequels will be limited to works related to "Smash Bros. SP", but it seems that there are still quite a lot ...

 

[cashregister9]

これから先、いわゆる発売記念日ツイートに少し力を入れます。
発売日を調べ､新たに撮ります。日に何度か(少し空けて)投稿することもあるかも｡
続編もの等は原則『スマブラSP』に関連する作品に絞りますが、それでもかなり多そう…

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) February 14, 2021

What’s he saying here?

There is a translation here

...in Smash Ultimate, but even then there might be a lot of games to mention...

[2/2]

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) February 14, 2021

 

[Commander_Alph]

I’m talking about how I doubt Nintendo would contact ZUN for Smash lol.

That's as easy contacting other developer, and the fact that ZUN lives in Japan and is easy to contact makes it plausible. He even indirectly work with Square Enix, well.. their subsidiary.

 

[Louie G.]

honestly I still don't understand why Toad isn't in smash yet

I think Toad has all the merit in the world to be in Smash, but over time I've come to understand his exclusion a little more. I think he's a really interesting and enlightening case so I figure I'll write a bit about it.

Toad feels like a weird omission because he's one of those characters who just feels obvious, an obligatory member of the Mario cast, etc. He's the only Mario Kart 64 character missing! But after all this time, he has to have been willingly skipped over, right? I think what it boils down to is that there's little that Toad can do which would offer anything as mechanically distinct as Rosalina's Luma or Bowser Jr's clown car, or have the same shock value / novelty as something outrageous like Piranha Plant. It's just... Toad, because duh of course it's Toad.

Which I think is both the reason why he should be added but also his detriment. I should clarify, I don't agree with the idea that Toad is automatically less interesting than the other Mario characters (I actually like simpler characters a lot of the time), but lacking the same captivating gimmicks as the Smash 4 additions or the inspiration of something like Plant probably just puts Toad as a lower priority choice lingering in this weird limbo of the "obligatory" crew, characters who Smash would just feel wrong without - who to me is just Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser - and then supporting characters like the rest. And then of course you don't want to add too many Mario characters at once. I'm certain he's been considered but other ideas have just taken precedent as being more exciting or interesting.

It kinda boils down to the lesson of "just because you try hard doesn't mean you'll make it into the battle". A funny throwaway line from Sakurai, but I think it's something that rings true as objectively iconic or important characters remain absent from a roster that has since added less significant characters. If the inspiration is elsewhere, I feel that Sakurai prioritizes the opportunity to represent fresh new mechanics and moveset ideas over "they deserve it". Because Smash is a lot more than a checklist, and Mario does pretty much have its essentials already in the form of the core four.

So Toad just needs the proper inspiration for Sakurai to pull the trigger... or a LOT of fan demand like Ridley. Toad fans are super super chill and that's great because they're swell people but it also means they're a little more passive against some of those characters who have received these major pushes convincing Sakurai to change his mind. I don't think Toad's demand has ever been strong or vocal enough for that.

I have to say though, it's kind of a shame they didn't try and capitalize on Captain Toad at least. I feel like that's Toad's best opportunity at joining the roster since he's not only the star of his own game but has some very distinct elements that would set him well apart from the others. Hopefully someday we'll see it happen, whether it's normal Toad or his Captain variant.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

1991年のきょう『STREET FIGHTER II』がリリースされたとか。
アーケードの稼働日なので、諸説あるかも。
格闘ゲームブームを築いただけではなく､多くのソフトに影響を与えた金字塔です｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/nx5q959j8X

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) February 14, 2021

"I heard that "STREET FIGHTER II" was released today in 1991. Since it is an arcade working day, there may be various theories. Not only did it build a fighting game boom, it was a monument that influenced a lot of software. #Smash Bros. SP"

 

[Will]

Since it is an arcade working day, there may be various theories.

Anyone got a goddamn clue what the **** this means? Either the translation is messed or I'm having a stroke.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Anyone got a goddamn clue what the **** this means? Either the translation is messed or I'm having a stroke.

My guess is that he's saying arcade maintenance would have been happening on the supposed release day, and that would make the game's anniversary ambiguous. But I don't know Japanese or the work culture of Japan that well, so it's just a guess.

