Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Guynamednelson]

I just said that that sentiment might exist, and Nintendo might be wary of its existence and try to avoid it by going for one of its many many other good options.

Still won't be as bad as Byleth's backdraft. Only in a few people's fantasies.

 

[SharkLord]

The main reason I feel like assists won't become playable, is that from a marketing perspective, people like new and exciting things. So if they're going to expend the effort to make a full new character, it's not going to be simply re-using assets from an assist and upgrading it, which might make some people feel cheated for paying full price of a character.

I feel like bringing in a full pack with a new stage, more tracks, and a Spirit Board would be new and exciting enough for the majority of the Smash playerbase. Nintendo clearly didn't care that they were adding the eighth sword-wielding Fire Emblem swordfighter despite the increasing backlash, especially after Corrin, and I doubt they'll care about promoting an Assist Trophy.

 

[Pillow]

I'm still wishing they did costume DLC for the main characters than just the Mii Fighters.

I'm still upset Terry didn't come with his Garou outfit. I'd throw all my money at Nintendo if they made more character skins.

Still won't be as bad as Byleth's backdraft. Only in a few people's fantasies.

Maybe. Nobody can say for certain how people will react.

 

[ForsakenM]

The whole problem with them making a playable character out of a paid DLC costume is that, well, it would be kind of a **** move to do that.

Sakurai/Nintendo: "Hey, here's a Geno Mii costume. If you want to have some way of playing as Geno or atleast something that looks like him, give us your money!"

Customer: "Whelp, I guess I just go ahead and buy the Geno costume then..."

Sakurai/Nintendo: "SIKE! We are going to make geno playable now, give us your money for Geno again!"

Customer: "Wait, WTF!? If they were going to make Geno playable in the end I wouldn't even have bought the Geno Mii costume in the first place!"

Implying that companies who like to make money have ever truly cared about morals. Even the best companies fall to greed at some point.

Just look at our most recent example, CD Project Red.

It's not scummy as nobody would mind spending 75 cents on a costume before getting the character, the issue is that we know for a fact these are meant to be consolation prizes meaning it makes no sense to give a consolation prize alongside the big prize.

Ahh, yes, just like Spirits were meant as a consolation prize...oh wait, hello there Min Min!

I remember when trophies were only consolation prizes too...oh, hello there Mewtwo and Lucas!

It's almost like content that the community at large labels as 'just a consolation prize, lol just give up' is completely subject to change with future decisions and we shouldn't jump to conclusions to label them as such.

 

[cothero]

Smash fans tend to get more volatile and emotionally involved than fans of other fighting game franchises, I feel. At the very least, the game's huge and vocal playerbase makes it seem that way sometimes. (The fact that Chrom still exists as part of Robin's final smash despite being a playable character triggers me to no end, you have no idea.)

For the record, I never implied it would be a problem. I just said that that sentiment might exist, and Nintendo might be wary of its existence and try to avoid it by going for one of its many many other good options.

You just raised a point there. If they're lazy enough to keep Chrom as Robin's FS, they would probably keep an existing character as assist trophy if the assist theoretically got promoted to be playable. Imagine be playing as Shadow to then summon Shadow AT from the assist trophy case. WEIRD. I don't think that they would replace the promoted AT with some other character (or even remove the promoted character from the AT list). That's one of the reasons i think AT promotion to DLC will never happen. Next title, maybe.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Nobody can say for certain how people will react.

You're right. I just don't expect the backdraft from an AT promotion to be THAT bad unless all three remaining FP2 slots are taken up by Lyn, Tiki, and the Black Knight.

You just raised a point there. If they're lazy enough to keep Chrom as Robin's FS, they would probably keep an existing character as assist trophy if the assist theoretically got promoted to be playable. Imagine be playing as Shadow to then summon Shadow AT from the assist trophy case. WEIRD. I don't think that they would replace the promoted AT with some other character (or even remove the promoted character from the AT list). That's one of the reasons i think AT promotion to DLC will never happen. Next title, maybe.

Daily reminder that a few red pixels in the background of Green Hill Zone take priority over the Knuckles AT that actually affects gameplay.

