Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Þe 1 → Way]

fun fact
since Brawler's counter is also a command grab
it's the only counter that completely, truly works against Wonderwing, and it does quite decent damage to Banjo at that
RT to save a life

You king. I’ve just made a Mii Brawler specifically for Banjo, thank you.

 

[Dinoman96]

Crono is sort of like Banjo in that they have a legacy of affinity and are well-regarded, well-liked characters people would be happy to see, and wouldn't strongly protest the presence of. But they're unalike in that Crono isn't extremely popular in the way Banjo was, which is within the fanbase. Things are going to have to shift drastically in his favour to end up in the position Banjo was in. Otherwise he's just going to remain a darling within certain circles but a character not really at the forefront of anything anymore.

And to be fair, Banjo would've been included a long time ago had Rare and Nintendo not parted ways. What really drove Banjo's popularity is the history he had with Nintendo, and as one of their characters. Crono has a history with Nintendo, but a much more standard one for a third-party.

To that end, I do question whether Nintendo history is really a pertinent factor. Think about it. Nintendo history can inform demand, and demand affects inclusion. So it indirectly can matter. But look at the inclusions with the very strong Nintendo history. Mega Man, Simon, Banjo... these are the characters explicitly included due to the demand. I guess you could make an argument for Bayo, but until Nintendo adopts Crono, it's not really applicable.

And just having some key titles on a Nintendo system at some point is a pretty weak litmus test for history, considering most if not all of those examples, like FF, SF, DQ, etc. can also apply to Sony.

Banjo also had the public support of Phil Spencer behind him.

AFAIK Yosuke Matsuda or whoever's leading SE these days have never publicly stated that they'd like to see Geno or Crono in Smash. So they're screwed, pretty much

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Never mind Banjo was still being used by Microsoft at the time. That also helped a lot. It's pretty obvious it's the case when Sakurai is literally advertising "go play them on Microsoft".

Banjo was in a great position here. Being a product in use, Spencer given his blessing, massively popularity(which includes the ballot, but just in general), and Nintendo connections? And the best part is one reason beyond that was Minecraft helped lead to that. The bear and bird were in an excellent position. Rarely does anyone have everything going for them.

Literally the only good argument was "Would Nintendo actually license from a straight competitor" at that point. And the answer is "yes, yes they would." It certainly wasn't "they wouldn't choose a dead series" because clearly the product being in used was enough to matter overall. As I noted above, we literally saw the fact it being in used was part of the situation. That, and he was given new merchandise beyond the amiibo to likely coincide with Smash. Note I am not saying relevancy, but simply "in use". Those are blatantly not the same thing.

 

[N3ON]

Banjo also had the public support of Phil Spencer behind him.

AFAIK Yosuke Matsuda or whoever's leading SE these days have never publicly stated that they'd like to see Geno or Crono in Smash. So they're screwed, pretty much

Well the public support of Phil Spencer is what reignited the popularity in the first place.

But again, is Banjo in a unique situation, being owned by a rival company. As it is right now, I don't think people think Crono can't happen, so much as he just probably won't, so were he to receive a supportive statement from one of the devs, I don't think that'd change much. Just like it didn't for Rayman or Gordon Freeman or Tracer or Scorpion or whoever.

But on the other hand, imagine if Jim Ryan said he'd love to get Kratos into Smash. That'd shift the perspective.

Also, fwiw, even if someone at SE voiced desire to see a specific character like Crono or Geno in Smash... that doesn't really mean that much. There must be over a dozen devs at this point who have said similar things. Nintendo is still the one who picks.

Never mind Banjo was still being used by Microsoft at the time. That also helped a lot. It's pretty obvious it's the case when Sakurai is literally advertising "go play them on Microsoft".

Banjo was in a great position here. Being a product in use, Spencer given his blessing, massively popularity(which includes the ballot, but just in general), and Nintendo connections? And the best part is one reason beyond that was Minecraft helped lead to that. The bear and bird were in an excellent position. Rarely does anyone have everything going for them.

Literally the only good argument was "Would Nintendo actually license from a straight competitor" at that point. And the answer is "yes, yes they would." It certainly wasn't "they wouldn't choose a dead series" because clearly the product being in used was enough to matter overall. As I noted above, we literally saw the fact it being in used was part of the situation. That, and he was given new merchandise beyond the amiibo to likely coincidence with Smash. Note I am not saying relevancy, but simply "in use". Those are blatantly not the same thing.

