Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Schnee117]

I love how we can have the point made, literally yesterday mind you, that Disney content like Donald and Goofy aren't essential to Sora in Smash but people will act as if that didn't happen

 

[Michael the Spikester]

imma do a drinking game and everytime I see someone say "Sora needs Disney stuff" Im going to take a drink. That is such Bull**** because he will do just FINE without disney stuff. Hell, ReMind was all OG stuff and 0 Disney and it worked fine

Again though. Sakurai likes respecting characters in Smash how they are in their original games. That could prove problematic as seen with Heihachi with Tekken's gameplay not implementing well.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I love how we can have the point made, literally yesterday mind you, that Disney content like Donald and Goofy aren't essential to Sora in Smash but people will act as if that didn't happen

There is something about the word Disney. Like the Blood Moon in Terraria, it makes all then "sora cant be in without disney" people sworm like zombies

 

[PeridotGX]

Sora without Disney stuff would be weird, but so would Pokemon without trainers or Final Fantasy without side content, and both of those things have happened (one of which was fixed).

 

[osby]

Again though. Sakurai likes respecting characters in Smash how they are in their original games. That could prove problematic as seen with Heihachi with Tekken's gameplay not implementing well.

I don't think that's a good comparison.

Adapting a fighting game character into another fighting game and keeping their moveset faithful is important. An RPG character not bringing their party members along with them is less of a big deal and already happened with in Smash 4 and in Ultimate.

 

[Megadoomer]

There is something about the word Disney. Like the Blood Moon in Terraria, it makes all then "sora cant be in without disney" people sworm like zombies

He's owned by Disney, though - by definition, Disney has to be involved. Sure, they could include him without referencing Donald, Goofy, or Mickey, but there'd still be the concern that he'd only be included in Smash for a limited time, like the Star Wars characters in Soul Calibur 4 (after the Disney buyout, Darth Vader and Yoda were removed from digital storefronts, so you couldn't get Darth Vader on Xbox 360 or Yoda on PS3), Marvel vs. Capcom re-releases (Marvel vs. Capcom Origins was delisted after two years), or Sora in World of Final Fantasy. (from what I can tell, he was only available in that game for two months - the post was made January 26, 2017, and he was removed March 31, 2017)

 

[Rie Sonomura]

He's owned by Disney, though - by definition, Disney has to be involved. Sure, they could include him without referencing Donald, Goofy, or Mickey, but there'd still be the concern that he'd only be included in Smash for a limited time, like the Star Wars characters in Soul Calibur 4 (after the Disney buyout, Darth Vader and Yoda were removed from digital storefronts, so you couldn't get Darth Vader on Xbox 360 or Yoda on PS3), Marvel vs. Capcom re-releases (Marvel vs. Capcom Origins was delisted after two years), or Sora in World of Final Fantasy.

slight correction - Darth Vader was for the PS3 version of SC4 and Yoda for the 360 version

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

He's owned by Disney, though - by definition, Disney has to be involved. Sure, they could include him without referencing Donald, Goofy, or Mickey, but there'd still be the concern that he'd only be included in Smash for a limited time, like the Star Wars characters in Soul Calibur 4 (after the Disney buyout, Darth Vader and Yoda were removed from digital storefronts, so you couldn't get Darth Vader on Xbox 360 or Yoda on PS3), Marvel vs. Capcom re-releases (Marvel vs. Capcom Origins was delisted after two years), or Sora in World of Final Fantasy.

why in the royal hell would they add Sora to smash for a limited time. That would make no sense

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

why in the hell would they add Sora to smash for a limited time. That would make no sense

I agree with you, but that's what Disney does to their characters in fighting games.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Y’know, the whole thing about Sakurai not being able to make Heihachi to work always weirded me out. Heihachi was able to be translated into 2D just fine in (sigh) Street Fighter X Tekken. I’m very surprised Sakurai of all people couldn’t get Heihachi to work.

 

[Megadoomer]

slight correction - Darth Vader was for the PS3 version of SC4 and Yoda for the 360 version

Yeah, I get that, but they're still in the base game. Before the Disney buy-out, you could buy Vader and Yoda for the versions that they aren't normally in (the ones that don't have them on the box-art) as DLC, but after Disney bought Lucasfilm, the option to download them as DLC was removed. Not sure how well I worded that originally.

why in the royal hell would they add Sora to smash for a limited time. That would make no sense

That's what they did for Sora in World of Final Fantasy, so it's not unheard of.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Yeah, I get that, but they're still in the base game. Before the Disney buy-out, you could buy Vader and Yoda for the versions that they aren't normally in (the ones that don't have them on the box-art) as DLC, but after Disney bought Lucasfilm, the option to download them as DLC was removed. Not sure how well I worded that originally.