 

[N3ON]

I think Toad hasn't made it in just because Sakurai doesn't envision him as a fighter, and he's not at the forefront of his series like Villager or subject to intense fan demand like Ridley to prompt Sakurai to reevaluate his opinion.

View attachment 303013

Anyone got a goddamn clue what the **** this means? Either the translation is messed or I'm having a stroke.

My guess, given the preceding sentence, is that it's hard to determine the actual date SF2 arrived in the arcades. Like how people aren't sure what the actual launch date was for SMB in NA.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Toad could come with new mechanics if he came with powerups and stuff. Could use those spores he currently has as part of Peach's moveset, too. Maybe a stronger version of Peach's turnip pull (like what's in PM:EX Remix and SSB Crusade) or something similar, maybe something from Wario's Woods, etc.

There is still stuff he could bring and be new and interesting in some way. At the very least, he could be fun and still interesting to play.

Yeah, but I feel Nintendo would probably drop the deal via the Fan Game Policy, as they would probably get into a Debate over their morals. Then again, it would be kinda surprising if it even got that far, considering how Nintendo operates lol.

It's got nothing to do with morals, it's Nintendo's own paranoia over legal stuffs regarding their own properties. They have no reason to care about others' policies on fan content, otherwise Steve wouldn't be here.

What is legal isn't the same as what is moral, just a whole lot of things overlap the two.

 

[cashregister9]

View attachment 303013

Anyone got a goddamn clue what the **** this means? Either the translation is messed or I'm having a stroke.

This translation makes a bit more sense

Street Fighter II was released on this day in 1991.
There is a lot of uncertainty about its release date since it came out during the arcade era.
It wasn't just responsible for the popularity of fighting games, but it's a landmark achievement that has influenced many titles. https://t.co/LRmfzSv7Fd

— Will (PushDustIn) (@PushDustIn) February 14, 2021

 

[Otoad64]

I think Toad has all the merit in the world to be in Smash, but over time I've come to understand his exclusion a little more. I think he's a really interesting and enlightening case so I figure I'll write a bit about it.

Toad feels like a weird omission because he's one of those characters who just feels obvious, an obligatory member of the Mario cast, etc. He's the only Mario Kart 64 character missing! But after all this time, he has to have been willingly skipped over, right? I think what it boils down to is that there's little that Toad can do which would offer anything as mechanically distinct as Rosalina's Luma or Bowser Jr's clown car, or have the same shock value / novelty as something outrageous like Piranha Plant. It's just... Toad, because duh of course it's Toad.

Which I think is both the reason why he should be added but also his detriment. I should clarify, I don't agree with the idea that Toad is automatically less interesting than the other Mario characters (I actually like simpler characters a lot of the time), but lacking the same captivating gimmicks as the Smash 4 additions or the inspiration of something like Plant probably just puts Toad as a lower priority choice lingering in this weird limbo of the "obligatory" crew, characters who Smash would just feel wrong without - who to me is just Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser - and then supporting characters like the rest. And then of course you don't want to add too many Mario characters at once. I'm certain he's been considered but other ideas have just taken precedent as being more exciting or interesting.

It kinda boils down to the lesson of "just because you try hard doesn't mean you'll make it into the battle". A funny throwaway line from Sakurai, but I think it's something that rings true as objectively iconic or important characters remain absent from a roster that has since added less significant characters. If the inspiration is elsewhere, I feel that Sakurai prioritizes the opportunity to represent fresh new mechanics and moveset ideas over "they deserve it". Because Smash is a lot more than a checklist, and Mario does pretty much have its essentials already in the form of the core four.

So Toad just needs the proper inspiration for Sakurai to pull the trigger... or a LOT of fan demand like Ridley. Toad fans are super super chill and that's great because they're swell people but it also means they're a little more passive against some of those characters who have received these major pushes convincing Sakurai to change his mind. I don't think Toad's demand has ever been strong or vocal enough for that.