I mean if an old title being provided on a current platform counts as being in use, Nintendo is still using F-Zero.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

My gut is currently saying we'll get one more Nintendo character, a 3rd party from another series in the base game and then one last brand new 3rd party series.

But I'm the kind of guy who tries to make a moveset for Poochie for the sake of series balance in my fan-rosters so maybe I'm not the best to ask.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean if an old title being provided on a current platform counts as being in use, Nintendo is still using F-Zero.

That is correct, yes. The product is in use.

Not that it changed Banjo was issued new product either way.

People really need to stop pretending Microsoft weren't using the franchise. They still are.

In use =/= Relevancy anyway. Cause boy, were they irrelevant as is. But every single franchise 3rd party-wise was actually in use in some way before being added to Smash, so that's a normal thing. A company is much more likely to actually cooperate with a product in use than one that is entirely unused. It's basic business sense. Get more viewers/people buying the product available. It's not even that odd. And some weren't games either, nor was it a case of the exact character(as Castlevania had the Netflix series going on... and Pinball Machines). It doesn't mean an unused product isn't possible to get into Smash, it just hasn't happened yet for 3rd parties, that's all.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Banjo-Kazooie will always stand out as a case of the stars aligning for a character that hasn't been very active in the last 10 years. Strongly associated with Nintendo in their most famous games, belonging to a company that was willing to play ball, beloved by the Smash community, and likely getting a lot of progress because of negotiations for another character were occurring at the same time. They're basically the counterbalance to all the various fighters we haven't gotten via timing, copyrights, and other factors which meant they never got their chance.

 

[Otoad64]

...So? It's not supposed to be.

Paper Mario is not "SMRPG 2" beyond what happened with the first one. It's a subset of Mario that is an rpg series and does its own thing. That's why it can experiment. Every game outside of literally TTYD is different. Mario & Luigi also heavily experimented.

SMRPG is not the point behind the rpg games Mario still has. That's one game. It's not being continued at this point. Small bits were reused to help make the other rpg's, but they were always their own thing.

yeah, but you said paper mario had not been like SMRPG since super, which is false

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

yeah, but you said paper mario had not been like SMRPG since super, which is false

I clearly said that poorly. I meant it wasn't a traditional rpg with leveling up via experience after Super.

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

[N3ON]

That is correct, yes. The product is in use.

Not that it changed Banjo was issued new product either way.

People really need to stop pretending Microsoft weren't using the franchise. They still are.

In use =/= Relevancy anyway. Cause boy, were they irrelevant as is. But every single franchise 3rd party-wise was actually in use in some way before being added to Smash, so that's a normal thing. A company is much more likely to actually cooperate with a product in use than one that is entirely unused. It's basic business sense. Get more viewers/people buying the product available. It's not even that odd. And some weren't games either, nor was it a case of the exact character(as Castlevania had the Netflix series going on... and Pinball Machines). It doesn't mean an unused product isn't possible to get into Smash, it just hasn't happened yet for 3rd parties, that's all.

Well but then being "in use" is so common as to lack any real significance.

Past the original title, Chrono Trigger has been available on the PS1, Wii, DS, PS3, PSP, Vita, Steam and mobile. That means there's only been one gen since it existed that it hasn't been "in use".

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well but then being "in use" is so common as to lack any real significance.

Past the original title, Chrono Trigger has been available on the PS1, Wii, DS, PS3, PSP, Vita, Steam and mobile. That means there's only been one gen since it existed that it hasn't been "in use".

That's what "in use" means. It means the product specifically is being used. It's not actually insignificant. It means it can be outright advertised for play. Which is what Sakurai did. So it still was something treated as value to Microsoft enough to have him mention "go to our system to enjoy this product".

It's just, again, business sense. Microsoft gets more money if Sakurai advertises it. It's just more incentive to say yes. Was this an actual reason why they said yes? Maybe. It's not necessarily a coincidence every franchise had active product when the character was added, but that doesn't mean every case was not a coincidence. Some can be. It's hard to call this an actual coincidence when it was a straight out advertisement. Whatever negotiations they actually did to have Sakurai say that is obviously unknown, but it did have some kind of relevance to the overall negotiations. It's not like Sakurai can just say "play this game" without permission either on an official stream. He can do that on his own merits, sure, but what he says under specific things has some rules. He could only advertise the product because it was talked about. I won't call it common sense, of course. Not everybody is aware of how important these kind of things are, but it's pretty blatant it's the reason he's advertising it when you understand businesses clearly. It was "only cause Microsoft and Nintendo wanted it, or possibly just a case of allowed it alone."