That's what they did for Sora in World of Final Fantasy, so it's not unheard of.

ohhh, I see now. but yeah, still unfortunate

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

oh well, until I see concrete proof right from the horses mouth, weather that horse is Disney or Nintendo, that Sora is a no show, Imma still believe he may be possable

 

[Rie Sonomura]

oh well, until I see concrete proof that Sora is a no show, Imma still believe he may be possable

would Sakurai himself making a statement that "I tried to get Sora but couldn't" count as a no show?

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

would Sakurai himself making a statement that "I tried to get Sora but couldn't" count as a no show?

well yeah, it would obviously but Sakurai hasnt said that yet. When he does,then I'll drop my hopes

 

[3BitSaurus]

Sora without Disney stuff would be weird, but so would Pokemon without trainers or Final Fantasy without side content, and both of those things have happened (one of which was fixed).

For another comparison, I also doubt SNK fans would have been mad if Terry had come with only Fatal Fury content.

Like, yeah, it would be less content than we have now, which is objectively worse, but I doubt anyone would have said he or his home franchise were "badly represented" if that had been the case.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

What do you think Disney was like for Nintendo when they asked for Sora?

A. Absolutely! You can have Sora for free! You don't even have to mention our company name! In fact you can have the rights to Sora forever! You can have our characters, our theme parks, our movie licenses, our money, screw it! Take everything! You're the new Disney!
B. Sora costs millions of dollars to be in Smash... just ignore the fact we gave him away to toy manufacturers for way less than that.
C. nyeh heh heh heh! We own you now Nintendo, you will plaster all of the Disney characters into Smash Bros (strokes the long stringy and curly end of it's mustache)
D. Nah I want Mickey Mouse in smash. Sora is lame.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

What do you think Disney was like for Nintendo when they asked for Sora?

A. Absolutely! You can have Sora for free! You don't even have to mention our company name! In fact you can have the rights to Sora forever! You can have our characters, our theme parks, our movie licenses, our money, screw it! Take everything! You're the new Disney!
B. Sora costs millions of dollars to be in Smash... just ignore the fact we gave him away to toy manufacturers for way less than that.
C. nyeh heh heh heh! We own you now Nintendo, you will plaster all of the Disney characters into Smash Bros (strokes the long stringy and curly end of it's mustache)
D. Nah I want Mickey Mouse in smash. Sora is lame.

Imma go with C just because I read it in a Papyrus voice.

 

[M@R!3]

Yeah, I get that, but they're still in the base game. Before the Disney buy-out, you could buy Vader and Yoda for the versions that they aren't normally in (the ones that don't have them on the box-art) as DLC, but after Disney bought Lucasfilm, the option to download them as DLC was removed. Not sure how well I worded that originally.


That's what they did for Sora in World of Final Fantasy, so it's not unheard of.

Currently we have no example of Sora being added permanently into any crossover, but it also shouldn't be ignored that Sora could be acquired for free in every crossover that he's been in so far. That's pretty different from the paid content that Smash offers.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Currently we have no example of Sora being added permanently into any crossover, but it also shouldn't be ignored that Sora could be acquired for free in every crossover that he's been in so far. That's pretty different from the paid content that Smash offers.

Well he was permanently added into two Final Fantasy gacha games I think. Or one. I do know he’s in Brave Exvius

then again it’s a gacha game so not the best example

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As a compromise, Sora will in fact get into Smash as paid DLC, however after two years he will automatically removed from all copies of Ultimate and replaced with Square Enix's low cost ringer, Benjamin from Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

As a compromise, Sora will in fact get into Smash as paid DLC, however after two years he will automatically removed from all copies of Ultimate and replaced with Square Enix's low cost ringer, Benjamin from Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.

Oh God

nobody deserves that

 

[SharkLord]

I don't care if Disney content isn't "necessary," we are getting the Vanitus Yeeter in Smash and that's final

 

[WeirdChillFever]

All I want from Disney is the Moon theme from the DuckTales game.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Yup. They would be shut down and then encouraged to voice their opinions on a thread that was made for “impossible characters.” Opinions have certainly changed. Compare Master Chief’s thread in Smash 4 to his current one.

Mods back then when someone genuinely supported Master Chief:
"Please do not make joke threads."

Mods today when someone asks for Google T-Rex Runner or Morshu for Zelda CD-I:
"This is fine."