 

[Golden Icarus]

I feel like Waluigi “breaking free” from his assist trophy is a big part of the appeal to see him playable. If anything, it would just get fans more excited because they didn’t expect it.

 

[7NATOR]

Y'know it's funny. I'm one of those who fully believes that assist trophies can't be upgraded to playable characters. I'm also somewhat of a general hater of the Sonic franchise in general. But I feel like in the hypothetical scenario that we do get an echo pass, then Shadow will make the cut.

The main reason I feel like assists won't become playable, is that from a marketing perspective, people like new and exciting things. So if they're going to expend the effort to make a full new character, it's not going to be simply re-using assets from an assist and upgrading it, which might make some people feel cheated for paying full price of a character.

An echo DLC would probably be priced cheaper than a full character. Shadow also kind of hits that sweet spot of being hugely popular while also being a relatively easy concept to work onto an echo, just paint sonic black, give him some new run animation and possibly replace his down B with something like Bayonetta's.

You know, I Disagree with everything you said here, But I do like Good arguments and you did give some reasoning to why you don't think Assists will be playable that's not just based on precedent, which has been one of the things that's been consistently broken in this Fighter Pass

I could see the logic here. There are other potential candidates that don't have Full 3D Assets in the game already, that won't have people shouting that they are being scammed out of their money, since some people do believe that promoting an Assist doesn't take much time, and that Nintendo is just holding back these characters just because.

At the same time though, There's still alot of people that want to see Characters like Waluigi, Shadow, Isaac, Skull Kid, Shovel Knight, etc, much more than people would be mad. Like I'm sure Nintendo knew that Byleth wouldn't go over well, and yet they thought the Positives outweighed the negatives and went with it anyway. It's probably the same situation here, and here's why

-While Promoted Assists still need to have the time it takes to make a full character, because they already do have 3D Assets to re-use in the game already, it makes the process easier than characters with no 3D Asset in the game. We have been seeing that Assist Assets can be re-used for playable elements, as Bomberman's costume is his Assist model over the Mii Brawler Skeleton.

-Alot of the Popular Assists have their own merit for joining, that should be considered. Characters like Waluigi, Shadow, Isaac, Skull Kid, Shovel Knight, & Knuckles are either Iconic, Popular, Requested, or a combination of the 3.

-I guess for the speculation community, there would be no more vitriol about the Assist rule,


Now more onto Shadow, Shadow is not just Black Sonic. People defend characters like all the Fire Emblem characters or the Dragon Quest Heroes because to some people they look like characters already in abundance in the game already, but that they shouldn't be judged based off their Initial Apperance. This is all true

Yet Shadow kind of gets overlooked because of his Similarities in look to Sonic, despite the fact that he has alot of Design elements that are different from Sonic...and we're also talking about Shadow here, who's a hugely recognizable character anyway. It's like dismissing Luigi since he's just Green Mario, it's not that simple

Now granted, I'll admit that there is more in favor of Shadow being too similar to Sonic than the whole "Anime Sword Fighter thing" because Shadow has played like Sonic in some Sonic games. However this Same thing isn't nearly put on Tails and Knuckles, who have also played like Sonic in some Sonic games too. It's kind of Hypocritical I would say

Shadow as an echo still could theoretically work, but I Heavily doubt that Shadow would just be an echo, and he's much more likely to be his own character, for these reasons

-Sega has to approve of a Shadow echo. While Shadow has played like Sonic in some games, that doesn't mean the conversion will work to Smash. Sonic is a different type of game from Smash. Even in the games where Shadow plays like Sonic, either in Cutscenes or Boss Fights, He heavily shows off his Chaos powers, and he's the only character currently that shows off Chaos abilities these days. there's also the fact that Shadow's Personality does not jive with the type of moves Sonic does, so I doubt they want him to be an echo

-Shadow has enough Merit to be his own character. He's an Iconic, Popular character both within his series and in Smash requests, and he's still heavily relevant to his Franchise as well, With Sonic being relevant to gaming despite all the hiccups in the series. He's also has shown off abilities that would separate him not just from Sonic, but also from the rest of the cast

I stress the merit thing because people have in the past said that Shadow would only be an echo because Dark Samus was one, despite how Dark Samus does not have as much merit to join Smash on her own compared to Shadow

-Even with minimal changes, Shadow would probably have to be balanced around the rest of the cast because of how Sonic's Moveset is. Sonic's Moveset is heavily votatile and even Small changes can drastically change the balance of the character. giving a character like Sonic a counter that slows down time would Heavily change how you fight against Shadow as an echo.

