Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Digital Hazard]

I'll be honest, I don't see anything with Byleth as Koei-Tecmo content. While they helped developing Three Houses, it is still from a first party series and everything in it belongs to Nintendo. I mean, any Three Houses banner in Fire Emblem Heroes doesn't includes a KT copyright like the Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE banner did with Atlus.

Same for Age of Calamity spirits honestly, only the small Guardian is an original character from it and the Kohga fight even less so as it references the Yiga Hideout from BotW.

Also, no one is crediting any Breath of the Wild content or the New Horizons spirits as Monolith Soft stuff despite that they helped development in those games. I know I'm talking of a 1st party studio, but still just an example.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Yep, that's the one. So we know Nintendo dealt with KT for Yuri, the AoC event, and Byleth's trailer.

And it may or may not mean they’ve dealt with KT for Hayabusa, playable or otherwise

 

[osby]

Honestly, I think Issac would be fine as a retro rep. Golden Sun is already older than Ice Climber was when it was added to Melee, so I don't see why it couldn't have met the age threshold to be a classic character. Hell, by the time the next Smash game is released, there's a decent shot that Dark Dawn may be older than Ice Climber was when it was added to Melee.

I disagree with Isaac being a "retro rep", on the notion that it is a fanmade term and doesn't really mean anyhing. We're not getting fighters just because they are old.

Simon is older than Ice Climbers when they were first added but it'd be silly to claim that they were added for the same reason. Ice Climbers were specifically added to have a character that stayed in NES, the console that helped to revitalize the US video game industry. R.O.B. helped to promote it overseas. Game & Watch was the earliest Nintendo video game product to gain major success, etc. They're all notable additions mostly because of the console they represent and the history behind them. They are also unusual in the sense that none of them are conventional characters.

So, yeah, Isaac is arguably already a classic character but so what? If he's ever gonna get in, it'll due to his popularity or an upcoming Golden Sun revival, not because of his age.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah Ice Climbers were pretty much the only characters included specifically for the sake of having a "retro rep". The other ones, while hailing from that era, had other specific reasons for inclusion.

 

[Koopaul]

To put time gaps in perspective, Krystal from Star Fox is older now than Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Samus, Link, Zelda, and the Ice Climbers were in Melee.

I think the reason is that after the N64, games have been very slowly evolving rather than the massive distinct jumps that they used to make.

Look at it this way. The NES era, the SNES era, and the N64 era all seem distinct. But the Gamecube and up all blur. It's easy to say NES was retro back in the Melee days, just by comparing the games we had at the time. Star Fox Adventures looked incredibly different from Super Mario Bros. But Star Fox Adventures doesn't look that much different from game we have now.

So its less about how many years have passed and more about how much game have changed. But that's just my theory on the matter.

 

[Louie G.]

Ryu is in a situation very similar to Terry, never being quite as big of a household name as someone like Megaman, while being a prominent characters of two series and the main character of one of those two series (the older one).

Glad to hear someone else point this out. Hayabusa is often pretty unfairly labeled a BIG crowd-pleasing reveal in the same way as immensely popular characters like Crash or Dante, but Hayabusa isn't really even close to the same level of overall popularity as some of the highest-ranking requests and fan picks. He's a character people expect for any number of reasons, but his hype is fairly moderate.

He's a well-liked character in his own right but not a "heavy hitter" so to speak - remove the various rumors about him and I wonder if he would be placing more along the likes of Bill Rizer or Billy & Jimmy Lee (I would probably still be anticipating Hayabusa on the basis of Koei Tecmo, though).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Its amusing to imagine how much potential rancor an Ice Climbers inclusion might get now. Whereas various older characters often come from beloved, innovative, or legacy games, (with all due respect to its fans) IC as a game wasn't even all that well loved even in its day and if not for the SSB series would be the "oh yeah, that game" of NES titles. Back then, Smash hadn't become the biggest deal yet (nor a sense that passion and significance should determine fighters) so they could get in with little more than a shrug from most fans.