...Not that I'm complaining. Speculation shouldn't be taken too seriously anyway.

 

[SharkLord]

Mods back then, when someone genuinely supported Master Chief:
"Please do not make joke threads."

Mods today, when someone asks for Google T-Rex Runner or Morshu for Zelda CD-I:
"This if fine."

...Not that I'm complaining. Speculation shouldn't be taken too seriously anyway.

Nothing will be fine until the mods reopen the Homura thread

 

[Mr. Robotto]

Y’know, the whole thing about Sakurai not being able to make Heihachi to work always weirded me out. Heihachi was able to be translated into 2D just fine in (sigh) Street Fighter X Tekken. I’m very surprised Sakurai of all people couldn’t get Heihachi to work.

That's mostly because Street Fighter X Tekken is a 6-button fighter, like the Street Fighter games. Which is way more than Tekken, which only utilises 4, one for each limb. Street Fighter X Tekken basically took the Tekken characters and translated them into Street Fighter with Street Fighter's gameplay mechanics in mind. The only real notable difference being that most Tekken characters don't really have those stick motion inputs (only directional ones) for their moves, just like in their game of origin.

With Smash Bros being a game that consists many gimmicks that are unique to certain fighters, Heihachi would kinda feel out of place if he was just put in the game with no unique flavour to him. So what gimmicks could he bring over? Well, there's the limb system... but wait, Smash only uses 2 buttons so that won't really work. There are directional inputs for certain moves! But those would just be tilts then.

Tekken and Smash just have way too many fundamental differences for Tekken's mechanics to work in Smash. So honestly Sakurai's best bet might just be to put Heihachi in Smash with a normal moveset with no added gimmicks whatsoever. Which he probably didn't like the idea of.

So at the end of the day: the core problem isn't translating Heihachi to 2D, it's just Sakurai not having enough buttons to work with. I'm hopeful for the future though.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Nothing will be fine until the mods reopen the Homura thread
View attachment 300422

Oh yeah people might be meming Homura up now, but wait until Goku tears that floodgate open as Challenger Pack 11.

"Actually due to the success of Dragon Ball Fighters Z, Goku is an honorary video game character or something".

 

[M@R!3]

Well he was permanently added into two Final Fantasy gacha games I think. Or one. I do know he’s in Brave Exvius

then again it’s a gacha game so not the best example

Pretty sure he can only be acquired while the events are active, but I don't touch gacha stuff so I could be wrong.

Also there seems to be a misunderstanding as to what "limited availability" is. When the license runs out for any digital content it just gets removed from the store. As long as you downloaded the content prior to that it's yours. UMvC3 can still be played on a 360 to this day with all of the DLC if it's on the hard drive. Same with the Marvel Alliance games, and Yoda/Vadar in Soul Calibur IV.

The only example Disney has of anything close to removing content from players games is Disney Infinity, which required an internet connection to authenticate the figures. This is no longer possible because the servers for that game were shut down, and I don't know if figures that were activated before the shut down still work.

 

[PeridotGX]

Y’know, the whole thing about Sakurai not being able to make Heihachi to work always weirded me out. Heihachi was able to be translated into 2D just fine in (sigh) Street Fighter X Tekken. I’m very surprised Sakurai of all people couldn’t get Heihachi to work.

Sakurai goes above and beyond to make fighting game characters accurate to their source game. He could probably get a version of Heihachi working, but there's some big gimmick from Tekken that he can't get working in Smash, so he doesn't add Heihachi.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Well he was permanently added into two Final Fantasy gacha games I think. Or one. I do know he’s in Brave Exvius

then again it’s a gacha game so not the best example

cconsidering you have to spend money to get him, it wouldnt, as I said, make any sense to pull a character you had to pay to get

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

That's mostly because Street Fighter X Tekken is a 6-button fighter, like the Street Fighter games. Which is way more than Tekken, which only utilises 4, one for each limb. Street Fighter X Tekken basically took the Tekken characters and translated them into Street Fighter with Street Fighter's gameplay mechanics in mind. The only real notable difference being that most Tekken characters don't really have those stick motion inputs (only directional ones) for their moves, just like in their game of origin.

With Smash Bros being a game that consists many gimmicks that are unique to certain fighters, Heihachi would kinda feel out of place if he was just put in the game with no unique flavour to him. So what gimmicks could he bring over? Well, there's the limb system... but wait, Smash only uses 2 buttons so that won't really work. There are directional inputs for certain moves! But those would just be tilts then.

