Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

Sometimes I feel like our version of "iconic" is a little out of whack.

It seems odd that Dante, 2B, and Lloyd (not to knock these characters, they're still very cool) are all considered iconic because they're the main character in franchises that have about 20 million copies sold but characters like Waluigi and Knuckles, supporting characters in franchises with 716 million and 140 copies sold, are not.

Barney the Dinosaur is NOT iconic. He's not a character from a children's program that has the voice of a guy who programmed Texas Instruments calculators and was so universally recognized that everyone wanted him dead and sang violent schoolyard songs about said desire. I don't know why you would think that.

But... The Flea from Mucha Lucha? THAT guy... TOTALLY iconic! Voice of a generation! His battles with the Masked Toilet will be remembered til the end of time, as will his farts. Poooooooooooooooot!

Butt Ugly Martians are ALSO iconic. They didn't want to have a war, they just wanted to hoverboard. They didn't want to conquer earth, they just wanted to fill their girth. SO iconic. Instantly recognizable by all who lay eyes upon B-bop-a-Luna and Do-wah Diddy.




Jokes aside, this is a good time to bring up the whole "Sakurai said it's not just important that they're recognizable, it's important that they bring something to the game" thinger. Paraphrasing and such. I'd phrase better but it's Saturday. No phrasing better on Saturday.

 

[Pillow]

Iconic is a meaningless qualifier. Either it's applied universally and largely in hindsight to every character we receive, or not every character on the roster is iconic, making it a feature unnecessary for inclusion.

I disagree with this. A character does not need to be iconic to be included into Smash, but it's still a qualifiable status that can be applied onto characters as reasoning for their inclusion. Most of the 3rd Party characters added to Smash hold this title, in my opinion. The ones that don't (Bayonetta, Joker, Terry, Banjo) have other reasons why they were added.

Though I will also say that as the potential list of newcomers grows smaller, so does the importance of their relative iconicness within video game fandom. If iconicness was the only thing that mattered then Jill Valentine, Lara Croft, Chun-Li, and Master Chief would've been shoe-ins for DLC.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Barney the Dinosaur is NOT iconic. He's a dinosaur from our imagination.

Sorry. It had to be done.

 

[M@R!3]

What's a character that you want to see in Smash just for the music that they'd bring?

For me, it's Eggman. Even if we don't take into account how odd it is that Sonic only has one playable character in Smash after all of this time, Eggman getting in would mean that we could get songs like E.G.G.M.A.N., Death Egg Robot, Final Zone, Reach for the Stars (Orchestra Version), Big Arm, Final Boss (Showdown), and Doomsday Zone, among many, many, many others. (I'm just going with songs that are directly tied to Eggman - there's a ton of great music in Sonic games that Smash isn't using, and if Eggman's inclusion can be used as an excuse for us to get Chemical Plant Zone or any of its remixes from Generations or Mania, then I'm all for it)

Gonna have to chime in for Sora as well. There's so much great music in Kingdom Hearts that it's hard to just pick a few of them.

The major boss themes are very common requests so I'll list some of the more general themes instead.
Vim and Vigor
Rowdy Rumble
The Encounter
Tension Rising
The Deep End
Shrouding Dark Cloud
Destiny's Force
Fragments of Sorrow
Anger Unchained
Eye of the Storm
Wave of Darkness 1
Edge of Existence

KH3 is kind of hard to pull from without getting redundant since it has a lot of encounter specific remixes, though the various Organization themes in Remind and Nachtflugel are some of the best music in the entire series.

 

[Paraster]

What's a character that you want to see in Smash just for the music that they'd bring?

For me, it's Eggman. Even if we don't take into account how odd it is that Sonic only has one playable character in Smash after all of this time, Eggman getting in would mean that we could get songs like E.G.G.M.A.N., Death Egg Robot, Final Zone, Reach for the Stars (Orchestra Version), Big Arm, Final Boss (Showdown), and Doomsday Zone, among many, many, many others. (I'm just going with songs that are directly tied to Eggman - there's a ton of great music in Sonic games that Smash isn't using, and if Eggman's inclusion can be used as an excuse for us to get Chemical Plant Zone or any of its remixes from Generations or Mania, then I'm all for it)

I'd love to see music from Cave Story, The World Ends With You, Undertale/Deltarune (yeah, we have MEGALOVANIA, but we could have so much more), Crypt of the NecroDancer, and Touhou.