Hopefully that clears up what I mean by why this one matters to a small degree compared to other situations where "being in use" didn't actually show up as a thing in Smash. Cause I agree it's not always relevant to the situation.

 

[Will]

You king. I’ve just made a Mii Brawler specifically for Banjo, thank you.

You lost to Banjo so much you mained Mii Brawler just to counter Banjo specifically instead of learning to avoid getting baited by Wonderwing?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

You lost to Banjo so much you mained Mii Brawler just to counter Banjo specifically instead of learning to avoid getting baited by Wonderwing?

I pocket Mii Brawler already, making a side moveset to counter his dummy Wing makes sense to me.

 

[Idon]

I pocket Mii Brawler already, making a side moveset to counter his dummy Wing makes sense to me.

You could just block and punish if you had the reactions to counter it.

Flip Jump is honestly one of the best down Bs in the game and Mii Brawler stealing it is way better for him overall than this single niche interaction.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

You could just block and punish if you had the reactions to counter it.

Flip Jump is honestly one of the best down Bs in the game and Mii Brawler stealing it is way better for him overall than this single niche interaction.

Not offstage, while I do agree Flip Jump is way better, Its become pretty predictable to most people it seems. Blindsiding Banjos with a normally terrible move works great. Especially considering the big role Wonderwing plays in recovering horizontally.

 

[Perkilator]

Maaaan, I want it to be February just so some more interesting things can happen. Because right now, it is just dry, even considering we got Sephiroth not too long ago.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Maaaan, I want it to be February just so some more interesting things can happen. Because right now, it is just dry, even considering we got Sephiroth not too long ago.

Its why I'm hoping we do start getting week to week news from Nintendo (including Partner Showcases). Yeah, 99% of it won't realistically apply to Smash chances but it would liven discussion up if nothing else.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Anyways Euden is next lol.

 

[SKX31]

Not offstage, while I do agree Flip Jump is way better, Its become pretty predictable to most people it seems. Blindsiding Banjos with a normally terrible move works great. Especially considering the big role Wonderwing plays in recovering horizontally.

I'm assuming you're playing against a B-K player regularily, and (s)he uses Wonderwing rather often? Anyway, it's worth keeping in mind that Wonderwing always travels a fixed distance (roughly half the length of Final Destination IIRC) before the move ends (unless interrupted by a command grab, like Brawler's Counter or Ridley's Side B). And the move starts with Banjo pulling back for a little bit. The move also has reduced shieldstun, so keep that in mind.

Its why I'm hoping we do start getting week to week news from Nintendo (including Partner Showcases). Yeah, 99% of it won't realistically apply to Smash chances but it would liven discussion up if nothing else.

Honestly, I'd take that. I kinda miss the Partner Showcases - sure, a lot of the games are things most people aren't going to be interested in, but hey, I appriciated them for showcasing games that you'd not expect to land on the Switch like World of Tanks (just to pull the example that came first to mind).

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Hear me out

the character that’ll represent the relationship between Nintendo and SE should be Neku

a Crono Mii comes with him. Hey, Seven Squares was for any kind of appearance right?

I just want my son ok

Youll get him when I get layton

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'm assuming you're playing against a B-K player regularily, and (s)he uses Wonderwing rather often? Anyway, it's worth keeping in mind that Wonderwing always travels a fixed distance (roughly half the length of Final Destination IIRC) before the move ends (unless interrupted by a command grab, like Brawler's Counter or Ridley's Side B). And the move starts with Banjo pulling back for a little bit. The move also has reduced shieldstun, so keep that in mind.



Honestly, I'd take that. I kinda miss the Partner Showcases - sure, a lot of the games are things most people aren't going to be interested in, but hey, I appriciated them for showcasing games that you'd not expect to land on the Switch like World of Tanks (just to pull the example that came first to mind).

The Partner Showcases can work fine of there's at least some interesting content and the timing works out. The first two got so much backlash because Nintendo was right in the midst of their news drought (with even the Mario 35 Anniversary Direct having not yet happened) that getting updates about the likes of WWE 2K Battlegrounds instead of meaningful reveals infuriated a lot of fans. Keeping the most interesting news in the Japan versions didn't really help. Even the big news about SMT V couldn't fully mitigate a sense that the company was needlessly leaving the audience in the dark about the rest of the year.