Nowadays it would be like Sakurai including 1080° Snowboarding characters in Ultimate for the sake of more N64 and Gamecube representation. Certainly its not without its fandom, but there'd be some strong reactions as a result.

 

[Otoad64]

Its amusing to imagine how much potential rancor an Ice Climbers inclusion might get now. Whereas various older characters often come from beloved, innovative, or legacy games, (with all due respect to its fans) IC as a game wasn't even all that well loved even in its day and if not for the SSB series would be the "oh yeah, that game" of NES titles. Back then, Smash hadn't become the biggest deal yet (nor a sense that passion and significance should determine fighters) so they could get in with little more than a shrug from most fans.

Nowadays it would be like Sakurai including 1080° Snowboarding characters in Ultimate for the sake of more N64 and Gamecube representation Certainly its not without its fandom, but there'd be some strong reactions as a result.

a 1080 snowboarding rep would be really cool

(but seriously, it would)

 

[JOJONumber691]

Personally I'm guessing:
Low Key First Party with a Complicated Gimmick, like Min MIn
Ryu Hayabusa.
2021 Character.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah apparently Koei did the dialogue for the trailer (which make sense considering that they co-develop three houses with Intelligent systems).

So they're the ones I have to thank for "Too many swordsmen, are there?"

Great, because I laughed so hard at that. Sothis is great

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Hey yall. I lost power for 3 days, did I miss anything important?
Normally I’d read through the pages but theres like 30 of them.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Hey yall. I lost power for 3 days, did I miss anything important?
Normally I’d read through the pages but theres like 30 if them.

No idea. Feels like we talked about a bunch of things...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hey yall. I lost power for 3 days, did I miss anything important?
Normally I’d read through the pages but theres like 30 if them.

Yeah they announced Kazuma Kiryu for Smash, Sakurai seemed to hear the criticisms of cinematic final smashes, so Kiryu's final smash as doing fortnite dances while Friday Night plays in the back and random explosions happen every 5 seconds, such a bold and unique choice honestly

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hey yall. I lost power for 3 days, did I miss anything important?
Normally I’d read through the pages but theres like 30 if them.

Where you there when the "flame" stuff happened?

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Where you there when the "flame" stuff happened?

Yes, I was present for that flamewreck
...please laugh

Yeah they announced Kazuma Kiryu for Smash, Sakurai seemed to hear the criticisms of cinematic final smashes, so Kiryu's final smash as doing fortnite dances while Friday Night plays in the back and random explosions happen every 5 seconds, such a bold and unique choice honestly

The fact my brain didn’t immediately see this as sarcasm is a sign I’ve been away from the internet for too long.

 

[SharkLord]

Hey yall. I lost power for 3 days, did I miss anything important?
Normally I’d read through the pages but theres like 30 if them.

@Tougon came back from the grave to explain how the internal files don't have any patterns and can't be used to speculate. This invalidated any theories using those files, such as Voice Theory or the 16 WoL slots.

However, he also snuck in a fake codename for "Flame," as a jokey not towards Homura. 80% of everyone bought this somehow, even when we clarified multiple times that it was fake, and we spent two pages speculating on nothing.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Yes, I was present for that flamewreck
...please laugh

taps mic

clears throat

HA.

 

[Perkilator]

Yes, I was present for that flamewreck
...please laugh

Anyways, you know how people say 1st parties are better for the base game? Well, I think this can only really apply to Assist Trophies.

Because, for example, characters like Waluigi who previously had this role had their chance as playable in the base game, but...they kinda missed it by being an Assist Trophy again.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I think the reason is that after the N64, games have been very slowly evolving rather than the massive distinct jumps that they used to make.

Look at it this way. The NES era, the SNES era, and the N64 era all seem distinct. But the Gamecube and up all blur.

Speak for yourself, the GameCube era was incredibly distinct.


Because there were like, ten games.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Imagine if Pikachu's Final Smash was G-Max Volt Crash. Mechanically, It'd probably act a lot like Bahamut-ZERO's laser, but aesthetically...

dopey kaiju Pikachu intensifies
"PI"
giant lightning laser hits stage

Pichu would keep Volt Tackle since it shouldn't be removed entirely and is just as relevant to it.