-Plus, with how people say Sonic's Moveset is underwhelming, boring, or annoying to fight, I really doubt people would Really want Shadow as an echo fighter of Sonic, because I don't think people want a copy of a moveset that has been as critized as Sonic's

Now whether you believe Shadow has a chance or not is up to you. I know most people here really don't think Shadow has a shot. I actually believe I'm the only one here that's actively predicting him in Fighter Pass 2, and I think that's also shared on other websites like Gamefaqs and Discord. I only know like one other person that believes Shadow will be in Fighter Pass 2.

I'm just giving my side of everything

 

[Pillow]

You're right. I just don't expect the backdraft from an AT promotion to be THAT bad unless all three remaining FP2 slots are taken up by Lyn, Tiki, and the Black Knight.

Daily reminder that a few red pixels in the background of Green Hill Zone take priority over the Knuckles AT that actually affects gameplay.

Tbh, even if just one of the slots was an FE character there would be a massive outcry. Which is a shame, because any of those 3 have potentially pretty awesome movesets. But there's just so many damn FE characters. We have an echo, of a clone, who's the 3rd character from Awakening like jeez.

If there ever is any upgraded assists, it's almost certain to be Isaac, Waluigi, Alucard, or a Sonic character.

Now more onto Shadow, Shadow is not just Black Sonic. People defend characters like all the Fire Emblem characters or the Dragon Quest Heroes because to some people they look like characters already in abundance in the game already, but that they shouldn't be judged based off their Initial Apperance. This is all true

Yet Shadow kind of gets overlooked because of his Similarities in look to Sonic, despite the fact that he has alot of Design elements that are different from Sonic...and we're also talking about Shadow here, who's a hugely recognizable character anyway. It's like dismissing Luigi since he's just Green Mario, it's not that simple

Now granted, I'll admit that there is more in favor of Shadow being too similar to Sonic than the whole "Anime Sword Fighter thing" because Shadow has played like Sonic in some Sonic games. However this Same thing isn't nearly put on Tails and Knuckles, who have also played like Sonic in some Sonic games too. It's kind of Hypocritical I would say

Shadow as an echo still could theoretically work, but I Heavily doubt that Shadow would just be an echo, and he's much more likely to be his own character, for these reasons

-Sega has to approve of a Shadow echo. While Shadow has played like Sonic in some games, that doesn't mean the conversion will work to Smash. Sonic is a different type of game from Smash. Even in the games where Shadow plays like Sonic, either in Cutscenes or Boss Fights, He heavily shows off his Chaos powers, and he's the only character currently that shows off Chaos abilities these days. there's also the fact that Shadow's Personality does not jive with the type of moves Sonic does, so I doubt they want him to be an echo

-Shadow has enough Merit to be his own character. He's an Iconic, Popular character both within his series and in Smash requests, and he's still heavily relevant to his Franchise as well, With Sonic being relevant to gaming despite all the hiccups in the series. He's also has shown off abilities that would separate him not just from Sonic, but also from the rest of the cast

I stress the merit thing because people have in the past said that Shadow would only be an echo because Dark Samus was one, despite how Dark Samus does not have as much merit to join Smash on her own compared to Shadow

-Even with minimal changes, Shadow would probably have to be balanced around the rest of the cast because of how Sonic's Moveset is. Sonic's Moveset is heavily votatile and even Small changes can drastically change the balance of the character. giving a character like Sonic a counter that slows down time would Heavily change how you fight against Shadow as an echo.