Note that the the second one with news on Puyo Puyo Tetris 2 got somewhat less public antipathy while the third and fourth (after we had gotten some first party Nintendo news) received virtually none. The format's fine, it was just introduced at the absolute wrong time and in a fairly unimpressive fashion.

 

[Lionfranky]

I kind of question the extent that Crash really stood "toe to toe" with Mario, since his reign was fairly short (like, three years of Crash 1-3 and then CTR) and the rivalry has always appeared very one-sided. Mario and Sonic were constantly going at it, and Crash feels like the character who really tried his best to get involved but never really stood up to the big boys. There are obviously those magazine ads and commercials that hype up Crash as the new kid on the block (and he's coming for you!) but just about every new platforming series got that.

I wasn't there so I can't say for absolutely certain, but it feels like his significance as the "mascot" of the PS1 who competed with Mario is slightly overstated when if he ever reached that level it was so short-lived that I feel like it makes Crash look more like a fad than anything. While Sonic, even after Sega dropped out of the console race and Sonic hit a few road bumps, continued to stick around about as strong as he ever has been.

To me he's always been like, the most successful of the fallen attempts at replicating Sonic's success. He stuck around for a while (with fairly mediocre games post PS1), he saw very significant success out the gate, but... he just never had the longevity and impact that the other two did. I'm not saying this makes him any less of a viable choice for Smash - I just don't see him as quite the necessary character that some other people do when we have fellow PS1 icon Cloud who I feel embodies that Sony presence in Smash just about as well as Crash would. As Pillow said I think Master Chief holds a lot more weight in that regard, because he's inarguably the face of Xbox and has been nonstop since his debut.

But I mean, I think Crash would be a fine addition and his resurgence shows me that he's here to stay once again. He's got the merit and clout for it. I just think people have a tendency to really oversell his significance.

On the other hand, I see people underselling Halo a lot. Nothing from Crash came close to hype train that was Halo 3. Even Japan got caught in hype train back in day. Not to mention, Halo has defined its genre far more than Crash ever has. No offense to Crash.

While Halo may not seem as big as before, it's still massive.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Some characters are bound to be talked about more than others and Crash Bandicoot just happens to be one of them and whether you like him or not, You gotta admit Crash has as a lot going for him now and makes a ton of sense for a game like Super Smash Bros.

You mean like how Shadow had a lot going for him bring an Echo despite the fan demand?

Seems folks hadn't learned from that apparently.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Crash is significant in that he was the essentially the last direct rival to Mario; drawing major comparisons in their games and targeting him in ads. But once platformers lost their strong emphasis with the sixth generation of consoles, you didn't really see any franchise as consistently compared to Mario or really seen as competing with him the in same way a Sonic did in the 90s. Especially with the growth of various types of fans in gaming, many of the major IP's in the business were often going after entirely different demographics than Mario was.

Master Chief is incredibly famous and he is the face of Microsoft essentially, but he lacks that same kind of competitive juxtaposition that Crash has, in spite of selling bigger numbers.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Coming from someone who once thought Crash was a lock. You guys are just setting yourselves up for disappointment.

 

[SharkLord]

On the other hand, I see people underselling Halo a lot. Nothing from Crash came close to hype train that was Halo 3. Even Japan got caught in hype train back in day. Not to mention, Halo has defined its genre far more than Crash ever has. No offense to Crash.

While Halo may not seem as big as before, it's still massive.

I think the problem with Master Chief in speculation is... Y'know...

 

[Otoad64]

I think Crash is at least the most likely of the front runners, partially because it kinda just makes sense. would I be suprised if he's not in? No, that's just par for the course

 

[Icedragonadam]

I think the problem with Master Chief in speculation is... Y'know...

Unless of course Volume 3 happens by muracle.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Crono’s ALSO on the Seven Squares list and has yet to appear in any form (not counting Sora if the “Disney said no” rumors are anything to go by meaning Sora gets jack squat)

I for some reason ain’t feelin a random CT spirit event

I'd take a Mii Swordsman and a song.

Also one for Frog. And another song.

I think fans Chrono fans over estimate how iconic that series is, simply because it is well liked.

I think SquareEnix constantly UNDERestimates how iconic Chrono Trigger is.

Well, I was thinking Mario RPG. But after looking it up just now I guess super mario RPG was the only one game that was never a series, unless you include Mario&Luigi or Paper Mario.

