SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
I bet you Sakurai would try his hardest to bend this as much as possible though. Perhaps we'd get beginning of Sonic Adventure 2 Shadow instead of post Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) Shadow.
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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II
- Thread starter Cyn
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As for my personal opinion on the Sonic content...
It's complicated.
Twenty tracks and two stages are fine, but the second stage is an underwhelming choice (which certainly looks like it was chosen with a promotional angle) and the amount of tracks introduced in 4 / Ultimate is a bit on the small side. Not as ludicrous as the 5 years FF spent with the "2 songs" meme, but still small enough to raise an eye. There's a legitimate point to be made that Castlevania and SNK have set the bar for "generous" music licenses and perhaps - if I may be so bold - "spoiled" people, although there are a lot of follow up questions to that as a result.
As for Sonic's moveset, some of my issues with it are also applicable to fellow Brawl newcomer Toon Link - it feels like they're sticking a bit too closely to how Sonic was first implemented, instead of taking the time to try an implement a new B move or whatever. TBF, he did get a new dash attack and adjustments to how the moveset functions overall. Others come from personal frustration with how the character plays (although that might be mostly the online really - we'll have to see when offline tournaments come back in full force). I've warmed up a bit to the moveset since it can certainly be used aggressively, but there are still a couple changes I'd like to see.
There are some aspects of the moveset I'd like to see changed, as said before. Two examples:
* If possible, merge Spin Dash / Spin Charge, tweak the merged move so he can access either (but making it a bit less safe) and give him Lightspeed Dash or Boost as a new Side B. It reflects my personal preference towards aggresive play, but giving him one of these would be very interesting potentially commital options. Spin Dash / Spin Charge being two separate moves seems a bit superflous or even a little confusing, even if my opinion on those two have calmed down a bit.
Or:
* Some changes to his aerials. I've seen Sonic Eagle from Sonic Battle used as a F-Air (in Project M for example) and it's a great example of what I mean. Related to that, give him a bit more flair pls.
To be clear, I don't want to neuter the hit-and-run style completely, just tone its presence down a tad and introduce aggresive elements so Sonic can play both more consistently.
It's complicated.
Twenty tracks and two stages are fine, but the second stage is an underwhelming choice (which certainly looks like it was chosen with a promotional angle) and the amount of tracks introduced in 4 / Ultimate is a bit on the small side. Not as ludicrous as the 5 years FF spent with the "2 songs" meme, but still small enough to raise an eye. There's a legitimate point to be made that Castlevania and SNK have set the bar for "generous" music licenses and perhaps - if I may be so bold - "spoiled" people, although there are a lot of follow up questions to that as a result.
As for Sonic's moveset, some of my issues with it are also applicable to fellow Brawl newcomer Toon Link - it feels like they're sticking a bit too closely to how Sonic was first implemented, instead of taking the time to try an implement a new B move or whatever. TBF, he did get a new dash attack and adjustments to how the moveset functions overall. Others come from personal frustration with how the character plays (although that might be mostly the online really - we'll have to see when offline tournaments come back in full force). I've warmed up a bit to the moveset since it can certainly be used aggressively, but there are still a couple changes I'd like to see.
That's certainly the main part of it. Sonic is buffed on Wi-Fi because the online lag / netcode makes a lot of Sonic's moves much more difficult to react to. Competitive people were forced to migrate online due to the lockdown and everything: it's the big reason why there was this wave of dislike heaped at the playstyle a 6 or so months ago (similar to the dislike Min Min's currently facing amongst Japan's competitive scene, although the two examples are a little different).
There are some aspects of the moveset I'd like to see changed, as said before. Two examples:
* If possible, merge Spin Dash / Spin Charge, tweak the merged move so he can access either (but making it a bit less safe) and give him Lightspeed Dash or Boost as a new Side B. It reflects my personal preference towards aggresive play, but giving him one of these would be very interesting potentially commital options. Spin Dash / Spin Charge being two separate moves seems a bit superflous or even a little confusing, even if my opinion on those two have calmed down a bit.
Or:
* Some changes to his aerials. I've seen Sonic Eagle from Sonic Battle used as a F-Air (in Project M for example) and it's a great example of what I mean. Related to that, give him a bit more flair pls.
To be clear, I don't want to neuter the hit-and-run style completely, just tone its presence down a tad and introduce aggresive elements so Sonic can play both more consistently.
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Otoad64
Smash Lord
I mean, would that be much better? I'd rather him be wannabe vegeta than an actual villain
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
Crackpot Smash Ideas: Nether and End biomes have been added to Minecraft World. If Steve gets put to sleep in these biomes, he explodes.
cashregister9
Smash Hero
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The Sonic restrictions i'm pretty sure is all Ken Penders fault
even if it isn't
**** Ken Penders.
even if it isn't
**** Ken Penders.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Actually would be pretty cool IMO
Þe 1 → Way
Smash Champion
That is amazing, though I think it’d be way funnier if everyone exploded. Sleep moves are the most feared attacks in the game when on the stage.