I have to say though, it's kind of a shame they didn't try and capitalize on Captain Toad at least. I feel like that's Toad's best opportunity at joining the roster since he's not only the star of his own game but has some very distinct elements that would set him well apart from the others. Hopefully someday we'll see it happen, whether it's normal Toad or his Captain variant.

so what your saying is, that he's so obvious and obligitory, that the fact they're trying to have more interesting and bombastic reveals means they don't want to do him?

**** Rosalina, I should've known

 

[JOJONumber691]

Toad could come with new mechanics if he came with powerups and stuff. Could use those spores he currently has as part of Peach's moveset, too. Maybe a stronger version of Peach's turnip pull (like what's in PM:EX Remix and SSB Crusade) or something similar, maybe something from Wario's Woods, etc.

There is still stuff he could bring and be new and interesting in some way. At the very least, he could be fun and still interesting to play.


It's got nothing to do with morals, it's Nintendo's own paranoia over legal stuffs regarding their own properties. They have no reason to care about others' policies on fan content, otherwise Steve wouldn't be here.

What is legal isn't the same as what is moral, just a whole lot of things overlap the two.

And Minecraft is the Best Selling Game of all time! Nintendo would make that exception because it would make them more money, so, your point?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Something that I'd like to point out is that the games don't get official translations because of lack of effort, it's just that ZUN already knows the fans will send out their own patches in a couple days anyways, which removes the need to translate them himself.

Maybe, but that is NO way to expand your fanbase.

Expecting people to install a fan patch to play your game pretty much ensures that nobody that isn't already a fan is going to get into your game.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Maybe, but that is NO way to expand your fanbase.

Expecting people to install a fan patch to play your game pretty much ensures that nobody that isn't already a fan is going to get into your game.

No? How do you know that nobody will get into your game because of fan patches? That's pretty much like seeking a fan translation of Mother 3 and the old FE games there's, no different. It takes someone to have an interest to the series and proceed to search for it also, you don't even know how the Touhou community works, the series revolve around fan content which also include fan patches surprisingly and, like the others, there's a bunch of high quality translation for different language, just saying "oh, that's not how it works to expand your fanbase" need to read the room. Touhou as a fanbase works differently than other japanese game fanbase like Sakura Wars because the series is cherished from mouth to mouth around the internet.


I mean the Touhou fans rarely begged for an official translation and moreso a port for the game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

No? How do you know that nobody will get into your game because of fan patches?

Are you seriously going to try and argue that a normal gamer is going to buy a game they can't read, without a patch they don't know how to install, for a series they never heard of?

Like, yeah, I'm sure there are SOME people that would do that, but 99% of people won't. That decision is straight up ****ing themselves out of any chance of expanding their NA fanbase.

That's pretty much like seeking a fan translation of Mother 3 and the old FE games there's, no different.

Something the VAST majority of NA gamers DON'T do. And that's why Mother 3 is still kind of a cult classic in NA despite being one of the best games ever made by one of the biggest game companies.

It takes someone to have an interest to the series and proceed to search for it also, you don't even know how the Touhou community works, the series revolve around fan content

That's EXACTLY my point! Nobody who isn't ALREADY a Touhou fan knows how to get into Touhou.

It's mind boggling that there are people who wish Touhou was less niche in the west, but then also defend the creator not releasing official translations. Like...wtf?

 

[Cosmic77]

Sakurai skipped over a lot of older characters Mario characters when he chose Rosalina and Bowser Jr. (though the latter barely made it). In Ultimate, he chose a generic Piranha Plant over Toad or Waluigi.

I think the three most recent non-clone Mario characters say a lot about the problems Sakurai is facing. Toad, Daisy, and Waluigi all had a lot of material to go off of, but none of that material was special to them. Most of their notable appearances came from spinoffs, meaning that pretty much any character who was playable in those games could use the same attacks.

On the other hand, Rosalina, Bowser Jr., and Piranha Plant are all different in the sense that each has special powers and abilities that are mostly exclusive to them. You couldn't tack on a bunch of Mario Galaxy attacks to anyone besides maybe Mario and Luigi. Piranha Plant has a gazillion different weird forms; spitting poison and spiky metal balls isn't exactly a common attack for Mario characters. We do have the Koopalings, but practically nothing about the Jr. Clown Car represents their prior appearances very well. The movest was forced on them so they could exist as alts.