-Plus, with how people say Sonic's Moveset is underwhelming, boring, or annoying to fight, I really doubt people would Really want Shadow as an echo fighter of Sonic, because I don't think people want a copy of a moveset that has been as critized as Sonic's

Now whether you believe Shadow has a chance or not is up to you. I know most people here really don't think Shadow has a shot. I actually believe I'm the only one here that's actively predicting him in Fighter Pass 2, and I think that's also shared on other websites like Gamefaqs and Discord. I only know like one other person that believes Shadow will be in Fighter Pass 2.

I'm just giving my side of everything

I don't disagree that Shadow could or should be his own character, but the same could be said for pretty much all of the echoes currently in Ultimate. They all have the potential to be their own character, but were chosen mostly because it was easy to squeeze them onto an existing character. For Shadow's case specifically, it helps that Sonic's moveset is pretty bare bones, mostly just running fast and spin dashing - both things that Shadow also does. Shadow is obviously more popular than characters like Dark Samus, but the point still stands.

 

[SharkLord]

You just raised a point there. If they're lazy enough to keep Chrom as Robin's FS, they would probably keep an existing character as assist trophy if the assist theoretically got promoted to be playable. Imagine be playing as Shadow to then summon Shadow AT from the assist trophy case. WEIRD. I don't think that they would replace the promoted AT with some other character (or even remove the promoted character from the AT list). That's one of the reasons i think AT promotion to DLC will never happen. Next title, maybe.

I mean the Mii Costumes let us have Bomberman summoning Bomberman to bomb the %$#@ out of Bomberman so...

 

[PeridotGX]

Is there seriously a person on earth who would be like

(Zero AT revealed)

Person: oh well, maybe next game

(Zero added as playable)

Person: WHAT THE **** SAKURAI WHY DID YOU WASTE A SLOT ON ZERO HE'S ALREADY AN AT

 

[Louie G.]

Assist Trophy promotion would be bound to make a lot of people excited for breaking down another barrier commonly seen as unsurmountable. So I doubt we'd see any real disappointment over that just because the character is "in the game" already.

Really just boils down to who that promotion is, because yeah... if it's not a select handful of characters I could see there being backlash for getting in "over" Waluigi, Isaac, Shadow etc. I think most reasonable people wouldn't really care very much though and would look at that character for their own merits.

 

[Pillow]

Is there seriously a person on earth who would be like

(Zero AT revealed)

Person: oh well, maybe next game

(Zero added as playable)

Person: WHAT THE **** SAKURAI WHY DID YOU WASTE A SLOT ON ZERO HE'S ALREADY AN AT

It wouldn't be Zero fans complaining, it'd be the Zero haters complaining and giving that reasoning. It's true they'd be upset regardless for not getting what they wanted, but this gives them slightly more justification.

 

[Idon]

Is there seriously a person on earth who would be like

(Zero AT revealed)

Person: oh well, maybe next game

(Zero added as playable)

Person: WHAT THE **** SAKURAI WHY DID YOU WASTE A SLOT ON ZERO HE'S ALREADY AN AT

Nah, but that's certainly the reaction I expect if Lyn got a promotion.
In which case the reaction to her by her fans would probably be along the lines of this:


So like all things... it depends.

 

[CannonStreak]

Speaking of Assist Trophy upgrades, how is this for an Assist Trophy upgrade?

Spoiler

Starfy.

Spoiler

I am kidding, of course!

 

[SharkLord]

It wouldn't be Zero fans complaining, it'd be the Zero haters complaining and giving that reasoning. It's true they'd be upset regardless for not getting what they wanted, but this gives them slightly more justification.

...I don't think I've ever seen someone hate on Zero actually. Don't speak ill of the dead, I suppose (And no, I'm not talking about the trophies and costumes...)

 

[Idon]

Speaking of Assist Trophy upgrades, how is this for an Assist Trophy upgrade?

Spoiler

Starfy.

Spoiler

I am kidding, of course!

Hey now there's some Starfy fans out there.
Maybe not enough to justify a Smash inclusion, but they'd certainly be happy.

 

[CannonStreak]

Hey now there's some Starfy fans out there.
Maybe not enough to justify a Smash inclusion, but they'd certainly be happy.