SharkLord
Smash Hero
Otoad64
Smash Lord
wait if jigglypuff used rest would they explode?
Þe 1 → Way
Smash Champion
Yes, an instant kill making Sing more feared than Rest. Heros Snooze spell would become an extremely rare find that opponents would do anything to escape.
God, I want this now haha.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Have we had any major rumors spread around recently? Haven't been keeping up with speculation that much.
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
Poor Jigglypuff. Sing is too short ranged to avoid the explosion, and Rest causes it to explode regardless if it hit or not.
Funny how a funny attention to detail idea expanded into Sleep: Michael Bay Edition.
Rie Sonomura
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I wish
no, really
all we got from last year are:
- League of Legends rep with Trials of Mana Spirit Event (check), League-universe spin-offs coming to consoles (check) and Hollow Knight PreMiium Swordfighter with a Sealed Vessel remix (TBD)
- Falcom rep (only Adol or Rean, no mention of Estelle) that predicted Cold Steel switch release dates or something
- 5ch leak that predicted Sephiroth and said KOS-MOS, Reimu Hakurei and Crash Bandicoot were coming and that no DLC mii costumes from 4 would become playable in Ultimate’s DLC. so far this has held up with the Geno costume returning
- The Chun-Lloyd rumor even though that seems to be for the base game only, no guarantee Chun-li, Lloyd or Yuri Lowell will be DLC
- EDIT 1/29 I just remembered there’s also a rumor about an Apex Legends character and music in Smash that Nintendo paid for in 2019. However, given that it was only said on a thread in GameFAQs, and the person who said it has no verifiable credibility and there’s not much else to this rumor I’m taking this with not a grain of salt but the entire salt shaker
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chocolatejr9
Smash Hero
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Didn't he claim to own the rights to Shade the Echidna, even though that shouldn't be possible? Yeah, he's the worst...
Wait, why are we talking about Sonic again?
SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
I believe it started with musing what Dr. Eggman would come with.
EDIT: Like, songs n' Spirits n' stuff.
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SharkLord
Smash Hero
Well, there's one supposedly detailing characters who were negotiated for at some point but didn't turn up in the base game. This includes Erdrick and Steve, who are rumored to and confirmed to be planned for a while. It also elaborated on Squeenix characters; Sora was dropped because Nintendo didn't think it'd feel right to not have Disney content (A bit of a firestarter around here), Geno didn't go through because Square didn't want a character who was most associated with Smash, and Sephiroth just conceded to Hero, which is supposedly why he got in later.
Oh yeah, and at one point they mentioned Chun-Li and both Yuri and Lloyd. The former was supposedly "replaced with Ken somehow" and the latter two just didn't turn up. Each of them were mentioned a grand total of one time, but we make it seem like those two sentences were the entire rumor. Can't help but find that kinda funny.
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Cutie Gwen
Lovely warrior
No, Penders claiming that the game's storyline ripped off his stories and all the echidna characters
ahemtoday
Smash Ace
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He tweeted a while ago declaring that Shade and one of his characters were actually the same, from what I recall. I don't remember if he said or just implied that that meant he owned both of them.
Otoad64
Smash Lord
If I remember correctly though he did prevent sega from using shade again
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osby
Smash Obsessed
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And nothing of value was lost.
chocolatejr9
Smash Hero
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I was referring to this:
I’m resolving a certain topic in THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES. I’m definitely establishing that Shade was Julie-Su’s deep cover name while on assignments for Cyberdark Colony prior to meeting K’Nox. And yes, she did wear the armor depicted in the SONIC CHRONICLES game at times.
— Ken Penders (@KenPenders) December 30, 2020
But like... that shouldn't be possible, right? Like, he could get sued for this? I feel like he shoukd get sued for this...
Rie Sonomura
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It’s ORIGINAL THE CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL taken to a whole new level...
D
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That sounds like one hell of a case Sega has against him.
Miles of SmashWiki
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I don't think that this was ever outright confirmed, just semi-implied by context, but my impression was that the reason we haven't gotten any Sonic remixes for Smash other than the Angel Island Zone one from Brawl is that Sega is only willing to let their own music staff do the remixing so that they fully own the resulting track. Note that said Brawl remix was done by Jun Senoue and is listed as being "composition and arrangement copyright Sega". Contrast that with most Smash remixes where the arrangement is listed as "copyright Nintendo" regardless of who owns the original song.
chocolatejr9
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THEY DON'T EVEN LOOK SIMILAR! Literally the only thing they have in common is that they're female Echidnas!