Point is, I think Sakurai wants to do more than just add a character. He's looking for characters who bring something to the table; something that can't be done with just anyone. Having Waluigi fight by hitting people with tennis balls, running over them with a go-kart, and referencing random Mario Party minigames is funny, but you could do that with literally every other Mario character currently in Smash without making it feel forced.

 

[Eeeyah911]

More character suggestions I have that I know will never make it in.

1. Nakoruru - Samurai Showdown
2. ??? - Tales of Vesperia (I forgot her name, but she is the girl with the pink hair)
3. Celica A. Mercury - BlazBlue
4. Chrono or Magus - Chrono Trigger
5. Claire Redfield - Resident Evil
6. Tir McDohl - Suikoden
7. Vicki - Suikoden
8. Raiden - Metal Gear Solid (and Rising)
9. Ribbon - Kirby
10. Claude Speed - Grand Theft Auto III
11. Zoroark - Pokemon: Black & White (Honestly, I think he should've been in instead of Incineroar.)
12. Cream the Rabbit - Sonic the Hedgehog
13. Charlotte Aulin - Castlevania: Portrait Of Ruin
14. White Mage - Final Fantasy (There's a Black Mage in Super Smash Flash 2, so why not? Needless to say, it won't happen.)
15. Poison - Final Fight

That is all. Like I said, I doubt if any of them would make it in.

 

[Koopaul]

Point is, I think Sakurai wants to do more than just add a character. He's looking for characters who bring something to the table; something that can't be done with just anyone. Having Waluigi fight by hitting people with tennis balls, running over them with a go-kart, and referencing random Mario Party minigames is funny, but you could do that with literally every other Mario character currently in Smash without making it feel forced.

I disagree. Who else would you make an entire Party/Sports moveset for? Waluigi. He's synonymous with those games.

But yeah I get what you're saying. Some characters have a moveset that writes itself.

 

[Goombaic]

Something that I'd like to point out is that the games don't get official translations because of lack of effort, it's just that ZUN already knows the fans will send out their own patches in a couple days anyways, which removes the need to translate them himself.

Honestly that does sound like a lack of effort. Maybe not as bad as Tabletop Simulator's developers directly telling the community to do it themselves (swear warning, not trying to censor-dodge here), but still pretty bad.

That said, denying translators any chance of getting paid is probably not a topic for the newcomer discussion board, is it?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I know that none of these characters will make it in, but I will suggest.

1. Reina - Star Ocean: The Second Story
2. Lana - Hyrule Warriors
3. Dante - Devil May Cry
4. Tsubasa Oribe - Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE (DON'T put her into the Fire Emblem category Sakurai, make her represent the game that she is from.)
5. Terra Branford - Final Fantasy VI
6. Ayumi Tachibana - ??? (What was she from again?)
7. Roxas - Kingdom Hearts (I honestly would want him to be in Smash instead of Sora.)
8. Neptune - Hyperdimension Neptunia
9. Valvatorez - Disgaea 4
10. Ninten - Earthbound Zero/Mother 1

1. Nakoruru - Samurai Showdown
2. ??? - Tales of Vesperia (I forgot her name, but she is the girl with the pink hair)
3. Celica A. Mercury - BlazBlue
4. Chrono or Magus - Chrono Trigger
5. Claire Redfield - Resident Evil
6. Tir McDohl - Suikoden
7. Vicki - Suikoden
8. Raiden - Metal Gear Solid (and Rising)
9. Ribbon - Kirby
10. Claude Speed - Grand Theft Auto III
11. Zoroark - Pokemon: Black & White (Honestly, I think he should've been in instead of Incineroar.)
12. Cream the Rabbit - Sonic the Hedgehog
13. Charlotte Aulin - Castlevania: Portrait Of Ruin
14. White Mage - Final Fantasy (There's a Black Mage in Super Smash Flash 2, so why not? Needless to say, it won't happen.)
15. Poison - Final Fight

I think the chances of the bolded ones are not 0%.