 

[Pillow]

I'd love to see music from Cave Story, The World Ends With You, Undertale/Deltarune (yeah, we have MEGALOVANIA, but we could have so much more), Crypt of the NecroDancer, and Touhou.

Please let me play Smash and die inside at the same time.

 

[Truth the Ceomasterz33]

Will be new Smash DLC?

 

[ARandomZoomer]

Half of my most wanted come from games with great soundtrack, so I want them both because of characters representation and new songs coming to Smash.
If I have to choose one, I'd say Grovyle, because Explorers of Sky has the best Pokémon ost, which is also one of my favourite of all time! More than 6 hours of great, adventurous, emotional songs and fine musical storytelling with those leitmotives!

Choosing a character who is not one of my most wanted is actually pretty easy: I'd say Reimu beacuse... well, Touhou music is just amazing and I think it deserves to be in Smash! My favourite track is probably Necrofantasia from Touhou 7 (I only tried 6 and 7).

Speaking of Eggman, I haven't played many Sonic games, so I don't know all the songs. But I want to add this specific song from Sonic Advance 3 to your list:

The lack of pokemon spin off content in smash wounds me. Arguably more of my childhood than the main games.

 

[Banado_Boy]

What's a character that you want to see in Smash just for the music that they'd bring?

For me, it's Eggman. Even if we don't take into account how odd it is that Sonic only has one playable character in Smash after all of this time, Eggman getting in would mean that we could get songs like E.G.G.M.A.N., Death Egg Robot, Final Zone, Reach for the Stars (Orchestra Version), Big Arm, Final Boss (Showdown), and Doomsday Zone, among many, many, many others. (I'm just going with songs that are directly tied to Eggman - there's a ton of great music in Sonic games that Smash isn't using, and if Eggman's inclusion can be used as an excuse for us to get Chemical Plant Zone or any of its remixes from Generations or Mania, then I'm all for it)

Any Disgaea character. Listening to the music got me to try the series out when the complete edition of the original game was on an eShop sale around October-ish (Played 1 & 4, and am currently playing Disgaea 5). Ode to Laharl, Tomo yo, Sinful Rose, Etna Rock, and White Tiger are some tracks I like to listen to, with Sinful Rose being my favorite out of that bunch due to me being a sucker for violins.

 

[N3ON]

Jokes aside, this is a good time to bring up the whole "Sakurai said it's not just important that they're recognizable, it's important that they bring something to the game" thinger. Paraphrasing and such. I'd phrase better but it's Saturday. No phrasing better on Saturday.

There's some important things to note in this much-toted phrase. First, being not just recognizable but also fun to play, includes being recognizable. It's literally in the sentence.

Second, the characters to which Sakurai applied this qualifier were not, y'know, highly niche individuals. He used this to justify the inclusions of Terry and Samus. That's where he's set the bar.

Third, true as the statement might be, he's also excluded characters for not being known widely enough, such as characters (mostly) exclusive to a single region, typically Japan. So there is a floor to this thing.

My intention is not to pick on anyone's specific invoking of this phrase, so much as I just see it being used in questionable fashion to justify choices that... do not exactly align with the actual content and context of how and when it was said.

I disagree with this. A character does not need to be iconic to be included into Smash, but it's still a qualifiable status that can be applied onto characters as reasoning for their inclusion. Most of the 3rd Party characters added to Smash hold this title, in my opinion. The ones that don't (Bayonetta, Joker, Terry, Banjo) have other reasons why they were added. Though I will also say that as the potential list of newcomers grows smaller, so does the importance of their relative iconicness within video game fandom.

No, iconography has a correlation to some inclusions, but it doesn't not have a causation. The variable that gets them in is something like success, prevalence, or popularity. Those qualities usually have a positive relationship with iconography, but being an icon is subjective, unquantifiable, and inconsistent with the reality of the roster.