SharkLord
Smash Hero
Quick elaboration on this one:
- It called for ports of CS3 and 4 (confirmed), Ys IX (Also confirmed), and the Crossbell games (Confirmed recently for Asia, which is what got it a surge of attention in the first place)
- It claims there will be Cold Steel Spirits, though they didn't know if it would be a full board or just and event
- Adol and Rean are just their predictions; Nothing definitive (And probably going off that Kondo interview a while back)
- Supposedly comes with 30+ tracks from both Trails and Ys, which is an absolute win
cashregister9
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He took the rights to all of the Archie original Sonic characters. and then used them in his own works as "OC's do not steal" And Shade was caught in the crossfire as Penders said that Shade was too similar to his own characters
And because of that and what he did with the Original Sonic characters (Shipping characters and them having children (including underage ones but don't quote me on that I could be remembering that wrong), creating new family members for them, killing them etc.) SEGA Got a bit annoyed and is now overly cautious with Sonic characters in the comics to avoid another Ken Penders which is honestly understandable
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SMAASH! Puppy
Smash Legend
So it's essentially just harder/more expensive to get Sonic the Hedgehog remixes? Sigh.
Otoad64
Smash Lord
guess not as apparently there was nothing they could do against him
Ken Penders' legal cases
Between January 2009 and October 2013, comic writer Ken Penders filed a number of lawsuits and legal cases against Sega of America and Archie Comics Publishing (ACP) related to the rights of his characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog comic series and its spin-offs. By the time of the case's...
sonic.fandom.com
he technically didn't win but he didn't lose either.
It does, but Sega might've decided that it's not worth the hassle. And really, it's not like Ken has a fan favorite character (or characters) on his hands that he can force Sega's hands with. In order to be into the Lara-Su Chronicles one kinda has to be interested in Sonic-esque stuff to begin with, and it's not like he managed to get much mainstream attention with his own stuff anyway.guess not as apparently there was nothing they could do against him
Ken Penders' legal cases
Between January 2009 and October 2013, comic writer Ken Penders filed a number of lawsuits and legal cases against Sega of America and Archie Comics Publishing (ACP) related to the rights of his characters in the Sonic the Hedgehog comic series and its spin-offs. By the time of the case's...
he technically didn't win but he didn't lose either.
I'm speculating, but I'm guessing that's been Sega's strategy regarding the matter post 2015. Especially since Sega greenlit a reboot of the comic with different characters created for the comic specifically.
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Rie Sonomura
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For the cold steel spirits, way I see it it would be an event after Adol’s release if Adol is picked, and with Rean’s DLC board if Rean is picked
IIRC the Angel Island remix wasn't even specifically made for Smash lmao. It was for a completely separate album.
Dinoman96
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Bobby Schroeder is probably the most knowledgable person on the internet regarding Archie Sonic and Ken Penders so I'd recommend taking a look at her stuff if you're interested.
thankskenpenders.tumblr.com
Thanks, Ken Penders
Bobby takes you along on her journey through Archie's Sonic comics, starting at the very beginning....
thankskenpenders.tumblr.com
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MooMew64
sometimes here, sometimes there
Long story short on the Penders topic (from what I've researched):
Archie messed up and somehow lost contracts that proved they were in the legal right to use Ken's characters. Had those papers been saved and archived properly, the whole mess would've been an open and shut case and Archie would've won. Most of what happened happened not only because Ken Penders is pretty petty and awful, but also because Archie blew it big time.
However, this isn't really on topic of Smash so it would probably be best for me to leave it there: Don't wanna derail discussion, lol.
On the topic of Sonic and Smash, and what Sega and Sakurai should do...
Put in Honey the Cat, you cowards.
Archie messed up and somehow lost contracts that proved they were in the legal right to use Ken's characters. Had those papers been saved and archived properly, the whole mess would've been an open and shut case and Archie would've won. Most of what happened happened not only because Ken Penders is pretty petty and awful, but also because Archie blew it big time.
However, this isn't really on topic of Smash so it would probably be best for me to leave it there: Don't wanna derail discussion, lol.
On the topic of Sonic and Smash, and what Sega and Sakurai should do...
Put in Honey the Cat, you cowards.
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chocolatejr9
Smash Hero
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Actually, Shade wasn't an Archie original character. She was created specifically for Sonic Chronicles. It's just that Ken is convinced she's a ripoff of one of his characters.
Otoad64
Smash Lord
and they didn't even choose the right one to rip!
if they're gonna rip a victory them they should've made it this one imo
chocolatejr9
Smash Hero
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Sorry, I'll take the blame for that. This Penders thing really gets to me, and I'm generally pretty hard to upset...Long story short on the Penders topic (from what I've researched):
Archie messed up and somehow lost contracts that proved they were in the legal right to use Ken's characters. Had those papers been saved and archived properly, the whole mess would've been an open and shut case and Archie would've won. Most of what happened happened not only because Ken Penders is pretty petty and awful, but also because Archie blew it big time.
However, this isn't really on topic of Smash so it would probably be best for me to leave it there: Don't wanna derail discussion, lol.
On the topic of Sonic and Smash, and what Sega and Sakurai should do...
Put in Honey the Cat, you cowards.
Anyway, Sonic reps, um... make Irish the Hedgehog canon. If not that, then just add Big. Big's a cool guy.
Pillow
Smash Lord
Evil Trapezium
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A rip from the worst Sonic game of the decade to add. Yep, it's definitely a R.I.P.
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