 

[SNEKeater]

Glad to hear someone else point this out. Hayabusa is often pretty unfairly labeled a BIG crowd-pleasing reveal in the same way as immensely popular characters like Crash or Dante, but Hayabusa isn't really even close to the same level of overall popularity as some of the highest-ranking requests and fan picks. He's a character people expect for any number of reasons, but his hype is fairly moderate.

He's a well-liked character in his own right but not a "heavy hitter" so to speak - remove the various rumors about him and I wonder if he would be placing more along the likes of Bill Rizer or Billy & Jimmy Lee (I would probably still be anticipating Hayabusa on the basis of Koei Tecmo, though).

Personally I feel Ninja Gaiden and Hayabusa are similar to Castlevania if we speak about this. Important, influential series that never were incredibly popular or managed to be mainstream at some point (Castlevania Symphony of the Night is probably the closest thing to a mainstream game Castlevania has, for example), but everyone respects those series and their characters.

Maybe I'd place Castlevania above Ninja Gaiden in terms of expectations and hype though. I do agree Hayabusa isn't a heavy hitter but I'd definitely place him above Bill Rizer or Billy and Jimmy Lee, also because I consider Hayabusa to be more popular than those names.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yes, I was present for that flamewreck
...please laugh

The fact my brain didn’t immediately see this as sarcasm is a sign I’ve been away from the internet for too long.

Yeah sorry, that was a joke. The real final smash is that Kiryu gets a gun and anyone who's gone up against a boss with a gun in Yakuza would understandably **** themselves

 

[SharkLord]

View attachment 300143

Anyways, you know how people say 1st parties are better for the base game? Well, I think this can only really apply to Assist Trophies.

Because, for example, characters like Waluigi who previously had this role had their chance as playable in the base game, but...they kinda missed it by being an Assist Trophy again.

I think it's mainly because the majority of the popular first-parties are supporting characters, and with the DLC so far some people are worried they won't be able to fill out a full pack. While hypothetically speaking some of them can, like Bandana Dee or Dixie, it doesn't seem like they'd be given priority, especially after a large amount of third-parties. Seeing as they'd have to pay the licenses, I can see why the bulk of the DLC is third-parties; By confining them to packs, the other companies won't take up as much of the base game's profits. Still, if a first-party has enough popularity and/or something to push, like Rex, and possibly Isaac and Bandana Dee, I think they're able to break through.

 

[ahemtoday]

Honestly, I think Pichu's final smash should've been the ukelele from Pokemon Ranger.

 

[cothero]

And it may or may not mean they’ve dealt with KT for Hayabusa, playable or otherwise

Right. That dealt with KT cited by Vergeben could have been only for Yuri's inclusion, i doesn't necessarily mean we'll get a playable KT character. And honestly, i just can't see a DoA or a Dynasty Warriors character getting added. If someone from KT is going to be playable, it's definitely Hayabusa.

 

[Pillow]

Yeah they announced Kazuma Kiryu for Smash, Sakurai seemed to hear the criticisms of cinematic final smashes, so Kiryu's final smash as doing fortnite dances while Friday Night plays in the back and random explosions happen every 5 seconds, such a bold and unique choice honestly

Don't give me hope

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Yes, I was present for that flamewreck
...please laugh

Bottom Text

 

[SpectreJordan]

I feel a lot of people dismiss characters as not being "big" enough, but I'm not sure that's the case for Ryu Hayabusa. It's certainly hard to top characters like Steve or Sephiroth, who are both huge and recognizable, but they each had their own issues too. I feel being a big character is some mix of popular, legacy, and relevance, but Steve lacks the legacy of some of the other 3rd parties while Sephiroth lacked relevance sorta...I recognize FF7 remake put him back in the spotlight but I believe he hadn't shown up in a game for some time before that.

The thing is, between popularity, legacy, and relevance Sakurai seems to favor legacy the most. Megaman, the Belmonts, even Terry came from rather dormant series with tons of legacy. Ryu is in a situation very similar to Terry, never being quite as big of a household name as someone like Megaman, while being a prominent characters of two series and the main character of one of those two series (the older one).