That's not my point though. My point was because it's of only inconsistent application, to which you yourself have attested, arguing who does or doesn't still qualify under that label (as if a consensus were possible) is pointless. People treat it as a prohibitive binary. You either qualify, and can get included, or don't, and won't. I know you didn't do this, but that is largely how it is handled.

And to that end, you have the two options I highlighted, both of which reinforce the notion of focusing on iconography as futile.

 

[Pillow]

No, iconography has a correlation to some inclusions, but it doesn't not have a causation. The variable that gets them in is something like success, prevalence, or popularity. Those qualities usually have a positive relationship with iconography, but being an icon is subjective, unquantifiable, and inconsistent with the reality of the roster.

That's not my point though. My point was because it's of only inconsistent application, to which you yourself have attested, arguing who does or doesn't still qualify under that label (as if a consensus were possible) is pointless. People treat it as a prohibitive binary. You either qualify, and can get included, or don't, and won't. I know you didn't do this, but that is largely how it is handled.

And to that end, you have the two options I highlighted, both of which reinforce the notion of focusing on iconography as futile.

Iconography is subjective, but I definitely wouldn't call it unquantifiable. Using the qualities you described, I'd liken it most to prevalence and popularity among laymen or within the general population (the reason I mentioned Jill, Chun, Lara specifically is because they have Hollywood live action movies and in my mind you can't really get more iconic than that). To clarify, most people have some line they draw somewhere where they would describe a character as iconic, or not, but the scale still exists. For pretty much anyone, I doubt there would be an argument that there exists a more iconic video game character than Mario.

But that's neither here nor there, and we could argue over the semantics of its definition endlessly, and in the end you're correct - being an icon is not necessary to be included into Smash. I didn't even realize that people saw things this way, because a large portion of the Smash roster is, in my opinion, definitively not iconic (Fire Emblem characters are particularly guilty of this, and this is one reason I believe this franchise in general gets so much hate).

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

Regardless of whether one treats "icon" status as a prerequisite for Smash, you still end up with the unsolvable predicament of trying to quantify something so subjective. No amount of discussion of sales data, adaptations, cross-references, or cultural allusions will ever leave everyone with a satisfactory answer. One person's icon is another person's "literally who?" and no attempt at definition will resolve that.

 

[Pillow]

Regardless of whether one treats "icon" status as a prerequisite for Smash, you still end up with the unsolvable predicament of trying to quantify something so subjective. No amount of discussion of sales data, adaptations, cross-references, or cultural allusions will ever leave everyone with a satisfactory answer. One person's icon is another person's "literally who?" and no attempt at definition will resolve that.

I wasn't exactly trying to resolve the fact that being considered an "icon" is a nebulous title. I was mostly trying to point out that a large number of characters within the Smash roster are ones that are widely considered to be video game icons, and if a character outside of Smash is also considered to be a video game icon, then that fact may contribute to the reasoning for their potential inclusion in Smash.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

(the reason I mentioned Jill, Chun, Lara specifically is because they have Hollywood live action movies and in my mind you can't really get more iconic than that)

I wouldn't say having a movie would mean that you are iconic, or that having one would make you iconic either. It does mean that the Hollywood suits see the movie profiting, but a lot of times they're just trying to grab the existing audience, which is usually the gaming crowd in this case. The success of the movies vary wildly as well, with the Resident Evil movies being so successful that there's like, 5 of them, and the Street Fighter movie only really living on through memes.

Also I don't think the movies would be the reason why Jill is iconic because she was only in 2 of them and both times she was overshadowed by Alex.

Regardless of whether one treats "icon" status as a prerequisite for Smash, you still end up with the unsolvable predicament of trying to quantify something so subjective. No amount of discussion of sales data, adaptations, cross-references, or cultural allusions will ever leave everyone with a satisfactory answer. One person's icon is another person's "literally who?" and no attempt at definition will resolve that.