I wasn't trying to offend Starfy fans. I was saying just kidding because I thought there would be people would not like the idea or take it seriously, due to his being able to be smacked around before Smash Bros. Ultimate. That is all.

 

[Pillow]

...I don't think I've ever seen someone hate on Zero actually. Don't speak ill of the dead, I suppose (And no, I'm not talking about the trophies and costumes...)

Well (imo) he's a generally pretty likeable character with a solid and recognizable design. But I think the same of Byleth and Steve, so hey, what do I know? Smash fans are always very passionate about the characters they do support, so for many people - any character they didn't actively want in the game can be targeted for "stealing" the spot. Objectively everyone knows this reasoning is stupid, but nothing can stop people from feeling how they feel.

I wasn't trying to offend Starfy fans. I was saying just kidding because I thought there would be people would not like the idea or take it seriously, due to his being able to be smacked around before Smash Bros. Ultimate. That is all.

I was unironically a huge supporter of Starfy before Smash 4, but I think that the more Smash starts to include more and more big name characters, the more out of place these more niche characters from less popular 1st parties start to feel. Assist trophies are actually the perfect places for characters like this now.

 

[7NATOR]

It wouldn't be Zero fans complaining, it'd be the Zero haters complaining and giving that reasoning. It's true they'd be upset regardless for not getting what they wanted, but this gives them slightly more justification.

The haters of a Character should not have more power than the lovers of the character

If Zero does not get in, it's not because the haters of Zero compelled Nintendo not to give him a shot, but because of love for other sides and other characters or something like that

But fans of a character should not be punished because of the haters of a character and their reactions, and I think Nintendo followed this philosophy when they added Byleth and also Steve

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

The Kirby series current director, Shinya Kumazaki would be great. He's given the Kirby series lots of fan service and I think he could do well with Smash Bros.

Wish Granted, now only Kirby directors can make Smash games.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I wasn't trying to offend Starfy fans. I was saying just kidding because I thought there would be people would not like the idea or take it seriously, due to his being able to be smacked around before Smash Bros. Ultimate. That is all.

I'm sure some will be surprised that he's not a joke character as a fighter. Plus, do you think everyone who plays Kirby because he's cute has played his games before?

 

[CannonStreak]

I'm sure some will be surprised that he's not a joke character as a fighter. Plus, do you think everyone who plays Kirby because he's cute has played his games before?

I know there are people out there who think would think that. Maybe I would be surprised too.

For your question, I am sure the answer is no.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hey now there's some Starfy fans out there.
Maybe not enough to justify a Smash inclusion, but they'd certainly be happy.

Yeah, all five of them

 

[SharkLord]

Well (imo) he's a generally pretty likeable character with a solid and recognizable design. But I think the same of Byleth and Steve, so hey, what do I know? Smash fans are always very passionate about the characters they do support, so for many people - any character they didn't actively want in the game can be targeted for "stealing" the spot. Objectively everyone knows this reasoning is stupid, but nothing can stop people from feeling how they feel.

Honestly, that only really applies to the vocal minority. The "hardcore" fanbase who regularly speculates and gets passionate makes up a very small fraction of the fanbase, and the ones who throw a fit over characters an even smaller fraction. The bulk of the players are just casual fans who'll get characters because it's Smash and/or they think the new character is cool. Nintendo won't care about the haters and loudmouths when there's that many more people who'll get the fighter anyways.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The haters of a Character should not have more power than the lovers of the character

Tell that to the Smash fanbase whenever a Fire Emblem character is announced and you'll be killed on sight

 

[Pillow]

The haters of a Character should not have more power than the lovers of the character

If Zero does not get in, it's not because the haters of Zero compelled Nintendo not to give him a shot, but because of love for other sides and other characters or something like that

But fans of a character should not be punished because of the haters of a character and their reactions, and I think Nintendo followed this philosophy when they added Byleth and also Steve

This is a nice sentiment that I agree with to an extent. But ultimately, while Nintendo and specifically Sakurai obviously support the fans passion, it's largely because it is a good business decision to do so. Minecraft is Minecraft and FE has always been the franchise that uses smash to advertise its most recent main games the most.