 

[Cosmic77]

I disagree. Who else would you make an entire Party/Sports moveset for? Waluigi. He's synonymous with those games.

But yeah I get what you're saying. Some characters have a moveset that writes itself.

Waluigi isn't synonymous with Mario Kart, Mario Party, or really half of the Mario spinoffs. If we keep Smash out of the conversation, I don't see why everyone would immediately think of Waluigi specifically if you brought up these games.

It's not that a spinoff moveset works better with Waluigi than any other character. It's that there's honestly not much else to go off of for Waluigi, and since Smash fans want him so badly, they're convinced that he's somehow the best character to represent this part of the Mario franchise. You could just as easily make this stuff work with Toad or Daisy if the latter wasn't already delegated to being an Echo.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Point is, I think Sakurai wants to do more than just add a character.

He pretty much confirmed this when he said "I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection". But keep in mind that doesn't mean he can't make Waluigi or Toad, in his words, "dance", or that Nintendo will never in a million years suggest them, although the challenger pack structure is still an issue.

...actually Toad might have it better thanks to Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Are you seriously going to try and argue that a normal gamer is going to buy a game they can't read without a patch they don't know how to install, for a series they never heard of?

Like, yeah, I'm sure there are SOME people that would do that, but 99% of people won't. That decision is straight up ****ing themselves out of any chance of expanding their NA fanbase.

That is the most over exaggerated thing I've ever heard. Like I said the series is spread around the internet from mouth to mouth and the internet is endless and international and you would know this because almost everyone in the world have a PC. People who play their games on Steam, using Twitter or other social media device or even surfing video game forum is those 99% people, not the other way around. For one thing that is such a good tactic because even business around the world tried to use social media to advertise their product and ZUN does this before this kind of method is popular.

Also, these fan translation are all free and already been added in the moment you install the game, at least from my experience. Seriously, how can even Touhou got these small cult following overseas when the game is never been localized? It's just that the series rarely been mentioned in a conversation and everyone only knew about the character making some sort of mandela effect. I mean there's a chance that he still want another attempt to do it with AoCF but until then just download it from the internet.


Also, if you want to play the game in english here's a site called Moriyashrine.org.

 

[Ivander]

More character suggestions I have that I know will never make it in.

1. Nakoruru - Samurai Showdown
2. ??? - Tales of Vesperia (I forgot her name, but she is the girl with the pink hair)
3. Celica A. Mercury - BlazBlue
4. Chrono or Magus - Chrono Trigger
5. Claire Redfield - Resident Evil
6. Tir McDohl - Suikoden
7. Vicki - Suikoden
8. Raiden - Metal Gear Solid (and Rising)
9. Ribbon - Kirby
10. Claude Speed - Grand Theft Auto III
11. Zoroark - Pokemon: Black & White (Honestly, I think he should've been in instead of Incineroar.)
12. Cream the Rabbit - Sonic the Hedgehog
13. Charlotte Aulin - Castlevania: Portrait Of Ruin
14. White Mage - Final Fantasy (There's a Black Mage in Super Smash Flash 2, so why not? Needless to say, it won't happen.)
15. Poison - Final Fight

That is all. Like I said, I doubt if any of them would make it in.

Estelle.

Also, I see you are a Star of Destiny as well.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

He pretty much confirmed this when he said "I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection". But keep in mind that doesn't mean he can't make Waluigi or Toad, in his words, "dance", or that Nintendo will never in a million years suggest them, although the challenger pack structure is still an issue.

...actually Toad might have it better thanks to Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker.

Toad and Captain Toad were always different characters, so it doesn't really help the guy at all(I'll edit in the link in a moment. Gotta load the website first, which'll take a bit).

Here's the link.

I feel like a part of what is giving Toad trouble getting in relates to moveset, something he has a guideline for(not that it hard disconfirms options, but it can hurt) "Something they and only they can do." Toad doesn't have his own specific moves or abilities. Waluigi even has air swimming, specific to him. Captain Toad does, however, but again, he's not actually the main Toad. He's a different character. The only odd part is Toadette, who actually is Captain Toadette(so basically she hangs out with two unrelated Toads and joins them on their adventures).