Considering Paper Mario literally started out as Super Mario RPG 2, I'd include the Paper Mario games. At least the first two.

Anyways Euden is next lol.

The 'busa.

Not to mention, Halo has defined its genre far more than Crash ever has. No offense to Crash.

Don't apologize. His games are trash.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Don't apologize. His games are trash

Oh COME on even I don't think that!

 

[SNEKeater]

Coming from someone who once thought Crash was a lock. You guys are just setting yourselves up for disappointment.

People thinking a character has a good shot is not the same as setting themselves for a disappointment. A proper example of that would be what happened with CP5 when some people on social media started believing Dante was coming without real evidence.

I'm not seeing anyone saying Crash is guaranteed, just that they believe he has a good chance to make it.

 

[Lamperouge]

Don't apologize. His games are trash.

No, his games are crash.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Unless of course Volume 3 happens by muracle.

Which is likely it won't.

 

[Lamperouge]

Which is likely it won't.

Which is why he said it'd be a miracle.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I think SquareEnix constantly UNDERestimates how iconic Chrono Trigger is.

****ing this times a thousand. If there's one other Squeenix game that I wanna see get the FFVII Remake treatment, it's Chrono Trigger. I know I'm not the only one who wants to see that. People would eat that **** up.

 

[Cosmic77]

I've always felt like Crash is one of those characters who's deemed as likely simply because of his image in the video game community.

Yeah, he's very recognizable; don't think anyone would deny that. I'm just not sure if there's much else that indicates he's likely, which is why I think labeling him as one of the most likely characters might be a bit much.

 

[SNEKeater]

Crash games are good by the way. Mostly the classic ones and 4. Anyone who says they're bad is a Mario fan who just can't handle hard games that actually require skill

 

[Louie G.]

On the other hand, I see people underselling Halo a lot. Nothing from Crash came close to hype train that was Halo 3. Even Japan got caught in hype train back in day. Not to mention, Halo has defined its genre far more than Crash ever has. No offense to Crash.

While Halo may not seem as big as before, it's still massive.

Man, would be cool if Microsoft could double dip to finish the fight when we've all got our guard down.

I've really come around on Master Chief. The door is wide open and he's really just about the furthest we could feasibly go. Why not go for it?

Master Chief is incredibly famous and he is the face of Microsoft essentially, but he lacks that same kind of competitive juxtaposition that Crash has, in spite of selling bigger numbers.

I feel this, although on the other hand I think just the prospect of "MASTER CHIEF IN A NINTENDO GAME" is enough to rile people up and make headlines in a similar fashion. It may not be "Master Chief vs Mario" in the same way Crash is "Mario vs Sonic vs Crash" but it carries a massive weight all its own simply by the juxtaposition of Master Chief on a roster alongside these characters in the first place.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I've always felt like Crash is one of those characters who's deemed as likely simply because of his image in the video game community.

Yeah, he's very recognizable; don't think anyone would deny that. I'm just not sure if there's much else that indicates he's likely, which is why I think labeling him as one of the most likely characters might be a bit much.

Having an image like Crash's is a pretty big deal though. Being a direct rival to Mario back in the day is huge. Sure he's not going to the Olympics with him or anything, but he did play a vital role during the N64 era in getting platforming fans to buy a PS1. On top of that, it's just kind of a "perfect storm" with him getting all these new titles lately and way more action on the Switch than he's ever had on any other Nintendo console. Obviously there is still reason to doubt, given that there's only three slots left on Fighters Pass 2 and dozens of candidates, but Crash's legacy really stands out when compared to the rest of the competition. Mostly because of his status as a console mascot.

 

[DarthEnderX]

*ing this times a thousand. If there's one other Squeenix game that I wanna see get the FFVII Remake treatment, it's Chrono Trigger. I know I'm not the only one who wants to see that. People would eat that * up.

Chrono Trigger Remake with Dragon Ball FghterZ graphics = transcendence.

Crash games are good by the way. Mostly the classic ones and 4. Anyone who says they're bad is a Mario fan who just can't handle hard games that actually require skill

They'e bad. And I've beaten Ninja Gaiden, Ghosts 'N Goblins and Battletoads(for the record, only 2 of those are good).

Anyone who says they're good is someone who never played any other platformer before the Crash games.

The Crash games were some Bubsy-level dog****. And without Sony's marketing campaign brainwashing a generation of idiot kids into thinking he was Mario's rival, he'd be remembered about as fondly as Bubsy.