It also changes depending on what you're talking about. Like, I don't think many people would disagree with me saying that Caeda is an iconic Fire Emblem character, but I would be laughed out of here if I said that Caeda was simply an iconic character.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Iconography is subjective, but I definitely wouldn't call it unquantifiable. Using the qualities you described, I'd liken it most to prevalence and popularity among laymen or within the general population (the reason I mentioned Jill, Chun, Lara specifically is because they have Hollywood live action movies and in my mind you can't really get more iconic than that). But that's neither here nor there, and we could argue over the semantics of its definition endlessly, and in the end you're correct - being an icon is not necessary to be included into Smash. I didn't even realize that people saw things this way, because a large portion of the Smash roster is, in my opinion, definitively not iconic (Fire Emblem characters are particularly guilty of this, and this is one reason I believe this franchise in general gets so much hate).

I think the argument was intended more for 3rd party's than 1st party's seeing how the bar is much lower for Nintendo owned characters as just being one can get you into Smash in some form, While 3rd party's for the "Most" part are usually "Icons" or are usually viewed as an "All-Star" level type of a significant character.

 

[Pillow]

I wouldn't say having a movie would mean that you are iconic, or that having one would make you iconic either. It does mean that the Hollywood suits see the movie profiting, but a lot of times they're just trying to grab the existing audience, which is usually the gaming crowd in this case. The success of the movies vary wildly as well, with the Resident Evil movies being so successful that there's like, 5 of them, and the Street Fighter movie only really living on through memes.

Well I think it would be the reverse, the movies aren't the reason they're iconic, but rather they get movie adaptations because they're so iconic. Hollywood often caters to the lowest common denominator. These movies are made because Hollywood suits think that people are familiar enough with the subject matter to the point where they'll buy a ticket.

I think the argument was intended more for 3rd party's than 1st party's seeing how the bar is much lower for Nintendo owned characters as just being one can get you into Smash in some form, While 3rd party's for the "Most" part are usually "Icons" or are usually an "All-Star" level of significant character.

In that case I can see why there's so much contention. All of Smash's 3rd parties are definitely at least semi-well known, popular, recognizable, etc. but whether some of them are iconic or not is definitely open to debate. Pretty much all of them except Sonic and Pacman (both of whom I would claim to be objectively iconic) fall into the grey zone area.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

In that case I can see why there's so much contention. All of Smash's 3rd parties are definitely at least semi-well known, popular, recognizable, etc. but whether some of them are iconic or not is definitely open to debate. Pretty much all of them except Sonic and Pacman (both of whom I would claim to be objectively iconic) fall into the grey zone area.

I can agree with that, In terms of the biggest icons and most recognizable worldwide in not just games, But to the average person and in pop culture are definitely...

1st party - Mario and Pikachu

3rd Party - Pac-Man and Sonic the Hedgehog

That's not to say that their the only icons in Smash, Far from that actually, But they are without a doubt the most well known video game characters in the world.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think the deal here is that icon status is nebulous, subjective, and relative, but it's main factors, recognizably and appeal, aren't. They aren't reliably measurable, but we do at least have the same idea of what that means, it doesn't change based on context, and we can get a rough idea, though admittedly the further from our part of the audience we go the rougher that idea gets. In that way I would say that using those factors is a much better idea since it'll be way easier to communicate.

Semi-unrelated, but I think there's a bit of irony here in that a common (at least to my perception) connotation of the word iconic is that if you stopped a bunch of random people on the street, they'd be able to identify the character (even if it's just "that one guy from x"), and we make the case for a ton of characters being like this, but in reality, the general public doesn't know squat about video games and the number of characters with that status probably doesn't even crack 25.

 

[Mamboo07]

What's a character that you want to see in Smash just for the music that they'd bring?

For me, it's Eggman. Even if we don't take into account how odd it is that Sonic only has one playable character in Smash after all of this time, Eggman getting in would mean that we could get songs like E.G.G.M.A.N., Death Egg Robot, Final Zone, Reach for the Stars (Orchestra Version), Big Arm, Final Boss (Showdown), and Doomsday Zone, among many, many, many others. (I'm just going with songs that are directly tied to Eggman - there's a ton of great music in Sonic games that Smash isn't using, and if Eggman's inclusion can be used as an excuse for us to get Chemical Plant Zone or any of its remixes from Generations or Mania, then I'm all for it)

Shake King from Wario Land, there's only one song. ONE. SONG.