A lot of the assist trophies would also make bank as playable characters, but my gut tells me that they'd earn less than some other characters that haven't appeared in the game yet.

Honestly, that only really applies to the vocal minority. The "hardcore" fanbase who regularly speculates and gets passionate makes up a very small fraction of the fanbase, and the ones who throw a fit over characters an even smaller fraction. The bulk of the players are just casual fans who'll get characters because it's Smash and/or they think the new character is cool. Nintendo won't care about the haters and loudmouths when there's that many more people who'll get the fighter anyways.

Ehhh idk. Youtube is pretty casual, and Byleth and Steve got lots of dislikes from what I remember (Steve had way more likes than dislikes, but I'm just going by total volume).

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Yeah, all five of them

*Points Finger in Objection
*Prepares to Speak
*Can’t Think of a Counterpoint
*Sadly Puts Finger Back Down

 

[CannonStreak]

While we are talking Starfy, I honestly have nothing against him, and would like to see him playable, actually.

But I remember when he was first announced as an Assist in Brawl, and he was analyzed, for his ability to be knocked around, one analyzer said, "Stafy (his name back then), why did you even come here?!"

 

[Guynamednelson]

but my gut tells me that they'd earn less than some other characters that haven't appeared in the game yet.

Frankly we've already reached the point where it's too late for bigger bank-making characters anyway. Shall I bring up that chart again?

 

[SharkLord]

Ehhh idk. Youtube is pretty casual, and Byleth and Steve got lots of dislikes from what I remember (Steve had way more likes than dislikes, but I'm just going by total volume).

And those likes and dislikes are a drop in the ocean. Together, the responses to Byleth's reveal are over 200 thousand. SSBU has sold more than 20 million. For all the divisiveness of Byleth, they barely crack 1%. YouTube reactions barely count for anything.

 

[7NATOR]

Tell that to the Smash fanbase whenever a Fire Emblem character is announced and you'll be killed on sight

The haters can still hate, and they have a right to do so. Like even personally, I was very disappointed when Byleth was announced, but what's done is done, and they didn't pick Byleth for me, but for other people that enjoyed their character and Three Houses

I don't think they should prevent a character from getting in though. but I wouldn't tell that to the Smash fanbase right after a FE Character gets announced, it might be too soon. but perhaps shortly after.

This is a nice sentiment that I agree with to an extent. But ultimately, while Nintendo and specifically Sakurai obviously support the fans passion, it's largely because it is a good business decision to do so. Minecraft is Minecraft and FE has always been the franchise that uses smash to advertise its most recent main games the most.

A lot of the assist trophies would also make bank as playable characters, but my gut tells me that they'd earn less than some other characters that haven't appeared in the game yet.



Ehhh idk. Youtube is pretty casual, and Byleth and Steve got lots of dislikes from what I remember (Steve had way more likes than dislikes, but I'm just going by total volume).

Well to be fair, it's not just about how much the Character sells, but also what Nintendo and the Smash team had to pitch in to make the character

Like I'm sure Kratos or Goku would sell more than Waluigi or Shadow or Isaac or other Assists.. the thing is though is that how much has to go into making Kratos and Goku compared to Waluigi, Shadow, Isaac, Skull Kid, Alucard, Zero, Shovel Knight, etc

Goku has alot of rights issues that would require paying alot of Parties, and I think Sony would probably ask for alot of money for Kratos. there's also everything with conceptualizing the moveset that takes time, along with all the other content like stages, alts, music, etc.

in contrast, Working with companies like Sega, Konami, Capcom, or Nintendo themselves is much easier both in costs and conceptualizing everything and negotiations. It saves more time and more money, while still selling very well, because characters like Waluigi, Shadow, Isaac, Skull Kid, Alucard, etc are Popular, Iconic, Very requested, or a mix of the three. There's also the fact that Assist characters already have assets to re-use, so that saves more time in the end

 

[Cosmic77]

If casuals liked Byleth, then I'm not really sure if we can say there's ever been a character who casuals disliked.

Obviously Byleth has been one of, if not the most controversial characters to date. If you argue that casuals were okay with him, then you'd pretty much have to argue that casuals have liked every character who was ever added, and I don't feel like that's really accurate at all.