If you're going for iconic, then yeah Chun-Li is probably the biggest name on the table left apart from maybe Lara Croft. If Western IP's were treated with the same significance then maybe i'd toss the 2 green armor FPS dudes here as well. But all those characters have their own issues that Hayabusa does not. I still feel he's the clear frontrunner for being the next "obvious" slot.

Oh, I wasn’t dismissing Hayabusa because he’s not big. I was just saying I don’t think he’d count as one of the big showstopper reveals that’s announced at E3 (or it’s replacement) or TGAs.

He’d definitely be one of the more lowkey ones like Terry. Nothing wrong with that, Terry is awesome & Hayabusa would be just as cool.

 

[cothero]

I feel a lot of people dismiss characters as not being "big" enough, but I'm not sure that's the case for Ryu Hayabusa. It's certainly hard to top characters like Steve or Sephiroth, who are both huge and recognizable, but they each had their own issues too. I feel being a big character is some mix of popular, legacy, and relevance, but Steve lacks the legacy of some of the other 3rd parties while Sephiroth lacked relevance sorta...I recognize FF7 remake put him back in the spotlight but I believe he hadn't shown up in a game for some time before that.

The thing is, between popularity, legacy, and relevance Sakurai seems to favor legacy the most. Megaman, the Belmonts, even Terry came from rather dormant series with tons of legacy. Ryu is in a situation very similar to Terry, never being quite as big of a household name as someone like Megaman, while being a prominent characters of two series and the main character of one of those two series (the older one).

If you're going for iconic, then yeah Chun-Li is probably the biggest name on the table left apart from maybe Lara Croft. If Western IP's were treated with the same significance then maybe i'd toss the 2 green armor FPS dudes here as well. But all those characters have their own issues that Hayabusa does not. I still feel he's the clear frontrunner for being the next "obvious" slot.

Hayabusa indeed deserves some respect, he's one of the oldest video game characters out there. Although i never played a NG game, i recognize him as one of the most iconic VG characters and the most iconic VG ninja alongside Scorpion and Sub-Zero (Stryder Hiryu is not a VG character). However, if we put other iconic characters on the table like Sephiroth, Master Chief or Lara Croft, he's obviously not quite as big as a name.

Those comparisons doesn't matter much at smash level, as we have seen on Sakurai's recent choices. We got some big and recognizable characters on global level like Steve and Sephiroth, and some smaller (yet important) characters like Terry as well.

 

[Pillow]

I think it's mainly because the majority of the popular first-parties are supporting characters, and with the DLC so far some people are worried they won't be able to fill out a full pack. While hypothetically speaking some of them can, like Bandana Dee or Dixie, it doesn't seem like they'd be given priority, especially after a large amount of third-parties. Seeing as they'd have to pay the licenses, I can see why the bulk of the DLC is third-parties; By confining them to packs, the other companies won't take up as much of the base game's profits. Still, if a first-party has enough popularity and/or something to push, like Rex, and possibly Isaac and Bandana Dee, I think they're able to break through.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the support characters sentiment. Despite their importance to their main series, Dixie and Bandana Dee are side characters. I don't think a 1st party dlc is unlikely, but if one does happen it's almost certain to be Rex or an 8th gen pokemon. I would've included Isaac here as he's one of the last of the Brawl Era fan picks, but I don't believe we'll ever see AT's upgraded to playable characters within the same game.

Oh, I wasn’t dismissing Hayabusa because he’s not big. I was just saying I don’t think he’d count as one of the big showstopper reveals that’s announced at E3 (or it’s replacement) or TGAs.

He’d definitely be one of the more lowkey ones like Terry. Nothing wrong with that, Terry is awesome & Hayabusa would be just as cool.

Oh I wasn't trying to call you out for being dismissive or anything, it's just kind of a sentiment i've seen floating around here generally since Sephiroth's reveal. I'd agree he likely would not be the E3 reveal if he is coming (and assuming E3 is happening), unless the other 2 unconfirmed dlc fighters are some extremely Japanese-centric picks like Reimu and Arle or something.