So many possibilities like Greenhorn Ruins, Glittertown, Wreck Train and many more.
(The Land series is pretty much terribly represented.)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Shake King from Wario Land, there's only one song. ONE. SONG.

Technically 0 songs, as Ruins is a remix of Wario's Victory Fanfare.

 

[Pillow]

Semi-unrelated, but I think there's a bit of irony here in that a common (at least to my perception) connotation of the word iconic is that if you stopped a bunch of random people on the street, they'd be able to identify the character (even if it's just "that one guy from x"), and we make the case for a ton of characters being like this, but in reality, the general public doesn't know squat about video games and the number of characters with that status probably doesn't even crack 25.

“Yeah, I recognize that robot. His name is Wall-E right ?”

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

“Yeah, I recognize that robot. His name is Wall-E right ?”

"No Wall-E's the cuboid robot."
"Oh, so he's from Minecraft then?"

 

[PeridotGX]

Semi-unrelated, but I think there's a bit of irony here in that a common (at least to my perception) connotation of the word iconic is that if you stopped a bunch of random people on the street, they'd be able to identify the character (even if it's just "that one guy from x"), and we make the case for a ton of characters being like this, but in reality, the general public doesn't know squat about video games and the number of characters with that status probably doesn't even crack 25.

Smash fan on their way to their neighbor's house to find out if they know who lloyd irving is

 

[Speed Weed]

Smash fan on their way to their neighbor's house to find out if they know who lloyd irving is

this is my favorite gif

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Semi-unrelated, but I think there's a bit of irony here in that a common (at least to my perception) connotation of the word iconic is that if you stopped a bunch of random people on the street, they'd be able to identify the character (even if it's just "that one guy from x"), and we make the case for a ton of characters being like this, but in reality, the general public doesn't know squat about video games and the number of characters with that status probably doesn't even crack 25.

I think this mostly comes up when people are comparing how well known multiple characters are. Like say, Dante vs. Mega Man. I agree the number that would be known by everyone and their mom is small, but there's usually more context going on with the discussion.

But, uh, my mom knows who Toad is. And she knows maybe 10 video game characters. Just sayin'.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think this mostly comes up when people are comparing how well known multiple characters are. Like say, Dante vs. Mega Man. I agree the number that would be known by everyone and their mom is small, but there's usually more context going on with the discussion.

That makes sense to some extent. I guess the issue there is that characters' recognizably can get so close that we don't have a good enough barometer to actually make a definitive judgement, especially when their appeal is different.

But, uh, my mom knows who Toad is. And she knows maybe 10 video game characters. Just sayin'.

It's wild how the Toad species as a whole has gone through 7 (likely even 8), rounds of character considerations without getting picked.

 

[CureParfait]

What's a character that you want to see in Smash just for the music that they'd bring?

For me, it's Eggman. Even if we don't take into account how odd it is that Sonic only has one playable character in Smash after all of this time, Eggman getting in would mean that we could get songs like E.G.G.M.A.N., Death Egg Robot, Final Zone, Reach for the Stars (Orchestra Version), Big Arm, Final Boss (Showdown), and Doomsday Zone, among many, many, many others. (I'm just going with songs that are directly tied to Eggman - there's a ton of great music in Sonic games that Smash isn't using, and if Eggman's inclusion can be used as an excuse for us to get Chemical Plant Zone or any of its remixes from Generations or Mania, then I'm all for it)

Boyfriend of Friday Night Funkin since I really love the music from that series. MapleStory and Dungeon Fighter Online rep would bring music I love a lot as well.

 

[DanganZilla5]

What's a character that you want to see in Smash just for the music that they'd bring?