Given the response on Twitter and YouTube, places where more casual fans socialize, I'd say Byleth got mixed reception when he was revealed at best, though that's probably a little generous.

 

[Pillow]

And those likes and dislikes are a drop in the ocean. Together, the responses to Byleth's reveal are over 200 thousand. SSBU has sold more than 20 million. For all the divisiveness of Byleth, they barely crack 1%. YouTube reactions barely count for anything.

Yeah but the ones who buy the DLC are more likely the fans who watch the youtube videos and are still playing the game 2 years later.

Well to be fair, it's not just about how much the Character sells, but also what Nintendo and the Smash team had to pitch in to make the character

Like I'm sure Kratos or Goku would sell more than Waluigi or Shadow or Isaac or other Assists.. the thing is though is that how much has to go into making Kratos and Goku compared to Waluigi, Shadow, Isaac, Skull Kid, Alucard, Zero, Shovel Knight, etc

Goku has alot of rights issues that would require paying alot of Parties, and I think Sony would probably ask for alot of money for Kratos. there's also everything with conceptualizing the moveset that takes time, along with all the other content like stages, alts, music, etc.

in contrast, Working with companies like Sega, Konami, Capcom, or Nintendo themselves is much easier both in costs and conceptualizing everything and negotiations. It saves more time and more money, while still selling very well, because characters like Waluigi, Shadow, Isaac, Skull Kid, Alucard, etc are Popular, Iconic, Very requested, or a mix of the three. There's also the fact that Assist characters already have assets to re-use, so that saves more time in the end

Yeah that's true, but there's still a middle ground of characters that are hugely popular, don't have huge licensing issues, and are grounded in video games - mostly from those aforementioned companies (Capcom in particular) that aren't yet in Smash.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I would personally love that. Being arranged by series always made sense to me. Mario characters in the beginning, third party characters at the end. That’s the way I like it.

I have no idea. All I know is that they would need to find someone. Smash is too much of a staple at this point. Smash is the entire reason the Wii U was able to survive any longer than two years. I had three friends who owned Wii U’s solely as a “Smash machine.”

Honestly though, Sakurai’s built such a good foundation that there has to be a few developers on his team that could competently take over. Heck, if they wanted to, they could just keep updating Ulimate for the next decade. So long as they’re adding new characters and stages, people will be happy.

I honestly hate the way the characters are arranged on the CSS. It's just confusing, especially so for players who aren't huge Smash nerds so they don't know the order the characters were added in (and then, that gets messed up when echoes are next to the originals). If I had to guess, they probably did it that way so that the DLC characters would be less awkwardly-placed (we would have all Mario characters at the beginning, and then Piranha Plant way towards the bottom) but I'd honestly prefer that because you'd just be able to think, "DLC, so somewhere in the bottom two rows" and be able to find the other Mario characters far easier. I wish we at least had a few more options for how we'd like to organize the roster beyond "echoes stacked or unstacked" (which, imo is kind of a crappy option because that makes the echo fighters difficult to find)

You two might like to see my rosters. I'm pretty strict about following certain rules in the placement of characters. I plan on writing a long post justifying my choices, but I could share them early in PMs.

We're doing a project for a hypothetical Smash Ultimate sequel over in Ultimate General Discussion.

Depending on what we're doing, you can come here to let your creative juices flow.

That looks interesting. I'll probably participate. It sucks that the OP doesn't allow cutting characters.

The haters of a Character should not have more power than the lovers of the character

If Zero does not get in, it's not because the haters of Zero compelled Nintendo not to give him a shot, but because of love for other sides and other characters or something like that

But fans of a character should not be punished because of the haters of a character and their reactions, and I think Nintendo followed this philosophy when they added Byleth and also Steve

That sounds nice and everything... but Tingle (or Jonesy, et al.).

 

[N3ON]

Casuals don't generally "hate" things, because hating involves a level in investment they don't have. At worst you get apathy, or "lol that's dumb" and then they carry on with whatever else they were on about. Of course, that doesn't preclude them throwing a dislike up there.