Hayabusa indeed deserves some respect, he's one of the oldest video game characters out there. Although i never played a NG game, i recognize him as one of the most iconic VG characters (and maybe the most iconic VG ninja alongside Scorpion and Sub-Zero). However, if we put other iconic characters in the count like Sephiroth, Master Chief or Lara Croft, he's not quite as big as a name.

Those comparisons doesn't matter much at smash level, as we have seen on Sakurai's recent choices. We got some big and recognizable characters on global level like Steve and Sephiroth, and some smaller (yet important) characters like Terry as well.

Yeah, he's definitely iconic but just less so than some of the really huge names. Fortunately for him, almost all of those huge names are already in Smash. He's not someone personally want, mostly because I feel we already got ninja character archetypes pretty well covered in smash between Shiek and Greninja, but he's definitely a character I both respect and honestly expect.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Honestly, I think Pichu's final smash should've been the ukelele from Pokemon Ranger.

How dare you! That's such a good idea, but it hurts to read, cause they'll never reference that era of Pokémon spinoffs ever again!

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I think it’s hard to compare Hayabusa to anyone in particular really? He’s like, I guess Lara, more than anyone. He’s a character that pretty much everyone knows and respects but is also a character not a lot of people have high affinity for. I mean I do because he’s been in a TON of stuff I’ve played over the years and I’ve fallen in love with him.

But it’s weird. Hayabusa probably won’t be very controversial of a choice because he just kind of makes sense but he also won’t blow peoples socks off like Dante or Crash. It’ll be a more of “oh hey that’s pretty cool” and they’ll move on.

It’s weird because I feel like altogether Hayabusa is just as recognizable as someone like Dante or Crash but he’s not as POPULAR as Dante or Crash. He’s in a very odd middle of the road appeal where pretty much everyone would be happy with him but he’s not going to be overly hype.

Personally, I’m fine with that as long as he gets in. I know he may not be the most hype choice for everyone but he is for me.

 

[Wings000]

How dare you! That's such a good idea, but it hurts to read, cause they'll never reference that era of Pokémon spinoffs ever again!

Ranger games were lowkey mega underrated. Mystery Dungeon stole the spotlight.

 

[SNEKeater]

I think it’s hard to compare Hayabusa to anyone in particular really? He’s like, I guess Lara, more than anyone. He’s a character that pretty much everyone knows and respects but is also a character not a lot of people have high affinity for. I mean I do because he’s been in a TON of stuff I’ve played over the years and I’ve fallen in love with him.

But it’s weird. Hayabusa probably won’t be very controversial of a choice because he just kind of makes sense but he also won’t blow peoples socks off like Dante or Crash. It’ll be a more of “oh hey that’s pretty cool” and they’ll move on.

It’s weird because I feel like altogether Hayabusa is just as recognizable as someone like Dante or Crash but he’s not as POPULAR as Dante or Crash. He’s in a very odd middle of the road appeal where pretty much everyone would be happy with him but he’s not going to be overly hype.

Personally, I’m fine with that as long as he gets in. I know he may not be the most hype choice for everyone but he is for me.

Yeah this reminds me of the Lara Croft discussion the other day. She's obviously super known, but it doesn't feel like she is as popular as names such as Sephiroth.

Though it doesn't mean Lara or Hayabusa aren't popular, it's just that it seems that they aren't the most popular options among fans. Which obviously is a different thing and it isn't bad.

Obviously what matters is that he would be fun and an interesting choice, and he would certainly be hype for his fans. Personally, while as of now I've barely played the NG reboot games (more because I don't have an Xbox rather than lack of interest, I must say), I'd be happy with him, he's a super solid choice. Almost any character from stylish or crazy action games is great in my book

 

[Golden Icarus]

I think it’s hard to compare Hayabusa to anyone in particular really? He’s like, I guess Lara, more than anyone. He’s a character that pretty much everyone knows and respects but is also a character not a lot of people have high affinity for. I mean I do because he’s been in a TON of stuff I’ve played over the years and I’ve fallen in love with him.