Tekken and Smash just have way too many fundamental differences for Tekken's mechanics to work in Smash. So honestly Sakurai's best bet might just be to put Heihachi in Smash with a normal moveset with no added gimmicks whatsoever. Which he probably didn't like the idea of.

So at the end of the day: the core problem isn't translating Heihachi to 2D, it's just Sakurai not having enough buttons to work with. I'm hopeful for the future though.

That makes sense, though it is still disappointing. Perhaps his Neutral Special could have him Swap Limbs so he gets to keep that mechanic and has a true to form gimick.

 

[Speed Weed]

Sometimes I miss base game speculation for Ultimate because it felt like the craziest first parties and retros were in the conversation and it was a great vibe, but if there's one great part about this DLC cycle it's that it's opened people's minds to some truly out-there names that never would have been considered before

I've thought about this subject a lot in the crazy crazy ride that's been Ultimate's DLC, and damn is it a heckin hard situation to give a reasonable answer to

It's something that I'm really mixed on and can't wholesale pick a single side on. The thing is, like, just to be clear, I love the third-party additions we've been getting! Cloud and Terry are my favorite characters in this whole roster! I'm just kinda bummed out that this new direction Ultimate has been taking since DLC began came at the cost of continuing to get any of the really interesting first-parties, and I've kinda come to resent the "bigger and better" mindset a good chunk of this fanbase actively encourages. There's always this insistence, not just with Smash, but with a few other games I've seen, that we should always "evolve into something greater". Which, in all honesty? I disagree. Sometimes it's fine for a game to keep doing what it does and have a defined identity and scope. Smash has more of a focus on third-parties currently and that's a done deal, but for example, with something like Mario Kart, when I see people say that it should "evolve" into Nintendo Kart, I'm like, why do that now when we still have so much to pull from Mario? We don't always have to evolve, we don't always have to go bigger, sometimes we're fine where we are.

Now again, just to be clear, I love third-parties and I do want them to keep on coming. Hell, Sol's in my current top 5 and he definitely finds himself in that camp of "crazy out-there third-party". But there's a part of me who's also kinda sad at the double-whammy of A. the fact that so far the range of craziness in our more recent first-party picks has basically been inversely proportional to the range of craziness in our more recent third-party picks, and B. the "bigger and better" sentiment in this community trampling on the previous scope we were in that still had a lot of potential IMO.

It's something where I really can't easily say how I feel about this. It's a subject that I'm super mixed on and sometimes can't really put into words super well without constant reassurance that I'm also not completely against the other side, otherwise I end up risking making myself look like either extreme of the argument, which in this case I feel like neither of them accurately represent my opinion.

TL;DR: the first-parties get safer and safer and this community's current insistence that we should always go bigger kinda leaves out a lot of the cool picks in the previous scope Smash was in, which I think is all kinda poopoo stinky and has led me to resent other situations where people insist X game should evolve into something bigger when sometimes it's like "I dunno man I kinda like where we're at now".

Basically, in a perfect world, Smash would be going wacky pitacky with both the first and third parties. which is why the 2010 Smash Crusade roster was so good

 

[True Blue Warrior]

This is a pretty decent video that shows how Heihachi could have worked.

Spoiler

Ignore the first few seconds.

 

[JOJONumber691]

The problem with this argument is that it does nothing to explain why Crash and Ryu wouldn't both be added since 1, Crash also fits most of these criteria, and 2, the criteria is for looking at characters in a vacuum so it doesn't have anything to do with the claim in the first place.

EDIT: I should note that I did notice the reasons given for why Crash might not be too likely, but they also don't have anything to do with Ryu, and thus don't support your claim either.


Nintendo also chose all of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's DLC, so if Nintendo doing the picking changes the rules then we're really just looking at Snake, Sonic, Mega Man, PAC-Man, Ryu, Cloud, Simon, Richter, and Ken here.

EDIT EDIT: This sounds like a nitpick, but it does mean that both Crash and Ryu would be Nintendo picks, and thus would be picked under different criteria.


...Why? At first I thought it might be the whole limbless thing, but if that were true then he probably wouldn't have been a trophy or a Spirit.