I think he'll get in eventually, but it depends if he can think of a fun moveset for him(I.E. Power-Ups as his basis, which fits well enough. Since Toad does give you them in Super Mario Bros. 3. Though I forget if that's the main Toad or just some members of the same race. He's decently associated enough with the idea, though). Is it perfect? No. But you don't need perfection. You need a flowing moveset first and foremost.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Also, these fan translation are all free and already been added in the moment you install the game

They aren't really fansubs anymore then. If they come pre-installed in the official release, then they are official subs. Even if a fan created them.

Seriously, how can even Touhou got these small cult following overseas when the game is never been localized?

Through fansubs. Not sure what you're arguing here. My point was you won't get more than a cult following if you rely on fansubs. The fansubs are what gets you even a cult following.

 

[Commander_Alph]

They aren't really fansubs anymore then. If they come pre-installed in the official release, then they are official subs. Even if a fan created them.

Through fansubs. Not sure what you're arguing here. My point was you won't get more than a cult following if you rely on fansubs. The fansubs are what gets you even a cult following.

Well, you could call it that if you want.





On the other hand not just fansub, but also fan art, fan videos or any other things that a normal community do.

 

[Ayumi Tachibana]

Smash speculation itself is a cult.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Smash speculation itself is a cult.

Thanks?

Toad and Captain Toad were always different characters, so it doesn't really help the guy at all(I'll edit in the link in a moment. Gotta load the website first, which'll take a bit).

This argument has always confused me. They might be different characters, but they are basically the exact same. If Captain Toad got in no ones gonna keep asking for Toad. And vice versa. At best you’ll get some disappointed people say they would’ve preferred the other version of Toad.
Its like wanting Bom-om from the New Paper Mario rather than wanting a standard Bom-om.

Any version of Toad helps the others chances, as they are seen as basically the same.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Keep in mind that requiring a character to "have something that no one else on the roster can do" does not mean that they have to have "something literally no other video game character can do". Like, Most of the Super Mario cast can use items, but Peach, Bowser, and Rosalina aren't really known for it and have their own thing going on, and the Mario Bros. can't do it in Super Smash Bros. due to how it contradicts their design. Similarly, every Super Mario, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, and WarioWare character on the roster can have a spin-off moveset, but for most of them, this is a terrible idea, and for Daisy, well, she doesn't, so there's no retreaded ground there.

Heck, all Isabelle does is secretary work, and due to that lack of usable source material, they gave her a director's cut version of the Villager's moveset. If that's all you need then the bar of entry isn't all that high.

Smash speculation itself is a cult.

Um...No it's not? We're not trying to get you to forsake the people close to you in the name of...I dunno, Crash in Smash or anything. We're just here talkin' 'bout stuff.

 

[DarthEnderX]

This argument has always confused me. They might be different characters, but they are basically the exact same. If Captain Toad got in no ones gonna keep asking for Toad.

Exactly. They're technically different characters, but nobody CARES that they're different characters.

That said, Captain Toad is clearly the superior choice. He has his own game, which gives him a more diverse moveset, and might have Toadette as an alt/echo(which is the REAL win).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

INB4 they pick Toadette because she can turn into Peach

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This argument has always confused me. They might be different characters, but they are basically the exact same. If Captain Toad got in no ones gonna keep asking for Toad. And vice versa. At best you’ll get some disappointed people say they would’ve preferred the other version of Toad.
Its like wanting Bom-om from the New Paper Mario rather than wanting a standard Bom-om.

Any version of Toad helps the others chances, as they are seen as basically the same.

There's no "might". I edited the link in. They're different characters full stop. Though another link notes, in the official Super Mario guide, that Captain Toad is another member of the Toad race, like Toad and Toadette are. Meant to show he's not really the same person. As I note below, they share at best similar personalities, but not abilities.