For me, it's Eggman. Even if we don't take into account how odd it is that Sonic only has one playable character in Smash after all of this time, Eggman getting in would mean that we could get songs like E.G.G.M.A.N., Death Egg Robot, Final Zone, Reach for the Stars (Orchestra Version), Big Arm, Final Boss (Showdown), and Doomsday Zone, among many, many, many others. (I'm just going with songs that are directly tied to Eggman - there's a ton of great music in Sonic games that Smash isn't using, and if Eggman's inclusion can be used as an excuse for us to get Chemical Plant Zone or any of its remixes from Generations or Mania, then I'm all for it)

Even though I have not played a Touhou game, this is the reason why I still would like to see Reimu in Smash. We would undoubtedly get a lot of music, maybe even more than Terry. That would be great as Touhou's music slaps hard. There are a large variety of songs and so many of them are bangers.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Smash fan on their way to their neighbor's house to find out if they know who lloyd irving is

The Boys looks a lot different than how i remember

Even though I have not played a Touhou game, this is the reason why I still would like to see Reimu in Smash. We would undoubtedly get a lot of music, maybe even more than Terry. That would be great as Touhou's music slaps hard. There are a large variety of songs and so many of them are bangers.

dude imagine if we got professional remixes by doujin circles tho like u see everywhere on youtube

 

[7NATOR]

I would Say Knuckles and Shadow are around the same league as Sephiroth and Chun-Li

Sonic 3 & Knuckles is among conversations for best Sonic game. He's had his own game (which was kinda niche, but still), and he's had Memes that have even went into the mainstream, with Ugandan Knuckles, & Knuckles, and all that. This is not even including how frequent he makes appearances in Sonic media

SA2 is also among conversations for Best Sonic game, and was the Sonic game that introduced Sonic to the Nintendo audience. Shadow also had his own game, which despite the controversary, actually sold really well and is a game that is known among gaming populace, for better or for worse. He doesn't make as frequent apperances as Eggman, Tails, & Knuckles, but he does make apperances none the less because he's still really popular, and honestly important to introducing new fans or getting more people interested in Sonic

Knuckles and Shadow I don't think are characters carried by the Sonic name. I mean of course they will be carried to some extent, but they are also Iconic characters on their own. But I do think Eggman and Tails are probably more known because both of these characters make more apperances.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Sometimes I feel like our version of "iconic" is a little out of whack.

It seems odd that Dante, 2B, and Lloyd (not to knock these characters, they're still very cool) are all considered iconic because they're the main character in franchises that have about 20 million copies sold but characters like Waluigi and Knuckles, supporting characters in franchises with 716 million and 140 copies sold, are not.

Did someone say that Waluigi isn't iconic?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

So, as most of you are aware. Astral Chain is now fully owned by Nintendo for some reason. Do you guys think this increases the chance of a sequel? Or a Smash Character next game?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

But, uh, my mom knows who Toad is. And she knows maybe 10 video game characters. Just sayin'.

It's wild how the Toad species as a whole has gone through 7 (likely even 8), rounds of character considerations without getting picked.

I guess we'll have to settle with mods in the meantime.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So, as most of you are aware. Astral Chain is now fully owned by Nintendo for some reason. Do you guys think this increases the chance of a sequel? Or a Smash Character next game?

Sequel yes.

Smash character. No unless we get a Pass 3 or Post-Pass 2 individual DLC as they had a spirit event during Pass 2.

 

[Otoad64]

So, as most of you are aware. Astral Chain is now fully owned by Nintendo for some reason. Do you guys think this increases the chance of a sequel? Or a Smash Character next game?

don't know about a sequel, but I wouldn't be suprised if they did get in smash 6 now.

 

[Idon]

Smash character. No unless we get a Pass 3 or Post-Pass 2 individual DLC as they had a spirit event during Pass 2.

They said "next game" in which case yeah I do think they are a shoe in for a hypothetical Smash 6.

Hopefully.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

They said "next game" in which case yeah I do think they are a shoe in for a hypothetical Smash 6.

Hopefully.

Ah didn't see that.

In that case yes I think Akira Howard is fairly likely for next game.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Sequel yes.

Smash character. No unless we get a Pass 3 or Post-Pass 2 individual DLC as they had a spirit event during Pass 2.

OR the next Smash game/Ultimate Deluxe

'd

 

[Truth the Ceomasterz33]

Calling as Shulk jr. referring as?

 

[SharkLord]

So, as most of you are aware. Astral Chain is now fully owned by Nintendo for some reason. Do you guys think this increases the chance of a sequel? Or a Smash Character next game?

I'd say yes. It sold over a million copies and was deemed a success. Looks like Nintendo sees it as a keeper.