Because, I simply can't see us getting any other Third Parties besides Hayabusa. I think this Pass is going to be more of a 50/50 Split between First and Third Parties. Which means that the Orange Marsupial, unfortunately, was held back. If Hayabusa is somehow Deconfirmed, or we get a Third Party that isn't him in March. Also, Sakurai had some input with all of Ultimate's DLC, as he was able to Deny any character he wanted to. Considering how I can't see two more Third Parties Happening, at most it's one. Not only that, but back in Last February, Sakurai said that plans had to be cancelled with a Big Third Party Name due to Covid. A Part of me has a Gut Feeling the Cancellation may have been Crash. Not only that, but being Western is far more of a Disadavntage than people consider it. Notice how we only just got a Western Third Party in Smash back in 2019 with Banjo. And Banjo had two literal DECADES of Fan Requests, Direct Company Support, another character also from his Parent Company taking too long, and a Moveset distinct enough to warrant being DLC. And, as I have mentioned before, Steve is from ****ing MINECRAFT! The Biggest Game of all time. Worldwide Fame, Started Indie, with it also being the only reason why Nintendo and Microsoft are as Buddy Buddy as they are now. I think with how long Steve took, and how Banjo only got in because of Steve, it essentially confirms being Western is a HUGE Drawback for your chances in Smash if you need literally everything else to go in your favor in order for you to even get Considered for a Playable Slot in the First Place. And unless Crash was the one character in which Sakurai could never Veto, even if it directly hindered Development, which I doubt because of how long Steve took, And again, does Crash fit the "Great Nintendo Relations", or "Unique Enough to Warrant DLC" Categories that even Banjo fell into, or is it just because of one Trilogy coming to Switch that makes you think Crash is inevitable? You're just setting yourself up for Disappointment if you're expecting Crash to get in. Especially since he's held back by so much. Unfortunate, but I simply don't see Volume 2 being Crash's Day. Again, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and will be very grateful if he gets in, but considering everything else going against him, especially how long Steve took, I simply think he got popular at the wrong time. Maybe next time, buddy, maybe next time.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

A lot of the growing resignation at there only really being a few realistic choices for first parties to some degree feels like people wanting to shield themselves from more disappointment. After the fallout of Ultimate's last base game reveals, various franchises being spirited, and the choice in first parties we have gotten in the DLC, I can't blame anyone who just shrugs and says they're expecting Pokémon and maybe Rex/Pyra if they're lucky. There's an almost collective sense of the writing on the wall, and after getting the likes of Steve or Sephiroth there's probably a lot of people who have convinced themselves that their more underdog Nintendo picks just aren't coming.

Yeah they can still do discussions of movesets and hypotheticals about what their favorite might be, but in comparison to two years ago, a lot of the enthusiasm just isn't the same.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

A lot of the growing resignation at there only really being a few realistic choices for first parties to some degree feels like people wanting to shield themselves from more disappointment. After the fallout of Ultimate's last base game reveals, various franchises being spirited, and the choice in first parties we have gotten in the DLC, I can't blame anyone who just shrugs and says they're expecting Pokémon and maybe Rex/Pyra if they're lucky. There's an almost collective sense of the writing on the wall, and after getting the likes of Steve or Sephiroth there's probably a lot of people who have convinced themselves that their more underdog Nintendo picks just aren't coming.

Yeah they can still do discussions of movesets and hypotheticals about what their favorite might be, but in comparison to two years ago, a lot of the enthusiasm just isn't the same.

I mean, it does seem that the general trend so far across both games with DLC content is that Smash DLC has gotten used for 3 things: veterans (now moot since there are none left to add), 1st party characters from recent games, or 3rd parties. I think there is a sense of realism with which you have to approach some of these things. You certainly wouldn't hear any complaining from me personally if they decided to offer a revival of an older Nintendo character as DLC, but the history doesn't imply that it's likely.

And that's coming from someone who would be equally pleased by seeing Lip or Ayumi Tachibana compared to much more famous and prominent 3rd parties. I'm just of the opinion that picks like those are really "base game or not at all".

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean, it does seem that the general trend so far across both games with DLC content is that Smash DLC has gotten used for 3 things: veterans (now moot since there are none left to add), 1st party characters from recent games, or 3rd parties. I think there is a sense of realism with which you have to approach some of these things. You certainly wouldn't hear any complaining from me personally if they decided to offer a revival of an older Nintendo character as DLC, but the history doesn't imply that it's likely.

And that's coming from someone who would be equally pleased by seeing Lip or Ayumi Tachibana compared to much more famous and prominent 3rd parties. I'm just of the opinion that picks like those are really "base game or not at all".

Agreed. Hence why any real change in first party speculation won't really happen until we get an unexpected one via the Fighter's Pass or the next Smash game.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I think Lip still has a shot due to uniqueness and NSO, but I think our most likely First Parties at the moment are Pokemon, Euden, and someone from 2021.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think Lip still has a shot due to uniqueness and NSO, but I think our most likely First Parties at the moment are Pokemon, Euden, and someone from 2021.

I doubt we are getting a Pokemon.