It doesn't really expand Toad's abilities because it's not Toad's. He's not just a simple generic member of the race with an ability, but a different character from a different kind of game with different abilities. The only thing they share in common beyond a race is a similar personality. The whole reason people thought they were the same was due to a Prima Strategy Guide error. Captain Toad first appeared in Super Mario Galaxy as his own person(and yeah, it seems more like generally the Toad race is presented as cowardly for the basic red/blue designs. This is common even in Super Mario 64. They didn't really start to split off till Paper Mario tried harder. Even the latest Paper Mario games do a better job separating them than the regular Mario games do. Though Galaxy does have the Toad Brigade as more brave, which is a bit why the more generic Toads in Color Splash etc. are... more brave, since they're meant to be similar).

Another good example is the lack of a playable pig form Ganon. No, Ganondorf doesn't count. He's a very different character. It's pretty much like saying you're playing as Zero Suit Samus just because regular suited Samus is there. You aren't. They're different playable characters with different abilities. Toad and Captain Toad are just as different in that regard. Your other example above isn't that great, but do keep in mind some do support specific versions of a race, or sometimes just the generic race, not a particular member either. This is mainly due to the fact that they actually have members of a specific race as defined uniquely from the actual more generic race members. They're different personalities or abilities. There's never been a defined Piranha Plant outside of Petey, and he's widely different(and also just a boss, where the regular PP playable is a combination of the various mooks, and summons Petey as a Final Smash). This is pretty much what Toad and Captain Toad are to each other. Same race, different people. Captain Toad doesn't really add anything special that the main Toad can do whatsoever. It doesn't make him more recognizable either. He already is. Since the main Toad never did anything like that, it pretty much never helped. It's why Captain Toad is sometimes a more popular request because he simply has his own moves that Toad does not.

One last thing I want to note is that Captain Toad also has a different personality trait. He's actually greedy and has a lust for treasure.

 

[N3ON]

If Smash speculation is a cult it's one of the most disorganized and discordant cults around, which makes it... not a very good cult.

You need more than just being overzealous to be a good cult.

 

[TheCJBrine]

And Minecraft is the Best Selling Game of all time! Nintendo would make that exception because it would make them more money, so, your point?

My point is you have no proof they care how others treat fanmade content. Not to mention it’s entirely for business reasons and weird legal jargon for them, and so what another company or person does regarding fan content isn’t their concern or any other business’s since it doesn’t affect their business or anything. This is not a good reason to dismiss characters.

There’s also Undertale; Toby Fox seemingly doesn’t care what fans make with his work as long as they’re not profiting off of it. But Sans still got a costume at least.

Thanks?

This argument has always confused me. They might be different characters, but they are basically the exact same. If Captain Toad got in no ones gonna keep asking for Toad. And vice versa. At best you’ll get some disappointed people say they would’ve preferred the other version of Toad.
Its like wanting Bom-om from the New Paper Mario rather than wanting a standard Bom-om.

Any version of Toad helps the others chances, as they are seen as basically the same.

I like Captain Toad but I personally do want the main Toad himself.

I honestly don’t understand why Captain Toad isn’t the same character. I assumed he was until learning he wasn’t.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

There's no "might". I edited the link in. They're different characters full stop. Though another link notes, in the official Super Mario guide, that Captain Toad is another member of the Toad race, like Toad and Toadette are. Meant to show he's not really the same person. As I note below, they share at best similar personalities, but not abilities.

It doesn't really expand Toad's abilities because it's not Toad's. He's not just a simple generic member of the race with an ability, but a different character from a different kind of game with different abilities. The only thing they share in common beyond a race is a similar personality. The whole reason people thought they were the same was due to a Prima Strategy Guide error. Captain Toad first appeared in Super Mario Galaxy as his own person(and yeah, it seems more like generally the Toad race is presented as cowardly for the basic red/blue designs. This is common even in Super Mario 64. They didn't really start to split off till Paper Mario tried harder. Even the latest Paper Mario games do a better job separating them than the regular Mario games do. Though Galaxy does have the Toad Brigade as more brave, which is a bit why the more generic Toads in Color Splash etc. are... more brave, since they're meant to be similar).