That said, a character like Byleth is not likely to benefit from leveraging familiarity with most casuals, considering they come from Fire Emblem. It's not a casual-oriented series. So the casual reaction doesn't really provide a counterbalance to the negativity like it would with Steve. At best, it just doesn't intensify it. Though, if anything, the casuals, from my experience, also believe there's a disproportionate amount of FE, they just don't care as much as people within Smash's vocal fanbase.

 

[SharkLord]

Yeah but the ones who buy the DLC are more likely the fans who watch the youtube videos and are still playing the game 2 years later.

And in the end, the majority of the people watching the videos like almost every character. The one exception was Byleth; With everyone else, there's fifty likes for every dislike. Nintendo doesn't care about the "haters" because nine times out of ten, they're vastly outnumbered.

 

[N3ON]

Nintendo's goal with adding FE characters isn't to appeal to the widest audience possible. If it was, they wouldn't choose a character from FE. It's to put the new FE game in the forefront, and open fanbase circulation between it and Smash.

Which is funny because Smash aided in bringing FE worldwide, but it didn't really compound its success. FE was in steady decline for nearly ten years after it first made its global debut, despite appearances in Brawl and such. FE brought itself back up.

But yeah, if they don't care what Sakurai thinks about FE's volume in the game, they certainly don't care about random angry internet person. I think that's a little unfortunate, because other series could use the love Nintendo makes Smash give FE more than FE does at this point.

 

[7NATOR]

Yeah but the ones who buy the DLC are more likely the fans who watch the youtube videos and are still playing the game 2 years later.



Yeah that's true, but there's still a middle ground of characters that are hugely popular, don't have huge licensing issues, and are grounded in video games - mostly from those aforementioned companies (Capcom in particular) that aren't yet in Smash.

You're Right, but there's still everything with the conceptualizing the moveset, Stages, alts, etc

Like for example, if Nintendo and Capcom are still talking about Dante or Phoenix or whoever, but they already have a character like Tails, Eggman, Shadow, Alucard, Waluigi already conceptualized for everything and everything it's sorted out, they will just go with characters that have finished than ones they still sorting out the kinks on

when it comes to 3rd parties, Both Nintendo and whoever the company is has to agree on everything, so even after Nintendo pays whatever licensing fees there are, there's still talk of how the character will actually be implemented.

Now I do think there are times where Nintendo will priotize characters. Like I'm sure Steve was a huge priority to get everything planned out so he could be implemented in Smash because he's that big of a deal. but otherwise if they have everything sorted out, they'll probably green light that character, or perhaps save them for Smash 6, which is where I think I could your argument for Nintendo wanting to priotize characters not in Smash at all, but it's not as Black and white, because every character is different

Now Since I think Shadow is in FP2, I'll give my side on this. Sonic's 30th Anniversary is this year, and Nintendo and Sega would have known this was a thing since when FP2 was being conceptualized and was greenlit. the Anniversary of Sonic, we get new games on usually on the anniversaries, and these anniversary games have usually been some of the most Iconic games, for better (SA2, Generations) and for Worse (Sonic 06), but they at least show Sonic will be relevant in the eyes of Gamers

I think this could be part of the reason to put in Another Sonic character now, instead of saving them for Smash 6 or something like that. There's other stuff involved in this too, like perhaps there was always a plan for Another Sonic character like there was for Sephiroth, Ken, Richter in Ultimate, but it just didn't happen in Ultimate yet, and stuff like that

And as for why Shadow in particular and not Eggman, Tails, or Knuckles, I think because

-2nd Most popular character
-Head of Sonic's Team (Iizuka) favorite character
-Moveset potential, with the Chaos powers
-ability to re-use Assets from Sonic and his assist trophy (though not for echo fighter, but for easier visualization of Moveset, and easier animation since they are familiar with how Sonic animates)

But that's just me. You do you, I do me, and the others do the others

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I don't have a huge stake in whether people like or dislike whatever character, but a small part of me dies every time I read like 10 posts about how FE is tiresome.

I know it's about the series getting preferential treatment in Smash when other series don't, and that's reasonable. I'm just an old sentimental guy who likes a thing. Carry on.