But it’s weird. Hayabusa probably won’t be very controversial of a choice because he just kind of makes sense but he also won’t blow peoples socks off like Dante or Crash. It’ll be a more of “oh hey that’s pretty cool” and they’ll move on.

It’s weird because I feel like altogether Hayabusa is just as recognizable as someone like Dante or Crash but he’s not as POPULAR as Dante or Crash. He’s in a very odd middle of the road appeal where pretty much everyone would be happy with him but he’s not going to be overly hype.

Personally, I’m fine with that as long as he gets in. I know he may not be the most hype choice for everyone but he is for me.

I think he's very similar to Simon Belmont in terms of legacy, so I imagine the reaction would be similar to him. Not a huge uproar, but a character that would still really excite a certain a group of people. And like Simon, I imagine very few people would be upset considering how recognizable he is.

 

[DarthEnderX]

(Stryder Hiryu is not a VG character).

Yes he is. The manga that came out before the game was a co-developed adaptation of the game.

That'd be like saying Star Wars is a book franchise instead of a movie franchise because the novelization of the movie came out before the movie.

 

[Icedragonadam]

So no new Nintendo news this week. So I guess the unofficial direct for Q1 hasn't started yet. I guess the week of news will begin when the Zelda Anniversary Direct happens in February.

 

[cothero]

Yes he is. The manga that came out before the game was a co-developed adaptation of the game.

That'd be like saying Star Wars is a book franchise instead of a movie franchise because the novelization of the movie came out before the movie.

Strider Hiryu (ストライダー飛竜, Sutoraidā Hiryū) is a fictional character jointly owned by Capcom and Moto Kikaku. Although primarily known as a game character, Hiryu (飛竜, "Flying Dragon") debuted in 1988 as the protagonist of a Japan-exclusive manga titled Strider Hiryu, published by Kadokawa Shoten.

First appearance	Strider Hiryu manga (1988)

Strider (1989 arcade game) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He's not a video game originated character, that's what i meant.

 

[Hinata]

Strider Hiryu (ストライダー飛竜, Sutoraidā Hiryū) is a fictional character jointly owned by Capcom and Moto Kikaku. Although primarily known as a game character, Hiryu (飛竜, "Flying Dragon") debuted in 1988 as the protagonist of a Japan-exclusive manga titled Strider Hiryu, published by Kadokawa Shoten.

First appearance	Strider Hiryu manga (1988)

Strider (1989 arcade game) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And yet, if you read further, you'll see that DarthEnder is correct here.

"According to Kouichi Yotsui, the planner of the original Strider coin-op game, the Strider Hiryu franchise was conceived as a multimedia collaboration between video game company Capcom and manga collective Moto Kikaku, the two companies having previously collaborated on the video game versions of the manga Tenchi wo Kurau. Moto Kikaku produced the manga version, while Capcom developed two separate video game versions, a coin-operated video game and a console version for the NES."

So while yes, Strider first appeared in a manga, he was always conceived as a video game character as well.

Is ROB not a video game character because his first appearance was as a toy in 1985? He didn't make an appearance on screen in a video game until 1997.

 

[cothero]

And yet, if you read further, you'll see that DarthEnder is correct here.

"According to Kouichi Yotsui, the planner of the original Strider coin-op game, the Strider Hiryu franchise was conceived as a multimedia collaboration between video game company Capcom and manga collective Moto Kikaku, the two companies having previously collaborated on the video game versions of the manga Tenchi wo Kurau. Moto Kikaku produced the manga version, while Capcom developed two separate video game versions, a coin-operated video game and a console version for the NES."

So while yes, Strider first appeared in a manga, he was always conceived as a video game character as well.

Is ROB not a video game character because his first appearance was as a toy in 1985? He didn't make an appearance on screen in a video game until 1997.

So, following your logic, Geralt of Rivia could be considered a video game characters as well.

As for ROB, he's primarily a Nintendo gaming accessory, so he had the VIP treatment when it comes to become a playable character in smash, not a character originated from a different and completely unrelated thing to video games like books or mangas.