Another good example is the lack of a playable pig form Ganon. No, Ganondorf doesn't count. He's a very different character. It's pretty much like saying you're playing as Zero Suit Samus just because regular suited Samus is there. You aren't. They're different playable characters with different abilities. Toad and Captain Toad are just as different in that regard. Your other example above isn't that great, but do keep in mind some do support specific versions of a race, or sometimes just the generic race, not a particular member either. This is mainly due to the fact that they actually have members of a specific race as defined uniquely from the actual more generic race members. They're different personalities or abilities. There's never been a defined Piranha Plant outside of Petey, and he's widely different(and also just a boss, where the regular PP playable is a combination of the various mooks, and summons Petey as a Final Smash). This is pretty much what Toad and Captain Toad are to each other. Same race, different people. Captain Toad doesn't really add anything special that the main Toad can do whatsoever. It doesn't make him more recognizable either. He already is. Since the main Toad never did anything like that, it pretty much never helped. It's why Captain Toad is sometimes a more popular request because he simply has his own moves that Toad does not.

One last thing I want to note is that Captain Toad also has a different personality trait. He's actually greedy and has a lust for treasure.

Toad's honestly just a super weird character. He's a named but not really character that appears exclusively in the party spinoffs and is visually indistinguishable from generic members of his species that have the same cap color. Then there's also now a named character-Captain Toad-that looks exactly like him, just with a different outfit, pretty much removing the necessity of Toad himself. I've even been told that Toad the character doesn't even exist and the U.S. just made him up.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

There's no "might". I edited the link in. They're different characters full stop. Though another link notes, in the official Super Mario guide, that Captain Toad is another member of the Toad race, like Toad and Toadette are. Meant to show he's not really the same person. As I note below, they share at best similar personalities, but not abilities.

It doesn't really expand Toad's abilities because it's not Toad's. He's not just a simple generic member of the race with an ability, but a different character from a different kind of game with different abilities. The only thing they share in common beyond a race is a similar personality. The whole reason people thought they were the same was due to a Prima Strategy Guide error. Captain Toad first appeared in Super Mario Galaxy as his own person(and yeah, it seems more like generally the Toad race is presented as cowardly for the basic red/blue designs. This is common even in Super Mario 64. They didn't really start to split off till Paper Mario tried harder. Even the latest Paper Mario games do a better job separating them than the regular Mario games do. Though Galaxy does have the Toad Brigade as more brave, which is a bit why the more generic Toads in Color Splash etc. are... more brave, since they're meant to be similar).

Another good example is the lack of a playable pig form Ganon. No, Ganondorf doesn't count. He's a very different character. It's pretty much like saying you're playing as Zero Suit Samus just because regular suited Samus is there. You aren't. They're different playable characters with different abilities. Toad and Captain Toad are just as different in that regard. Your other example above isn't that great, but do keep in mind some do support specific versions of a race, or sometimes just the generic race, not a particular member either. This is mainly due to the fact that they actually have members of a specific race as defined uniquely from the actual more generic race members. They're different personalities or abilities. There's never been a defined Piranha Plant outside of Petey, and he's widely different(and also just a boss, where the regular PP playable is a combination of the various mooks, and summons Petey as a Final Smash). This is pretty much what Toad and Captain Toad are to each other. Same race, different people. Captain Toad doesn't really add anything special that the main Toad can do whatsoever. It doesn't make him more recognizable either. He already is. Since the main Toad never did anything like that, it pretty much never helped. It's why Captain Toad is sometimes a more popular request because he simply has his own moves that Toad does not.

One last thing I want to note is that Captain Toad also has a different personality trait. He's actually greedy and has a lust for treasure.

You misunderstand me. I’m not saying they aren’t different, aesthetics and moveset is a way in which they differ. As well as all the others.
I’m just saying that nobody actually sees them as all that different. At the end of the day, its still just Toad. Regardless of whether or not they have a suit on, its still just a version of Toad. When people say they want Toad, 9/10 times they are also talking about Captain Toad.

Pig Ganon isn’t wanted because hes a wanted inclusion next to Ganondorf, hes wanted so one of gamings most iconic can be done as anything other than a semi clone. And I don’t think anybody cares about ZSS outside of moveset.

 

[Idon]

I swear this is Bandanna Waddle Dee discourse all over again.